Post of the Month

[Silmahad]

Great post on the US-Forum, that is revealing everything, I already suspected:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=274726

Even the conclusions of the post are well thought.

[BinabikErebor]

Very nice post indeed -- and it's what I've been experiencing too.

1) Light oil is probably more important than ever.
2) Bow of the righteous is more important than ever
2) I run in endurance the first few seconds of the fight to let the others gather aggro
3) Then I switch to strength stance and start firing away.
4) if the boss heals up (nice when that happens) I switch to endurance again, take a powerpot and let power rebuild a bit, then switch to strength again and start burning the boss down.

Before it would have been

Endurance until the boss is half way, then switch to strength.

Gotta love hunter.

One part I didn't like about the post is the objectivation of classes. But that might have been the purpose of the post :)

I'd take the hunter along if he was a nice person no matter what dps he's doing :)

Binabik

[Scappydog]

Yes a very good post. Our situation is all the more frustrating due to total silence from anyone in the Turbine Dev/System team and the Hunter section of Book 8 patch notes is a joke. For me, Book 8 just rubs salt into the Book 7 wound.

[OMWiener]

Yes a very good post. Our situation is all the more frustrating due to total silence from anyone in the Turbine Dev/System team and the Hunter section of Book 8 patch notes is a joke. For me, Book 8 just rubs salt into the Book 7 wound.


Yep, posts like that bring joy and sorrow at the same time :(

[European]

But, but, now we can slow mobs by up to TEN percent more!!!! :)

[agoracy_]

Sad, but true.
I read that post, I did it twice actually. One objective opinion, without throwing poison there and there... This guy is right... Hopefully we will see improvement for hunters in the incoming books. With the DN raid out the differences between classes will be even more noticeable and maybe devs will... you know.. change things...


But, but, now we can slow mobs by up to TEN percent more!!!! :)

Hmm.. I saw your bow last Friday, you'll have less problems when soloing from now on, think you have 9 on that legacy, if I remember well?... I did that as well with my first legendary bow, but was quite newbie, didn't realized the thingy is bugged and I pumped points in like mad :D. To be honest, this was the exact balancing we needed, with this legacy working properly, I am sure I will feel more important in a fellowship from now on!

[Sirak]

Raelly nice post, but also very sad. I am pretty sure that what he wrote is write, even few percent different wouldnt change the overall outcome. To be behind guardians, champions and far behing RK in single-target DPS (our prime focus) is a shame for the devs.

[nightbyday]

1) Hunters' soloability is more or less fine.
2) Hunters are no longer a Tier 1 dps class in groups.
3) Endurance stance has been rendered entirely useless.
4) Unless you specifically need a ranged tank (ie, for tentacles in The Watcher), there is almost never a reason to bring a Hunter instead of a Runekeeper, Champion, or at times even a DPS Guardian.

I have to totally agree with this summary.

Fixes? just fix the legendary 5 traits slotted lines.

Simple make it so that the five trait legendaries work, either dps increase with out that HUGE power issue, dps increase for melee with (and/or) some sort of healing mechanism and finally for the third set a workable CC trait line.

Solo wise hunter has no real issue once you relearn what to do but they have slowed down alot due to prior fight preperation (eg trap etc).

Top dpser is purly legacy and or situational, hunter can be top dps or 3rd (mostly not top)

Endurance? whats that? rare for me to use most groups precision and strength. Before chage DEV did comment that the adjustments would allow hunters to be more 'aggresive'.


If it was me i would increase the time duration of burn hot and power cost reduction when cool burn slotted. I would make a 'bow and blade' build give a better heal focus return via agile rejoiner (maybe always active no parry response needed... some thng like that) and finally the third legendary reduce all cool downs for CC skills and make the more power full (root more, longer and traps in fight).

Going to be hard bringing hunter back up to a decent level again and the thread poster is right DPS is not the real answer.

[omissis]

The simple fact he talked mostly about Endurance and Strength stance should be more than enough to not trust a single word he wrote down.

