Stealth Breakers II

[Dylath Leen]

I have brought this over from another thread in the hope that those who need to see this do, and maybe even get some official response, which would be nice. Here is the link to the original thread btw: http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88337&page=1&pp=10


But opening a door should not AUTOMATICALLY break stealth

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I think my initial point is getting buried here. The point being that opening a door should not automatically break stealth, it should give mobs a bonus to spot/listen depending how close they are. But it should not break it, if any action should break it is smashing boxes/barrels and in fact this does give nearby mobs a chance of a listen check while not automatically knocking you out of stealth. Could you imagine how stupid the 'Thief' series of games would be if you automatically became visible when you opened a door (I know its a different game but the principle is the same). Hopefully this isn't just some contrivance by the devs because there are far better ways for them to make such things harder just by placing lights by doors, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cram Brewer
I'd guess opening doors breaks stealth in order to stop sneakers from skipping encounters and trivialising some of the dungeons but it seems a very heavy-handed way of going about it. There are plenty of optional encounters that you can stealth through. If they want to force you to fight a particular mob, they just need to have it drop a key for the door it's guarding or make it an essential quest objective.



They don't even have to do that. Like I have said if it important for some reason to make it very hard or (god forgive) totally impossible to sneal past an area all they have to do is increase the lighting in the area and place at least one sentry mob there by making it highly likely that you will be spotted, raising the alarm and therefore breaking stealth in a logical way. If this method of breaking stealth was intentional (ie. opening a door) is an unnecessary contrivance. So to clear this up again I am not disputing the fact that the devs intentional want to stop people stealthing in certain areas, the point is this is not the best way of doing it.

Dylath, I agree with you. Opening doors should not automatically break stealth. I think that your solutions (increased spot and listen checks or guards that are nigh-on impossible to sneak past) are far more eloquent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cram Brewer
Dylath, I agree with you. Opening doors should not automatically break stealth. I think that your solutions (increased spot and listen checks or guards that are nigh-on impossible to sneak past) are far more eloquent.



I've no problem with this....

Kobold 1: Hey, that door just opened!
Kobold 2: Did Ralph just come back with the newspaper then?
Kobold 1: No, haven't seen him and usually you can hear his claws on the stone floor as he never keeps them trimmed, that clippety scratching really annoys me. Damn bohemian if you ask me.
Kobold 2: Err, right. Guess it must have been the wind in this warehouse then. Amazing how it manages to blow hard enough to lift the latch and make the door swing open without a creak.

Okay, I think you get the picture

[Carel]

As I posted to the link above...:


"As always, for me the key in such matters lies in the original D&D rules. Now to be honest I know little of the rules of 3rd edition so my reply will be given according to 2nd edition, while I imagine that in such a matter it won't be much different from 3rd.

Apart from rules though, I believe my response makes sense due to logic.

The move silently skill was never ment to be exclusively related for moving around while hidden in shadows. It's initial role is exactly as it sounds:to move silently :P In case you don't want to be heard doing anything, a "move silently" role is made. Whether that is to walk around unheard, pick a lock, pick a bag full of coins without a single "ding" heard or even open a drawer and remove every single coin and jewlery inside, with the owner sleeping less than 2feet away, "move silently" is the way to do it. It is exactly that that a rogue is trained to do. Difficulty of the role would vary according to the occasion ofcourse.


In the case of doors now, I agree with the previous posters stating that difficulty of sneaking should be raised when opening a door, with a check roll shown to the screen. That seems to be the most appropriate way in a computer game. However one must keep in mind that a rogue (at least a good rogue) would NEVER open a door in such a manner, blasting it open. He would try to detect any noises from behind and act accordingly. Then, he would probably open just a bit of the door to glimpse inside and wait for the right moment before he opens it just eough for him to sneak inside, walk to the other room and close the door again without be seen or heard.


As for the "well that way you could go through a whole dungeon without been seeing" argument, well...that's what rogues are about. And let us not forget that even if/when highly unlikely to be seen or heard, only a stupid rogue would try to walk a whole dungeon on his own, hoping or trusting that he will not be seen. In the first failed roll, he would be dead in a minute. More over, animals and monsters with other senses than just hearing and seeing, exist in almost every dungeon. I don't think that i.e. a kobold would keep a hungry wolf by it's side (probably one that would occasonally eat a couple of them if feeling like it) if not knowing that they are neccessary to hear and smell what they can't.

So, as stated before, there are other ways of preventing a rogue from walking a whole dungeon than having to break stealth while opening doors. And even if they are not as succesful, well, let's say that a rogue actually manages to walk to the end of the dungeon. Then what?He will take the items for the whole party?Kill a boss on his own?Free prisoners without been seeing or heard?No. There is no reason why I rogue couldn't walk a whole dungeon without been seen or heard, if the type of the dungeon permits it. He would accomplish nothing more than doing his role:scout for the rest of the party."

[Jarret]

I agree. My first serious use of stealth skills was on the quest stealthy repossession or something like that in the harbour. I was a little confused at first, as to why my character kept getting spotted until I realised that every time I opened a door or pulled a lever / switch, it was cancelling stealth mode.

This made the Hide and Move Silently skills a little pointless except for combat reasons (Sneak Attack). So I agree characters should stay hidden when performing certain actions.

[Daneic]

I concur that opening a door shouldnt automatically break stealth.

[Meowin]

I agree with the OP that lowering the DC for enemies (should not be too much work, since a similar mechanism is implemented for lighted spots - eyes indicator?) would be a great solution, however, I think that in most cases careful movement and having an eye on the guards can also prevent you from being spotted, especially in "stealthy reposession".