Give rogue's proper sneak attacks

[Sarezar]

i was hoping that rogues will get their proper sneak attacks for both PvP and PvE. unfortunately they didn't.

honestly i don't understand why. rogues do so little damage when aggro is on them. and in PnP, the first thing a rogue will do before attacking, is to go/tumble to a flanking position, so he can sneak attack.

of course doing so provokes an attack of opportunity in PnP, something that does not happen in DDO. but in DDO, a rogue will loose -4 to attack bonus (it's rare for a rogue to have spring attack) if he moves and attacks, or loose many hits if he only moves. so there is a big penalty here too for trying to get a good flanking bonus.

[kruk]

Sarezar - that only means that you played PnP incorrectly
In PnP there is no front/back of a char. You dont do sneak attack for attacking from behind. You get flanking bonus for attacking from another side then other char. It's fully described (with pictures) in Song and Silence.

[silencerius]

Hmm don't know what you exactly mean, but AFAIK in DDO sneak attacks are in the favor of the rogue when compared to PNP.

In DDO the rogue doesn't have to get a flanking position (meaning directly opposite from the main attacker of the monster and in a straight line). He just has to make sure he doesn't have aggro and he could be standing directly on the front of the mob and get SA. If he gets aggro then no SA but that's how it works in PNP as well.

i strongly think that rogues should sneak attack when the monster looses dexterity bonus to AC, and when the rogue flanks his opponent.

That is already the case in DDO.

it's a joke to have aggro on you on a held monster, and not do your 6d6 damage.

That's wrong, every time a monster is helpless rogues get full sneak attacks whether they have aggro or not.

[Velris]

Originally Posted by Sarezar

it's a joke to have aggro on you on a held monster, and not do your 6d6 damage.

even if it is not true for held monster, a dancing mob that is aware of you avoid sneak attack (wonder how), same for stunned mob with soundburst or Holy Smite.
and that is ridiculous.

[Sarezar]

Originally Posted by kruk

Sarezar - that only means that you played PnP incorrectly
In PnP there is no front/back of a char. You dont do sneak attack for attacking from behind. You get flanking bonus for attacking from another side then other char. It's fully described (with pictures) in Song and Silence.

u didn't read my post correctly my friend. i am talking about flanking bonus cause when a rogue flanks, he sneak attacks. check the PH again.

Originally Posted by silencerius

Hmm don't know what you exactly mean, but AFAIK in DDO sneak attacks are in the favor of the rogue when compared to PNP.
In DDO the rogue doesn't have to get a flanking position (meaning directly opposite from the main attacker of the monster and in a straight line). He just has to make sure he doesn't have aggro and he could be standing directly on the front of the mob and get SA. If he gets aggro then no SA but that's how it works in PNP as well.

no this isn't favour for me. if a rogue attacks once he almost immedietly gets aggro. getting 1 or 2 good hits isn't what i call in favour. in PnP once u get in flanking position u get sneak attack everytime.

Originally Posted by silencerious

That is already the case in DDO.

no it isn't. there is no ''loosing dex bonus to ac" in ddo. no monster gets sneak attack when held or prone or in whichever case it looses his dex bonus to ac (i don't recall now which are those cases in the book)

Originally Posted by silencerious

That's wrong, every time a monster is helpless rogues get full sneak attacks whether they have aggro or not.

no you are wrong, they don't. check that again.

[silencerius]

Originally Posted by Sarezar

u didn't read my post correctly my friend. i am talking about flanking bonus cause when a rogue flanks, he sneak attacks. check the PH again.

Yes that applies in DDO too, but it only gets better, rogues don't even have to be in a flanking position, they just have to make sure they don't have aggro.

Originally Posted by Sarezar

no this isn't favour for me. if a rogue attacks once he almost immedietly gets aggro. getting 1 or 2 good hits isn't what i call in favour.

If you can't get aggro off of you you should blame your fighters for not hitting hard enough But rogues rule anyways so don't blame them at all

Originally Posted by Sarezar

in PnP once u get in flanking position u get sneak attack everytime.

Yes but in PNP you cannot move around someone freely and with such an ease (say Attacks of Opportunity or losing your 2nd/3rd attack due to movement etc), imagine how easy it would be in DDO to hit *every time* with SA. This has been balanced out to the very simple: You qualify for SA whenever the monster doesn't have its attention or aggro on you.

Also mind that in PNP rogues cannot SA monsters that are too big for them, halfling rogues shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack Hill Giants, and every humanoid rogue shouldn't be able to sneak attack Velah or some huge Stom Giant.

Originally Posted by Sarezar

no it isn't. there is no ''loosing dex bonus to ac" in ddo. no monster gets sneak attack when held or prone or in whichever case it looses his dex bonus to ac (i don't recall now which are those cases in the book)

Originally Posted by Sarezar

no you are wrong, they don't. check that again.

Sorry but I'm not wrong. Rogues get their SAs whenever a mob is considered Helpless by any means (either held, flesh to stoned or one of their stats reduced to zero or whatever).

