The biggest flaws with RK

[Frodina]

Here are some things I personally dislikes about the RK:
- Advanced skills: we dont really have many. We have pretty basic damage or healing/hot skills, and attunement. But thats not very advanced.
- DPS: we dont outdamage hunters in DPS, and yet they have way more survivability than us.
- DPS while healing: minstrels easily outdamages us if we focus on healing, and they also outheal us at the same time.
- AoE: as in we hardly have any. Who heard of a class cannon who cant do any serious damage with AoE? Just about every class in the game outdamages us in AoE.
- Range: we are ranged DPS, but still have really short range on most of our DPS skill (20m for storm skills).
- Attunement: the idea is good, but there has to be a faster way to reset it than the current 3 second cast skill. If you solo and discover you need to heal, you will be long dead before you manage to switch to healing attunements.
- No panic skills. We can take 3 equal level mobs at the same provided we start the fight right. But if we fight 2 and a third walks in, its often time to release (stun on cooldown, etc). If any class needed some sort of panic skill, its the RK.
- Lack of utility skills: where are all the fun skills. If this is as close to a mage we get in LOTRO, I want more mage skills (invisibility, teleports, lots of buffs, darkvision, mind controls, and so on).

RK feels like a hybrid of a hybrid. We can do hybrid DPS or hybrid healing, but unlike a normal hybrid we cant do it at the same time. Compare this to other hybrids in other MMOs, like the ArchMage in WAR, who can both heal and do DPS at the same time, and do it fairly well.

If we where a hybrid, we should be able to heal and DPS at the same time, and if we where a class cannon, we should be best DPSers (best damage, longest range, best AoE most DPS skill and so on).

Right now, I dont know what RK are. They are fun to play, but I dont see their role in groups, and in solo there are much better and stronger classes to play.

[WebbyWebbyWebby]

[QUOTE=Frodina]Here are some things I personally dislikes about the RK:
- Advanced skills: we dont really have many. We have pretty basic damage or healing/hot skills, and attunement. But thats not very advanced.

Originally Posted by Frodina

- DPS: we dont outdamage hunters in DPS, and yet they have way more survivability than us.

We are not supposed to outdamage hunters or have more survivability, looking at reports from RK's in the 50's DPS is probably second to the hunter

Originally Posted by Frodina

- DPS while healing: minstrels easily outdamages us if we focus on healing, and they also outheal us at the same time.

Minstrels are the main healers we are not!! Of course they are going to outdamage us because we are healing at the time and not attuned for damage

Originally Posted by Frodina

- AoE: as in we hardly have any. Who heard of a class cannon who cant do any serious damage with AoE? Just about every class in the game outdamages us in AoE.

We have plenty of AOE skills: Flurry of Words, Frozen Epilogue, Scathing Mockery, Writ of Cold and Armour of Storm changes to surrounding damage when using a fire rune stone

Originally Posted by Frodina

- Range: we are ranged DPS, but still have really short range on most of our DPS skill (20m for storm skills).

We are not hunters!! Some of our skills have a longer range than others

Originally Posted by Frodina

- Attunement: the idea is good, but there has to be a faster way to reset it than the current 3 second cast skill. If you solo and discover you need to heal, you will be long dead before you manage to switch to healing attunements.

Steady hands legendary trait to reset the balance and using your neutral skills + Hots to switch attunement, practise it. I can switch to healing attunement when I need to, I just have to be carefull what I pull. We are not Minstrels who can drop out of WS in a tic, we have to plan what we do and play SMART.

Originally Posted by Frodina

- No panic skills. We can take 3 equal level mobs at the same provided we start the fight right. But if we fight 2 and a third walks in, its often time to release (stun on cooldown, etc). If any class needed some sort of panic skill, its the RK.

You have those moments on any class, you will get respawns anywhere, I was soloing the Drake Egg quest in North downs (Fellowship quest), I was taking on 3 mobs at a time, I was having worms re-spawn and attack me, play smart, switch to healing, use armour of the storm, shocking touch, kite etc... there are ways to deal with those situations.

Originally Posted by Frodina

- Lack of utility skills: where are all the fun skills. If this is as close to a mage we get in LOTRO, I want more mage skills (invisibility, teleports, lots of buffs, darkvision, mind controls, and so on).

It's NOT a mage it's a RuneKeeper play the class for what it is and not what you think it should be.

Originally Posted by Frodina

RK feels like a hybrid of a hybrid. We can do hybrid DPS or hybrid healing, but unlike a normal hybrid we cant do it at the same time. Compare this to other hybrids in other MMOs, like the ArchMage in WAR, who can both heal and do DPS at the same time, and do it fairly well

If we where a hybrid, we should be able to heal and DPS at the same time, and if we where a class cannon, we should be best DPSers (best damage, longest range, best AoE most DPS skill and so on).

