Orion: Problems and Solutions #1

[Gammer Took]

I am labelling this number one only because there may be more some day. I cannot think that I will write of any other problem tomorrow, as tomorrow I will begin working on solutions to the problem put forth in this little blog.

We have a problem. We have this glorious epic storyline that takes you throughout Eriador but requires you, at various points, to find others to assist you. This is all well and good when you are a newer game and the majority of the populace is roughly the same level and progressing at roughly the same rate. However, when you are 2+ years removed from launch and looking at the trends and notice that more and more players are abandoning that rich - focal - part of your narrative game, then there is a problem.

First and foremost we are a game driven by story. Your place in that story. How you deal with elements of that story and interact with the story. Our epic is clearly one of the most important facets of our game. Now, few people are continuing on with it post Volume 1, Book 1 and this means that we have a problem that needs a solution.

The Solution? Moments of inspiration. These are the moments when your character digs deep into their reserves and finds something more. Whether this is drawn from the people around them or from their own sense of purpose these are the moments inspiring greatness.

Starting with Volume 1, Book 2 - completely revamped and restructured in the upcoming release on December 1st, the Epic Book series will be getting treatment to identify key moments in your character’s life. These types of moments will allow your character to don the mantle or heroism and fight against far greater odds.

Inspired Greatness does the following for a player:

Increases morale and power significantly, increases in-combat and out-of-combat morale and power regeneration, increases damage output from melee, ranged and tactical sources, increases healing output for all healing skills.

Through this we will be able address the problem highlighted above and apply the solution to all the Books comprising Volume 1 of the story of The Lord of the Rings Online.

[grinko-at]

Honestly, it seems like Orion bit off more than he can chew (and we know he can chew a lot)

Here are just some problems I can think of when this gets implemented as stated in the blog post.

1.) Complexity. The buff seems to only give +Morale, +Power, +Inc. Healing, +ICMR/ICPR, +Damage.
This may be fine for classes like Guardian and Champion, since they rely on these mechanics. But there are quite a number of mechanics not affected by this buff, and classes that rely on them may have it significantly harder to solo these quests, to name a few:

Ministrels/RK/LM: Induction setback. It seems like it goes unaffected, and if you have 3+ elites and adds beating on you, you can't get a single induction off, buff or not. Loremasters and RK have some tools to counteract this (lightning skills, CC) but ministrels have not, they won't be able to use a healing skill when attacked by lots of mobs.

Rune-Keeper and few others: DoTs, they are not affected by +Damage, so they remain in normal state when doing an epic instance.
EDIT: According to Beta Posts, DoTs are now affected by +outgoing damage.

HM/Lore-master: Pets. Will they be buffed as well? if not, they are worthless in the instance (die from AoE), but Lore-masters rely on them for flanking heals.

I'm sure others fill find skills/mechanics that need to be changed as well because they are not covered by the buff.

Which leads me to the next problem:

2.) Soloability. Ony a few classes can stand in melee combat with a EM/nemesis mob or lots of trash mobs, or usually fight ranged (like RK, Hunter, kiting Loremaster). They rely on kiting to keep the mob in distance, but all bosses are unaffected by CC and slows now, making it significantly harder to solo them while other classes can beat them easily with the epic buff.

(And what about instances that can't be soloed by design, like the Annuminas instance where one player has to get the Palantir out while others fight the mobs? Or group quests that are not in instances like parts of Book 4?)

So there are 2 solutions: You can adjust all class mechanics/skills and remove CC immunity from bosses, which is a HUGE task in terms of class balance and playtesting and still requires you to change certain instances/bosses.
Or you make the buff so epic that all class balance problems are insignificant - ministrels don't need to heal, RKs don't need to kite etc. because they have sh*tloads of morale, but that trivializes the content for classes like Guardian/Warden.

Which I think becomes problem nr. 3:

The feeling of epic instances. They are a challenge, and you face powerful enemies like the Nazgul from Book 5, Mordirith, Mordrambor, etc. Do you want a player to be able to walk into Helegrod and defeat the Nazgul solo, but doing the exact same thing in Dol Guldur reqires a 12-man raid and tons of radiance? Or walk into Carn Dum alone and kick Mordirith's ass? A Loremaster completely destroying groups of elites with Ents and napalm? A RK fighting Mordrambor in melee?

This changes the perception of how players see their classes - not just a adventurer above average who needs fellowships to fight epic enemies, but some kind of demi-god hero who defeats Saurons most powerful servants easily by himself.

So, I think this change may be looking nice at first, but brings so many problems which have to be adressed that Orion may be better off just revamping the instances or offer solo alternatives.

[Majik_Knight]

Originally Posted by grinko-at

Honestly, it seems like Orion bit off more than he can chew ......./snip

Im in total agreement after having a good read. It seems that when they try and implement something that will benefit more than the majority they endup messing it up.

