Anything said about Hunter fix?

[Turukano]

Has any Dev/Turbine-guy said something about (when/how) 'fixing' hunters?
This thread is not for talking about what's needed to fix or if they need to be fixed at all, enough other threads for that.

Any links?
Thanks.

[Scatha the Worm]

No, there's nothing. Official response from devs is officially missing in a very official way.

[Belechael]

This is the last thread in the Turbine forum I could find We need dev representation here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=269958), and if you read Sapience's reply things are not promising for us or any other class that does not have a dev assigned.

And yes, some classes do have devs, like the RKs and I think the burgs have ZC, and the wardens have Graal.

[agoracy_]

This is the last thread in the Turbine forum I could find We need dev representation here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=269958), and if you read Sapience's reply things are not promising for us or any other class that does not have a dev assigned.

And yes, some classes do have devs, like the RKs and I think the burgs have ZC, and the wardens have Graal.

I've been reading to that some time ago and looks like Sapience avoids offering a plain truth. It's quite obvious that DD is no longer around here, don't know why they are trying to hide this from us though.

I don't see with good eyes this lack of transparency, after all, we are all customers and we need to know what is happening... Oh well.. Get used to surprises and look at the bright side: - no more nerfs for hunters in B8...

[MéLAnoR]

DD and hakai already left turbine.

[Divona]

I also noticed that after some old Turbine devs left some time ago, game slowly going downhill.

Book 7-8 is the proof how bad things can go and quite fast. Dont get your hopes high with book 9 as i am very sure that they focus mainly atm with new expansion that will have competiton with new Star Wars mmo coming early next year.

[agoracy_]

I also noticed that after some old Turbine devs left some time ago, game slowly going downhill.

Book 7-8 is the proof how bad things can go and quite fast. Dont get your hopes high with book 9 as i am very sure that they focus mainly atm with new expansion that will have competiton with new Star Wars mmo coming early next year.

Ohh, great, now we will see light sabers for champs and phasers for hunters!

[Scatha the Worm]

I also noticed that after some old Turbine devs left some time ago, game slowly going downhill.

Book 7-8 is the proof how bad things can go and quite fast. Dont get your hopes high with book 9 as i am very sure that they focus mainly atm with new expansion that will have competiton with new Star Wars mmo coming early next year.

If this poor quality remains, I'll probably be moving on as soon as another game shows up. SWTOR has good chances to be that game, but time will tell.

[nightbyday]

#giggle yep no nerf to hunter... well they couldn't could they, except some of the mobs are immune to common damage making some damage hunters do usless.

I noticed alot of RK's breathing a sigh of relief when they realised the dps nerf was not that bad, LM's braggng about insane dame on march of the ents and minstrel mumbling at thier dps loss. Champs seem to be really struggling with the change.

[Telaron70]

I haven't seen even the slightest hint anywhere from Turbine that acknowledges there is even a teeny-weeny little problem with Hunters.

Despite the huge reaction over book 7 "balancing" the only reaction I've seen is "Post some numbers if you think you have an issue" which was subsequently done and then apparently ignored. Now I am not so paranoid as to think they actually hate us & want us to have a bad time, but we are far from being the focus of their attention as we are presumably not leaving the game in droves.

Nothing will change until the next expansion/overhaul of the combat system.

[Llewrend]

Please, the trap icon is now red. That should satisfy everyone. Stop whining and enjoy the red icon. Red! RED!?

So, yeah.

[Eikinskialdi]

Most grapic chances they did are more of an eyesore then something that I welcome.

[Telaron70]

Please, the trap icon is now red. That should satisfy everyone. Stop whining and enjoy the red icon. Red! RED!?

Aww... now you've told everyone it's bound to get nerfed. Mark my words, creep whining will get it changed to PINK :D

[nightbyday]

Please, the trap icon is now red. That should satisfy everyone. Stop whining and enjoy the red icon. Red! RED!?

So, yeah.

Yep and i keep clicking the damn yellow snare icon when i want a trap...

Actually this proves the logic of DEV... most used 'trap skill' lets change that icon... insted of the least use.

anyway if you need chearing up go to the RK forums and watch as some of the players thier cry 'Broken class' are dps is down by 10% we can heal any more WAHHHH!!!! Hunters are better than us and we were supposed to be thier equals or better WAHHhhhhh!!

:D


Best part of book8 was i no longer look like a wizard with a wand.

[Emli]

anyway if you need chearing up go to the RK forums and watch as some of the players thier cry 'Broken class' are dps is down by 10% we can heal any more WAHHHH!!!! Hunters are better than us and we were supposed to be thier equals or better WAHHhhhhh!!
.

Nice tip, RK's did the same with hunter forums in book 7 :)

[OMWiener]

Nice tip, RK's did the same with hunter forums in book 7 :)

ye but we're not a hybrid class...

[Emli]

ye but we're not a hybrid class...

And neither is the RK, Captains are the Lotro hybrids, healing and DPS-ing at the same time.
RK's are a glass cannon with a secondary role of healing.

[agoracy_]

And neither is the RK, Captains are the Lotro hybrids, healing and DPS-ing at the same time.
RK's are a glass cannon with a secondary role of healing.

You just gave the definition of a hybrid class...Because this is a hybrid class, you have a primary role, but your secondary role is(was:D) almost as good as your first one. I've did countless instances (GS/FT) with RK healing... And trust me, the RK I used to group with was a total newbie... Can't speak about RK healer after book8, never grouped with one since it was out.

[OMWiener]

And neither is the RK, Captains are the Lotro hybrids, healing and DPS-ing at the same time.
RK's are a glass cannon with a secondary role of healing.

No that's what you want them to be. The devs clearly stated a runekeeper is a hyrbid class. It's funny that everyone actually rolled an RK to be good at dps....Some even refuse to go healing

[Emli]

No that's what you want them to be. The devs clearly stated a runekeeper is a hyrbid class. It's funny that everyone actually rolled an RK to be good at dps....Some even refuse to go healing

You may have to go check your facts, Rune-keepers were described as Glass cannons from the start, it's the players that started to call them hybrids because they have a skillset for healing and DPSing. What's funny about rolling a RK to be good at DPS when the class is described as a Glass cannon, yeah some refuse to go healing but these are the new FoTM RK's , they shouldn't be around for long.

[Emli]

You just gave the definition of a hybrid class...Because this is a hybrid class, you have a primary role, but your secondary role is(was:D) almost as good as your first one. I've did countless instances (GS/FT) with RK healing... And trust me, the RK I used to group with was a total newbie... Can't speak about RK healer after book8, never grouped with one since it was out.

No, it's a common fault to think that RK healing is just as good as RK dps, it's not, by far.
You bring examples of RK's being great healers because they can heal FT and GS? These can be easily healed by captains aswell and they can do DPS at the same time, heck they can be even done with no healers in the group either, it's not the RK healing that was good, it's the instances that are easy. Once the content gets harder, Dark Delvings, Watcher, Dar narbugud, you will not want a RK instead of a Minstrel as your healer.

[agoracy_]

No, it's a common fault to think that RK healing is just as good as RK dps, it's not, by far.
You bring examples of RK's being great healers because they can heal FT and GS? These can be easily healed by captains aswell and they can do DPS at the same time, heck they can be even done with no healers in the group either, it's not the RK healing that was good, it's the instances that are easy. Once the content gets harder, Dark Delvings, Watcher, Dar narbugud, you will not want a RK instead of a Minstrel as your healer.

You were comparing RK with hunters. I did the same by comparing hunter secondary role with RK secondary role. It is true that DPS RK is way better than healing RK (and I don't think I've ever said RK is as good as a healer as it is on DPS) but you have a viable secondary role while hunters CC is laughable as it is now. Let's not get other classes into discussion since you insist to visit our forum and moaning all the time about RK/hunter good and bad points. There are also other instances that can be easily done with a RK on your side (as healer), FT and GS were the first examples that passed through my mind.

You've mentioned DD, I just completed that one for the first time since I play this game. It was almost impossible ti'll we got a RK in our group. He was able to help me with the adds (while I was struggling on inductions) and also able to throw small (but very important) heals from time to time. See the difference now? To be honest, I would never go to DD with my hunter because the last boss (hard mode) made me feel like a slow poke and I felt like I was totally useless in that group.

[OMWiener]

The healing of the RK is underestimated. We did all the instances with RK healing no problem. Seriously when the class came out you were all like: we just have to be second on ST damage. Now that you are actually first on ST damage, you say: "ye but we're supposed to be that & we're not hybrid" blatantly ignoring the fact that you are hybrid. Sorry you're still trying to justify a situation that isn't right. So you need to get your fact straight:

(quote from Steefel):

In pure game dynamics, Steefel says that the Runekeeper will be "...a third light armor class that offers viable healing or DPS alternatives." True to the game's "hybrid class" design philosophy, the Runekeeper is being tuned to not take the thunder away from the primary healing class (Minstrel) and will focus its DPS capabilities on nuking, particularly by the application of powerful, stackable damage-over-time effects

source: here (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/the-lord-of-the-rings-online-mines-of-moria/887242p1.html)

Again, don't nerf the RKs, they are fine They make sacrifices to be a good dpser. But so does the hunter and it should therefore be buffed a little.

[Lenin_]

Imho the "problem" with healing RKs is that many many people don't know how to heal as RK. People have the idea that once tank is lower on morale, you throw him a heal. But, RKs main source of heals are HoTs. Somewhere I read that RK is pro-active healer, and mistrel reactive, and I totaly agree with that.


The RK is a pro-active and not a re-active class. Instead of helping a player recover from taking a hit, they prepare them to take the hit in the first place. The minstrel can spit out Bolster Courage to it's heart's content, the RK is limited by the lengthy inductions on it's bigger heals. But with HoTs in place, and the ICMR buff ready, the RKs work happens before and not after like the minstrel.

And that is what many people do not consider. But that is just my opinion (I have met many bad healing rks, but also a few good ones, they can easily perform role of primary healer in most of the instances)

[Finnadan]

Again, don't nerf the RKs, they are fine They make sacrifices to be a good dpser. But so does the hunter and it should therefore be buffed a little.

Amen to that!

I have no problems with inductions in DD with my hunter, in a decent group as its just a matter of each person knowing what they are doing etc.

I have grouped with an RK and have been too busy or focused on doing the task at hand to notice if I have received RK heals. I have however, rolled an RK recently and have had very few issues soloing or grouping so far, with the best being myself and to other (kin) RK's doing B1 C11 without a problem. Ultimately it boils down to how flexible you are with your class, how well you know your class as not everyone at level 60 knows how to play.

[Emli]

You were comparing RK with hunters. I did the same by comparing hunter secondary role with RK secondary role. It is true that DPS RK is way better than healing RK (and I don't think I've ever said RK is as good as a healer as it is on DPS) but you have a viable secondary role while hunters CC is laughable as it is now. Let's not get other classes into discussion since you insist to visit our forum and moaning all the time about RK/hunter good and bad points. There are also other instances that can be easily done with a RK on your side (as healer), FT and GS were the first examples that passed through my mind.

You've mentioned DD, I just completed that one for the first time since I play this game. It was almost impossible ti'll we got a RK in our group. He was able to help me with the adds (while I was struggling on inductions) and also able to throw small (but very important) heals from time to time. See the difference now? To be honest, I would never go to DD with my hunter because the last boss (hard mode) made me feel like a slow poke and I felt like I was totally useless in that group.


I wouldn't call hunter CC laughable, the roots/traps can be really usefull and can be used without going deep in the trapper line. For example Root pulls in 16th hall, Dark Delvings and Hall of Crafting make things much easier. Yeah other instances can be healed by RK's aswell but those are just as easy and can be done with a captain or no healing class at all, half of the 6 mans have been done by just 2 people (GS, FG, Forges). Once the content gets more difficult and requires proper healing a RK can't keep up (DD, Watcher, DN, even the turtle to some extent as RK's are never healing that).