Right now, I dont know what RK are. They are fun to play, but I dont see their role in groups, and in solo there are much better and stronger classes to play.

Dont' see there role in groups?! /SIGH. Runekeepers shine in groups, extremely capable healer to backup a fellowship with a Mincer, can do the job when required as primary healer (but it's tough) and can do really nice DPS and debuffs. Look at the high level utility skills you get.

As for you comments on DPS...I have done some spars against a lvl 54 hunter to test my damage output, I was lvl 28 at the time and my other buddy on his 28 hunter did the same after me, I was out DPSing the 28 hunter EASILY, that will obviously change at higher lvls as hunters are always meant to be the real high damage output class.

Don't expect the RK to be some super duper DPS'ing class which can survive anything, they are not superman! Examine the class fully, look at ALL your skills and try them out, see what they do etc... if you don't like the class, don't play it.

[Erhnam]

Originally Posted by Frodina

Here are some things I personally dislikes about the RK:
- Advanced skills: we dont really have many. We have pretty basic damage or healing/hot skills, and attunement. But thats not very advanced.

Now how to play and mantein our various hots, agro, and power usage, is not very easy. Anyway, pewpewpew is always easy in every game

- DPS: we dont outdamage hunters in DPS, and yet they have way more survivability than us.

Of course. But we outheal them, and we outdamage them in aoe terms. Hunters are the kings of single target damage

- DPS while healing: minstrels easily outdamages us if we focus on healing, and they also outheal us at the same time.

They outheal us. Of course, they are primary healers. There is no way a healing minstrel can outdamage me even when fully green attuned.

- AoE: as in we hardly have any. Who heard of a class cannon who cant do any serious damage with AoE? Just about every class in the game outdamages us in AoE.

LOL. No one can even come close to us in aoe damage, except champs, who of course outdamage us in aoe terms. And we still outdamage them in single or two target nuking

- Range: we are ranged DPS, but still have really short range on most of our DPS skill (20m for storm skills).

And 25 for fire skills. Thats pretty good range imho. Far apart of aoe

- Attunement: the idea is good, but there has to be a faster way to reset it than the current 3 second cast skill. If you solo and discover you need to heal, you will be long dead before you manage to switch to healing attunements.

Two words: Advanced class. If you solo, you must be very aware of when will you need to heal. And learn to survive while red attuned. Thats why we are an advanced class. We are not a class everyone can play

- No panic skills. We can take 3 equal level mobs at the same provided we start the fight right. But if we fight 2 and a third walks in, its often time to release (stun on cooldown, etc). If any class needed some sort of panic skill, its the RK.

Again, advanced class. We have a few mini panic skills. Armour of lighting/frost, aoe slow, aoe mezz, stun, mezz, a pet that can handle 4-5 attacks saving us some time... If you want serious panic skill, pick burglar

- Lack of utility skills: where are all the fun skills. If this is as close to a mage we get in LOTRO, I want more mage skills (invisibility, teleports, lots of buffs, darkvision, mind controls, and so on).

WoW -> That way.
We have a few buffs. "You shall not fall.." are pretty good skills. We have a sort of incombat rez. Learn to use them, learn to love them

RK feels like a hybrid of a hybrid. We can do hybrid DPS or hybrid healing, but unlike a normal hybrid we cant do it at the same time. Compare this to other hybrids in other MMOs, like the ArchMage in WAR, who can both heal and do DPS at the same time, and do it fairly well.

This is not WAR. We can do some serious healing, or some serious dps. Of course, we cannot do both at the same time. That would be really OP. But with some neutral skills and SH, we are can go from full red to full green in less than 25 seconds. Tested

If we where a hybrid, we should be able to heal and DPS at the same time, and if we where a class cannon, we should be best DPSers (best damage, longest range, best AoE most DPS skill and so on).

If we were the best damage/aoe/healers...why having champions, minstrels and hunters? Sorry, that makes no sense

Right now, I dont know what RK are. They are fun to play, but I dont see their role in groups, and in solo there are much better and stronger classes to play.

I'm feeling very very helpfull in a group. As I have said a few times, this is not an easy class. I think (no offense intented) you may need a bit more practice with your RK. Im not in any manner a great RK, but I think I got the idea of the class, I love the attunement system and our DPS and healing capabilities.

