The "Marine" SH-60 is NOT realistic! Must be replaced!

[ricnunes]

First of all and despite being my first post here in CM forums, I've been following Operation Flashpoint 2 progress both here in these forums and not only.
I want to say that I'm glad that CM is aparently moving Operation Flashpoint 2 towards realism similar or even better than the first Operation Flashpoint instead of doing what most developers do, with is ruin excelent game series by turning them into "arcadish games"!

I've also been following Operation Flashpoint 2 preview and interview movies and so far I have one HUGE criticism about what I've seen so far in a interview movie, in which a developer said that Operation Flashpoint 2 will model the SH-60 Seahawk instead of the UH-60 Blackhawk because is what the Marines use. I also seen an Operation Flashpoint 2 screenshot showing a SH-60 with MARINES markings.
BUT the PROBLEM is the the Marines DON'T USE the SH-60 Seahawk or any of the of the Sikorsky S-70 family for that matter!! INSTEAD the Marines USE the Huey family helicopters being the most recent addition to this family the UH-1Y (which BTW will be modeled by Armed Assault 2).

Like I previously said the SH-60 is NOT used by the Marines but it's used by the US Navy, which isn't the same as the US Marines (in the USA, Marines is an independent branch from the US Navy or any other US armed Forces branch) so you won't see any SH-60 landing US Marine assault troops anywhere (except in a case of emergency, and even there I have my doubts) because the Marines have their own exclusive assets, like for the example the already mentioned Huey family (UH-1N or the most recent UH-1Y), the CH-46 or the V-22 Osprey!

The SH-60 is more oriented for naval roles such as Anti-submarine warfare and the only troop airlift role that the SH-60 should "normally" do is to disembark US Navy SEALs (US Navy Special Forces) in infiltration missions or to disembark boarding parties on board of suspected or hostile ships.

So in my oppinion the SH-60 should be totally replaced by the UH-1Y, or alternatively by the CH-46 or V-22 Osprey in Operation Flashpoint 2 since from what I gather the US main force will be the US Marines!

Honestly and please don't get me wrong, but how a development team which has 2 full time members that only do research about military equipment do such a mistake!? Perhaps CM should conside replacing those 2 "research members" since this is really a gruesome mistake about military realism! Honestly I would do a better job at that.

[[TFN]Warrior]

They added the MH-60s not the SH-60.

Major differences:

1. Tail wheel that sits farther aft then the current SH-60's tail wheel to allow for more aggressive landings on confined zones.

2. Engine exhaust venting effectively reduces the aircraft's heat signature.

3. Cabin features on both sides of the aircraft for rapid infil / exfil.

4. Advancements in avionics and ergonomics by using the combined GPS and inertial system for navigation.

5. Digital instrument array.

I would have to agree with the part about it not being made for the marines. Right now the navy is the only service that has bought into the program. I've heard talk of the marines buying into the new aircraft but its not likely with their alleged purchase of around 360 new V-22 Ospreys.

[LCPL Hoot]

First off, the Marine Corps is in the Department of the Navy. Second off, if Marines don't use the SH/HH-60's, why have I flown in them multiple times? The Marine Corps and Navy work very closely together, which is why it is called the "Navy-Marine Corps Team."

I agree however, that the game should include the CH-46's, CH-53's, and (possibly) the V-22. But to say the Marines don't use the SH-60 is simply wrong. And given the nature of this combat situation, the use of a SH-60 is highly probable.

CM didn't make a mistake by replacing the Blackhawk with a Seahawk, to say that is wrong. They corrected their use of the Blackhawk because it is unlikely Marines would have access to that equipment, at least at the beginning stages of a largely naval conflict.

Replace the SH-60? I think thats a bit drastic. Add the UH-1N, CH-46, and CH-53s? Much better choice. Oh, and if you don't believe me:


U.S. Marines fast rope from a MH-60S Knighthawk during training exercises on Naval Station Rota, Spain as part of Exercise Phoenix Express April 12, 2007. Phoenix Express includes participants from Algeria, France, Greece, Italy, Malta, Morocco, Portugal, Spain, Tunisia, Turkey, and the United States. The multi-national exercise is focused on developing the individual and collective maritime proficiencies of participating nations. The exercise promotes friendship, mutual understanding and cooperation with regional partners. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 2nd Class Andrew King. (RELEASED)



BOARDING-08 IRAQ ÅEMarines fast rope out of an SH-60 Seahawk helicopter to execute a visit, board, search and seizure mission here. The Marines are among fellow reconnaissancemen of 2nd Platoon, Company B, 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion, 3rd Marine Division. The platoon left for Iraq in April and conducted numerous mission sets as a Maritime Special Purpose Force Platoon. The primary focus was on protecting oil platforms and other key Iraqi infrastructure. (Photo Courtesy of 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion)(released)

[Apache-Cobra]

I think CM is firm in their vehicle selection at this point. We should be suggesting other, smaller things that would help the game overall and let the vehicle making be done by the mod community.