Combine this with the fact that all comes from one single DPS measure on one single fight against one single, specific, boss we know almost nothing about (resistances, weakness, etc...) and you can have the whole picture: b.s.

First and foremost the problem with hunters is just the opposite of what he claimed: soloing. If you have to fight single mobs it is not a big deal, every class with just auto-attacks can do that. But a lot of times you have to face more than one mobs at the same time, and that's where hunters really sucks unless, unless, you want to loose a lot of time preparing for the fight, setting traps, looking for the right distances and positions, using bard's arrows, etc... with the results of slowing a lot (too much I have to say) the fight. Not talking about what happens with all the induction skills when you have a couple of melee mobs on you. Anyhow, it is not a real issue considering that soloing is never a big problem.

Now about grouping. Well it is a fake issue too, almost. If hunters, like many other classes (let's say players), were not so obsessed about high morale and high power probably most of the problems will magically disappear. There are some people with 5000+ morale hunters that have no idea where to check their ICPR. With a good enough ICPR (900+) in precision, or strength stance with -aggro legacies and a really good tank (if you get aggro with induction skills slowed down the dps becomes terrible), a hunter is a top-notch dps machine. Probably it won't be at the very top of dps parsers in every situations and against every mobs, but who cares?

The nerf has been severe, I concede that, but nevertheless hunters are still one of the best dps classes with a couple of "tricks" that can help a lot in grouping, obviously only if hunters knew how and when to use them: I have seen very few hunters using bard's arrow or distracting shot against a mob with the healer as target (probably they do not even have "target of the target" active - LOL), like I have never seen a hunter using RoT on the fly to keep a bad pull on distance.

Are these the hunters that complain about how hunter is a "weak" class?

[BinabikErebor]

The nerf has been severe, I concede that, but nevertheless hunters are still one of the best dps classes with a couple of "tricks" that can help a lot in grouping, obviously only if hunters knew how and when to use them: I have seen very few hunters using bard's arrow or distracting shot against a mob with the healer as target (probably they do not even have "target of the target" active - LOL), like I have never seen a hunter using RoT on the fly to keep a bad pull on distance.

Are these the hunters that complain about how hunter is a "weak" class?

Bard's arrow is a scare -- the enemy you hit better get intercepted by a guardian soon or you got 1 more enemy to fight (if you're lucky - and as a hunter you usually stand behind the tank somewhere, so steering the mob in the right direction is a bit tricky when you're not soloing.

Distracting shot -- rather short if you're not traited for it --
rain of thorns -- idd it helps -- but the cooldown is long enough to keep it for emergencies.

So, even with a bad pull, let the fs deal with it for a sec, (unless you see instantly that it is an emergency :) ), throw the RoT in when it turns out difficult and step back from the rooted mobs.

I'm one of those hunters who uses "Target forwarding" -- easier to remove poison if needed. Target's target is useful in some situations, but not all. Like when you're kiting an enemy, it will tell you when you have lost aggro and have to turn around to regain aggro to continue kiting it.

It's a tricky class Hunter -- it keeps amazing me they call it easymode :) My LM is easier to survive with ;)

tried precision (traited) -- it doesn't float my boat -- I miss the slow on my quickshot too much and barbed arrow costs too much power in comparison.

Rain of thorns is a scare too btw.. it does so much damage, the next thing that happens very often is that those rooted enemies take out the hunter. One of the reasons why I wouldn't use it on mobs that just got pulled. Better let the fs build some aggro first -- will save your mini some work on healing the hunter (who should rarely need any heals)

Binabik

[Silmahad]

The nerf has been severe, I concede that, but nevertheless hunters are still one of the best dps classes with a couple of "tricks" that can help a lot in grouping, obviously only if hunters knew how and when to use them: I have seen very few hunters using bard's arrow or distracting shot against a mob with the healer as target (probably they do not even have "target of the target" active - LOL), like I have never seen a hunter using RoT on the fly to keep a bad pull on distance.