Yeah you completed DD with a RK in your group but that had nothing to do with his healing, it's the mechanics of the fight that make the no-induction lightning skills incredibly powerfull, meaning that a RK can easily take care of the adds while others struggle. The little preludes to hope that a RK throws from time to time are so small that you acctually heal more from your own In Combat Morale Regen.

And no I don't come to this forum to moan about RK/hunter good and bad points, I come here to counter the hate about RK's and claims of them being god-mode. Look at the post I responded to in the first place, poking fun at the RK nerf, all I did was poked the poster back with a line about the hunter nerf before it all got derailed.

[Emli]

The healing of the RK is underestimated. We did all the instances with RK healing no problem. Seriously when the class came out you were all like: we just have to be second on ST damage. Now that you are actually first on ST damage, you say: "ye but we're supposed to be that & we're not hybrid" blatantly ignoring the fact that you are hybrid. Sorry you're still trying to justify a situation that isn't right. So you need to get your fact straight:

(quote from Steefel):



source: here (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/the-lord-of-the-rings-online-mines-of-moria/887242p1.html)

Again, don't nerf the RKs, they are fine They make sacrifices to be a good dpser. But so does the hunter and it should therefore be buffed a little.

3. Address the desire for a "glass-cannon" class

Many MMO's have a class with high offensive power, but lacking in defence; a "glass-cannon." LOTRO did not ship with such a class; the Hunter wore medium armour and neither the Lore-master nor the Minstrel were offensive powerhouses.

That's from the development diary of ZC
http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdiaries/195-developer-diary-the-rune-keeper

And RK healing is not underestimated it's just not that good, the HoT's aren't very powerfull. Even if you keep up all the HoT's and spam Mending Verse (our main healing spam skill) the raw healing output you put out is much lower than a Minstrel puts out with just spamming Bolster Courage and don't even start on AoE healing, a 600-700 morale heal with a 8 second induction and 20 second cooldown is the only AoE heal, there are 2 more but one of those is a legendary and both are on a 10 minute cooldown so can be used rarely.

You did all the instances with RK healing? I doubt that you did DD with just RK healing, unless you mean pre b7 where you could just stand in the door and pew pew the boss. All other 6 mans can be done with a RK healing, I know, I've done that, but these can also be healed by captains and half of them be 2 manned, once the content gets tougher (DD and all the current raid content) RK will not be enough.

I'm not saying RK dps should be the highest with nobody coming close, but I am saying that if RK's get nerfed to be lower DPS than hunters then the RK becomes a useless class, just like it was before b7, during the whole time from launch to b7 RK's were only invited to heal 6 mans and only because there was a epic shortage of minstrels, there is no shortage of hunters so RK's will not be taken to DPS.

I'm all for giving hunters a buff, just make them equal dps (balancing nightmare) or make the damage different, like RK's being more usefull in 5+ minutes bosses where sustained DPS is more important and hunters better in shorter term damage like lower than 5 minutes bosses were burst DPS is the king. If one is worse than the other, either of them gets neglected.

[Telaron70]

Not sure why this is becoming yet another RK v Hunter debate. So someone had a little "fun" at RK expense? Nothing wrong with that at all, it isn't as though anyone here is relishing the complete obliteration of your class. In fact you are thriving, the nerf still leaves you in pole position as a dps class with an extremely viable second role.

Contrast and compare.

Take it as what it was intended as. Just a wry comparison from guys who feel a bit p1ssed off with the way our class seems to be heading and our only real current role in a group being undermined by other classes (Not only RK's btw) doing the dps thing as well if not better than us.

[Telaron70]

3.
I'm not saying RK dps should be the highest with nobody coming close, but I am saying that if RK's get nerfed to be lower DPS than hunters then the RK becomes a useless class, just like it was before b7,

Now try that sentence again but swap RK & hunter around. Maybe you will understand our point?

[Emli]

Now try that sentence again but swap RK & hunter around. Maybe you will understand our point?

Read that post again and see that I agree with you about hunters needing a buff and Suggest some fixes and still it's not quite the same, there are less RK's around so people don't bother specifically waiting for one and get a hunter who is a bit worse off now. If it was the other way round, people wouldn't need to take the worse alternative as there are a TON of hunters around, just like before b7.

[Emli]

Not sure why this is becoming yet another RK v Hunter debate. So someone had a little "fun" at RK expense? .

And I just had a little "fun" at the hunter expense, I don't know why it turned out like this,

[agoracy_]

I wouldn't call hunter CC laughable, the roots/traps can be really usefull and can be used without going deep in the trapper line. For example Root pulls in 16th hall, Dark Delvings and Hall of Crafting make things much easier. Yeah other instances can be healed by RK's aswell but those are just as easy and can be done with a captain or no healing class at all, half of the 6 mans have been done by just 2 people (GS, FG, Forges). Once the content gets more difficult and requires proper healing a RK can't keep up (DD, Watcher, DN, even the turtle to some extent as RK's are never healing that).

Yeah you completed DD with a RK in your group but that had nothing to do with his healing, it's the mechanics of the fight that make the no-induction lightning skills incredibly powerfull, meaning that a RK can easily take care of the adds while others struggle. The little preludes to hope that a RK throws from time to time are so small that you acctually heal more from your own In Combat Morale Regen.

And no I don't come to this forum to moan about RK/hunter good and bad points, I come here to counter the hate about RK's and claims of them being god-mode. Look at the post I responded to in the first place, poking fun at the RK nerf, all I did was poked the poster back with a line about the hunter nerf before it all got derailed.

I would not call hunter CC laughable, either, but you forget that I was talking and comparing the two classes when it comes up to grouping. I really enjoy my trapping/rooting/fearing skills when I am on solo.. But when it comes to grouping, I have better things to do since the lore master in my group will take care of every CC aspect of the fight..

I've never said about RK-ers being god mode, but when I've been posting some stuff on the RK forum lots of guys were amused, acting like I was a stupid n00b. All I did was to post something about not to nerf RK but to buff hunters. It's funny when you are on the top side and some other people try to comment the current situation. Things look better when you are the top DPS class.

My point and i think everybody's point on this part of the forum: Let's admit it, hunters are pretty much low on everything as they are now. When B7 was released I wasn't lvl 60 and didn't even entered Moria. Now, as an end game player, but yet, still fresh to Lotro I must tell you that I feel unhappy seing a supposed-to-be top DPS class being overruned by others, that can actually come up with something better when it comes to grouping. And I never had the ocasion to know how the things were before...

[Telaron70]

And I just had a little "fun" at the hunter expense, I don't know why it turned out like this,

Because we Hunters are very sensitive little flowers. We had a rare taste of the high life when MoM dropped & now we are lower than a snakes bum. We are like cornered rats - we bite, we scratch and we squeal.

And when work is over for the day, we quit moaning on the forums & go home to slay some Orcs just like we always did ;)

[mYhero]

I'm lucky to know a dedicated RK Healer. When we PUG into heavy AOE(Crafting halls one room at once 12~npcs) a Minstrel can't keep the Warden alive.

+No Interruptions for a certain time
+-10% Dmg transfered (Most important)
+Hots work while the RK is doing something different. (FM, stun, Adds.)

They RK had no issues counter healing up to 2 - 4k /sec dmg.
Thats more than qualified for Watcher, DN, filikul. The only Reason he doesn't heal there, is because the healing spot is already filled with a Minstrel.
Haven't meet another RK healer that good. It's Possible, a shame really.
To many RKs out there, deluding themselfs healing isn't an option.
Healing as a RK is different, once your through, you'll shine.


B2T - I'm curious if we get some fixes at Book9, doesn't look good.

[James_Ross]

B2T - I'm curious if we get some fixes at Book9, doesn't look good.

That would require them to acknowledge there are problems with the class underperforming in the first place...

[Emli]

I'm lucky to know a dedicated RK Healer. When we PUG into heavy AOE(Crafting halls one room at once 12~npcs) a Minstrel can't keep the Warden alive.

+No Interruptions for a certain time
+-10% Dmg transfered (Most important)
+Hots work while the RK is doing something different. (FM, stun, Adds.)

They RK had no issues counter healing up to 2 - 4k /sec dmg.
Thats more than qualified for Watcher, DN, filikul. The only Reason he doesn't heal there, is because the healing spot is already filled with a Minstrel.
Haven't meet another RK healer that good. It's Possible, a shame really.
To many RKs out there, deluding themselfs healing isn't an option.
Healing as a RK is different, once your through, you'll shine.


B2T - I'm curious if we get some fixes at Book9, doesn't look good.

Then it must be a bad minstrel to lose to RK healing. Their raw healing output on single targets is roughly double of RK's with just Bolster Courage spam and AOE heals are a whole different story.

The no interruptions exist for aslong as you stay at maximum attunement, but the skill comes with a massive power drain, so you really can't keep it up for long. the 10% damage transferred is a part of that skill, so again at a big power cost and the damage is only transferred not removed, the damage just moves to the RK and in massive pulls like this, do you really want the healer to be taking the damage?

Yes the HoT's keep working but the healing from RK HoT's is not big at all. Max tier writ of health is around 200 morale every 4 seconds and Prelude to hope 65 every 5 seconds and the healing stone 39 every 3 seconds. Add that up and it's roughly 300 morale every 4 seconds. Is that really going to save the tank with 12 mobs on him?

"The RK had no issues counter healing 2-4 k damage/sec" This line I just have to call bull, just add up the healing numbers and you will see it is just not possible. Around 300 morale every 4 seconds from the HoT's is 75 morale per second. Add the Mending verse spam 500 morale every 2 seconds (including the HoT effect of it ) that's 250 morale a second.
250+ 75 = 325 morale a sec. Even if using the traited 50% bubble (10 seconds of it every 1 min 30 seconds, a bit lower with legacy) the damage would still be 3-6 times over the raw healing output of the RK. Most likely your Warden was just burning his cooldowns like Eldar's Grace if he was an elf and now that I come to think of it, it was a WARDEN, it has massive AoE morale leeches, it healed itself more than the RK did most likely. And even if what you said was true about the RK single target healing (but it isn't by a long shot) the RK would still be useless in raid encounters, as the damage there is not on single target, Watcher has unavoidable AoE's that your RK will not be able to heal with his 8 second induction 700 morale heal on a 20 sec cooldown.

I know what there is to know about healing on a RK, it was all I did from Moria launch to B7, it's Good enough to deal with the easy 6 mans, but on tougher content it just isn't enough.

And about B9, there's always hope, even support classes are parsing higher on some occasions, There must be a buff soon.

[Elukriel]

i think if the devs havent acknowledged the hunters problem yet then there is an issue. however, they arent idiots and im sure they have and it just isnt a priority. bad mistake really cus im sick of being out dps'd!

[mYhero]

Then it must be a bad minstrel to lose to RK healing. Their raw healing output on single targets is roughly double of RK's with just Bolster Courage spam and AOE heals are a whole different story. Never statet differently. RK healing is sufficent enough. It does not need to excel the singel Target healing abilitys of a Minstrel. The RK is better for heavy AOE not because he can heal more, don't make things up.

The no interruptions exist for aslong as you stay at maximum attunement, but the skill comes with a massive power drain, so you really can't keep it up for long. the 10% damage transferred is a part of that skill, so again at a big power cost and the damage is only transferred not removed, the damage just moves to the RK and in massive pulls like this, do you really want the healer to be taking the damage? Been there, done it. Yes i want the RK to take the 10%. Stone and HM Hots counter healing those 10%. Sorry to break your narrow world. If it get's ugly he just has to push 1 courage to himself. While the Tank is fully ticking. Hard to figure out....