[Frodina]

I have never played WoW, so dont "WoW ->" please

I have however played far more advanced classes than the RK. The illusionists and the class that could make any mob to pet in EQ2 are two examples. Even loremaster in LOTRO (I have a lvl50 one) feels much more advanced.

This class has some serious flaws I listed, and given time I am sure you will discover them as well. That is not the same as saying the class is weak. I solo orange signatures with no troubles (white elites are thougher though due to power issues).

But just as an example: why should minstrels do more damage when they heal than RK can do when they heal? Minstrels also have better AoE when healing, and atleast as good AoE when in DPS mode. This to me is serious design flaws.

And ofcourse the class is useable in groups, but its still without purpose. Its not a buffer, not a healer, not a nuker and not even a hybrid. For 6-12 people groups you will always, without exception, prefer something else than the rune keeper (minstrel for main heal, captain for support heal and buffs, hunter for DPS, champ for aoe and so on).

If RK where true nukers, they would have a purpose. Even as a normal hybrid they would be okish. As it is now they feel pretty redundant.

[WebbyWebbyWebby]

Originally Posted by Frodina

I have never played WoW, so dont "WoW ->" please

I have however played far more advanced classes than the RK. The illusionists and the class that could make any mob to pet in EQ2 are two examples. Even loremaster in LOTRO (I have a lvl50 one) feels much more advanced.

This class has some serious flaws I listed, and given time I am sure you will discover them as well. That is not the same as saying the class is weak. I solo orange signatures with no troubles (white elites are thougher though due to power issues).

But just as an example: why should minstrels do more damage when they heal than RK can do when they heal? Minstrels also have better AoE when healing, and atleast as good AoE when in DPS mode. This to me is serious design flaws.

And ofcourse the class is useable in groups, but its still without purpose. Its not a buffer, not a healer, not a nuker and not even a hybrid. For 6-12 people groups you will always, without exception, prefer something else than the rune keeper (minstrel for main heal, captain for support heal and buffs, hunter for DPS, champ for aoe and so on).

If RK where true nukers, they would have a purpose. Even as a normal hybrid they would be okish. As it is now they feel pretty redundant.

I am trying to be as objective as possible but you are making this difficult!!

How does a Minstrel do more damage when it heals? I'm not following you here, Minstrel's have better group heals because they ARE the primary heal class, RuneKeepers were not designed to replace Minstrels.

The class is without purpose? Not a healer? What!? I've kept a full fellow healed as a main healer, it's a lot harder to juggle the hots than it is to heal on my Minnie BUT the RK is a different type of healer.

RK's are NOT true nukers, your missing the whole point of the RK, they can do pretty good damage, they can do pretty good healing but NOT at the same time!!!! That's the whole point, they can bring either DPS or healing to a group.

I have a suggestion for you, delete your RK and go play another class, you obviously don't get this one!

[Borofeev/Bashhealer]

i enjoy playing my rune keeper currently level 57 have done Skumfil in hard mode both as dps and a main healer and had no problems but yes against 3 mobs of a higher levels in the mines is an extremely tough fight but then that means you have to pick and choose what you fight

[Troy Taranis]

I've got a lvl 45 Captain and a lvl 28 Rune Keeper.

I'd say the RK is a better secondary healer in a group than the Captain. It's better for soloing than a Captain and to my surprise, I discovered by accident earlier that it's a better tank than a captain.

My RK was fighting Aurochs on the East side of Esteldin with a Warden, also lvl 28. Following the usual convention, he was tanking, I was healing, and throwing in the odd DOT and primary attack. However, we were fighting a lvl 33 Signature Auroch that suddenly decided to turn its attention to me and I was forced to switch all my healing to myself and to forget the Warden. So not by design, I became the tank, as the Auroch gave 100 % of its attention to me for the rest of the fight, my health stayed just about full and the Warden was able to systematically wear the beast down until it was dead without receiving any more damage himself.

I must say I was impressed. I wouldn't have thought I stood a chance in that situation if you'd have asked me beforehand.

On the subject of WAR, I have a zealot in that game, which is also a hybrid caster/healer. Without a doubt, the RK is a more powerful dps class and a much better healer than the zealot. As was already pointed out though, not at the same time. If you're grouped with other people, you have to decide before the fight starts what your primary role will be... damage, or healing.

[Erhnam]

Originally Posted by Frodina

I have never played WoW, so dont "WoW ->" please

I have however played far more advanced classes than the RK. The illusionists and the class that could make any mob to pet in EQ2 are two examples. Even loremaster in LOTRO (I have a lvl50 one) feels much more advanced.

This class has some serious flaws I listed, and given time I am sure you will discover them as well. That is not the same as saying the class is weak. I solo orange signatures with no troubles (white elites are thougher though due to power issues).

