when is human the better choice for a Mage the drow (min/max point of view)

[Naryas]

The biggest reason to play is to have fun.
Most people think other things then min/max are the things that make the game fun. But some (like me) think it's fun to discuss min/max things

When is human the better choice for a Mage the drow (min/max point of view)?

First I like to point out the obvious that drow elf are a better race then pure elf for Wizard. It have all the advantage of pure elf and +2 int.

My hypotes is that if you have made a human Mage (Sorcerer/Wizard) that should have
1) Used the +1 enhancment on the primary stat.
OR
2) Have a spellfocus feats.
If it was a human.
Then drow is the better race.

If you are a human Sorcerer that
1) Don't Uses the +1 enhancment on the primary stat.
AND
2) Don't have a spellfocus feats.
Then human the better race. Becource it gets one more feat.

As elf wizard have a enhancment that raised the mana with more spellpoints then a feat the only type of caracter that would not be better as a wizard would be one that are not intresting in any mana increasing feats/enhancment or in any spellfocus feats.

To summer it upp:
Drow is a better race for Wizards the human (from a min/max point of view).
Drow is a better race for crowed controll focused Sorcerer the human (from a min/max point of view).
Human are the better race for none crowed controll focused Sorcerer (from a min/max point of view).

In none crowed controll spells I include damage dealing spells (that are not heavy depending on saves) and buffingspells.

[melanastere]

From a min/max point of view, Drow have +2 int from start, Human have +1 int at 5th level from their race. Note however that +2 int for the Drow gives him 31 int at max (with a +4 int item, +2 tome) which doesn't give any extra bonus compared to 30 int. He should get a +5 int item (not restricted to another race) to reach 32. Let say that such a chance is close to zero. Note also that the human wizard could have another +1 int after cap raise. So imo from the min/max point of view it's equal/equal, Turbine just have improved the elf race who was treated unfair from this point of view.

Now you have to take into account the enhancements, the sr etc... Some items will have better sr than the one provided for the Drow, if you think of very high level Human will have the benefit of more +int enhancements, you have the feats, and less items are excuded for them i guess...

IMO Turbine have just balanced the races. Within the min/max point of view, it's now possible to play a Human or a Drow, enlarging the horizon of possibles.

[silencerius]

Apart from what Melanastere said which I agree to, you have to take into consideration that Drow wizards cannot have the luxury of selecting con or dex builds, they have to be dex based, and in my opinion the con wizard has many advantages over the dex one (but this is based mostly on the playstyle of each person).

I really don't think that any drow wizard can be superior to a human one but only in very special situations where someone has a +5 int item and a +2 tome or has reserved a +1 one.
Humans will always be the first choice for the average person due to feats and action point enhancements.

Of course you can always make a drow and hope that you'll get that +1 tome eventually. Up to the point that you'll get it tho you will be inferior to a human wizard.

To answer your question: Drow is a better race for a damage dealing focused Sorcerer.

[Wolfspite]

I've made an elf wizzie, don't play him much now and really only made him to test new spells so I could pick the right ones for Wolfspirit first time. I went with 16 dex on him, so his bow could offset the reduction in mana.

If I was to delete him, I would make a drow wizzie, but for me, a sorcerer is always best as a human in any scenario.

[Naryas]

Originally Posted by melanastere

From a min/max point of view, Drow have +2 int from start, Human have +1 int at 5th level from their race. Note however that +2 int for the Drow gives him 31 int at max (with a +4 int item, +2 tome) which doesn't give any extra bonus compared to 30 int. He should get a +5 int item (not restricted to another race) to reach 32. Let say that such a chance is close to zero. Note also that the human wizard could have another +1 int after cap raise. So imo from the min/max point of view it's equal/equal, Turbine just have improved the elf race who was treated unfair from this point of view.

I asume that human might get +2 enhancment at lvl 12 but that is a pure speculation. If they get that enhancment they could get upp to equal int as a drow Wizard. But at the cost of one enhancments.
As enhancment usually are more powerfull then feats. I think that the ability to use one more enhancment as a drow is more valueble then one that get one one feat (as a human).

Originally Posted by silencerius

Apart from what Melanastere said which I agree to, you have to take into consideration that Drow wizards cannot have the luxury of selecting con or dex builds, they have to be dex based, and in my opinion the con wizard has many advantages over the dex one (but this is based mostly on the playstyle of each person).

True.
Making a con build as a drow Mage will give you one less con.

Originally Posted by Wolfspite

If I was to delete him, I would make a drow wizzie, but for me, a sorcerer is always best as a human in any scenario.

I agree that human are better Sorcerer for damage dealing Sorcerer. But you explain why you think human is beter for crowed controll Sorcerer?