- No interruptions
In contrary to your disbelieve you don't need to keep it activated everytime.
It's a safeguard if the RK get's aggro due to the Tank not yet having it. Wich just happens if the Tank got disarmed, stuned at the beginning of the pull. You don't need it up as long as you don't have the aggro, if even at all. ;) The RK or the minstrel shouldn't have aggro, true enough. But guess what, it happens. Rk wins here, sorry.
Did you ever do heavy AOE? You sound like someone crying for the sake of it. Your power issues simply don't happen.


Yes the HoT's keep working but the healing from RK HoT's is not big at all. Max tier writ of health is around 200 morale every 4 seconds and Prelude to hope 65 every 5 seconds and the healing stone 39 every 3 seconds. Add that up and it's roughly 300 morale every 4 seconds. Is that really going to save the tank with 12 mobs on him? Sigh, stop daydreaming and do it for once. A minstrel need to active counterheal during a FM so he can't always press fast enough to break some doors. RKs heals are more than sufficent enough to keep the tank alive during the FM. Not all 12 Mobs hit the Tank during a FM. The key is not having all mobs just hitting the Tank, especially during a FM. You should gain some expierince and do it for once before complaining if the hots r enough.
That's an huge advantage for the RK, plus he can press Yellow withouth getting toe 2 toe. Don't tell me you try to heavy AOE withough rrrrry. Spaming ;)
A Minstrel is a big disadvantage cause you cant roll 1 -3 FM in a row. Someones gonna die in the meantime. Pledge isn't always aviable, Wardens are suprisingly squishy during a FM;). The RKs Hots don't counter Heal the damage, they don't need to. They slow it down, so the Tanks stays alive while his morale is slower dropping. What's your point? Hots don't need to counter heal fully.

Of course you could do it withouth FM spamming, and a Minstrel, but wheres the advantage THEN? You're way slower.


"The RK had no issues counter healing 2-4 k damage/sec" This line I just have to call bull, just add up the healing numbers and you will see it is just not possible. Around 300 morale every 4 seconds from the HoT's is 75 morale per second. Add the Mending verse spam 500 morale every 2 seconds (including the HoT effect of it ) that's 250 morale a second.
250+ 75 = 325 morale a sec. Even if using the traited 50% bubble (10 seconds of it every 1 min 30 seconds, a bit lower with legacy) the damage would still be 3-6 times over the raw healing output of the RK. Most likely your Warden was just burning his cooldowns like Eldar's Grace if he was an elf and now that I come to think of it, it was a WARDEN, it has massive AoE morale leeches, it healed itself more than the RK did most likely. And even if what you said was true about the RK single target healing (but it isn't by a long shot) the RK would still be useless in raid encounters, as the damage there is not on single target, Watcher has unavoidable AoE's that your RK will not be able to heal with his 8 second induction 700 morale heal on a 20 sec cooldown. Quit talking BS. Mobs deal 4k, but the Tank don't get 4k. :rolleyes:

4k - 10% = 3600. 2000 - 10% = 1800 That's a Spike. not everytime most of the 12 critters , well crit on the Tank. The Watcher and even the Blind one don't hit 4k/s for 10 minutes. Don't make things up. A spike our RK heals with ease, so does a Minstrel. But both have no issues keeping the Tank alive. Where's the disadvantage for the RK here ?! If you don't use your potential to the max don't bother complaining about the Heal power of a RK. Your numbers are not correct. there is more possible for each heal 'n hot ;) I wont bother to go into the detail. Waste of time.

As for the Watcher,
Don't be so narrow minded don't make false assumptions, Hots keep tickling, just Switch fast after the Aoe. Switch Back. As i clearly statet the RK doesn't heal in Raids cause the Spot is taken from a kinship member not because it's worse or impossible. Watcher is way easier to heal than 12CH - 20 16thHall Mobs spaming dots, n Stuns.

I know what there is to know about healing on a RK, it was all I did from Moria launch to B7, it's Good enough to deal with the easy 6 mans, but on tougher content it just isn't enough. Is that your counter-argument ? "It's not possible cause i didn't try, and clearly don't push my RK?" I have to admit, i never thought our AEOing in raids and instances is something special. But then, when i read what "pros" like you post. Hell we're gods doing the impossible. :( Get off your high horse, and go in, try it out. You'll realise that a rk don't need to heal permanently for 10k on everyone, nor does a minstrel. The Raw transcendency of the minstrels healing skills isn't important to survive the encounters.Though RK's skills are weaker, it's not about raw healing power of the skills. Got it?

I don't argue here. If you choose to disbelieve it's your choice. I'm fine. But don't contest against things you know nothing about. Sorry for the Offtopic.


Hunter fixes wich should be addressed:
- BOR: Fokus loss issue
- Swift Bow animation
- Deadly Precision Focus gain even from autohit-crits

Boosts:
- Auto-attacks are influenced by crit and dev crit legacys, traitlines.
- Crit legacys should count for Dev Crits too

[Flambergius]

I would not call hunter CC laughable, either, but you forget that I was talking and comparing the two classes when it comes up to grouping. I really enjoy my trapping/rooting/fearing skills when I am on solo.. But when it comes to grouping, I have better things to do since the lore master in my group will take care of every CC aspect of the fight..


It is my understanding that loremaster isn't the most popular class in the game, so I find it hard to believe that all groups have a loremaster. Now, around half the groups I could believe. That would leave hunters the best CC class (sorry, burglars) around about half the time. Even with a loremaster around hunters can, with a minimal cost to dps, support the loremaster and together achieve just as much as two loremasters could. This is not something to be sneered at, this is a viable secondary role.

Btw, I wholeheartedly agree with this:

The most perfidious way of harming a cause consists of defending it deliberately with faulty arguments.
Friedric Nietzche

[nightbyday]

why do hunter thread always turn into RK this Hunter that and visa versa on Rk forums??

Lets get this right once and for all

Hunter Dps and CC
Runekeeper Dps and healing

Errr you can compare the two they are totally different its like comparing a burg to a champ.

Hunter Dps and CC
Lore master CC and dps

Runekeeper DPS and healing
Minstrel Healing and DPS

get they idea (well i am sure thats how dev planned it) ;p


ref healing, rk and mns...

Emli is spot on really with out going into the (if you do this and do that), mns will out heal an RK single target wise who will out heal a captain single target (why the F people keep on instisting capts are HoH full traited is beyond me ... but thats another story) and a wather of resolve traited minstrel will blow the socks off a minstrels healing (as it should be). Group healing wise if the minstrel is not tratied WoR they will have to work hard to out heal a group healing RK.

However this is all instance/group dependent.

On subject.

I would rather they hold off on a 'fix' for hunters until they have it right, i am fed up of buff then heavy nerf. Hunters are not that bad and still shine enough to make them useful dps wise any changes need to come through traited CC adjustments and modifaction to the lengedary 5 trait line (all are total Bullocks atm).

[Emli]

Never statet differently. RK healing is sufficent enough. It does not need to excel the singel Target healing abilitys of a Minstrel. The RK is better for heavy AOE not because he can heal more, don't make things up.

Been there, done it. Yes i want the RK to take the 10%. Stone and HM Hots counter healing those 10%. Sorry to break your narrow world. If it get's ugly he just has to push 1 courage to himself. While the Tank is fully ticking. Hard to figure out....

- No interruptions
In contrary to your disbelieve you don't need to keep it activated everytime.
It's a safeguard if the RK get's aggro due to the Tank not yet having it. Wich just happens if the Tank got disarmed, stuned at the beginning of the pull. You don't need it up as long as you don't have the aggro, if even at all. ;) The RK or the minstrel shouldn't have aggro, true enough. But guess what, it happens. Rk wins here, sorry.
Did you ever do heavy AOE? You sound like someone crying for the sake of it. Your power issues simply don't happen.


Sigh, stop daydreaming and do it for once. A minstrel need to active counterheal during a FM so he can't always press fast enough to break some doors. RKs heals are more than sufficent enough to keep the tank alive during the FM. Not all 12 Mobs hit the Tank during a FM. The key is not having all mobs just hitting the Tank, especially during a FM. You should gain some expierince and do it for once before complaining if the hots r enough.
That's an huge advantage for the RK, plus he can press Yellow withouth getting toe 2 toe. Don't tell me you try to heavy AOE withough rrrrry. Spaming ;)
A Minstrel is a big disadvantage cause you cant roll 1 -3 FM in a row. Someones gonna die in the meantime. Pledge isn't always aviable, Wardens are suprisingly squishy during a FM;). The RKs Hots don't counter Heal the damage, they don't need to. They slow it down, so the Tanks stays alive while his morale is slower dropping. What's your point? Hots don't need to counter heal fully.

Of course you could do it withouth FM spamming, and a Minstrel, but wheres the advantage THEN? You're way slower.


Quit talking BS. Mobs deal 4k, but the Tank don't get 4k. :rolleyes:

4k - 10% = 3600. 2000 - 10% = 1800 That's a Spike. not everytime most of the 12 critters , well crit on the Tank. The Watcher and even the Blind one don't hit 4k/s for 10 minutes. Don't make things up. A spike our RK heals with ease, so does a Minstrel. But both have no issues keeping the Tank alive. Where's the disadvantage for the RK here ?! If you don't use your potential to the max don't bother complaining about the Heal power of a RK. Your numbers are not correct. there is more possible for each heal 'n hot ;) I wont bother to go into the detail. Waste of time.

As for the Watcher,
Don't be so narrow minded don't make false assumptions, Hots keep tickling, just Switch fast after the Aoe. Switch Back. As i clearly statet the RK doesn't heal in Raids cause the Spot is taken from a kinship member not because it's worse or impossible. Watcher is way easier to heal than 12CH - 20 16thHall Mobs spaming dots, n Stuns.

Is that your counter-argument ? "It's not possible cause i didn't try, and clearly don't push my RK?" I have to admit, i never thought our AEOing in raids and instances is something special. But then, when i read what "pros" like you post. Hell we're gods doing the impossible. :( Get off your high horse, and go in, try it out. You'll realise that a rk don't need to heal permanently for 10k on everyone, nor does a minstrel. The Raw transcendency of the minstrels healing skills isn't important to survive the encounters.Though RK's skills are weaker, it's not about raw healing power of the skills. Got it?

I don't argue here. If you choose to disbelieve it's your choice. I'm fine. But don't contest against things you know nothing about. Sorry for the Offtopic.


Hunter fixes wich should be addressed:
- BOR: Fokus loss issue
- Swift Bow animation
- Deadly Precision Focus gain even from autohit-crits

Boosts:
- Auto-attacks are influenced by crit and dev crit legacys, traitlines.
- Crit legacys should count for Dev Crits too

So the RK isn't better at single target healing, it can't heal more, yet it is better for AoE pulls just because you say so, Ok, got it!

The interruption skill and the 10% damage transfer is THE SAME SKILL, you can't keep it up without the power drain and if your tank is taking 4 k damage like you said then the 10% transferred to the RK is 400 damage a sec, really think a Stone that heals 13 morale/sec counters that? Don't get all smartass with me about RK skills you have zero knowledge of.

Stop daydreaming and done it once? didn't you read my last post? I've been doing it since Moria launch. RK DoT's keep ticking while FM indeed but they only heal 75 morale a sec, will hardly make a dent in the damage coming from the 11 mobs (1 is knocked down). A minstrel just needs to do 1 Bolster Courage and it has the same effect as the RK heals that tick for 15 seconds. On FM's minstrel is usually the last anyway, so the break in healing is only a few seconds at most. The only real advantage here is that RK can do a yellow from range, but most of the time in tough pulls like this the FM is GGGBB or RRRRRG anyway so the minstrel can do it from range too.

