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View Full Version : Balance Issues - Major Problems (imo)


Cohen
15-03-2006, 06:57 PM
Greetings
I come from other 14 years of pen&paper RPG (not only D&D - to it's the one I played the most), and I noticed some issues which are very unbalancing.

To be honest I hope the Devs "failed" a Spot Check, because if these are intended they for sure showed (to me, at least) the lack of insight a Dev should have.

I'll show here 3 issues, for now, which are primary for the balance of the game.

1st:
Melee attacks are listed as to be always ONE.
In the Pen&Paper you get +6 / +1 BAB, and so on, til having 2-4 attacks according to your class at lvl 20.
This means Meleers are very hindranced, since nowhere it's written that they get extra attacks OR either, since it's a real time game, a bonus in the attack speed. Their BAB just raises.
But casters benefits of all their spells correctly. And we all know how much a Caster's power increase drastically with levels, outmatching meleer's one even if they've all their attacks.

Solution: Raise the Attack Speed by 50% at 2nd attack, 66% at 3rd, and 75% at 4th attack.
The attack speed isn't what it should cause, to simplify the game mechanics the BAB is kept the same (not +6 / +1 at 100% extra speed - double attacks, but +6 fixed at 50% extra speed).

2nd:
Health Point Issue (another disadvantage for Meleers).

Turbine choosed somehow to use this formula to calculate the HP when lvling up:
(DX /2) + 1
This means a Fighter gets 6 Hp (10/2 +1) per lvl after 1st, and a Mage gets 3 (4/2 +1).
Now we can see as the Fighter gets 60% of its potential, and the Mage gets 75%. The more high is your HP Die Roll, the more you've been nerfed in this game.
In addition every character gets +20 HP at start. This is a very nice thing, tbh, but it creates obvious imbalances (we can live with that, but it goes adding up).
In P&P a warrior starting will full dice has 10 + bonus HP, a mage would have 4 + bonus HP. This means the Warrior prolly has double or triple HP than a mage at start.
Adding 20 to both numbers the mage has a nice, nice boost (top of 5 lvls of HP, aside bonuses), meanwhile the fighter get the shaft (top of 2 lvls of HP, aside bonuses).

Solution: Skip on the 20 HP Bonus, which is mandatory in order to survive at low level, but raise to 75% the HP gain on lvl up. So that D4 gets 3 HP, D6 gets 4/5 (odd / even lvls), D8 gets 6 HP, D10 gets 7/8 (odd / even lvls) and D12 gets 9. Plus bonuses obviously. This will help keeping the balance of the Classes.

3rd:
Enchancements and Multiclasses...

Enhancements are something totally new, which are not in P&P.
I like them, I like this addition (perhaps a bit too powerful, but if Monsters are tuned for them, it's fine).
The problem is how they're implemented for Multiclass Characters.

Meanwhile in P&P a Multiclass is perfectly balanced and fair, here it's not compared to a single class character.
Fact is that meanwhile in P&P multiclass allows you to hibrydize yourself, widening your skill range but lowering it at same time, meanwhile keeping the same potential usefullness than a single class character, in DDO it's not the same!
Due to Enchancements, a lvl 10 Warrior is way way superior to a let's say lvl 5 Warrior and lvl 5 something else.
This is a great limit to Multiclassing. Even because high lvl enhancements are far superior than talents (let's get +3 STR for Fighter, it's a combined +3 DMG and ToHit ... like a Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization talents!!!)

Solution:
Give to Multiclass 4 slots reserved for each class.
So a let's say 4 Ranger, 3 Cleric, 3 Fighter would have 4 of the lvl <4 Ranger enchancements, 4 of <3 Cleric ones, and 4 of <3 Fighter one -- which adding up would result in 4 <10 enhancements.
In order to keep it fair, a multiclass picking a Racial Enchancement (like Human Versatility, uses 1 slot per every class of his cause Racial ones are counted for the global lvl).

So this would result in a Fighter having +3 STR, or the 4-3-3 having +1 STR, DEX and WIS. Which is fair and balanced.

