V8 Supercars are biased

[MinusZero]

Hi,

yes i am a Ford fan and no i dont like Holdens...but there are far too many inconsistencies in the V8 supercars.

Even if i was a Holden fan i would deem it unfair how the Avesco officials judge some things in racing. Here are a few points i would like to make.

At Bathurst today (13/10) there were so many things that could be deemed as unfair for both
makes of car. But more so in the Ford Camp

1. Radisich (Ford) hits Ellery - half a lap later he gets a drive through penalty.

2. Rick Kelly I think(Holden) pushes Perkins off at the chase - Kelly has the chance to
rectify positions and move behind Perkins...Why no drive through penalty? It has happened
for pushes like this in other races.

3. Pace Car debarcle early in the race picking up the car in 15th, Glen Seton (Ford) when
it should have picked up the leader. Yes i know the leader pitted, but why was the leader
not picked up anyway and the cars between the waved through to get onto the back of the
pack? Both Kim Jones (Ozemail Ford Boss) and Garth Tander (Holden) disagreed with the
Avesco decision.

4. Mark Skaife (Holden) dropping fluid on the track - Not black flagged, no oil or fluid
flags shown.

5. I have never heard of a 5 minute penalty for something like what happened to Greg Murphy
(Holden) in pit lane. I thought it was a bit harsh, even though it was a dangerous
situation involving fuel being spread over the track.

6. After Greg Murphy's (Holden) misfortunes he managed to put the car in a prime position
to hold up Perkins (Holden) to stop him making a charge at the HRT cars. As mentioned in
the next point, HRT and Kmart racing are under the same TWR banner.

-----------------------

7. At Canberra this year Todd Kelly (Holden) was not shown the bad sportsmanship flag for
clearly holding up Craig Lowndes (Ford) - was a bit suspicious since the Kmart car and the
HRT (which was in front) are both under the TWR banner.

8. Going back a few years when Glen Seton (Ford) won the championship - The Fords were
dominating and were modified to slow them down. Holden have been running riot for years
with no big changes to even the field.

As you can see there are things against both makes. More so against Ford. Avesco need to
get their act together as some of their decisions are just ridiculous, unfair and
inconsistant.

All this adds up to a bias against Ford or even a bias towards cars under the TWR banner. Some may say since i am a Ford fan it is sour grapes, but the facts cannot be denied. :mad:

[imported_JacK]

Gee, whinge whinge whinge. Most of your points are a bit off, I have to say.
1. Radasich deserved a drive through penalty, he turfed off Ellery, and there was no way he could recify te situation, because Ellery was so far back after the spin.

2. This has been going on for quite some time you know, an happens a lot when someone unfairly makes a pass. It is something I believe they are trying to put in to reduce drive thru penalties, which are far worse than the crime in these cases.

3. Apparently they are not obligated to do this when the leader pits from behind the safety car; and just as many holdens got screwed over as fords. Tander for one. It is stupid, but, hey, thems the rules.

4. That's gotta be a joke, black flag someone on the closing laps of Bathurst? Wow, that's cold.

5. The Murphy thing could have caused a very serious incident, the petrol coul easily have ignited and exploded, and could have caused serious injury and even deaths. But I'll admit a stop/go with a ginormous fine would've been more appropriate.

7. I believe that was a race for position (though only people nursing a grudge can remember back THAT far! :D ) But whats wrong with blocknig people towards the end of the race? You suggesting he let him thru? (If it wasn't a race for position, I apologize)

8. The Fords were modified because there bodywork was underweight. Something in the door frame I thikn, if my memory serves correct. And then Holden had the same thing done to them, and now the cars have the same length spoilers.

But that's just my opinion, my views, on those points, and I'm entitled to them, just as you are entitled to your opinion.

Don't know about six though, have to see it again some time. Though I didn't think murph was doing that much holding up, and even if he was, perkins is old and slow anywayz( :D )

[Unit]

I must say that the governing bodies have been biased towards Total ****ers Racing (TWR) for quite some time, about the lightweight panels that the Fords were using in '95, Everyone is using them now, all it is is that they cut out the internal panelling. But as long as they are over 1350 kg its legal. The penalty given to the Fords was 200mm (20 cm) off the undertray of the nose cone, the Holdens had 20mm (2cm) off. The tray may be the same but the body shapes are completely different that is why the Ford still don't have enough downforce. And to say there is no performance advantage to Holden is ridiculous (Top 5 at Bathurst) although the lead Ford teams had bad luck all day, only one of the problems was driver error.