Big freaking deal, the Tank takes 1.8-3.6k damage/sec instead of 2-4k. And the extra damage doesn't just disappear it just goes to the healer, so you still have to heal the same amount, only on 2 different targets now. Don't make things up... It was YOU who gave that number of 4k/sec. RK's easily outhealing a 3.6 k spike? Mate I just posted the numbers, maximum that a RK can heal is 325 morale/sec, with that it takes 11 seconds to out heal that, but what do the mobs do in the mean time? Ask them nicely to stand still while you top off the tank?

"Your numbers aren't correct, there is more possible for each HoT, but I can't be bothered to go in detail".
Translation:" I haven't got the slightest clue about RK skills, but I can't possibly be wrong can I, so I got to keep talking like I know something".

As for the watcher: "hots keep tickling, just switch fast after AOE. Switch back".
What the heck is that supposed to mean?

Watcher easier to heal than 12-20 mob pulls? Why the heck are you pulling 12-20 mobs anyway? Is your tank doing like 3 rooms at a time? And Watcher easier to heal? 2 crushing devastations in a row and you die with a RK healer.

I've never said that hall of Crafting or 16th hall was the harder content! I've healed both but they can be healed much easier by a Minstrel. My whole point is that for tougher content like DD, Watcher, Dar narbugud, RK healing is not enough!

And IT IS about the raw healing power of skills, that's why the RK just can't compete with the heavy AoE's in the Watcher raid.

P.S Sorry for the wall of text just seeing all that misinformation made me want to smash my head into a wall.

[Eikinskialdi]

I would like improved barbed arrow and my improved swiftbow back then I'm happy.

[agoracy_]

It is my understanding that loremaster isn't the most popular class in the game, so I find it hard to believe that all groups have a loremaster. Now, around half the groups I could believe. That would leave hunters the best CC class (sorry, burglars) around about half the time. Even with a loremaster around hunters can, with a minimal cost to dps, support the loremaster and together achieve just as much as two loremasters could. This is not something to be sneered at, this is a viable secondary role.


I am not mr PUG guy. And it happens in 99% of the cases to have a LM in my daily group, or maybe even two. So I am never requested to use my CC skills. That's why I usually do my job assisting the tank rather than experimenting my "viable" cc in order to interfere with my LM friend(s).

Now, back to the topic, comparing the two classes secondary roles I believe healing is more important than CC in most of the cases. You can go in a variety of places without paying any attention to crow control, but it will be very hard to keep up if you will not receive a proper healing.

As for your last quote, I am not trying to defend a cause in here, it's just about stating my opinions according to my own game play experience. You may call it a whine if it makes you feel better.

[Telaron70]

^^ Agreed.

I'd just like to add that although our cc is useful on occasion it is not really developed enough to qualify as a real role in groups.

Example: the other day I did HoC without LM. There are several points where it makes life a bit easier (note: not critical) to root a bunch of mobs. This can quite easily be done by Hunter with RoT & is fine as such. However, as the mobs break free the root can't be reapplied due to cooldowns and in fact it was still on CD by the time the next bunch of mobs was reached. So not exactly crowd control as such. More a useful way of giving the group a small advantage when starting off a fight, but not really controlling anything beyond that initial pull.

Now I don't really have any problem with that. It's a useful skill that can help a little bit in the absence of the real cc class. But no-one is ever gonna want a Hunter in a group to perform cc duties. ToF traitline improves cc a bit, but no sane Hunter (if there is such a thing) will be traited that way as it cripples our primary role (dps in case anyone's wondering) for very little advantage.

Our other cc? Bards can be a bit wayward & I would usually have IPO slotted in a group in case I need the morale/power shot in the arm. Our awesome 5 second stun is rarely worth the power expenditure. Traps will mostly be ignored by the mobs and if I'm honest, my own group too.

My emphasis is on the word "control" suggesting the intelligent use & reapplication of skills to influence the mobs behaviour and consequently the outcome of the fight. Our cc doesn't really cut it in that context, but is useful at a pinch.

Oh yeah and all our cc is useless on bosses.

[Emli]

^^ Agreed.

I'd just like to add that although our cc is useful on occasion it is not really developed enough to qualify as a real role in groups.

Example: the other day I did HoC without LM. There are several points where it makes life a bit easier (note: not critical) to root a bunch of mobs. This can quite easily be done by Hunter with RoT & is fine as such. However, as the mobs break free the root can't be reapplied due to cooldowns and in fact it was still on CD by the time the next bunch of mobs was reached. So not exactly crowd control as such. More a useful way of giving the group a small advantage when starting off a fight, but not really controlling anything beyond that initial pull.

Now I don't really have any problem with that. It's a useful skill that can help a little bit in the absence of the real cc class. But no-one is ever gonna want a Hunter in a group to perform cc duties. ToF traitline improves cc a bit, but no sane Hunter (if there is such a thing) will be traited that way as it cripples our primary role (dps in case anyone's wondering) for very little advantage.

Our other cc? Bards can be a bit wayward & I would usually have IPO slotted in a group in case I need the morale/power shot in the arm. Our awesome 5 second stun is rarely worth the power expenditure. Traps will mostly be ignored by the mobs and if I'm honest, my own group too.

My emphasis is on the word "control" suggesting the intelligent use & reapplication of skills to influence the mobs behaviour and consequently the outcome of the fight. Our cc doesn't really cut it in that context, but is useful at a pinch.

Oh yeah and all our cc is useless on bosses.

All roots in the game work like that though, including the LM root, 30 second duration, 2 minute cooldown. The only real crowd control skills in the game are Blinding Flash and Burglars Riddle.

And All of everyone's cc is useless on bosses, they are completely immune (other than FM starters and some are immune to even that).

Indeed, cc as a secondary role compared to healing doesn't sound good at first, but the hunters cc can be done without going deep in the trapper line and can be done while DPS-ing, no need to change attunements, so in most fights the hunter's secondary role is acctually more usefull, because in fights where the minstrel doesn't go down, the RK secondary role is completely useless. So I guess there is some balance in that. Opinions differ though.

[Telaron70]

All roots in the game work like that though, including the LM root, 30 second duration, 2 minute cooldown. The only real crowd control skills in the game are Blinding Flash and Burglars Riddle.

And All of everyone's cc is useless on bosses, they are completely immune (other than FM starters and some are immune to even that).

Indeed, cc as a secondary role compared to healing doesn't sound good at first, but the hunters cc can be done without going deep in the trapper line and can be done while DPS-ing, no need to change attunements, so in most fights the hunter's secondary role is acctually more usefull, because in fights where the minstrel doesn't go down, the RK secondary role is completely useless. So I guess there is some balance in that. Opinions differ though.

Well I wasn't offering my explanation as a comparison to RK. I am not into all this bickering about whose second role is better than whose. I merely point out that while we have a couple of useful cc skills - it doesn't really add up to effective group cc and tbh neither should it, it's not really our job. It's just something we can throw into the mix on the few occasions it's wanted. And while LM root may be similar 30sec root with 2min cool down, they have many further options to lock down mobs.

Also while I appreciate that the basic cc skills come as a freeby - ie we don't have to attune for them or cripple our damage output by going into ToF trait line - they aren't particularly effective, with the exception of RoT.

It should also be noted that if Hunter does a root pull using RoT and the mobs get loose before the Guard is ready to pick them up (not uncommon - it can fail or be broken) then their aggro will be straight on the Hunter - something that is anathema to all Hunters and can be quite chaotic for the group to deal with. Yet again it's about "control" and proper use of threat is another form of cc. It's all about making the mobs behave in a way that is expected & prepared for. A proper cc class has other skills to deal with breakouts like that while we must stand & fight (or kite) while the situation is recovered and in that time we are not doing what we should be doing - laying down some good solid dps.

Personally, unless specifically asked I don't do any pulls.

Our cc is very effective for soloing though - and that is where it's main benefit lies.

Anyway back on topic. News just in - still a big fat zero. Hunters are working perfectly ;)

[mYhero]

bla , to keep it short

Have fun smashing your head, it won't help with your lack of reading skills. :D

You make things up, e.g. your still unable to understand the difference between a spike and your made up 4k/sek ongoing damage- Of course a RK can't counter heal that , duh. Your rough calculation of raw healing power of a RK is right, but well you have zero knowledge about those situations (thus making things up), mostly cause you've never done them. Your raw power healing isn't an issue there. You need the machanics of Hots/ and damage distribution. Heavy AOE play be it instances or the Raids requires more. A HM counter heals the 10% damage on the RK with ease. Most of the time (this is where you fail again) his group hot is just enough for those 10%. Mobs don't life long enough to even bother with power issues. Thoss a blue FM, and your set. e.g you keep pulling more after a few orks died.

You don't need to keep it up long enough to get power issues, nor do you need to actively heal up to 4k/s. Something you clearly don't want to understand.

-10% Thats a important key part of the whole healing. You divide the damage. Thus the RK needs to heal less, and can be healed by other minority skills. E.g. LM / HM. You can't possible heal those damage numbers without this. Neither could a Minstrel. Since the Main target gets way less damage, he stays healable. It's a thin threshold line. Are you dumb not to understand such a simple gamemechanic?:bw:

I'm happy you don't bother with healing after all, you lack the experience and the knowledge of your class in those situations. After all i don't need to convince people wich lack even proper reading skills. A RK with such a high skill, and a nice n' kind guy btw will continue to heal us in your HEAVY AOE'ing and Raid runs - though we may do the impossible for you.

To quit this, and stop going offtopic with a troll, bottom line: A RK can and did healing in DN/ Watcher /insane suicide 20 orks at once fil gash runs.
Don't get your hopes down just cause some trolls crys about raw healing power when it doesn't matter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway back on topic. News just in - still a big fat zero. Hunters are working perfectly
Huh no fixes? got a link, pretty please? :D

[Emli]

Have fun smashing your head, it won't help with your lack of reading skills. :D

You make things up, e.g. your still unable to understand the difference between a spike and your made up 4k/sek ongoing damage- Of course a RK can't counter heal that , duh. Your rough calculation of raw healing power of a RK is right, but well you have zero knowledge about those situations (thus making things up), mostly cause you've never done them. Your raw power healing isn't an issue there. You need the machanics of Hots/ and damage distribution. Heavy AOE play be it instances or the Raids requires more. A HM counter heals the 10% damage on the RK with ease. Most of the time (this is where you fail again) his group hot is just enough for those 10%. Mobs don't life long enough to even bother with power issues. Thoss a blue FM, and your set. e.g you keep pulling more after a few orks died.

You don't need to keep it up long enough to get power issues, nor do you need to actively heal up to 4k/s. Something you clearly don't want to understand.

-10% Thats a important key part of the whole healing. You divide the damage. Thus the RK needs to heal less, and can be healed by other minority skills. E.g. LM / HM. You can't possible heal those damage numbers without this. Neither could a Minstrel. Since the Main target gets way less damage, he stays healable. It's a thin threshold line. Are you dumb not to understand such a simple gamemechanic?:bw:

I'm happy you don't bother with healing after all, you lack the experience and the knowledge of your class in those situations. After all i don't need to convince people wich lack even proper reading skills. A RK with such a high skill, and a nice n' kind guy btw will continue to heal us in your HEAVY AOE'ing and Raid runs - though we may do the impossible for you.

To quit this, and stop going offtopic with a troll, bottom line: A RK can and did healing in DN/ Watcher /insane suicide 20 orks at once fil gash runs.
Don't get your hopes down just cause some trolls crys about raw healing power when it doesn't matter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Huh no fixes? got a link, pretty please? :D

You, sir, are a complete idiot.

MY made up numbers? It was YOU saying that a RK has no problem healing 2-4k/sec damage, you didn't say anything about any spike, you just said a RK can counter-heal 2-4k/sec damage.

