racism?

TheRaven1406 · 07-05-2006, 09:31 AM

enhancements make certain races much stronger for a class than others

ex. elves: only class that can get elven arcanum and longbow attack& damage
meaning they are by far the best class for wizards and (bow) archers !

isn't that against the nature of D&D with all races "equal" (post V 3.0)?
of course a non-elf ranger is a bit weaker (no -2 dex) but humans aren't that much behind as in DDO if at all, because an extra feat is usefull.
But theres no feat in DDO that can duplicate elven arcanum/attack/damage, since non-humans will also get mental toughness, weapon focus/spec.

ironically elves aren't that good in PnP d&d as wizards (ouch -2 con for a 1d4 hp class without free +20 Hp feat and the +2dex and resistances don't help that much, rather be gnome and have more hitpoints, spell focus illusion, more concentration skill, +1ac/+1ab)

btw lets hope new races come soon , where are the gnomes and half orcs ! (my wizzies usually are gnomes and barbarians/fighters half-orcs)

Thorsson · 07-05-2006, 10:50 AM

Re Wizards: Humans get an Extra Feat, and they can also take Human Intelligence, which means they can end up with some extra SPs and a higher DC than Elves.

(Start Int = 18 + +2 levels + 3 Wiz Enhance + 4 item/buff = 27 +1 Human Enhance = 28.)

Lextalionis · 07-05-2006, 05:07 PM

Agreed, I see balance as being very well done, so far.

Warforged mages can use repair spells on themselves, to heal themselves. Nice.

Elven mages get an enhancement for extra spell points and get +2 Dex for AC and ranged touch attacks. Nice.

Human mages get an extra skill point a level, ultimately an enhancement for +4 on all skills, and they get an extra feat. Very nice.

Dwarves get an enhancements for extra spell points, and are much more resistant to magics. Nice.

Halflings also have +2 Dex, and better saves, and enhancements for +saves, and are Small. Nice (but in truth not nice enough to tempt me to play one).

Thorsson · 07-05-2006, 07:20 PM

BTW I'm waiting for Gnome. Hope they get decent Enhancements.

Terminus Est · 08-05-2006, 05:02 PM

If anything, it is humans who are a bit too overpowered, with that extra feat.

Naryas · 08-05-2006, 09:01 PM

How usefull is a extra feats for wizard?
As wizard have most feat 2nd to Fighter.

And one more skillpoint per lvl. Whats the usefullness of the when you allready have more skillpoints that you have class skills

The bigg reason to choice human ( before elf) is if you like to max out you skills (the +4 skill enhancment) or if you like to use the +1 int enhancment.
But for a pure Wizard you have some enhancmet to choice between that is class specific also. So maby you turn out using none of the race enhancments

Lextalionis · 08-05-2006, 10:02 PM

Most mages seek Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, Extend, Heighten and Empower, some like Maximise some like Quicken (so can take apart bosses quickly, like Sorcerers

).

Some like Spell Focus.

Some like Eschew to avoid those awkward long quest series when you run out of sand or whatever.

Before you even look at Mobile Spellcasting feats, or feats that'd be good for prestige classes (like Combat Casting etc) you're already tight on feats.

And potentially more +Int if you need it.

I still favour human over others for a mage

Naryas · 09-05-2006, 05:01 AM

Was not thinking about prestige classes when I did my comment but on pure Wizard.

If I remember right you will get 5 metamagic feats at lvl 20 as Wizard (one more then in PnP).
And then you will get the 7 ordinary feats.
Of couse getting 13 feats instead of 12 is not bad.

Of couse what's is the best race for a class depends on what type of build you like to create.

LordDoom · 09-05-2006, 08:37 AM

I think balance is all good except two things:

Warforge.

Ranger.

I suppose you might want me to explain at this point well I'm not gonna!!!!! Muwhahhahahahahaa.

Play a Warforge Ranger if you think Im wrong (You may even have fun) But tell me if you think your on par with others.

Gollen · 09-05-2006, 09:39 AM

Who told the races shall be balanced?!

Dont you think it would be funny if an Dwarf could be as good archer as an elf?! Of course there are races wich are stronger in one class and weaker in other. (In AD&D for example the dwarves were forbidden to start a mage. And noone had any problem about it).

I think it is totally reasonable if ome races are better in a specific class than others. That makes that race unique. And i really dont understand what is ur pb? If u r a power gamer then this unbalance can help you to make powerbuilds, if u dont care about power building, then why is it a problem? For example i made an elven cleric, and i dont care if elf suits for cleric or not, i wanted an elven one so i made one.