The group quests are there to be done, or not. There is NO WAY you will force someone to do the SAME epic quest, the SAME group quest and even the SAME area again and again and again. We have been channeled into creating alts if we want to craft, why should we have to do all the content again?

For those that are in kins and are doing it the first time round, sure its going to be hard to get a group....but that is just the way of MMOs'. Its hard/rare to find a group for hele or the rift nowadays, does that mean your going to nerf that and all?

I believe that the intention is good orion, but it is leading to the grand canyon of /epicfailyness if you keep trying to please the lower levels, Im not even sure that the lower levels need any more tweaking...

Nic

[MechWarrior]

Originally Posted by Majik_Knight

I believe that the intention is good orion, but it is leading to the grand canyon of /epicfailyness if you keep trying to please the lower levels, Im not even sure that the lower levels need any more tweaking...

Nic

Agreed. The worst things in history were done with the best intentions.

Tunnelling everyone isn't fun. I hated just doing the same introduction for every newb character I made just as an example. Pushing everyone to do book quests is a baaad idea.

Look at MoM... you tunnelled everyone to get the same gear to get into the one end game raid... that was an epic fail.

As the game expands I wouldn't expect your entire player base to want to start in Eriador. As you further the game you will come upon places where you will go... "hey this is a nice place to add another low level area". Like Lorien... where you kill shrews, lizards, crows, and bears... sound familiar to any other starting areas? Then have high level areas off in a corner... like the orcs around the northern part of Lorien. There is nothing wrong with having a huge level differentiation in specific areas.

Should a person create an elf from the golden woods they might be able to start around the golden woods maybe with some faction modifier? or already a good portion of reputation.

Solution to Orion's specific problem.

If you keep refocusing on an area you already completed and polished you will be wasting time that could be used to create new content. If you want the books to be useful give them useful rewards, in addition to the present rewards give a: mount, trait (virtue or otherwise), something that transcends just "congratulations for saving my life.. here's a shiny new cloak". Just don't make it a passive: "congratulations for saving my life... here's +5% moral" that is way too valuable.

Also I don't see a problem with multiple Volumes interconnecting like a web.

Half-Assed Example: Elf from the golden woods starts our in the golden woods, finds his way to Eriador, helps out, etc, find his way back home, yey, continue story...

[kirtana]

Originally Posted by Majik_Knight

The group quests are there to be done, or not. There is NO WAY you will force someone to do the SAME epic quest, the SAME group quest and even the SAME area again and again and again. We have been channeled into creating alts if we want to craft, why should we have to do all the content again?

I also see the problems grinko-at describes, but I'm sure Orion will have thought about these problems, or he wouldn't announce this. Even if I can't imagine any way to make the final chapter of book 15 solo-able this way. But as the books in Annuminas or Angmar are still far down the road, Skirmishes might be the way to go there...

But Majik, who is being forced or nerfed? As Orion says in the discussion thread on the Turbine boards, it is all about options. Who has to do anything again if this is implemented? Who or what is being nerfed? Anyone who wants to do these quests the "classical way" aka with a group can still do that. Anyone who has done them does not have to do them again.

[Undo]

It's a bit sad how solo play gets so much attention, with group quests getting rarer all the time. Granted, getting fellowships together can be annoying, but giving the option to solo everything will make it even harder (I hope skirmishes will help there with its different grouping system).

But the epic story is a major part of the game and rather than no-one playing the books this change sounds sensible. Gives newcomers, or folks leveling their umpteenth alt, a chance to catch up to the current volume.

[Belleal]

Originally Posted by grinko-at

Honestly, it seems like Orion bit off more than he can chew (and we know he can chew a lot)...

I completely agree with you. This "improvement" will bring a basket full of problems with itself. Like someone else said above, perhaps Orion has though this trough and found a passing solution for all or most of the problems (I cannot think on anything that will solve the things mentioned by grinko right now, but hey, I'm just a player!). Hope dies last, they say...

Anyway, I think that this modification will make the already difficult grouping for the Volume 1 books even harder. Someone else mentioned above that players will have a choice between soloing and traditional completion of the quests, however that choice will be more or less dictated by the new situation. Even if you (or me, or anyone) have the desire to wait for a group and do it the old-fashioned-way, after two or three days unsuccessfully trying to form a party for it, you will eventually draw the line and complete the quest simply to get rid of it and move forwards to the next chapter or book, hoping there will be more players to join with. But no, there won't be, because many of them will think the way you do, thus cutting even more the already small player pool. And there are always players, who will simply ignore the, now optional, grouping for the older books, when they can simply get them done in quick-and-dirty way and move on. The result of all this will be more and more players doing or being forced to do the Volume 1 books in solo mode. It is a devils-circle.

To quote some of the posts above - Epic content is called "epic" because it feels that way. Even Gandalf cannot enter alone a fortress full of enemies, wipe them out without much effort, and then for desert challenge a high servant of the Enemy. Why then our characters should be able to do it?