[Longjocks]

Moved thread to Ideas/Suggestions forum in lieu of a Demand forum.

[FryzieDelta]

Wait a sec, there were marine markings on the seahawk now? I went to have a look back at the images when I saw that remark but they appear to have been removed or something, so does anyone have any other sources for the images? If that is true, then I agree that that is a mistake, it should be marked with the navy markings and be support from the navy, not an actual marine vehicle.

Also, the mention of SEALs was interesting. I suppose that they most likely would be present in a situation like this in real life (they would at least be there to do the preliminary stuff before the main force roles in, and then probably work to support the marines in addition to force recon to do disruption and annoyance operations behind enemy lines). But anyway, back on topic.

I agree you Hoot, seeing as your experience would be the greatest in relation to this. I hope those images of marines fast roping gives CM ideas

[USATV]

Originally Posted by SmallfrySASR

Wait a sec, there were marine markings on the seahawk now? I went to have a look back at the images when I saw that remark but they appear to have been removed or something, so does anyone have any other sources for the images?

It still says Navy...
http://ofp2.info/ftp/pics/news/pics1/ofp2chopper1.jpg

[FryzieDelta]

Oh good, I was getting worried there for a second

Thanks for that.

[1Mystic-G]

IF they were to include other helos, I'd like to see the CH-53K as they're currently developing it to replace the CH-53E.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...updated-01724/
It would be awesome to have this game's assets be relevant way down the road.

I think we may see that model in some modding or in a possible OFP3 some 7 years from now. XD

I REALLY wanted to see the CH-46 though if anything.

[ricnunes]

First of all, yes the Seahawk helicopter in OPF2 is the MH-60 and not the SH-60, but in reality that doesn't matter much because both MH-60 and SH-60 belong to the Seahawk family and the US Marines (squadrons) simply don't operate any Seahawk, Blackhawk or any S-70 helicopter family for that matter! The US Marines helicopter squadrons operate as transport/assault helicopter the UH-1 familly, the CH-46, CH-53 family and the V-22 Osprey.

@LCPL Hoot:
Like I previously said the US Marines (US Marine helicopter squadrons and pilots) don't operate any Blackhawk ot Seahawk family of helicopters. If you take a close look into the picture that you posted you can perfectly see that Seahawk markings say "NAVY" and NOT "MARINES".
You may be correct when saying that the Marine Corps is in the Department of the Navy BUT that's only IN PAPER. In PRATICAL terms (and in reality for that matter) the MARINES operate like an independent branch because they have and operate their OWN aircraft (owning both fixed and rotorary wing aircraft), their own vehicles (MBTs, Armored vehicles, trucks, jeeps, etc...), have their own assets (like artillery for example) and have of course their own soldiers! Even the rank system in the Marines is diferent from the Navy! The US Marines are only dependent on the US Navy when travelling by sea in ships, since the US ships are operated by the US Navy. Once projected on land the Marines are completly independent from the US Navy (the Marines have for example their own air support).
You can see this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps
Where it says: "Administratively, the Marine Corps is a component of the Department of the Navy, but it acts operationally as a separate branch of the military, often working closely with US Naval forces for training, transportation, and logistic purposes."

Actually the picture that makes me suspicious about this supposed MARINE MH-60 (which again DOESN'T EXIST) is this:
http://www.ofp2.info/ftp/pics/news/p...pnewpics_4.jpg
Where you can perfectly see MARINES written in that MH-60. This is NOT realistic, the MH-60 are operated by the NAVY and not the MARINES.

Finally and continuing my reply to LCPL Hoot, I don't doubt that US Marine soldier have operated (landed from) MH-60 or SH-60 in certain situations but I'm sure that those situations only happen in low intensity/SpecOps type of operations like for exemple boarding a suspected ship or rescuing a downed pilot behind enemy lines since US Marines operate as security detachments on board of US Navy Ships.
BUT, if the Marines are in a full scale operation or war like for exemple to INVADE an island (which is the scenario of OPF2) or a enemy country you SIMPLY WILL NOT see Marines landing in MH-60s or SH-60s. You WILL see Marine soldiers landing in UH-1N (soon to be replaced by the UH-1Y), CH-46, CH-53E (-K version in the future) and V-22 Ospreys which will be escorted by AH-1W (soon to be replaced by the AH-1Z which is already modeled in OFP2 and ArmA as well).

So if the game will be centered on the Marines they MUST model AT LEAST ONE of the following transport/assault helos:
UH-1N/Y; CH-46; CH-53E/K; V-22

If CM wants to keep the MH-60 Seahawk together with at least one of the helos above (but more the merrier) than it must NOT place the "MARINES" markings in the MH-60 but instead completly replace it with "NAVY" markings instead like in the picture that USATV posted!

BTW, I posted this thread in the General forum and not in the sugestion forum because this thread meant to be a criticism to a OFP2 feature that I saw and not a sugestion "per se". But sorry if I made a mistake here...