Now you say my calculations of healing power are correct, but on your previous post you claimed that those were wrong and you could easily make those higher "but you aren't bothered to do that, waste of time". This time you probably did some background search and see that you're arguement is false so you come up with other crap like me not having any experience with those situations (Like you would, although your a hunter!?) because I have never done them. PLEASE LEARN TO READ. My last post clearly says that I have healed those since Moria launch, I know perfectly well how it is done (unlike you who knows nothing of how the skills function and can't even come up with real names HM/LM skills!?), BUT A MINSTREL CAN DO IT BETTER AND ALTHOUGH EASY INSTANCES LIKE THE 6 MANS (apart from DD) ARE HEALABLE BY A RK THE RAIDS AREN'T!That is the whole arguement that you seem to lack the intelligence to understand, even made it in caps for you, maybe you can understand it better this way. The numbers and calculations were just brought up to show that you have no clue on the subject you are talking about, really 4k/sec damage, You would need 20 mobs on you all hitting 200 in the same second to get that. And if you have 20 mobs hitting on you, then it's not spike damage, that damage will last for quite a while. And seeing as RK maximum healing is 325 morale/sec it would take your tank a whole 2 seconds to go down. I think there wasn't a single true fact in your post (other than RK's being able to do yellows from range). Instead you keep blabbering on about how uber you are because you managed to do an easy 6 man with a RK as a healer. Nobody cares about that. And the group healing stone does 13 morale/sec, if that is enough to heal 10% off damage transferred from a tank when he has 20 mobs on him then what are you fighting?

RK's have main healed Watcher and DN? Please show me one, really, please do. Because I think you are just as full of crap with that sentence as you were with all of your previous posts.

P.S Sorry for this Off-topic discussion but stupid posts like this just force me to react, but then I guess it's what he wants, trolling as he is.

[Flambergius]

So not exactly crowd control as such. More a useful way of giving the group a small advantage when starting off a fight, but not really controlling anything beyond that initial pull.


BUT. THAT'S. WHAT. CROWD. CONTROL. IS.

For ****'s sake, man, there's no such thing as *real* crowd control beyond what we have. Daze doesn't turn farts into butterflies, it's just another way of taking a mob out of combat temporarily. A great way to do it, no doubt, but in most tactical situations you will actually encounter in the game a trap will do just fine. (That's also the reason why I think that Trapper of Foes traitline sucks. The increase to our CC capability is no way proportional to the cost.)

Sorry about yelling back there, but I really wanted to. The main thing holding hunters back in a CC role is that they themselves don't think they can do it. It does make me angry.

[cossieuk]

Sorry for the off topic post but Rune-keepers can heal VM

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=251180

ON topic

Give the Hunter a little TLC

[Telaron70]

BUT. THAT'S. WHAT. CROWD. CONTROL. IS.

For ****'s sake, man, there's no such thing as *real* crowd control beyond what we have. Daze doesn't turn farts into butterflies, it's just another way of taking a mob out of combat temporarily. A great way to do it, no doubt, but in most tactical situations you will actually encounter in the game a trap will do just fine. (That's also the reason why I think that Trapper of Foes traitline sucks. The increase to our CC capability is no way proportional to the cost.)

Sorry about yelling back there, but I really wanted to. The main thing holding hunters back in a CC role is that they themselves don't think they can do it. It does make me angry.

Yeah I know full well what cc is and quite obviously there is *real* cc beyond what we have or we would be the undisputed cc kings. When was the last time someone said "Hunter keep that troll stunned"? In my mind crowd control isn't firing off a 1 shot skill and hoping it sticks, good as it maybe for that first pull. If ToF was a better implemented trait line, then yeah we'd have the makings of a powerful cc class, but can you imagine the uproar about OP'd Hunters if that did happen?

Besides my points are really aimed at those who seem to be saying Hunters are fine with our somewhat lower dps because we have a strong cc second role. The one doesn't make up for the other.

Useful? hell yes. Strong? no not really.

[nightbyday]

BUT...

Hunters are not seen as the 2nd strongest CC role, third maybe :p (besides you need strong traps slotted to be that effective :D ).

[Flambergius]

Yeah I know full well what cc is and quite obviously there is *real* cc beyond what we have or we would be the undisputed cc kings.

Ok, please describe to me what this *real* cc is. And it better be something else than chain-mezzing/dazing or I'm very disappointed.

To be clear, it's obvious that lore-masters are better at CC than hunters, but my point is that both bring an utility of the same kind. The word "kind" used here in the sense "a category of things distinguished by some common characteristic or quality". Another way to put this is to say that, in a tactical situation where lore-master's cc would be useful, it is highly likely that hunter's cc would also be useful.

[Emli]

Sorry for the off topic post but Rune-keepers can heal VM

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=251180

ON topic

Give the Hunter a little TLC

Rune-Keepers were able to, they can't anymore. Look at the posting dates. The replys are from the Easy-mode Watcher, the one you were able to range tank.

[Telaron70]

Ok, please describe to me what this *real* cc is. And it better be something else than chain-mezzing/dazing or I'm very disappointed.

To be clear, it's obvious that lore-masters are better at CC than hunters, but my point is that both bring an utility of the same kind. The word "kind" used here in the sense "a category of things distinguished by some common characteristic or quality". Another way to put this is to say that, in a tactical situation where lore-master's cc would be useful, it is highly likely that hunter's cc would also be useful.

So be disappointed. You've picked on the obvious area where we are weak & challenged me to come up with something other than that. lol

No need to get hung up on a word here. If you prefer to, substitute real with better or superior. Whatever it is just semantics, or you are deliberately misunderstanding to make your point. Obviously our cc is real in that it exists, and I agree our root is applicable in the same tactical situation as a LM's as it does the same job. You call it a viable second role. I think it's a bit less than that.

[Haelewulf]

Just to chip in slightly, I've never had a loremaster stun/mez break without inside interference, and VERY SELDOM seen it resisted. As in, possibly once or twice in 30 levels.

It doesn't scale up beautifully, but I've also had equal level nasties break out of my traps in mere seconds. It's a pain.

All our CC powers are on too long a cooldown for us to function as reliable group CC, and we shouldn't have to splash out on expensive traps to be competent at a secondary role.

That's my two cents, anyway.

[Flambergius]

So be disappointed. You've picked on the obvious area where we are weak & challenged me to come up with something other than that. lol

No need to get hung up on a word here. If you prefer to, substitute real with better or superior. Whatever it is just semantics, or you are deliberately misunderstanding to make your point. Obviously our cc is real in that it exists, and I agree our root is applicable in the same tactical situation as a LM's as it does the same job. You call it a viable second role. I think it's a bit less than that.

From Wikipedia:
"Semantics is the study of meaning. The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation."

The world "real" as you used it in your earlier post is not interchangeable with "better" or "superior". Your current position is my original position, with the exception that you say that hunter is cc is "a bit less than" a viable second role, a distinction that seems to be a rhetorical device employed to save face, but is otherwise devoid of meaning.

[Flambergius]

All our CC powers are on too long a cooldown for us to function as reliable group CC, and we shouldn't have to splash out on expensive traps to be competent at a secondary role.


Long cooldowns are a definite weakness and so are longish inductions. However, I'm not quite certain how having weaknesses disqualifies us from being able to do secondary cc. The utility is there in our skillset, meaning we can do it; never mind than lore-masters do it with better style points.

Now, a secondary role is actually a bit trickier proposition than just being able to do the job. A role means contributing to the group in a particular traditional or agreed-upon way. It is a way to implicitly communicate and coordinate the group's efforts. I think the understanding of cc in general is shallow and sometimes centered too much around locking down mobs for duration of the fight. Needless to say this lore-master-lookalike role is not the best fit for hunters. But there's nothing preventing hunter's from defining their own cc role, nothing at least in the game-system.

[nightbyday]

The biggest issue with Hunters CC is this...

No one seems to appreciate we can do it.

LM and hunter CC are great together, for example hunter can root a mass of mobs and have and pull one out for the 'tank' to pick up (if you don't he one or two free and running to fellowship), LM can the reroot 30secs later and rinse repeat the pull out.

No root able situations LM can keep a mob 'stunned' while hunter plays CC guard for minstrel (fear daze).

The buggest issue with CC as a whole is the majority of players don't check to see if the mob has an 'icon' of cc running, how many times have hunters 'feared/dazed' a mob on the healer only to have an LM immediatly 'restun' the same mob while the orginal CC'ed mob from pack runs lose and goes for healer?

I think you get my point here hunters have a great 2nd roll for on the move CC which compliments a burgler or LM, much in the same way RK compliments a minstrel, eg Minstrel and RK can swap from dps to healing or visa versa while one is more superior at a specific task than the other. LM and hunter DPS or CC, again can swap from one to the other and excell more in one area than the other class.

ERGO RK is NOT a comparison to Hunter and i am sick of seeing Rk mentioned in Hunter threads because peole are trying to compare, Lms are.

[OMWiener]

From Wikipedia:
"Semantics is the study of meaning. The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation."

The world "real" as you used it in your earlier post is not interchangeable with "better" or "superior". Your current position is my original position, with the exception that you say that hunter is cc is "a bit less than" a viable second role, a distinction that seems to be a rhetorical device employed to save face, but is otherwise devoid of meaning.

Sorry mate, now you're just trolling. There's is no way of knowing what the other meant or means by his words. If he can change "real" with "better", who are you to judge that? ARe you psychic or something? No, you are just trying to hard to argue besides the point. IT's funny that I did understand Telaron's meaning and I do think that in that context "real" could be replaced with "better". Just depends on how you look at it. So stop discussing besides the point.

Oh and I agree with Telaron. The fact that most of our CC is either linked to an induction or focus and cannot be used to lock an enemy, means our cc is situational at best. In an ideal world with ideal players, the first wouldn't be a problem, but it is.

As nightbyday indicates, we are great to complement the other cc-classes. But as a primary we fall short. Can't remember how many times in three man instances all my cc was just on CD and we just ahd to pull away.

[Telaron70]

From Wikipedia:
"Semantics is the study of meaning. The word "semantics" itself denotes a range of ideas, from the popular to the highly technical. It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation."

The world "real" as you used it in your earlier post is not interchangeable with "better" or "superior". Your current position is my original position, with the exception that you say that hunter is cc is "a bit less than" a viable second role, a distinction that seems to be a rhetorical device employed to save face, but is otherwise devoid of meaning.

OK while we are nitpicking away, my original statement said:

"It's a useful skill that can help a little bit in the absence of the real cc class"

"the real cc class" being an obvious (to me anyway) reference to the superiority of the LM.

It was you who turned it into:

"For ****'s sake, man, there's no such thing as *real* crowd control beyond what we have"

Implying that I was trying to say we don't have real cc?

Silly me, I should have re-read my first post before getting suckered into a pointless argument.

Real and better or superior not interchangeable? Well if someone or something is described as "the real thing" or "the real deal" how do you interpret that?

My position is what it has been from the start. That our cc as it stands isn't really worthy of being called a strong second role. Plenty may disagree and that's fair enough. No need to blow a fuse about it. Conceding a specific point that you made re LM and Hunter roots is hardly changing my opinion as a whole "to save face". It just means I took on board what you said regarding that & decided you were correct.

Oh - and I deliberately used the word semantics knowing you wouldn't be able to resist quoting the dictionary back at me. The technical explanation of it demonstrates what exactly? Your superiority of language skills? Well gratz on that. As you say yourself "It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation". Guess that makes me ordinary.

Please feel free to correct any further spelling, grammar or punctuation mistakes I've made and if this post is as nonsensical as all my others then I'm sure you will point out my shortcomings.

Apologies for the total derailment I seem to have sparked. I'm outta here :D

[Silmahad]

"You shoot Bard's Arrow on Moria Cave Troll" - <Blocked>

[Flambergius]

Sorry mate, now you're just trolling.