[Hysider]

My question is why wasnt Skaife black flagged for being next to Richards at the start finish after the last restart ?? I though you had to be single file til after the start/finish line ??

And I agree, losing fluid on the track has been black flagged before.

[Squal]

You said:
5. I have never heard of a 5 minute penalty for something like what happened to Greg Murphy
(Holden) in pit lane. I thought it was a bit harsh, even though it was a dangerous
situation involving fuel being spread over the track.

I think it may be unfair to the driver, as it was not his fault, however, the penalty is for the whole team which includes the pit crew who made the mistake. It could have been a very dangerous situation... image what would have happened if the fuel went everywhere and ignited? I think the harsh penalty will help make them realise just how careful they should be.

[MinusZero]

nice to see some people are on my side. i didnt know what sort of storm this post would create.


[quote] 4. That's gotta be a joke, black flag someone on the closing laps of Bathurst? Wow, that's cold. <hr></blockquote>
It may be cold as you put it, but murphy's incident was in the pits where no one else was effected. Skaife was pouring liquid all over the track where everyone could have been effected. It seems to me in some situations it is one rule for TWR, another for everyone else.

[quote] 7. I believe that was a race for position (though only people nursing a grudge can remember back THAT far! ) But whats wrong with blocknig people towards the end of the race? You suggesting he let him thru? (If it wasn't a race for position, I apologize) <hr></blockquote>

I think you will find it went on for just about the entire race or at least half of it.

everyone is always going to have their own opinions. ford fans will think fords are hard done by and holden fans will somehow dispute that.

There was some dispute by Murphy after the race saying how the stone brothers team pulled down a fuel boom a few years ago and didnt get a penalty. but nothing was spilt.

[imported_JacK]

With the overtaking Richards at the start line bit, they must be single file at the TIMING line, where each lap starts. This is under the bridge, way behind the start line.

And yeah, youre probably right, holden fans like me think there doing an all right jobs, although sometimes everyone gets screwed over, think back Skaife at Wanneroo, in WA, that was total crud that stuff I believe, as I think the OzEmail team was hard done by at Qld 500

Think we will all have to wait until next year where Project Blueprint may have some effect on evening out the field.
I am a Holden fan, but I must say I like the look of the Barra in racing kit ( looks tough ).
Cant wait for the VY model to come out.

[swardsie]

i dont think this is gonna be a good thing this blueprint. in theory the fastest guy should be at the front after qualifyin and if they r gonna so close how will any pass

Hi there, my old man works at a ford dealership here in NZ and is about to take delivery of a new XR6 Barra Turbo. Also he told me awile ago that next years V8 series will be much closer as the new barra will have much better handeling than the AU3 does. Also I agree with Misfit, the new Barra does look tough, that's because it is. As for the holden teams next year, well they should probably not waste their time by turning up, Cause they are only going to lose. They should just stay home.

[MinusZero]

I agree the new Falcon looks unreal. Cant wait to see the power of the new GT, supposedly in excess of 300kw.

I only wish Ford would bring back the 351 for it... *sigh*

look i'm a holden fan, but i must agree with all of u ford fans, fords were treated unfairly on race day at bathurst, i live in bathurst, but yeah, so unfair.

[jopaul]

the cars are the f***ing same so stop whining . Have a look at the best holden lap time at bathurst and the best ford lap time .010 of a second the difference so get your head out of the brown hole and start to find the real reason ford are losing ! RELIABILTY AND DRIVER ERRORS as the old sayimg goes " to finish first first you have to finish "

[swardsie]

im a holden fan but feel sorry for lowndes. 1 plastic bag ruins there day yet hrt have bout 6 bags and they win!

[MinusZero]

jopaul, just because there is 0.01 difference in lap times it means nothing. makes no difference how quick they can do it over one lap but over a whole race.

perhaps is it the design of the car that makes it so, but the ford just cant keep it up over a race distance.

so as you put it, stick your head in your big brown whole and think about why i posted the topic.

no where in my original posting did i talk about lap times the issue was ruling biases and rough decisions.

