spellselection in a crowdcontroll Sorcerer build?

[Naryas]

Originally Posted by Detton

I tried posting this a while ago, but the forums were down and I lost my chance, so here I go again.

I know people don't particularly care for "Rate My Build" threads, but most people agree that the Sorcerer is the ONE class where it's needed - with little to no room for error, most people (rightfully) don't want to mess up.

Yes, it's about playing what's fun. But, most people find SUCCEEDING fun, not having spells that have little to no use, that they can't get rid of.

With that said, here is my Sorcerer.

Human

8 Str
14 Dex
10 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha

// The dex is for the mobile spellcasting line. I evened out con and wis to get rid of saving throw penalties, 10 int will get me 12 skill points to spend, and 18 cha for...well, you know.

Skills:

+4 Concentration
+4 Diplomacy
+1 Tumble
+3 Move Silently

// The one point in tumble is to unlock it. I'm not sure about the move silently. I would like to use it with Invisibility to line up my CCs easier. But, I may switch to Use Magic Device. I'm just not sure about it.

Feats:

L1: Combat Casting
L1: Mental Toughness
L3: Metamagic Feat (Empower probably)
L6: Mobile Spellcasting
L9: Improved Cast On The Run

// Names might be off, but i'm fairly sure that's the order. I would get Spell Focus: Enchantment, but i've heard that it doesn't do a significant thing. Only increasing the DC by 1 is hardly noticible. Also, I heard HEighten was broken and didn't work, either.

Enhancements:

Sorcerer's Charisma
Human Charisma
Energy of the Dragonblooded
Improved Empower Spell

// Empower will be what increases the few nuking spells I have and use, and improving it will help my efficiency. If Heighten worked, I might've taken the improvement for that instead.

Spells: (It's 4 level 1, 4 level 2, 3 level 3, 2 level 4, and one level 5, right?)

L1: Magic Missle, Burning Hands, Grease, Charm Person

// Missles is a 'meat and potatos' thing. Burning Hands is my low level AE, and will be replaced inevitably. Grease is for elementals and things I can't control that have no reflex saves (and it's funny!), and charm person, if it has no HD limit, is a good spell choice too. (the jury is still out on that, it seems)

Charm Person may be replaced by Charm Monster - the wording is a little strange. Maybe replace that with Sleep, for early levels? Snoozing packs and letting the rogues go to town?

L2: Web, Otto's Resistable Dance, Invisibility, Command Undead

// Invis + Otto's, in theory, would be a nice way to open up a group of enemies to your group. I've heard it was popular, anyway.

L3: Slow, ?Hold Person? , ?Halt Undead? (Maybe Fireball?)

// Not sure if I want Halt Undead, if I have Command. Same with Hold Person. There may be times when I want to just Hold them instead of charming them (convenience. All in all, a hard decision.

Also Fireball may be a good choice to replace Burning Hands, but I could keep using that. I'm not TRYING to have a huge variety of damaging spells.

L4: Charm Monster, Bestow Curse

// Charm Monster finishes up my charm list, and i'll be able to charm almost everything that comes my way now. Bestow Curse + Slow will be a great duo of debuffs to cast on single, hard monsters/bosses (does it work on them? I'm theorizing)

L5: Hold Monster.

// And now I can charm OR Hold just about everything I want.

-----

So, anything exceptionally bad? Any choices that I made based on false assumptions?

The idea behing the class is crowd control - and i'm a sorcerer, because in my experience (at least with other games), when you need CC, you need it FAST, and the speed and spell point benefits a sorcerer has over a wizard are key.

The spell limitation is annoying, but I *think* i covered all my bases. By the end game, I can hold a large variety of enemies, so I don't have to worry about overzealous group members breaking anything. =)

And I get my choice of pets too!

Thoughts?

~Detton

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8619

Made a version of this with the comming modul 3 in mind (asuming we gett greater spellfocus and humans get +2 charism as enchantment):

Human

8 Str
14 Dex
10 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
18 Cha

If you focus on CC the max char is obvous.
The other statpoints i ofcouce debateble (Some prefere con other more int for skills)

Skills:
+4 Concentration
+3 Diplomacy -> +1,5 (as cross class skill)
+1 Tumble -> +0,5 (as cross class skill)
+4 Use Magic device +2 (as cross class skill)

// Concentration is the most importent skill for a Mage.
You never what to fail you spells.
UMD i nice toi have when you lvl upp being able to use Cleric wands with low failur rate is nice.
The last one is depateble diplomacy or move silently or jump or put the +2 int at something else.