Trolling no, though getting into semantics might have been counter-productive. But you are probably right that I should have accepted the change in language at face value as a clarification.

[Flambergius]

OK while we are nitpicking away, my original statement said:

"It's a useful skill that can help a little bit in the absence of the real cc class"

"the real cc class" being an obvious (to me anyway) reference to the superiority of the LM.


Fine, comment about face saving redacted.

We seem to agree that hunters can do useful cc and lore-masters are better at it then we are. The difference between the two classes is of decree, not of kind.

That just leaves me puzzled, I really don't understand what else the above describes than a primary and secondary role. I'm beginning to think that your bar for a secondary role is set unrealistically high.

I'll continue with a quote from OMWiener, as your positions seem to be similar.


Oh and I agree with Telaron. The fact that most of our CC is either linked to an induction or focus and cannot be used to lock an enemy, means our cc is situational at best. In an ideal world with ideal players, the first wouldn't be a problem, but it is.

As nightbyday indicates, we are great to complement the other cc-classes. But as a primary we fall short. Can't remember how many times in three man instances all my cc was just on CD and we just ahd to pull away.


Well, I agree with all that, except for the conclusion part. Our cc has clear weaknesses and peculiarities, but that's something I will readily accept in a secondary role. I take "our cc is situational at best" to mean that our cc is useful in a too small portion of the tactical situations that are encountered in the game. Judging only from my own experience that's just flat out false, hunter cc is applicable to almost every situation that allows any cc. Yes, if a single hunter is all cc that the fellowships has, that fellowship will be noticeably weak in cc, but isn't that exactly as it should be if hunters are secondary cc? A bit like when all your healing comes form a single captain.

(Btw, that analogy holds also in the case where you add a second hunter/captain, bringing about a fellowship that isn't anymore characterized by a weakness, but in fact unique strengths.)

[Flambergius]

"You shoot Bard's Arrow on Moria Cave Troll" - <Blocked>

The main thing holding hunters back in a CC role is that they themselves don't think they can do it. It does make me angry.

add10chars

[Llewrend]

Hunters need 2-3 legendary traits to have this secondary role. Does some other class also?

[European]

Someone mentioned that we aren't appreciated as cc or don't think that we can do it. Well in our kin we ALWAYS use Rain of Thorns on rootable mobs, before using a LM's root. Not sure, but we seem to have a much better range than the LM's there. Except in raids i also always have bards arrow equipped, and I use it all the time. The groups of mobs we face these days in instances are usually more than any LM can handle alone, so I use ny bards arrow all the time. Usually that's enough to keep the group alive, and if things are tough, i use the stun too. It's not longlasting, and untraited the cd is long, but the times I use it, it's almost always THAT which saves us, or at least saves some rezzes.
I too agree that the cost of using the trapper line is too great, so I rarely use it, but I still do appreciate the cc we still can do a LOT and consider it very usefull :)

[Simps0n]

Why would we even accept the role of a CC class? If I wanted CC, I would have gone for LM...

I want to pew pew and do ranged damage. That's what the class used to be and that's what it should be again. They can change the RK to do CC...

[Flambergius]

Hunters need 2-3 legendary traits to have this secondary role. Does some other class also?

Though factually correct, as an argument against hunter cc that's just partly true, with the rest being bogus.

Everybody has 3 legendary traits at level 60 and all reasonable roles use all three traits. It's not like you could save one in this build to get an extra one in that build. Some people (maybe not you) seem to consider legendary traits as somehow extraneous to the class and refuse to consider roles that require builds with legendary traits. That's just bogus, a made-up argument drawing lines where there are none in the game.

I do believe that Rain of Thorns and Bard's Arrow are needed, which has drawbacks. Firstly, the variety of different conceptions of a cc-capable hunter is limited. That could get boring at some point. Second drawback is that it is relatively expensive to re-trait. Taken together they do represent a potential lock-in.

You asked about other classes. I'm far from an expert on all classes, thankfully. :-) There clearly are lock-ins. For example, champions and minstrels are very strongly locked into a certain roles in fellowships, that's the flip-side of having an useful, established role. Just looking at traits for the classes I believe I understand well enough, wardens have it really bad lock-in (7 normals + 2 legendaries) while burglars don't. Of other classes I think captains need to trait pretty strongly towards Hands of Healing to be effective healers and every minstrels has Rally and Fellowship's Heart traited. Compared to some of those our potential lock-in for cc-capability seems fairly benign. It's just 2 legendaries plus 1-2 Trapper of Foes traits (I go with Strong Intimidation and Deep Concentration).

[Flambergius]

Why would we even accept the role of a CC class? If I wanted CC, I would have gone for LM...

I want to pew pew and do ranged damage. That's what the class used to be and that's what it should be again. They can change the RK to do CC...

Nothing wrong with pew-pewing, btw.

You are wrong in that cc would be a new thing for hunters, the required skills and traits were in game at least since I began to play (V1B12). It might not have been called a hybrid class (can't remember), but hunter was one even back then. Clearly, there were several months after MoM and before Book 7 where (melee/ranged) dps was the only thing worth doing, but not just for the hunter class but for everybody. Those days are not coming back and the game as a whole is better for it.

More generally your point is about the player's concept of a character not really fitting well with what the game offers. That is a really hard problem. I think wanting to be like something is a very good thing, it can be a very good source of motivation and enjoyment in the game. However, if there is a too big inconsistency or conflict between what is possible and what the player wants, it is and it must be the player's responsibility to resolve it.

So, the reason why you would want to accept a secondary cc role is that it would probably make you enjoy the game more.

[Silmahad]

Much nice bla bla, fact is I don't want to sacrifice damage for this "incredible CC", I never expected that and the most important, NOBODY needs this CC in the current content.

But you need and will ALWAYS need damage and healing.

Even Turbine has no clue at moment to give CC a viable role in PvE. In content where Elites and even bosses hit like girls you just draw all mobs together and AE them down. DN has not even one spot where you need hunter CC.

So give me my damage back.

On the class role description I read "nuker" as I started this game, NOT "Jack of all trades", NOT "Mr. CC" and NOT "Tank".

[Flambergius]

So give me my damage back.


That's I guess the pre-book 7 damage. Should other classes get their damage back too?

Either way don't you see it as incredibly unlikely that Turbine would now make hunters into narrowly scoped nukers when Turbine has explicitly stated that they firmly believe in broadly scoped classes?

PS. I think it is obvious to all that I don't think that cc is useless.

[Silmahad]

Nope, its not the prebook 7 damage, it's just the damage (dps) a Runekeeper can do in every imaginable situation without drawing aggro.

Then, I would even swallow your healswitches during an instance run, because maybe (one day) CC will be an important option again.

[Llewrend]

Though factually correct, as an argument against hunter cc that's just partly true, with the rest being bogus.You're really stretching my post further than I intended, and you pretty much disregarded my whole point, which, I thought was pretty simple and, thus, quite shortly written. I didn't say anything on how good or bad our crowd-control role was. Don't assume something I didn't say.You asked about other classes. I'm far from an expert on all classes, thankfully. :-) There clearly are lock-ins.You mean trait-defined roles? No, but that's not what my post was about. [edit]:You should have mentioned loremasters though. :)
Minstrel doesn't need to go trait a legendary trait to switch to war-speech. Champion doesn't need to go a bard to equip legendary traits to switch from single target dps to aoe, or tanking. Captain doesn't have to visit bard to put on traits to be able to heal or resurrect in-combat. I could go on but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. All other classes have legendary traits that enhance the abilities they already have. [For the record, I have all those classes you mentioned (chm, mns, cpt, wdn, brg) at or close to level cap.]

Primary role: ranged dps. Secondary role: out-of-combat utility. Tertiary role: crowd-control. That's how I see hunters.

I really don't want to get into this thread anymore than this.

[Flambergius]

Minstrel doesn't need to go trait a legendary trait to switch to war-speech. Champion doesn't need to go a bard to equip legendary traits to switch from single target dps to aoe, or tanking. Captain doesn't have to visit bard to put on traits to be able to heal or resurrect in-combat. I could go on but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. All other classes have legendary traits that enhance the abilities they already have.

And my objection to that line of argument remains that I don't consider it important where the utility comes from, just whether or not it is there. I thought I'd reiterate that, because I probably wasn't clear the first time.

[Flambergius]

Nope, its not the prebook 7 damage, it's just the damage (dps) a Runekeeper can do in every imaginable situation without drawing aggro.

Meh, I've never been too fond of DoTs in any game, usually too much lead-time and then the mob dies and your damage buffer fizzles. Direct damage FTW.

[Simps0n]

FYI, RKs do direct damage if they wish to do so.

Let's look at the fact that hunters always used to be THE damage dealing class in this game until B7. Now give me one reason why this would have to change? Pre-B7 everything was fine. Hunters did too much damage after MoM came out, yes, but they definitely do too little damage now compared to the aggro they draw and the power they waste.

I personally think that there was no need at all to lower the damage of Strength Stance and ISB. Lowering the weapon DPS would have been just fine.

And why would hunters need more CC skills? They are fine with Bard's Arrow (decent), ToA (very good) and traps (need improvement). They didn't even need Distraction shot! It is pointless!

Again, why would the role of our class need to change? Why not give that role to one of the new classes? Hunters have been around much, much longer and far more players have a hunter than they have a RK (which will probably change rather sooner than later).

[Telaron70]

OK. I couldn't stay away ;)


We seem to agree that hunters can do useful cc and lore-masters are better at it then we are. The difference between the two classes is of decree, not of kind.

Agreed

That just leaves me puzzled, I really don't understand what else the above describes than a primary and secondary role. I'm beginning to think that your bar for a secondary role is set unrealistically high.

I guess I really need to define what I mean by Primary/Secondary Role. (others of course may have a completely different definition).

Primary - Really needs no explanation - in our case it's single target damage.
Secondary Role - Now this is something that has only been on the discussion table since MoM and Turbine have set the precedent for this with the introduction of the.... wait for it.... RK (sorry but I have to talk a little about them in this context). So this, in my head, is the benchmark. Now I don't intend this to be a RK vs Hunter debate. What I am talking about is class utility, using the RK as a comparison. So... as I know little enough about RK skills I will use very broad brushstrokes here, but what I do know is this:

1. They are arguably the pre-eminent dps class right now. Fullfilling their Primary Role
2. Even whilst in a group to fulfill their primary role, they can if necessary move their attunement towards healing. I'm not saying it is as simple as flicking a switch, but it can be done. I would describe this as a Support Role.
3. They can go visit the Bard & come back as a fully fledged healer - if played right they can heal a group in a great deal of the content available, except possibly the big raid encounters. A very strong Secondary Role

Now compare this utility to us (and incidentally pretty much any other class).

1. We are a dps class, no longer the best, but that is a whole other argument.
2. We have a host of cc skills that look pretty awesome at first glance (and are for soloing) but most are only situationally useful in a group. Now I agree that the situations where they can be used are the exact same as where any other cc class can, but ours are bound by focus and or induction requirements that mean all the planets have to be in alignment to get them off once the fight has started. I've kinda gone into why I think they therefore have limited usefulness so I'll try not to repeat myself. However, a decent Support Role.
3. We can go visit the Bard & come back moaning and grumbling about how the ToF line is a bunch of crap & revert to what we do best. So by my definition no Secondary Role here then.

I think items 1 and 2 are broadly comparable, as they are for other classes too. But 3?

So my bar might well be high, but I didn't set it. Turbine did.

Having said all this I'm not sure if I even want to go the route where every class has a powerful second role - though I think we might be heading that way anyway. For us to have cc as ours would I think mean the introduction of chainable skills into presumably the ToF line where we trade our dps for full fat cc. But apart from giving players a wider skillset, which could make things more fun on an individual basis, I think it would completely negate the need to have the right class set-up in a group.