[quote]Originally posted by MinusZero:
It may be cold as you put it, but murphy's incident was in the pits where no one else was effected. Skaife was pouring liquid all over the track where everyone could have been effected. It seems to me in some situations it is one rule for TWR, another for everyone else.<hr></blockquote>

You are just looking at it the wrong way, you have made it slightly biased towards GM and against MS. You could also say that the Greg Murphy incident could have effected many very badly, and the Mark Skaife incident didnt effect anyone.

Im not doing it just for the sake of correcting you, but just because its not a very good point to make.

And i understand your pain, i am a holden supporter, the problem is, they seem fast sometimes, but they just slow when you least expect it.

Tom.

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: twig ]</p>

[MinusZero]

[quote] You are just looking at it the wrong way, you have made it slightly biased towards GM and against MS. You could also say that the Greg Murphy incident could have effected many very badly, and the Mark Skaife incident didnt effect anyone. <hr></blockquote>

it is true that mark skaife's incident didnt affect anyone. greg murphys only affected himself.

however, i am sure that in all forms of motorsport, if a vehicle is leaking fluid it is black flagged and called into the pits.

If people only new what went on behind the scenes.

For starters when the fords where dominating back in the early 90's ford came up with the gurners lip which is a lip added to the rear wing.Cams said no that they can't use it and about one month later they allowed the holdens to use it which allowed them to make a come back to the championship.
No such thing for the fords when holdens are dominating.

**** Johnsons 17 xd floging the commodore's till a bad sport holden fan did the rock thing.
How many times have the lead fords been taken out or held up and not to mention the penalities like Lowndes's yellow flag pass on murphy as murphy was leaving pit lane, the yellow line this year.skaife crossed the yellow line plus more at a later event and nothing said but i suppose him ending in the sand was justice.Funny though how kelly takes lowndes out just after skaife hits the sand.
Bowe's drive through at willowbank.

look at the black sierra's disqualified for wheel arch mods,nothing done about illegal cylinder heads used by twr 2000 bathurst.There was a complaint made but the officals kept delaying it till after the hour had passed to lodge the complaint.

Back to current,there has been a frontal down force test performed on both cars which came up as 60kg to front of commodore and 16kg on the falcon.
In my book that makes the falcons and their drivers very good to even be competitive with the commodores.A classic of the difference was the konica lite's where the falcon would give the commodore a 5 car length head start onto conrod and pass the commodore but only to be realed back in the chase.So what do you think would be winning if they had the same amount of down force.in performance buildups 8.2 a v8 supercar engine builder explains how the holdens are only just getting close to the hp that the fords have.

Here is a bit about how the holdens can be sucessfull.In 1972 hdt under harry firth used illegal alloy cylinder blocks and coated them in the red factory paint for brocks xu1, this can be read in(the xu1 that should have been better in australian muscle car 4)plus have a read of how good the road going xu1's where in (the check before the cheque)same mag. i laugh my head of as the xu1 is as bad as the gen3 commodores as i work for a holden parts warehouse and i can tell you that in the 3 and a bit years i have been there that i have seen around 20 warrenty engines come through and thousands of rings , pistons, conrods and it does not stop there.

Please have a read of wheels mag november 02 section aussie brawls how the falcons win four from four.
can anybody tell me how long it took gmh to make more hp/kw than a gtho phase 3. from what i understand 30 years.

how many f1 races have holden won(ford cossworth most successfull f1 engine)

how many rally championships.

how many indy championships.

most successfull australian race car is pete geoghegan's 289 windsor powered mustang which won 68 races from 74 starts.

you also have moffats trans-am mustang with 101 wins from 157 starts.

please don't cry it's not your fault if you holden fanatic's are feed crap.

I hope you have seen the light as many a holden person has according to wheels scream & shout.

ford rule truly not pretenders like holden.
as the ute ad tunes done dirt cheap.

I forgot to mention how the ford gt40's kicked ferrari's butt.
this was just a short experiment to show how good ford is and to stick it to ferrari from not selling out to them.