But just as an example: why should minstrels do more damage when they heal than RK can do when they heal? Minstrels also have better AoE when healing, and atleast as good AoE when in DPS mode. This to me is serious design flaws.

And ofcourse the class is useable in groups, but its still without purpose. Its not a buffer, not a healer, not a nuker and not even a hybrid. For 6-12 people groups you will always, without exception, prefer something else than the rune keeper (minstrel for main heal, captain for support heal and buffs, hunter for DPS, champ for aoe and so on).

If RK where true nukers, they would have a purpose. Even as a normal hybrid they would be okish. As it is now they feel pretty redundant.

I have plenty of time played with my RK. Tried them in beta, and mine in live is now almost 54

Lets see: Minstrels doing more damage than us while in healing? No ballad can outdamage a few FR (which im traited to use them in healing mode). More AOE damage? They only have one aoe while healing, we have none. Yeah, i could give you that. Again, we can outdamage their AoE with a FR easily.
In DPS mode they have some nice burst aoe dps...and thats all. We can sustain a much better aoe damage (writ of cold, FoW, SM, WoC again, EoW, WoC, WE, and recall that SM has a 30sec dot ticking) No minstrel can come close to that damage. Hell, no hunter can come close to that damage in aoe terms

About groups? We did Library with 2 level 50 RK, and a level 51 Warden. One RK healing, the other one nuking. Worked wonders. We all got a level and did School with 0 deaths, on our first visit there. So yes, we have a solid place in groups. Either as DPS and backup healer, or just as primary healer. And with shocking touch traited, we have some backup CC too

Im sorry of you are getting a worse feeling about your RK. For me, it does fairly well solo, and is impresive in a good group. Of course i would love to do some serious nuking and healing at the same time. But that would be really OP.

Remember that we are 75% champ (aoe dps), 75% hunter (single target dps) and 75% minstrel (healing) all in one, depending on the group carencies
. In my book, thats being a hybrid. A good one

[Elveleg]

Originally Posted by Frodina

I have however played far more advanced classes than the RK. The illusionists and the class that could make any mob to pet in EQ2 are two examples. Even loremaster in LOTRO (I have a lvl50 one) feels much more advanced.

I am sorry to say that you clearly miss the point of the RK as an "advanced class". It is the way they have to deal with different party situations and adapt themselves in the role at the hour of need. They have to roll from DPS to healing side (and the opposite) as quickly as possible and a move like that could save the party from total wipe. And don't forget of course that only in the hands of an experienced player this class can make wonders and that it is why it is an advanced class. No true CC (at least if not traited), no i-will-buttons, no spamming 1 button options but all the same, can deal with every situation, can fit any role (except tanking ofc :P) and can brag about it!

Originally Posted by Frodina

And ofcourse the class is useable in groups, but its still without purpose. Its not a buffer, not a healer, not a nuker and not even a hybrid. For 6-12 people groups you will always, without exception, prefer something else than the rune keeper (minstrel for main heal, captain for support heal and buffs, hunter for DPS, champ for aoe and so on).

Sure a hunter can outdps us (in single mod terms), and a minstrel can outheal us. But just imagine one of them died. Then what? Wipe. but not if there is you friendly neighborhood RK there to save the day! And that is what a hybrid is all about. ADAPT to any role as needed, not take the place of ALL the rolls at once.

[Runiya]

I have a level 60 minstrel. I am a tailor on her, so I needed a DPS to farm the hides, which brought me to three choices really : Champion / Hunter / Rune-keeper.

I chose for the rune-keeper initially because I love the healing in combat. I play almost everything solo , and I'm not much of a pot user, so I decided to give the rune-keeper a try. I also enjoy the challenge of new, unexplored ( well.. for non-beta players that is ) classes.

I rolled a rune-keeper and had to battle through my first 5 levels ( the startup quest ). It was hard, everything was new and to be honest I survived mainly because of luck. I hadn't read the skill descriptions very well either so I didn't know the cooldowns , the damage output or the attunement thing. Call it luck but I survived the newbie quests. I mainly used my rune to hit the goblins physically and healed myself with my only healing spell ( a small HoT ) which I kept casting on myself although now I realize it's pointless to recast it before the 30 seconds run out. I was a noob-runekeeper.

That was 2 days ago.

I'm level 27 now. I have gotten some awesome skills like Epic Conclusion and a fire spell with damage over time which is really good in groups ( but not so much in solo, as I use mainly lightning damage in solo ).

