05-03-2013 02:52 PM
Funny way to get your car destroyed...
Funny because it was just a "practice" session. When it happens on my league races (and it happened more than once at other circuits) then it's not exactly fun.
I'm sure CM has an explanation to that and it probably involves say I'm doing it wrong. :/
05-03-2013 03:53 PM
Happened to me on my league race in Hockenheim (turn 1) last sunday twice. The first time I lost my front wing completely, the second time the car was wrecked.
I've noticed these kerbs during gamescom 2012 and posted a video here in the forums. It is pretty sad that Codemasters couldn't fix this issue...
05-03-2013 06:22 PM - edited 05-03-2013 06:23 PM
I've seen and had some odd kerbage going on before, and it's quite ammusing to see unless your on the receiving end.
And I may be able to give some insight as to why the issue, and many others haven't been fixed, as this is a very good example of why. It's all to do with re-creating the issue/ bug. Try going over that kerb, 10, 20 maybe 50 times, and see if you can get that exact same result every time. The more consistent it is, the more likely it is to be fixed. If it's something that happens once in a blue moon, or is unsuccessfuly re-created, then whoever the bug was tasked to probably passed it off as fixed, or to someone else to try, who then cleared it. It's kind of a lazy way of "solving bugs", but when you have a list of about 50 and a deadline pressing by, you don't want to spend hours on 1 bug that is very difficult to happen again on a consistent basis.
However saying that, and going back to more on topic, im not 100% keen on the kerbs. Very rarely do I get thrown into the air like in the video provided, but there are a number of troublesome kerbs on the calender. Turn 7 in Monaco, and the final chicane in Barcelona are two that spring to mind. 9 times out of 10, hitting or going over the kerbs there step out the car. Whilst it may be realistic, I think it's more to do with the way the kerbs are done in the game as the kerb in Turn 7 looks like it has some geometry issues, which don't reflect real life.
05-03-2013 06:41 PM
I am not really keen on them but they are okay-ish, I guess.Although sometimes they take away waaay to much traction/cause oversteer that what they do in real life. If anything my biggest problem with kerbing is that not severe enough at some places like the chicanes in Monza (really high kerbs used in real life to take away the possibility of corner cutting) or the last corner in Korea.
It's the bumps that annoy me much more. Sometimes placed at the wrong place, always causing absurd behavior of the car. In T14 in India (the right hander at the start of sector 3) you can literally get the front tyres off the ground.
05-03-2013 09:05 PM
Sorry Yorkie, but I cannot agree.
Sure there are bugs which are quite obvious and easy to reproduce. It is part of the manufacturing process to get rid of these bugs first. And there are bugs which are not that easy to find. These bugs may occur way more often if you increase the number of people actually playing the game.
In our league race about 70% of the drivers jumped over the curb in turn 1 at Hockenheim atleast once. Two Players had to retire because of this bug (a video can be found in our race reports). In our training you could easily reproduce these situations. Cutting the Corner just a little bit without getting the "corner cutting warning" could let yout fly 1 out of 10 times. The devs have a better chance than we have to analyse what went wrong with the car in those scenes...
I really believe that there is something wrong deep down in the code which is responsible for the suspension physics. There are lots of situations where the car does not behave like a real one. For example if you try to go over the inner kerbs in Turn 4, at Bahrain. the whole front end of your car bounces sideways like a rubberball. The same thing happens at Spa if you try to attack the inner kerbs of Blanchimont. Another thing is the fact that you actually surf above kerbs on different tracks. They behave like a rail if 50% of your car is above these kerbs. Quite annoying! (e.g. Blanchimont outer kerb). In fact this is a bug that occured in last years version!
Last year we had quite a similar issue with "invisibile walls" all over the tracks. There are lots of physics related bugs which became really frustrating when you play this game nearly every day and if you try to prepare yourself for league races. In my opionion these are the little details which make F1 2012 even worse than F1 2011...
Let's hope the devs get it right with F1 2013!
05-03-2013 10:44 PM
I forgot about turn 1 in Germany, and also spa! And your post actually made me realise why it would be happening, and it goes alongside my previous post with the bug fixing.
Your kind of right, in the way of coding and the way the car behaves over kerbs and what not. I get the "on rail" effect quite a bit, especially in Abu Dhabi. It's more about the geometry and collision of the kerbs. Take turn 1 of Hockenheim as an example. Im not 100% sure if this was the way that they made the tracks, but seeing how the cars react when hitting curbs in this way, and how I've seen it in other games and actually working on a game with similar problems, it makes sense. The concrete of the track itself, the inner green concrete of the kerb (providing it's not raised) and the grass is more than likely all one flat plane, which probably has a single collision mesh that is flat but shaped to fit the track and the grass within the barriers. The actual rumble strip kerb itself that is on the inside of the corner, will be it's own seperate model, with it's own collision modelled to match the shape and bumps of the kerb. This will then be placed ontop of the track in the correct position, to give us the kerb on the inside of the corner.