Now many would argue that this is a good thing but I'm ambivalent about this. Most content is doable anyway, even with classes dropping into their support role & playing out of their skins to get the win (probably the best sense of achievement you can get imo). The only thing that ever slows you down is waiting for a needed class to turn up. Can the devs keep up with us in terms of giving us content if even that constraint is lifted? Unlikely, without introducing more hard gating such as radiance - and we can see from other threads how popular that is.

But I'm rambling here so I'll shut up :D

[Flambergius]

But I'm rambling here so I'll shut up :D

And I have to be very brief as I'm just about go off the grid for the weekend.

Using your definitions, I'd have to disagree that RKs, particularly DPSing RKs, have stronger support role than hunters do. I think you seriously underestimate the difficulty that RKs have switching to healing quick enough if they need to do so in response to an unplanned situation. And even if successful you have now taken away a top-end dps character and gained a very mediocre healer (assuming dps-build). Hunters on the other hand can return to dps quickly and efficiently, as using our cc skills is just a short pause. ... I'll leave it at that, because point isn't in the relative merits of the classes, and they'd be apples and oranges anyways, but that there's no need to sell short the utility and practicality of our cc.

I do agree that ToF doesn't seem to make much sense. That's mostly because it just doesn't add enough useful cc to make the cost to dps worthwhile. Note however that isn't saying that our cc in ToF is bad, but rather that we do quite a bit of useful cc already in our cookie-cutter builds. But I think it's true that a hunter in ToF is further away from a cc-build loremaster than a healer rk is from a healer minstrel, so I guess it is fair to say that we don't have a strong secondary role in the sense you used it. Not that I mind, I'd rather have a strong support role than a strong secondary role.

Btw, I think for Turbine hybrid class means mainly that a class has abilities from more than one traditional role (tanking/healing/cc/dps), so maybe closer to your support role than secondary role. Not maybe the most important point in discussion we're having, but might be an indication about what might be in store for the future.

[Telaron70]

And I have to be very brief as I'm just about go off the grid for the weekend.

Using your definitions, I'd have to disagree that RKs, particularly DPSing RKs, have stronger support role than hunters do. I think you seriously underestimate the difficulty that RKs have switching to healing quick enough if they need to do so in response to an unplanned situation. And even if successful you have now taken away a top-end dps character and gained a very mediocre healer (assuming dps-build). Hunters on the other hand can return to dps quickly and efficiently, as using our cc skills is just a short pause. ... I'll leave it at that, because point isn't in the relative merits of the classes, and they'd be apples and oranges anyways, but that there's no need to sell short the utility and practicality of our cc.

I do agree that ToF doesn't seem to make much sense. That's mostly because it just doesn't add enough useful cc to make the cost to dps worthwhile. Note however that isn't saying that our cc in ToF is bad, but rather that we do quite a bit of useful cc already in our cookie-cutter builds. But I think it's true that a hunter in ToF is further away from a cc-build loremaster than a healer rk is from a healer minstrel, so I guess it is fair to say that we don't have a strong secondary role in the sense you used it. Not that I mind, I'd rather have a strong support role than a strong secondary role.

Btw, I think for Turbine hybrid class means mainly that a class has abilities from more than one traditional role (tanking/healing/cc/dps), so maybe closer to your support role than secondary role. Not maybe the most important point in discussion we're having, but might be an indication about what might be in store for the future.

hmmm.... good point about RK. Although I originally placed us as broadly equal in that role. So before I bring the wrath of Emli down upon my head ;) maybe on reflection I'd put our support role as slightly better, or at least less detrimental to our primary role than RK's, as we can at least help to prepare the battleground at no cost to ourselves IF it's needed. That's assuming that the kind of support needed is a bit of cc. If it's healing needed though I'm afraid I can't help.

I look at it like this in regards to our cc skills all presumed untraited as I am nearly always 3BM 4HM in groups:

RoT - Legendary skill - Roots up to 5 mobs for 30sec. Our most effective skill for preparing the field. Requires focus to use, so best for initial pulls but pretty useful. long CD

Bards Arrow - Legendary skill - 15sec Fear, must be used with care as you normally don't want the feared mob to a) bring back a mate or b) leave the arena & reset the fight (Forges 2nd boss Trolls - case in point). I often prefer IPO as a legendary instead. Useful in specific situations like getting a mob off the mini especially if u can direct it towards your melee group for prompt dispatch. Induction can mean that some one else has probably had time to react anyway so you have basically wasted it.

Distracting shot - Induction based 10sec stun not really long enough to be a lot of use. long CD

Traps - need to be placed outside of the killing zone if mobs aren't to be released by your own group. I put them down out of habit, they do precious little. Combat traps? ermm...

Similarly crafted traps - though stronger they also cost money. I rarely use them

Cry of predator - 15sec fear against animals. Not many animals in high end instances. (OK so there are a couple of wargs in HoM ;) I haven't tried it on them though)

I must have forgotten something cos I am really still pretty underwhelmed.

Maybe it's even that the game isn't designed in a way that cc is an imperitive, except for things like chain stunning/mezzing the Slave/Slave Master in the Rift or similar, and that isn't something we can do.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree :)

[European]

First: if you are a hunter who solely wants to do damage all the time at all costs, you probably aren't here anymore, or won't be very long, as you'd get bored as hell punching the same buttons all the time. I personally consider the hunter to be not a dps class but a killer class. We are made to do one thing, kill, as much as possible, for as long as possible. In order to kill, you need to be alive, so we have medium armor, cc and we are the BEST class to have around in emergencies, because we are flexible instantly. Got an unexpected extra pull of mobs? If only a few, fear one, and go back to killing the ones you were killing. If a lot, use RoT, and go back to killing the ones you were killing. A surprise always kills a RK, unless he manages to run away, which is not very effective killingwise.
We are still killing, no matter what situation we are in, and in the few situations that we do get overwhelmed, you can be sure that we are still killing, up to the end, while the rk frantically tries to heal himself. The only place I'd rather have a RK than a hunter is in fights like the turtle; no adds, everything planned to the smallest detail and no chance for surprises. Someone says the hunters cc is useless in DN? Not true, and on 90% of the mobs were our cc IS useless, so is the LM's cc. If ppl can just get used to the thought that we can't always do the most DPS you'll see how very usefull we are in groups, and how much safer it is to have us than a RK.

[Telaron70]

First: if you are a hunter who solely wants to do damage all the time at all costs, you probably aren't here anymore, or won't be very long, as you'd get bored as hell punching the same buttons all the time. I personally consider the hunter to be not a dps class but a killer class. We are made to do one thing, kill, as much as possible, for as long as possible. In order to kill, you need to be alive, so we have medium armor, cc and we are the BEST class to have around in emergencies, because we are flexible instantly. Got an unexpected extra pull of mobs? If only a few, fear one, and go back to killing the ones you were killing. If a lot, use RoT, and go back to killing the ones you were killing. A surprise always kills a RK, unless he manages to run away, which is not very effective killingwise.
We are still killing, no matter what situation we are in, and in the few situations that we do get overwhelmed, you can be sure that we are still killing, up to the end, while the rk frantically tries to heal himself. The only place I'd rather have a RK than a hunter is in fights like the turtle; no adds, everything planned to the smallest detail and no chance for surprises. Someone says the hunters cc is useless in DN? Not true, and on 90% of the mobs were our cc IS useless, so is the LM's cc. If ppl can just get used to the thought that we can't always do the most DPS you'll see how very usefull we are in groups, and how much safer it is to have us than a RK.

Aye, we are way more resilient than people give us credit for and it is not uncommon that my Hunter is the last one standing if the group wipes. This and good evade means I will quite happily pull the aggro from pretty much any ranged mob if say the Mini is getting heat & let it do it's worst, the melee guys will be ready to pick him up way before he can kill me. We also have good options to get a mob off us if it's getting too much, allowing us to return to our job.

Only part I would add a caveat to is this. Focus & inductions mean our skills or not quite that instant. If you are lucky you may not be locked into a swift bow induction when this bunch of adds appear and have enough focus to use RoT while the pulled mobs are outside of say the Champs AoE, so they stay rooted. If not then the couple of seconds it takes to pop Intent Concentration to build that focus (if IC is even available) can make a difference to its success. Sometimes it'll work & it's big brownie points for the Hunter, it will fail just as often in my experience. However, for this situation to arise it usually takes carelessness by someone, which of course does happen more than most of us would like to admit.

I find that still after 2 years of this game other classes are not very alert to Hunter cc (other than when we kick off with it) they will quite happily demolish our attempts much more often than they will break mezzes etc. I do sometimes wonder why I bother.

[Firak]

Dark Delving , Hall of Mirrors , Waterwheels and some other instances
clearly show the weaknes of any DPS class with inductions to fire off their skills.
and the poor interrupt and corruption removal skills don't save the day .

[Sopi]

Dark Delving , Hall of Mirrors , Waterwheels and some other instances
clearly show the weaknes of any DPS class with inductions to fire off their skills.
and the poor interrupt and corruption removal skills don't save the day .

The induction is not that much of a problem, you can work your way around that. I see that as a challenge.

But I do agree with the corruption removal. I think it should be moved to a different skill.

Currently it can only be used on targets under 50% morale. What if that corruption is a self heal? We are f***ed...

[Firak]

The induction is not that much of a problem, you can work your way around that.


Don't think you understand the meaning of DPS (Damage Per Second)
In the time the induction is loading (2 seconds for a Imp swift arrow)
a Cpt for example has already done 700 damage on average ,
and not to speak about a champ :)

Induction and focusbuilding is in our disadvantage when fighting multiple mobs .
because in the inductiontime we are doing nothing , just being hammerd upon .

[Sopi]

I understand that perfectly. But hunters are single target DPS, it is just normal to not do so well when other mobs attack you. That's how these instance are, and that is why I say it's a challenge.

[agoracy_]

Dark Delving , Hall of Mirrors , Waterwheels and some other instances
clearly show the weaknes of any DPS class with inductions to fire off their skills.
and the poor interrupt and corruption removal skills don't save the day .

I strongly disagree with this. Dark Delvings is one of the instances where hunters actually shine imo. Depending on the group you have at your disposal, ofc. With 4 blue traits equipped (-10% bow inductions) I did quite a lot of damage on Gurvand. Alslo, the gain of focus from criticals helped me to mantain up my skill rotations for the whole fight as I was moving from gurvand to the adds and back forward. Another RK (we had one in group already) would have made the minstrel job a lot more difficult as in situations like this (where you have to take insane amounts of damage) the difference from medium to light armor actually counts. Same goes for Hall of Mirrors, I still believe we are the best at burst damage and there are quite a lot of ocasions when you have to kill things fast (i.e. morovail misstresses fights). Whaterwheels, again, hunters can be of a great help (poison removal can help a lot the healer). I tank the whole instance on my hunter and I was really happy when I've been there for the first time thinking that Turbine finally released an instance where the hunters are actually useful). I am not saying now that I am happy regarding my class, but I've learn to play it at a full capacity and enjoy the few moments when I feel that my apport to the group work is crucial...

[Sopi]

...Whaterwheels, again, hunters can be of a great help (poison removal can help a lot the healer). I tank the whole instance on my hunter and I was really happy when I've been there for the first time thinking that Turbine finally released an instance where the hunters are actually useful)....

Yes, indeed.
We 2manned the boss just with a minstrel. It was epic and made me enjoy the class again. =)

[European]

The way we do DD the hunter is irreplaceable. When the tank is tanking Gurvand in front of one of the pillars I stand in the exact middle shooting at him, and if there is need for help on the adds I can turn around and hit absolutely anything without moving, since the size of the room makea all adds appear just within range of the hunter (if he's in the middle), but too far for anyone else. Also, when the hunter shoots the adds he does get aggro, and does get a lot of damage from them, which would kill any RK.