[Nouda]

ive got drow for my cc sorc... but for a completly different reason... I wanted to run around in a mitheral chain shirt... so it was either elf or drow...

so I could either have elf that gets long bows, and long swords as standard (as well as the enhacement for extra damage) or a drow with the +2 stat modifire....

As I have a very passive was of playing I dont really enjoy combat chars of I should the + 1 DC in a drow

[Sarezar]

if humans aren't given a +2 int enhancement, they will remain to 31 int even after the level raise cap, when drows will be at 32. (with +4 item always)

and don't forget that +5 int items are not only rare, but they are also elf/drow restricted (at least the 3 that i have seen are). so humans won't have the chance to go to 32 int with a +5 item (unless they win it in an event )

nevertheless, i don't believe that a +1 to modifier will give you very big advantage in compare to human wizards. a wizard is more than spamming the shocking grasp/fireball/ball of lightning/magic missile/pk buttons :P

[Sunesis]

Another good discussion Naryas

From a non-power gamer perspective, and there are lots of us out there (ie those not really playing enough to seriously hope for a tome or an ueber item), the calculation for Sorcerers is quite simple:

with only *guaranteed* items (quest items), a drow Sorc can get to 28 Charisma (20 +2 at lv +3 enhancement +3 from Delera's robe)

a human Sorc only 27 (18 +2 at lv +4 enhancement +3 from Delera's robe).

That's +1 DC for the drow.

Adding tomes or ueber-items is pure speculation for a lot of players. So in my book a CC drow Sorceror is better than a CC human Sorceror.

Although given the effectiveness of CC spells in elite high-end quest post module-2, the question may be: is it even worth considering a CC build. But that's another question altogether.

Cheers
Sunesis / Moonesis

[Wolfspite]

Originally Posted by Sunesis

Another good discussion Naryas

From a non-power gamer perspective, and there are lots of us out there (ie those not really playing enough to seriously hope for a tome or an ueber item), the calculation for Sorcerers is quite simple:

with only *guaranteed* items (quest items), a drow Sorc can get to 28 Charisma (20 +2 at lv +3 enhancement +3 from Delera's robe)

a human Sorc only 27 (18 +2 at lv +4 enhancement +3 from Delera's robe).

That's +1 DC for the drow.

Adding tomes or ueber-items is pure speculation for a lot of players. So in my book a CC drow Sorceror is better than a CC human Sorceror.

Although given the effectiveness of CC spells in elite high-end quest post module-2, the question may be: is it even worth considering a CC build. But that's another question altogether.

Cheers
Sunesis / Moonesis

Naryas asked me to explain, and I will use your post as a starting point.

Any sorcerer can get to 28 charisma, you don’t need an item to do that, an eagles splendour is sufficient for 10 minutes and still leaves you with loads of mana to CC with. So they are equal with the human taking the human enhancement, granted the drow will replace this with SR.

If, and IF a +5 item comes up, atm these items are race restricted and I have seen all sorts including human and elf. I do know of a bard in our guild that has a +5 cloak of charisma (human). This is the only scenario where a drow surpasses a human atm, on odd numbered items at the highest lvl above what eagles will provide which happens to be +5 atm.

When the lvl cap increases, humans may well get an increase to human stat enhancements which now makes the races level again.

So, my original statement was “a sorcerer is always best as a human in any scenario.”

Most scenarios in this game are not governed by one style of play, you don’t just CC and you don’t just DD, at least I don’t anyway, I use both in all quests, this is what I mean by any scenario.

To give you an example, in Co6 elite, I’ve now stopped trying to curse and hold the reavers. Instead I spam them with magic missiles while holding a superior potentcy 1 staff with no meta feats on. This does about 35 damage, its just enough damage to make the reaver think about disengaging the fighters and coming after me, but they don’t most of the time. This means they stop hitting the fighters on each cast of MM, which considering that is every second is effectively CC. Now from time to time, they will come after me, so I then start a circle strafe spinning around the fighters while the reaver follows me, this allows the fighters to hit the reaver while standing still and get the aggro back, as soon as they do I’m back to MM.

Now I’m not saying this is perfect, far from it, but it seems to be a lot better than wasting mana on curse and hold monster. Having said that, if one of the warriors has a cursespewer, then I will try for holds. I have used this technique 6 times now and havn’t died yet, it certainly seems to make it a lot easier.

So that’s what I mean by any scenario, CC is not just about specific CC spells. Add in that the human has an extra feat and skill point and imo, if built correctly, a human is better than a drow.

[Reapsy]

I pk'ed 3 renders in cot6 elite after module 2! Hurrah for me!