[ October 31, 2002: Message edited by: gtho351 ]</p>

[MinusZero]

Nice stuff gtho351.

As an avid ford supporter i love your facts. :)

Dont forget the kicka$$ Shelby Cobra, what a beast that is.

I think the GTHO Phase III is still actually quicker than the current (Street) Commondores.

I wish Ford would revive the 351.

[imported_JacK]

To your facts I say; meh. A wise man once said "Facts can be made to say anything." and they can.

Like 99% of users of Hard drugs used cannabis. so if you use cannabis you'll go on to harder drugs. But then 1% of peoplz who use cannabis go on to harder drugs.

But that's just an example. Your 'facts' still don't change the fact that the Ford teams suck. Give them Holdens and HRT fords the results will not change, HRT will still win. It is the team, not the car that makes the difference. Plus that 60 to 16 figure sounds a bit hard to believe. If the cars were that bad, w/o serious advantages elsewhere, they would be further back.


Anyhowzmin, aboot the complaints aboot officialing, gee did surfers reek of holden bias.
I mean, a stop go for curb hopping, when Longhurst and ford co were all over them like bad smells. And then no stop go for lowndes after he gave tander a huge chop in a straight line, and did some other passing under yellows. That was all in favour of holden. Of course.

[go holden]

JUST FACE IT FORD ARE HOPELESS

you holden drug abusers should go and have a look at http://www.sportal.com.au/v8x.asp?i=newsarchive this is where you could learn a few things about who gets penalised for what and the mention of the down force difference's from one of the columns done by henry.
don't you just like it when bright can shunt ingall up the rear going into pit and then into the wall after and get away with it scott free at surfers.
tander is so full of sh*t about lowndes pasting under yellow as if this did occur he for sure would have been given a stop go.
just look at how sh*t his car's handling was before and after the pass. and if he could have held lowndes up he would have done so just like he held up ambrose and bowe up at willowbank from which bowe ended up with a stop go even though tander had locked his front going into t1 before bowe tapped him.

so when you holden uses can point me in the direction that shows a holden is truly better i will conceive defeat.

please stay off the drugs they are not good for your thinking.

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: gtho351 ]

[ November 05, 2002: Message edited by: gtho351 ]

[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: gtho351 ]</p>

[MinusZero]

[quote]Originally posted by go holden:
JUST FACE IT FORD ARE HOPELESS<hr></blockquote>

This is based on...what?

you cant judge a car by how it races. my family has owned every variant of the falcon at one time or another and several commodores. every commodore has been a bucket of crap. yes it did work ok for a few years, but when it started to go downhill, it really did it in a big way with major problems.

the fords on the other hand...not a problem. we had a 351 LTD that used less fuel than the VN 3.8 V6....yeah holdens are much better *cough cough splutter* give me a break.

what about the new XR6t that at around $42000 does about equal time from 0-100 as the $90000+ top of the line HSV GTS.....yeah holdens are much better *cough cough splutter*

i think i made my point

[imported_JacK]

Riigghttt, Bright got off with nothing for his incedent with ingall. So 20 points isn't a penalty? It must have been to his advantage somehow. . .

And OF COURSE Tander had poor handling after the pass, having your steering arm bent in a collision with Lowndes will do that to you. He was going fine b4 it, catching Lowndes.

And to your how-good-fords-are-speech; everyone I know who has owned Fords has had nothing but s*** with them. To hear a Ford supporter telling me how messed up Ford are is sweet music to my ears. You can't seriously tell me the company is not seriously messed up with a straight face, can you? The top management at Ford are so useless, I don't know how they got the job. Nasser was a stooge, and the people around him were stoogz. Thew whole company both sucks and blows. I mean, look at their formula one team. It is so screwed.Lauda tried to sign Newey, and he almost got fired for it. The team is totally stuffed; and anyone who leaves their is relieved the instant they hit the door.

GM, on the other hand, are going from strength to strength.
We've had two Holdens, and I know other peoplz who between them have owned every model commodore except VY, and have had no trouble with them at all.