[mYhero]

A Wrong traited RK as much as an wrong traited Huntard.

Everything at the Boss encounter down there hits for shadow damage.
Or at least most of the damage taken will be shadow damage.

Switch your virtues to shadow resistance and you have barely less shadow mitigation compared to a Tank.
Thuss even a Minstrel could tank gurvad properly traited.
Rift and | or the T1.5 3 Set , LM pet, buff-food helps a lot too.


A hunter is thanks to the induction debuff not the perfect match, a usefull though.

Of course you could still roll gurvad without any of this, 5 peoples in your perfect kinship will do the trick. For the average random run, virtues are the key, not the class. A right slottet RK does outshine a wrong / right traited Huntard in DD.

[agoracy_]

The way we do DD the hunter is irreplaceable. When the tank is tanking Gurvand in front of one of the pillars I stand in the exact middle shooting at him, and if there is need for help on the adds I can turn around and hit absolutely anything without moving, since the size of the room makea all adds appear just within range of the hunter (if he's in the middle), but too far for anyone else. Also, when the hunter shoots the adds he does get aggro, and does get a lot of damage from them, which would kill any RK.

Careful with that one... Unless you are waiting for yet another nerf... What do you say about a modify to our range, 25 meters seems to be suitable... :(

In other therms, I agree with you! First time I had that fight it was quite annoying as hunter, but the next ones were very very nice.

[Firak]

Everything at the Boss encounter down there hits for shadow damage.
Or at least most of the damage taken will be shadow damage.

Switch your virtues to shadow resistance and you have barely less shadow mitigation compared to a Tank.
Thuss even a Minstrel could tank gurvad properly traited.


It is yet unknown how armor mitigation works in LOTRO.
In some MMOs, armor mitigation works by reducing a flat percentage of each hit,
In other MMOs, however, armor mitigation works by “absorbing” damage off the top of a hit It’s worth noting that in previous Turbine games, specifically Asheron’s Call 2, armor mitigation usually worked on an absorption principle.

Mitigations are capped at 30%(light) / 40%(medium) / 50%(heavy).
It takes ~8.2k rating to reach 50%.shadowmitigation ,
reduce this the incoming shadowdamage now with 50 % ?
No it do's not .

[mYhero]

t is yet unknown how armor mitigation works in LOTRO.
In some MMOs, armor mitigation works by reducing a flat percentage of each hit,
In other MMOs, however, armor mitigation works by “absorbing” damage off the top of a hit It’s worth noting that in previous Turbine games, specifically Asheron’s Call 2, armor mitigation usually worked on an absorption principle.

Mitigations are capped at 30%(light) / 40%(medium) / 50%(heavy).
It takes ~8.2k rating to reach 50%.shadowmitigation ,
reduce this the incoming shadowdamage now with 50 % ?
No it do's not .
Doesn't matter.

You will get hit for way less. Heavy armor mainly influences your common mitigation. Despite the cap.

Common mitigation doesn't count for shadow damage, only the % shadow mitigation (desipte the fact how much it really reduces). Thus Heavy Armor (Mainly Common mitigation) has a small influence.

We're talking about a few % shadow mitigation difference. Heavy - Light Armor.

The difference between medium and light is negligible, in all cases you will have a really hard time getting to the cap.


But my point is, hunter and rk, or any other class traited vs shadow damage won't have any issue survivin'.;)

[European]

A right slottet RK does outshine a wrong / right traited Huntard in DD.
As would anyone else. And a wrong slotted Runt Keeper (I dislike that only hunters have their own term for a bad one :) ) would be outshone by a good hunter too ofc.

[Vidan]

I know the OP asked that this not be turned into a "...is wrong with hunters" thread, so I apologise before I vent my frustrations.

I just feel at the moment we are literally getting shafted from every angle.

When you give every class a dps trait line, then the dps classes are going to suffer, to make up for it the classes need a solid secondary role.

RK has healing as a secondary role, everything you do in a group requires healing, so regardless of how it measures up to healers, its still a crucial secondary role (FYI I've had an rk heal in DD before, although we didnt kill the last boss, we got him down to 6k before our hunter decided to devestate a controll burn heartseeker on the boss when he was reflecting damage :/ no wonder we have a bad rep)

Champion has tanking as a secondary role, everything you do in a group requires a tank. which they can do to a decent standard, and are sometimes with their clobber a better option to guard/warden

Hunter has CC as a secondary role. Now if you potter on over to the LM forum, and find ouy how many trait for dps, you'll get a good idea of how useful crowd control is.

For the current 3 man stuff, if you think that you need healer/tank/dps for a nice balanced group, RK and Champ can fill 2 of those roles, Hunter can fill 1 :(

But its not even the lack of an effective secondary role that annoys me most, its that a class like LM you could say its class roles are cc/debuffer/pet/aoe dps - but on top of that they can spot heal, remove wound and disease FROM THE ENTIRE GROUP, share power, self heal and have more stuns than you can shake a stick at. All I want are a few skills that will make me feel like when I use it at the right time, right place, can make a difference, and maybe just maybe one day I will see LFF 5/6 Need Hunter...

[Belechael]

All I'm going to add to this conversation that has derailed is that the Lorebreaker is immensely more fun than the hunter.

Mind you, my hunter is my Avatar, the character I have played most since beta, the one that has done almost all of the deeds and quests in the game, the character I love and the only character I have decently equipped in Moria.

However, it's more fun to play a Lorebreaker right now...

I care about statistics as the next guy, but at the end of a session it's the feeling you get that matters, not hard numbers. And the Lorebreaker leaves you with a feeling of "Hell yeah!", while the Hunter with a "Erm, is that all?".

I seriously advise every hunter to roll and play a Lorebreaker. It's definitely what the Hunter class should have been from the start: fast and furious, with a lot of instant skills, able to hit on the run, aoe dps with debuffs and single dps with self buffs. Different arrows or quivers or oils or chants should give those options, it's not lorebreaking even though not strictly in lore, but in the end it could work.

Instead, they decided to give all those abilities and features to the first expansion's new class to better advertise it and to draw Magic character players from other fantasy games.

I can't know if it worked, there are no data available, but it sure is fun to play. Hunters R.I.P.

[Telaron70]

I guess derailment was inevitable. One month on & sadly the answer is still the same as it was in the first reply to the OP.

Nothing.

[Belechael]

Pizza (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=281090) hasn't helped so far, so we might try something else ;)

And btw, I greatly respect Findros and several other Hunters in the American forum for their persistence and truly great posts to help Turbine fix problems.

[Telaron70]

Even pizza doesn't work? :eek:

We are all doomed, doomed I tell ye!

[OMWiener]

Pizza (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=281090) hasn't helped so far, so we might try something else ;)

And btw, I greatly respect Findros and several other Hunters in the American forum for their persistence and truly great posts to help Turbine fix problems.

Mostly their never ending persistence, because Turbine seems to be doing nothing at all about the hunter. Most of those guys have been making posts like that since the game launched, but nothing has changed really. We have been asking for more dynamic gameplay/utility since forever. The big dps in Moria just covered our problems temporarily, but didn't solve any of them. We are still a 1-2-3 class (please don't take that litteraly, i do realise we use some other skills once in a while... But overall there is no real dynamic behind our skills) and doesn't look like that will change. Oh well, bring on Aion

[Belegathon]

Off topic, the guys before chattin bout the new star wars mmo and how peeps are gonna leave in droves - was reading a preview recently (PC Gamer i think it was) and through all the wonderful this and amazing that one thing caught my eye - '(the game) looks a bit cartoony'

LOTRO will always win until someone else creates a game that looks sooo darn good (imo anyways!)

On topic wouldnt mind seeing some info on hunters, dont really need the buff people are talking bout but would be nice to get some love of some sort soon!

My hunter = resource gatherer atm :(

[OMWiener]

Looks are secondary to gameplay. The reason why so many crappy games are released these days, is because people only look at the shiny graphics *roll eyes*

I'm sorry if this comes over bluntly, but too much attention goes to graphics these days. A lot of old games were bloody amazing and still are despite their graphics.

[Croon]

Say what you will about WoW and Blizzard (and I'm by no means a WoW-fanboy, haven't played for years), but they're atleast accurate and thorough.

In LoTRO between CDs/global CDs/weapon speed behaving weird and inconsistant, skills with game mechanic effects not working as claimed, skill descriptions having data pulled from text instead of actual numbers in algorithm, not having enough data on either skills/gear/traits (often not even any numbers, just vague text insinuating effect), the combat log being horribly inadequate and a bunch of other stuff, I'm starting to think the reason why Turbine barely releases any info/response to issues is because they don't know what the #¤&# they're doing.
And still they have the balls to ask for data when players raise issues on bugs (or unwarranted nerfs in our case), which we can't really get from anywhere (cstats for damage is a wonderful tool, but it shouldn't have to poll every x second because lotro cant timestamp logs).

I really don't see the problem in sharing game mechanics data and numbers with players. The only reasons I see for this are:
1) They're afraid we're going to discover their rash nerfs.
2) They're afraid we're going to discover their badly implemented jimmy fixes.

If I wasn't hooked the lore/kin friends/some of the content, I would have left at b7 or possibly b8 (did leave between v1b12 -> MoM).

As soon as an appealing MMO with sound game mechanics and readable/parsable complete data pops onto the market, I'm gone.

Turbine's lucky I (and I believe there are more of us) don't like cartoon/anime-graphics and a surplus of purple. And while I'm on the subject, the damage type goo on the weapons nowadays in lotro are just too much.

I have no idea how much of that was on topic, so sorry for the rant, I just had to vent.

[Silmahad]

Say what you will about WoW and Blizzard (and I'm by no means a WoW-fanboy, haven't played for years), but they're atleast accurate and thorough.

In LoTRO between CDs/global CDs/weapon speed behaving weird and inconsistant, skills with game mechanic effects not working as claimed, skill descriptions having data pulled from text instead of actual numbers in algorithm, not having enough data on either skills/gear/traits (often not even any numbers, just vague text insinuating effect), the combat log being horribly inadequate and a bunch of other stuff, I'm starting to think the reason why Turbine barely releases any info/response to issues is because they don't know what the #¤&# they're doing.
And still they have the balls to ask for data when players raise issues on bugs (or unwarranted nerfs in our case), which we can't really get from anywhere (cstats for damage is a wonderful tool, but it shouldn't have to poll every x second because lotro cant timestamp logs).

I really don't see the problem in sharing game mechanics data and numbers with players. The only reasons I see for this are:
1) They're afraid we're going to discover their rash nerfs.
2) They're afraid we're going to discover their badly implemented jimmy fixes.

If I wasn't hooked the lore/kin friends/some of the content, I would have left at b7 or possibly b8 (did leave between v1b12 -> MoM).

As soon as an appealing MMO with sound game mechanics and readable/parsable complete data pops onto the market, I'm gone.

Turbine's lucky I (and I believe there are more of us) don't like cartoon/anime-graphics and a surplus of purple. And while I'm on the subject, the damage type goo on the weapons nowadays in lotro are just too much.

I have no idea how much of that was on topic, so sorry for the rant, I just had to vent.

/signed

I am a WoW-veteran and left for LotRO because I was exhausted of permaraiding and I always was a LotR-Fan, I read the books (LotRO, Silmarillion, Hobbit and others) a dozen times, I love the lore and I fell in love with the graphics in LotRO.

But graphics aren't all. If I had to judge about general mechanics, combat system, class balance, creation of demanding, varied and amazing boss encounters, testing and hotfixing, WoW wins by miles...