Although I still consider myself a noob until I reach level 50 and have run some instances, I can say that I am familiar with the rune-keeper now as well as the minstrel ( having a 60 minstrel and played only her since LoTRO came out, I know the limitations of the minstrel very well ).

The damage part of the runekeeper :
Anyone who says a minstrel can outdamage the runekeeper ( even a healing rune-keeper ) either has never played a minstrel, or never played a rune-keeper.
At level 27 ( this might change later on, I don't know this yet ) the rune-keeper is the absolute top DPS in the game. Hunters and Champions don't come close to the rune-keeper at this level. Again, I'm talking level 27 , this might change later on. My rune-keeper does about twice the damage of champions and wardens.
The hunters can keep up in damage but only by using all their cooldowns. After their cooldowns end ( like on small boss fights ) then the runekeepers damage really mounts up and the damage over time + lightning + all the other goodies by far excess the damage of the hunter.

That is the damage part. I can say I'm very glad I didn't roll anything else than a rune-keeper for my main goal ( which was having a DPS for farming hides for my tailor ).

The only flaw I found was that if you get disarmed as a runekeeper , you are a sitting duck. But then again, you need to choose your opponents well. And if you have 3 mobs from which 1 can disarm, then you take the disarmer down first and put some DoT's on him to make sure he dies. Then you proceed to the others.

The survival part of the runekeeper:
Indeed, this is party dependant on how you start the battle. You runestone ( especially the ones with endurance ) will be able to take quite some hits before it fades. During that time you get free healing while you kill the first mob. So you already got 1 mob down for free. On top of this you are now damage attuned and have access to more powerful damage spells. You can normally start nuking the second mob before the runestone is gone, ( I usually put 2 nice DoTs on him
before he reaches me, then I finish him off with some lightning. I usually also put a HoT on me at this time so I get morale for free every 5 seconds for 30 seconds. This helps in the long run. When the second mob goes down I usually have 95% morale left, and the third mob is already hitting on me, I finish him off with lightning only spells and epic conclusion.
If I try and fight 3 mobs on my minstrel, I'm dead. Simple as that. No way I can survive 3 mobs on my minstrel. My minstrel can take on an elite 2-3 levels higher, but so can my rune-keeper. So for surviveability, I would say the rune-keeper is better than the minstrel.
If the runekeeper doesn't start the fight but it neutrally attuned, then plant down your runestone to get two of them off you and you can still win, it will be tougher but it can be done using stun skills and armor skill ( and stun lightning ).

The healing part of the runekeeper:
I healed only once in groups but everyone was topped off 100% all the time. I told them to stay near my runestone and I the ones who got aggro a HoT and used my -threat spell to not get aggro. I got aggro once on a pull of 5 mobs, but I kited it around while the others had HoT's on them ( and I refreshed their HoT's while running the mob around ). I love this part of the runekeeper, a lot of spells can be cast while on the run. The minstrel has only one such spell called SoS , but that doesn't do much healing , even at level 60 it's only 37morale per 3 secs for 15 seconds. That's nothing compared to the runekeeper ( no idea how much it is at level 60, but at level 27 my HoTs are better already ).
Can a rune-keeper be main healer in fellowship instances : Absolutely yes.
Can a rune-keeper be main healer in raids ? Probably not. But otherwise the minstrel class would be completely useless, which I'm glad it isn't. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe the minstrel is useless after all and two runekeepers can keep up the raid ( see WoW for example : Shamans or paladins as main healers are perfectly viable ).

Conclusion :
If I'm asked which character I rather play with , which is it, my level 60 minstrel or my 27 rune-keeper ? Definately my rune-keeper. Less painful grinding. ( I take down 5-6 mobs in the same time as my minstrel needs for 1 mob ). Will I ever play my minstrel again ? Only if needed by the kin. And probably I'll just run my rune-keeper in healing mode if they require a healer. I honestly feel that healing with the minstrel is flawed. Too long casting times, too long 'reset-timers' ( try to do two small heals consecutively, you'll see you need to wait like 5 seconds ).
And to be honest, casting big heals on the main tank all the time isn't what I call "interesting" fighting. That is the future role of the minstrel however : Big heals on the main tank all the time. "The rune-keepers will do the rest"
I know which of the two is more enjoyable to play personally.

The rune-keeper is actually more viable in groups than the minstrel. You need 1 minstrel and 2-3 rune-keepers in a raid. The minstrel heals the tank only, the runekeepers ( depending if the fight needs healing or damage ) will assign themselves accordingly. Some bosses might need 4 healers, some might need only 2. I don't like to swap my minstrel out of the raid after the boss fight just to make room for a hunter to clear the trash : Just switch attunement and your rune-keeper is a top-DPS'er.