So, in conclusion, Ford is dodgy.

i see holdens wrc /nascar / formula 1 /indy teams are doing exceptionally well this season.
i know of 8 vt commodores with rooted steering racks ,and have supplied over 6 engine reco kits for the 304 over last 2 months .as for the 3.8
what a lemon .lets get holden involved in the other forms of motorsport and see how many bucks they have to throw around.lets face it ,being in the parts business holdens are great for the industry.. (note:those steering problems happened
in first 5000km).could be worse we could all drive skylines or si civics

cheers dave

jack 20 points for bright and larry perkins gets 30 points off for contact with max wilson,1 offence to bright's hitting russel entering the 40kph pit entry and taking russel out by putting him into the wall,something stinks.

davo d yes that is something i missed.
we do stock plenty of steering racks for the commodore.
also a friend told me about a guy he works with that had purchased a commodore gen3 and 2 mths down the track the motor died.he then was given a new motor which ended up using oil,he returned it so they could rering it but it continued to use oil, gmh them pulled the motor down to find that the block had been incorrectly bored,gmh then replaced it with a new higher out put gen3 with 5 years warrenty.
the guy was then pulled over by the police to which they found no engine numbers and inpounded the car till all checks were done.
the car had to be fitted with department of transport I.D plates.
i pitty this guy when it comes time to sell it.

i would have told gmh to stick the car right where it fit's (hrt driver's nose)
you all know who i am talking about.

now wouldn't be funny if the commodore's used the motor that the car comes out with.

apparently the gen 3 blocks are throw aways as you can't rebore them, and a new one is suspose to
cost somewhere between 3 and 4 grand.

i hope ford run the turbo xr6 in the gtp as if you have read november motor mag you would hear how it disappears from the ss from out of corners.
so if it can do that to a ss i reckon it will probably beat the 300kw gts as well unless procar handicap the falcon as what they did to the mustang of bowe's.
xr6 turbo 14.1 over the quarter with a measly 6 psi.
the base model falcon makes 182kw as to the supercharged monaro's 171kw.
these people that own these monaro's had better not try to pick on a falcon taxi as it could end in tears.


:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[ November 14, 2002: Message edited by: gtho351 ]</p>

Hasn't Commodore outsold Falcon for the last 60 consecutive months?
Nuff said.

[kayman]

"5. I have never heard of a 5 minute penalty for something like what happened to Greg Murphy
(Holden) in pit lane. I thought it was a bit harsh, even though it was a dangerous
situation involving fuel being spread over the track."

Ahem, Rule B.6.7.12 "excessive fuel spill" impliments anywhere up to a five minute penalty. Brock also was penalised, but only for one minute, in the same race.

Some where you also said that nothing has been done to modify the holdens to make fairer compitition, that is true, BUT, the holden's front airdamn and bumper design was integrated into the fords.

I follow HRT, and ok, i would have to agree that it is getting a bit ridiculous. hopefully Next year lowndes can take it to the new commo with his BA falcon. :)

brock

the commodore's haven't won it all what about the ute's ford has won that for some time now.
and look at the mustang in the states it out sold gm's camaro and ponitac combined 3 to 1 hence the end of the camaro.
the quad cammed v8 has been used in the states for close to 10 years.so if ford australia started using this motor earlier instead of getting rid of old stock windsor's commodore would probably be no more either.
but this is now past anyway and us ford people can enjoy very good years to come starting with best family car in australia and best performance car under $57 000. and with the gt coming at a price of $65 000 to $70 000 apossed to the gts of $90 000 i know what i would buy and i bet that many others would agree with the choice of the GT.
there would also be the falcon ute which will take out the ute catagory too and not to mention europe's most popular small car the focus which will trample the beep beep.

KAYMAN
the downforce test was done just prior to the qld 500 where it had been said that they made some changes to the falcon by making the front the same as commodore but this did not help.the ford needed to have one that suited the falcon and cams would not allow them to do so.
earlier in the season the fords where allowed to add some more length to the under tray to which is still not as long as the commodore.
it will be good to see what blueprint brings and if what they say is true that all cars will be competitive my money will be on ambrose.

[gtr69]

Can someone explain this Holden v Ford thing?

Each one has made good and bad cars, why can't you just take them for what they are, not the badge?