Feats:

L1: Spell Focus: Enchantment
L1: Spell Focus: Conjugation
L3: Heighten (a must for a Crowedcontroll Mage)
L6: Mobile Spellcasting
L9: Improved Cast On The Run
L12: Greater spellfocus Enchantment

// IMobile Spellcasting and mproved Cast On The Run can be replace with more mana.
And Spell Focus:Enchantment could be replace with spellpenetration

Enhancements:

Sorcerer's Charisma
Human Charisma
Energy of the Dragonblooded
Improved Heighten Spell

// Unfortunatly there as not many choices if you like to go for Crowed controll all the way. Right now this is the only usefull enhacments

Spells: (It's 4 level 1, 4 level 2, 3 level 3, 2 level 4, and one level 5, right?)

L1: Magic Missle, hypnotism , Grease, Charm Person

//Magic Missle might be replace later then you get access to the "greater magic misslie" lvl 4 spel.
To make things easier you can pick Burning Hands as one of the spell that you replace later.
Personaly I did not take Grease, but if you go for CC all the way, why not?
Sleep is also a option if you play with people that move a round lowly.
Charm Person may be replaced by Charm Monster

L2: Web, Otto's Resistable Dance, Hypnotic Pattern, Command Undead
Web are still the supream best spell then you do quests on normal.
Ottos's are fast to cast but you nead to stay close.
Hypnotic Pattern are nice to have if you like to put a hynotic AoE (slower then the hypnotism spell but works nice if you pull mobs)

L3: Halt Undead, Slow, Hold Person, Deep Slumber (after lvl cap)
Personaly I don't have Hold Person.
But if you have the enchantments above I cost less spellpoints then hold monster and you have lower colddown for it. And I know people that use it for that reason.
Halt Undead is good agains undead with high reflex saves (that you don't like to controll)
Deep slumber works realy long, if there are monster you nead to charm for long time (and not kill).

L4: Charm Monster, Solid fog, Force Missiles (after lvl cap)
Sold fog migh be a good option as it looks like they make i "friendly" to allies in modul 3.
Bestow Curse is not bad but if you play with people that have cures-weapon you don't nead it.


L5: Hold Monster, ??
Hold monster -> greate agains giants as they have weak will.

L6 Sugestion mass
// Charm many monsters for a shorter time then if you use the charm spell. But as you don't nead to dispell them to become enemies again it could be of could use in some quests.

Spells divide save type:

No saves:
Grease - (Nead to conferm that this has no saves. According to PnP it has reflex) also works on "friends".
Solid fog - slow casting AoE slowing down

Will saves:
Charm/Sugestion
Charm Person - faster casting and less spellpoint then Charm monster
Charm Monster
Sugestion mass - shorter time but no nead for display magic
Command Undead - no saves for noneintegent creatures

breaks when attacked
Hypnotism - fast casting
Hypnotic Pattern - slow casting AoE like web
Halt Undead - no saves for noneintegent creatures
Deep Slumber - last long

Don't breaks when get attacked
Otto's Resistable Dance - short distance
Slow - close distance fast casting single target slowing down
Hold Person - faster casting and less spellpoint then Charm monster Hold Hold Monster - medium distance range/melee crits



Reflex saves:
Web - AoE and don't break when attacked(and str check to break it)

[eriken]

Originally Posted by Naryas

http://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8619

Evertyime I see Crowd Control it reminds me of CoH... Controllers were so boring but horribly effective. No damage capabilities what so ever.

Are they better in DDO?

Easier to sneak in a couple of damage spells here luckily

[Zodan]

CC = Web.

On higher levels there are better CC spells (not in the game yet), but really... Web is all you need, trust me.

Other comments to the build:
Taking 2 charm spells is just plain stupid, and so is taking 2 hold spells - just pick the higher level ones if you really want to go with this sort of build.

[Vailin]

Originally Posted by Zodan

CC = Web.

On higher levels there are better CC spells (not in the game yet), but really... Web is all you need, trust me.

Other comments to the build:
Taking 2 charm spells is just plain stupid, and so is taking 2 hold spells - just pick the higher level ones if you really want to go with this sort of build.

I agree... Web is pretty much the best cc, and for a sorcerer very cheap...

[eriken]

Originally Posted by Vailin

I agree... Web is pretty much the best cc, and for a sorcerer very cheap...

True.
Were in a party with a webbing wizard yesterday. Poor bastids just stood there and happily accepted punishment when webbed.