Here's some proof:

I went into Relic with my rogue and made the 2 guarding Duergars at the start helpless by weakening them:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1...ot00110qf4.jpg

Then I just attacked them normally and killed them, getting full SAs as usual. Notice in the first pic that I'm starting to have SAs just after I've started scoring criticals on every attack (which means their STR is 0 and they are helpless):

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4...ot00109yy9.jpg

After that I entered a quest and used a Hold Monster scroll to Hold a random monster:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/359...ot00111hx7.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8...ot00113lc8.jpg

As you see I still get full SAs when the Human Warrior is held, and obviously the aggro is on me since I'm all alone, and in I'm in no flanking position.


Mind that the Prone status does not deny someone from his Dexterity bonus to AC:

Originally Posted by SRD

Prone
The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Otto's also does not deny dexterity bonus from AC (there's no reason as to why someone dancing cannot try and dodge something coming to his way).

even if it is not true for held monster, a dancing mob that is aware of you avoid sneak attack (wonder how), same for stunned mob with soundburst or Holy Smite.

I haven't tested Holy Smite but rogues get their SAs from Soundburst and on top of that even when the monster is blinded (loses his DEX bonus to AC in PNP) so there's no problem there either. So as you see SAs apply seemingly everytime someone should be denied from his DEX bonus to AC (helpless, blinded, stunned etc)

To close with, I stand by my case and personal opinion, there's nothing wrong with sneak attacks in DDO, if anything they are in favour of the player when compared to PNP.

PS: You mentioned PVP, you do know that in PVP rogues get SAs without even having someone take aggro for them? All they have to do is stand behind their target and they get SAs and flanking bonus. Actually they don't even have to be directly behind, anything in the radius of 180 to 360 degrees will do.

[Sarezar]

Originally Posted by silencerius

Yes that applies in DDO too, but it only gets better, rogues don't even have to be in a flanking position, they just have to make sure they don't have aggro.

that confines rogues to a very particular stykle of play, which is attack everything 1 or 2 times till the aggro has changed to someone else again.

Originally Posted by silencerius

If you can't get aggro off of you you should blame your fighters for not hitting hard enough But rogues rule anyways so don't blame them at all

i won't even consider answering to such a comment

Originally Posted by silencerius

Yes but in PNP you cannot move around someone freely and with such an ease (say Attacks of Opportunity or losing your 2nd/3rd attack due to movement etc), imagine how easy it would be in DDO to hit *every time* with SA. This has been balanced out to the very simple: You qualify for SA whenever the monster doesn't have its attention or aggro on you.

rogues in PnP can very easily get flanking position with Tumble. the DC is only 15. that's why i said everything that a rogue does at first is go/tumble to a flanking position, in order to take advantage of his SA.

Originally Posted by silencerius

Also mind that in PNP rogues cannot SA monsters that are too big for them, halfling rogues shouldn't be able to Sneak Attack Hill Giants, and every humanoid rogue shouldn't be able to sneak attack Velah or some huge Stom Giant.

this could be the case for DDO ofc. i never said SA everything just by flanking

Originally Posted by silencerius

Sorry but I'm not wrong. Rogues get their SAs whenever a mob is considered Helpless by any means (either held, flesh to stoned or one of their stats reduced to zero or whatever).

Here's some proof:

I went into Relic with my rogue and made the 2 guarding Duergars at the start helpless by weakening them:

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/1...ot00110qf4.jpg

Then I just attacked them normally and killed them, getting full SAs as usual. Notice in the first pic that I'm starting to have SAs just after I've started scoring criticals on every attack (which means their STR is 0 and they are helpless):

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4...ot00109yy9.jpg

After that I entered a quest and used a Hold Monster scroll to Hold a random monster:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/359...ot00111hx7.jpg

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8...ot00113lc8.jpg

As you see I still get full SAs when the Human Warrior is held, and obviously the aggro is on me since I'm all alone, and in I'm in no flanking position.

your screenshots clearly show that i am wrong, so thank you for correcting me here. i could swear that was not the case, but then again i only play a couple of hours per week with my rogue and never paid enough attention to it.

Originally Posted by silencerius

Mind that the Prone status does not deny someone from his Dexterity bonus to AC:

that's why when i mentioned prone i said i don't remember which cases deny dex bonus to AC in the book.

Originally Posted by silencerius

PS: You mentioned PVP, you do know that in PVP rogues get SAs without even having someone take aggro for them? All they have to do is stand behind their target and they get SAs and flanking bonus. Actually they don't even have to be directly behind, anything in the radius of 180 to 360 degrees will do.

actually i have seen that whenever he gets flanking +2 bonus to attack, he does get sneak attack. this is correct for me. i think it's hard to implement "squares" in a real time combat game. so even if u r not exactly opposite, u could claim constant movement for gaining that bonus.

i respect your opinion, but i stronlgy insist that i would prefer to have SA when rogues flank in PvE. i don't think that would be unbalancing, cause rogues at this point are one step lower in attacking/damaging/killing.
ofc an excellent rogue player could do the trick, but this is not balance, when the average tank only right clicks.


PS. i corrected my OP, and removed my suggestions on Helpless monsters.