(Anything Korean excepted ;) )

[Unit]

The Holden vs Ford thing is just like any other sport. Like The Magpies v Blues in AFL, Sharks v Dragons in NRL. No one ever says that why do you support a particular team, cheer for them for there merits. If anyone say that about those two sports they would be laughed at. Same thing goes here your either a Ford or Holden fan (unless you go for Craig Lowndes apparently).

Now about the quality of Ford v Holden. So far in my experience a Falcon is much better than a bombadore, why? I own an EA Fairmont auto and the shift quality of my car is better than the VX II SS auto ute. That's pretty bad. Also i friend of mine who has always been a ford man decided to buy Holden because Ford were too far behind power wise :( He bought the VT II Gen III SS and after 2 months the clutch failed, but must say he is one of the hardest drivers Ive ever seen, he had that for 8 months and got jack of it and bought a VX to see if there was any improvement, he got rid of it after 4 months because the clutch kept blowing.
Whereas when the EF was first released in 94 he bought an XR6 and the only problem he had with that was a holed radiator. He had this car for 3 or 4 years. This thing copt an absolute flogging then the bloke he sold it too was just as tough and it never missed a beat.

[Brock no1]

All this complaining about Fords losing out all the time is irrelevent. Project Blueprint comes into effect next yr and ford will have its new Ba falcon on the race track. By the way take twr out of the championship and guess who would have won this yrs championship convincingly....Marcus Ambrose...thats right his a ford driver.

[Unit]

This has been the point ive made for a long time. Its not a Holden is better than Ford thing, its a TWR domination. As I said before take TWR out and the championship would have been excellent. Or even just take Skaife out and it still was pretty close.

[Johno]

Yeah, keep winging you Ford guys. The same thing happend in F1. Everyone is winging about the Ferrari dominance.

People seemed to forget that it had been a long long time since Ferrari had won a race before this latest resurgence.

The same goes for the TWR domination. Look back a few years ago, the Holden Racing Team were not so dominant in the championship and their Bathurst record was not great.

Ambrose proved that the Fords had the pace this year with the amount of poles he had. Had a quick look through the stats, Holden 7 poles to Fords 6 with Skaife and Ambrose 5 each (with the last round Ford were 1,2 and 3 on the grid).

Next season will be very interesting indeed, no more complaining boys.

[Brock no1]

What i find interesting is how ford fans say the Ford cant be competitive over long distances, but At bathurst the longest race of all they are extremly competitive!, if it wasnt for bad luck Fords were going to win for the last couple of yrs at bathurst.

[Johno]

Yeah, true Brocky.

[Unit]

Bathurst id a different kettle of fish, the Fords usually went better there was because it was not as hard on the rear tyres as other circuits. Have a look at all the venues at which Ford won a race this year. Phillip Island, Queensland and Sandown. These tracks don't have the affect on rear tyres as the rest do.

[Brock no1]

Sorry Unit i gotta disagree on that one. Phillip Island is known to be the most difficult circuit on tyres, they get worn very badly there, just ask any of the drivers. It has very high speed corners causing a lot of load to be put on tyres causing more wear. Remember how much ambrose had to defend against skaife due to his tyres being fried from how hard he had been driving? Bathurst has a huge effect on tyres as well, anyone notice the amount of tyre blowouts this yr and every other yr?. Fords had other opertunities to win but through bad luck and bad strategies havnt capitalised on them. Canberra a circuit completly different to those u mentioned unit....Lowndes was on course to win but stopped due to infringement leaving pitlane. I do agree that fords setups cause alot of wear in the rear BUT i dont believe it makes them uncompetitive. I believe it is to do with the teams.

[Johno]

You have gotta admit that since Lowndes moved to Ford he has made some bad mistakes racing wise, as if he is trying too hard. I seem to remember, I think in his first year with them at the Adelaide race. He came together with a couple of drivers, I think it was Skaife the last one where he came off second best.

With Ambrose, it's no good being quick at qualifying and then come race day make mistakes or bad strategic moves.

I do agree some of the Ford guys, like John Bowe have had some bad luck with other drivers running into them.

yo

just to clarfiy a point from minuszero

in canberra this year todd kelly was given a bad sportsmanship flag for holding up craig lowndes, i was the official who called it in and it was acted upon

thanks