07-05-2006, 09:31 AM	#1 (permalink)
TheRaven1406 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 152	racism? enhancements make certain races much stronger for a class than others ex. elves: only class that can get elven arcanum and longbow attack& damage meaning they are by far the best class for wizards and (bow) archers ! isn't that against the nature of D&D with all races "equal" (post V 3.0)? of course a non-elf ranger is a bit weaker (no -2 dex) but humans aren't that much behind as in DDO if at all, because an extra feat is usefull. But theres no feat in DDO that can duplicate elven arcanum/attack/damage, since non-humans will also get mental toughness, weapon focus/spec. ironically elves aren't that good in PnP d&d as wizards (ouch -2 con for a 1d4 hp class without free +20 Hp feat and the +2dex and resistances don't help that much, rather be gnome and have more hitpoints, spell focus illusion, more concentration skill, +1ac/+1ab) btw lets hope new races come soon , where are the gnomes and half orcs ! (my wizzies usually are gnomes and barbarians/fighters half-orcs)

07-05-2006, 05:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lextalionis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 216	Agreed, I see balance as being very well done, so far. Warforged mages can use repair spells on themselves, to heal themselves. Nice. Elven mages get an enhancement for extra spell points and get +2 Dex for AC and ranged touch attacks. Nice. Human mages get an extra skill point a level, ultimately an enhancement for +4 on all skills, and they get an extra feat. Very nice. Dwarves get an enhancements for extra spell points, and are much more resistant to magics. Nice. Halflings also have +2 Dex, and better saves, and enhancements for +saves, and are Small. Nice (but in truth not nice enough to tempt me to play one). __________________ Lextalionis of the Vessels of the Sovereign Host, adventuring with Boldrei roleplayers.

08-05-2006, 10:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
Lextalionis Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 216	Most mages seek Mental Toughness and Improved Mental Toughness, Extend, Heighten and Empower, some like Maximise some like Quicken (so can take apart bosses quickly, like Sorcerers ). Some like Spell Focus. Some like Eschew to avoid those awkward long quest series when you run out of sand or whatever. Before you even look at Mobile Spellcasting feats, or feats that'd be good for prestige classes (like Combat Casting etc) you're already tight on feats. And potentially more +Int if you need it. I still favour human over others for a mage __________________ Lextalionis of the Vessels of the Sovereign Host, adventuring with Boldrei roleplayers.

09-05-2006, 05:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
Naryas Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,699	Was not thinking about prestige classes when I did my comment but on pure Wizard. If I remember right you will get 5 metamagic feats at lvl 20 as Wizard (one more then in PnP). And then you will get the 7 ordinary feats. Of couse getting 13 feats instead of 12 is not bad. Of couse what's is the best race for a class depends on what type of build you like to create. Last edited by Naryas; 09-05-2006 at 05:29 AM.

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07-05-2006, 10:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
Thorsson Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1,661	Re Wizards: Humans get an Extra Feat, and they can also take Human Intelligence, which means they can end up with some extra SPs and a higher DC than Elves. (Start Int = 18 + +2 levels + 3 Wiz Enhance + 4 item/buff = 27 +1 Human Enhance = 28.)

07-05-2006, 07:20 PM	#4 (permalink)
Thorsson Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1,661	BTW I'm waiting for Gnome. Hope they get decent Enhancements.

08-05-2006, 05:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
Terminus Est Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 727	If anything, it is humans who are a bit too overpowered, with that extra feat.

08-05-2006, 09:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Naryas Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,699	How usefull is a extra feats for wizard? As wizard have most feat 2nd to Fighter. And one more skillpoint per lvl. Whats the usefullness of the when you allready have more skillpoints that you have class skills The bigg reason to choice human ( before elf) is if you like to max out you skills (the +4 skill enhancment) or if you like to use the +1 int enhancment. But for a pure Wizard you have some enhancmet to choice between that is class specific also. So maby you turn out using none of the race enhancments

09-05-2006, 08:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
LordDoom Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 770	I think balance is all good except two things: Warforge. Ranger. I suppose you might want me to explain at this point well I'm not gonna!!!!! Muwhahhahahahahaa. Play a Warforge Ranger if you think Im wrong (You may even have fun) But tell me if you think your on par with others.

09-05-2006, 09:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gollen Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 405	Who told the races shall be balanced?! Dont you think it would be funny if an Dwarf could be as good archer as an elf?! Of course there are races wich are stronger in one class and weaker in other. (In AD&D for example the dwarves were forbidden to start a mage. And noone had any problem about it). I think it is totally reasonable if ome races are better in a specific class than others. That makes that race unique. And i really dont understand what is ur pb? If u r a power gamer then this unbalance can help you to make powerbuilds, if u dont care about power building, then why is it a problem? For example i made an elven cleric, and i dont care if elf suits for cleric or not, i wanted an elven one so i made one.