Ziu
15-03-2006, 09:15 PM
1st:
Melee attacks are listed as to be always ONE.
In the Pen&Paper you get +6 / +1 BAB, and so on, til having 2-4 attacks according to your class at lvl 20.
This means Meleers are very hindranced, since nowhere it's written that they get extra attacks OR either, since it's a real time game, a bonus in the attack speed. Their BAB just raises.

Actually that's not true. Fighters get additional attacks when having a high BAB. They don't get these attacks on the pnp levels though. The first bonus attack e.g. is received at a BAB of +1. That's why all Fighters have 2 attacks at first level.

Health Point Issue (another disadvantage for Meleers).

Turbine choosed somehow to use this formula to calculate the HP when lvling up:
(DX /2) + 1
This means a Fighter gets 6 Hp (10/2 +1) per lvl after 1st, and a Mage gets 3 (4/2 +1).


When leveling up a character always gets maximum hitpoints. A fighter get's 10HP+Con modifier for example.

...Meanwhile in P&P a Multiclass is perfectly balanced and fair, here it's not compared to a single class character....Due to Enchancements, a lvl 10 Warrior is way way superior to a let's say lvl 5 Warrior and lvl 5 something else....

Somehow many ppl say so but unless you play a spellcaster multiclassing will make you stronger than a pure lvl10 character. Don't overestimate those enhancements. There is a magic barrier though. It's recommended to have at least 8 class levels in your main class because this enables you to get the +3 Stat enhancement.
I agree though that the enhancements need some improvements. IMO it would be a good idea to add special enhancements for multiclass characters. For example an enhancement that enables you to sacrifice some SP to get a short boost to Attack, Damage or Armor Class. This way players aren't forced in mainly pure classes and we will see more 5/5, 6/4, 3/3/4 etc. characters.

Vantor Veileth
17-03-2006, 12:05 AM
I agree. I have also been told that lower lvl Enhancements stack with their higher lvl versions e.g. My 6th lvl Fighter has replaced Fighter's Strength I with II but another guildie who plays a fighter as well has both of them and they stack! I think this should be looked into. Can u imagine a Fighter, say with a 16 starting STR, reach 24 (Fighter's STR I + II + II + Stat increase from lvls 4 and 8) with no magic items at lvl 8?! Then he wears a belt of Giant's Strength +4 (i haven't seen any though) and he can take on anyone:P

So at lvl 10 he has the tremendous STR of 28!!!
Wtf, who needs Bull's Strength anyway:P

Aggro
17-03-2006, 01:13 AM
I agree. I have also been told that lower lvl Enhancements stack with their higher lvl versions e.g. My 6th lvl Fighter has replaced Fighter's Strength I with II but another guildie who plays a fighter as well has both of them and they stack! I think this should be looked into. Can u imagine a Fighter, say with a 16 starting STR, reach 24 (Fighter's STR I + II + II + Stat increase from lvls 4 and 8) with no magic items at lvl 8?! Then he wears a belt of Giant's Strength +4 (i haven't seen any though) and he can take on anyone:P

So at lvl 10 he has the tremendous STR of 28!!!
Wtf, who needs Bull's Strength anyway:P

thats not how it works, "fighters strength II" replaces "fighters str I". however there is an enhancement thats called "human strength" and that stacks with fighters strength.

and stat items do not stack with magic that increese stats: ogre belt +2 str does not stack with bulls str.

Ilmathar
21-03-2006, 08:20 AM
Wow wow wow, backup.
so your suggesting that fighters should hit faster correct due to many attacks later on?... haste spells does the job just fine and they do have melee haste attack enhancement, and casters cant keep spamming dmg spells well sorc a little bit but still. (imagine haste on a hasted melee class, laim)

And if fighters hits faster... why not make their cleave with 0sec cooldown, and make the rangers bow attacks even slower YAY.
So then we can skip the ranger and bard class WEEEEE AWESOME.
Fighters works as intended they arent weak in any way spellcasters are suppose to deal dmg as thats the only thing they can do besides buffing slightly.
Do you have any idea how powerless the rangers then would become? compared to how powerless they already are?
we dont get extra bow attacks no matter lvls and BAB, we dont increase speed with fighters enhancement alltho it should since it doesnt say melee attacks only. if anyone needs faster attacks/more attacks its the rangers mate.
If turbine would take your suggestion into consideration and make it so, then id suggest many shot as a passive skill, not joking here.