[Naryas]

Originally Posted by Zodan

Other comments to the build:
Taking 2 charm spells is just plain stupid, and so is taking 2 hold spells - just pick the higher level ones if you really want to go with this sort of build.

Any sugestion of other CC spells that one of the Charm spell and one of the hold spell could be replaced with?

[Canine]

Originally Posted by eriken

Evertyime I see Crowd Control it reminds me of CoH... Controllers were so boring but horribly effective. No damage capabilities what so ever.

[OT]

Controllers in CoH had no damage until they got to level 32, assuming they were anything other than mind controllers. After 32, you get the combination of control powers and pets...

And at 41 you get access to the Epic powers, which all have some sort of ranged attack power in them.

Plus, in one of the recent patches, they implemented something called 'Containment' which meant that once you got a mob locked down, any damage dealing power from a controller dealt double damage.

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a Fire/Forcefield Controller on CoH and while early on, you're squishy as hell and soloing is nigh on impossible, later on, it becomes far less tedious and much more entertaining.

That said, from my attempts so far at using crowd control in DDO (still only a level 2 wizard, so not got the interesting Control spells yet) it's not as effective as in CoH. If it was, then the screams of 'Nerf it, for the love of god nerf it now!' would be deafening.

[back on topic, sort of]

Last night we went through 'Stealthy Repossession' with a team of 3 rogues, one wizard, and one bard. And it was only through massive spamming of sleep and charm effects that we managed it. On the second attempt...

With that mission in CoH, an equivalent level controller would have let us absolutely walk it with ease.

However, this ISN'T CoH/CoV, and so far I'm enjoying the challenge, even if Sleep IS incredibly annoying to use, since any moving target will move out of the AoE before the spell effect triggers. So you stand there, waiting for the mob to try and remove someone's spleen so it's stood still before you hit it with sleep.

Whoopsie, enough ranting for now. Later all.

:edited for that one typo that always slips through, no matter how many times you proofread... <sigh>

[Emp^y]

Hypnotise for < lvl 5 quests and web / hypnotise for > lvl 5 quests , as stated above web is really all you need but theres something about getting a multiple hypno on a pack of mobs .. hmm i suppose you have to be there

one thing with web though is be careful casting it on melee action were a someone is using BH it just becomes a waste of SP as it fails more often than not due to getting burnt.

[Zodan]

Originally Posted by Naryas

Any sugestion of other CC spells that one of the Charm spell and one of the hold spell could be replaced with?

Suggestions:

• Roll a wizard then you can CC, as a sorcerer you are expected to destroy everything.. CCing costs very little SP comparing to Sorc SP pool and it's single target only - there is mass hold on higher levels (not in game).
• Level 3 definately needs fireball if you are sorcerer.
• Mobile Spellcasting sucks, in all forms possible. Maybe after you can cast really slow spells that require channeling it is useful (i.e. spells not in).
• Maximize, Maximize and Maximize... Empower is for wimp wizards with no SP.
• Points in Wis and Int to Con to take it up to 14 at least.
• Skill points in UMD and Concentration, no need for anything else - maybe 0.5 points to Tumble so you can back away from combat bit faster.
• Pick one spell, either Hold or Charm, you won't need both - instead take something that gives you better survivability. Test spells before taking them by using scrolls or wands.

[Naryas]

Thanks for the replay.

Originally Posted by Zodan

Suggestions:

• Roll a wizard then you can CC, as a sorcerer you are expected to destroy everything.. CCing costs very little SP comparing to Sorc SP pool and it's single target only - there is mass hold on higher levels (not in game).

It's true that the CC, mass spell are not in the game right now.
But one the cap are lifted I will expect them to be in the game.
So one option if ocource to pick feats that are good for a CC but damage spell untill the lvl cap is lifted.

Originally Posted by Zodan

• Level 3 definately needs fireball if you are sorcerer.
• Mobile Spellcasting sucks, in all forms possible. Maybe after you can cast really slow spells that require channeling it is useful (i.e. spells not in).

How fast is Improved Cast On The Run, compared to ordinary speed?

Originally Posted by Zodan

• Maximize, Maximize and Maximize... Empower is for wimp wizards with no SP.

hehe

Originally Posted by Zodan

• Pick one spell, either Hold or Charm, you won't need both - instead take something that gives you better survivability. Test spells before taking them by using scrolls or wands.

Do I get you right if I say that you think there is not enough CC spells to fill upp the slots of a Sorcerer ?