We all know that kerbs are raised off the track, sloping up at an angle before leveling out and then dropping off down the behind the kerb. The collision will match that, and if collision of a model is intersecting or sticking out from collision of something else, it can create for some odd physics...hence what we're seeing on Turn 1 at Hockenheim. So as you turn into the corner, cutting across the kerb on the first part, the wheel runs over as intended, but as theres no raised section of the kerb further inside so the wheel drops (if it has time) down to the collision of the plane below it, making contact with the flat plane again. But then it hits the 2nd part of the curb past the apex of the corner, and as it's the back of the kerb, the collision there isn't going to be anywhere near as smooth. So the wheel then hits that at speed forcing it to bounce off and spring the front of the car in the air, giving the result that many of us experience when cutting over that kerb.
To put a little more simple, the more you cut over the kerb, the more likely your going to hit the collision at the back which will send the cars nose into the air. If you barely cut the kerb, then the wheel won't have time to drop down and hit the back of the collision mesh. Now the modellers will want to replicate the kerbs on the tracks as close to real life as possible, and the programmers will want the cars to handle in a realistic but fun arcadey way. So theres immediately a conflict there in fixing the bug. The programmers won't want to change the code as it will change the handling of the cars in general, and the modellers will want to keep the kerbs to look real, and have the collision as close as possible whilst also optimising polygons. Obviously the higher the kerb, and the steeper it is, the bigger impact it's going to have on the car making it bounce more.
So the devs probably left it as it is, and hoped that people don't quite cut the corner as much. It's not good when you look at it from our perspective, but theres not a lot else that can be done to prevent it without making the car float above parts of the track with added collision mesh that doesn't match models making it look silly, especially at slow speeds.
Hopefully what I said kind of made sense, if not then I can draw up some quick pics to help explain. But thinking about it, it's a problem that is probably going to haunt gaming for a while, or at least until physics become more advanced and can fully simulate the real world in every possible calculation...which it's kind of doing anyway, just not as accurately.
06-03-2013 12:51 AM - edited 06-03-2013 12:56 AM
I totally get your point. Sure there must be a design flaw of the geometry/shape of the curbs. Therefore the game detects a collision and the implemented physics/suspension model trys to handle these information correctly. As a consequence the car takes off.
If you think a little further, it all comes down to "collisions". Steve Hood has stated in different interviews before the release of F1 2012 that the new physics guy implemented a new suspension model in which the tyres are actually grounded the first time in codemasters f1 franchise history. It gave them more opportunities e.g. implementing tyre squeeze sounds properly. Therefore the car has to interact with the environment (curbs etc.) and especially the surface of the track. So there is a constant "collision" with the tarmac.
The implemented physics model hast to handle information about friction etc. while the suspension/handling model interprets user inputs and directly interacts with the implemented physics.
Getting these things right is crucial for a racing game and gives the devs a lot of additional possibilities. The Output you may get can be used for force feedback, tyre wear etc. Sure, you need a lot of processing power to emulate the real word, even if you scale your applied physics down. Due to the limitations of the current console generation (memory!), Codemasters is forced to go a step backward and actually replace calculated physics with estimated physics. Here i think is where the game lacks realism. As i stated before, the suspension sometimes does not work correctly, you get the feeling that your car has a 1 liter engine,fwd and about 60hp because you cannot generate any kind of power oversteer, especially when accelerating out of a corner etc....I could extend this with more stuff but this would kinda go off topic...
Race Pro (console version of Race 07) had pretty impressive physics for a console game. It comes to Codemasters wether they want to develop their franchise towards a mass market compatible "F1-look-alike mario kart" (sarcasm!!!) or try to build an user friendly sim game in which you can scale the level of simulation by activating driving aids (gamepad steering assist have to be optional driving aid!).
As the owner of germany's most active f1 2012 league portal, I certainly know which way I would prefer. I will definately buy F1 2013 and I will spend lots of additional hours on F1 2012, but I'm sure that my own expectations on Codemasters' F1 Franchise may lead me to PC simracing in the future....
06-03-2013 04:52 AM
The places where those problems happen are very well known, I had this problem on all these places you guys mentioned.
Seems to be something wrong on the edge of the kerbs at some places.
Anyway, I just hope they can test the game a lot before release (wish we had beta).. And if after all the handling/physics updates for the next game they still have this bug, I guess it's not that hard to work on it to fix as it sounds... This bug is "hard" to reproduce, someone said... Hard for us just playing the game, and not that hard anyway... But for devs with the right tools to observe the forces involved and everything (telemetry/extra debug info) it's not so hard to figure out why it's happening.
We did our part, we told them it's something important and very annoying and gave the videos so they can start checking those Kerbs... Good luck Codemasters