Are these the hunters that complain about how hunter is a "weak" class?

One question: Where in the current content, do you really need this CC, and with "needing" I mean, if you don't do it, you will probably wipe? I will answer...nowhere. In the current content you need just damage and healing, not even a real tank in 95% of all situations. As faster you down a mob in an encounter as less risky will be the situation. My last instance run with a guardian is months ago, get a minstrel, 2 x champions, a captain and fill up with hunters and runekeepers and you can do every instance, even Gurvang 2.0.

Next question: Which class can do both, damage and healing?

[Silmahad]

Rain of thorns is a scare too btw.. it does so much damage, the next thing that happens very often is that those rooted enemies take out the hunter. One of the reasons why I wouldn't use it on mobs that just got pulled. Better let the fs build some aggro first -- will save your mini some work on healing the hunter (who should rarely need any heals)

I know what you mean, I use RoT at the Watcher for the 12 spawning tentacles. Hit Intent Concentration a few seconds before and then unleash RoT and an additional HoA. This helps a lot. Still enough time to turn back to the Watcher and get your tentacle to tank.

[BinabikErebor]

I know what you mean, I use RoT at the Watcher for the 12 spawning tentacles. Hit Intent Concentration a few seconds before and then unleash RoT and an additional HoA. This helps a lot. Still enough time to turn back to the Watcher and get your tentacle to tank.

I'm affraid I don't know what you mean :) Never been to the watcher, but I'd think it better to first fire HoA and only after fire RoT. HoA tends to unlock the enemies you rooted with RoT. Right ?

Binabik

[Scatha the Worm]

To be actually honest, I didn't read all of it. I KNOW how the situation is. Getting reminded of it, just makes me want to go burn Turbine HQ.

I'm just staying in this game because the people I usually group still make it fun, and because I (smartly) levelled a captain to feel useful.

I find my disagreement with the linked post in one thing:
- Burst DPS is not a viable class role.

We should be top ST DPS in all flavours, we are paying that cost in survivability, utility, power problems. It's like those posts that would also settle with the 3rd ISB arrow performing just a bit better than AA damage, when that clearly doesn't fix anything...

[omissis]

One question: Where in the current content, do you really need this CC, and with "needing" I mean, if you don't do it, you will probably wipe? I will answer...nowhere. In the current content you need just damage and healing, not even a real tank in 95% of all situations. As faster you down a mob in an encounter as less risky will be the situation. My last instance run with a guardian is months ago, get a minstrel, 2 x champions, a captain and fill up with hunters and runekeepers and you can do every instance, even Gurvang 2.0.

Next question: Which class can do both, damage and healing?


LoTRO is a rather easy mmorpg. For this very reason actually you do not need anything in particular to complete 95% of its content. You do not need captains, minstrels, champions, hunters, wardens, rune keepers, guardians, burglars, and lore-masters. Extrapolating only hunters from this list just to say they are not really needed is a very bad exercise of rhetoric.

But the most important thing, that you and many others seems to forget, is not if you can do an instance without a specific class but if you can do that istance with that specific class.

So the right question is not:

Where in the current content, do you really need this CC...

but

Does the use of CC prevent you in any way from completing an instance?

(you can replace "CC" with "hunter", "burglar", or any thing some close minded people think is too gimped to deserve being used or grouped with)

[Merired]

The simple fact he talked mostly about Endurance and Strength stance should be more than enough to not trust a single word he wrote down.

Combine this with the fact that all comes from one single DPS measure on one single fight against one single, specific, boss we know almost nothing about (resistances, weakness, etc...)

Actually we do. Knowledge of the Lore-master?

and you can have the whole picture: b.s.

First and foremost the problem with hunters is just the opposite of what he claimed: soloing. If you have to fight single mobs it is not a big deal, every class with just auto-attacks can do that. But a lot of times you have to face more than one mobs at the same time, and that's where hunters really sucks unless, unless, you want to loose a lot of time preparing for the fight, setting traps, looking for the right distances and positions, using bard's arrows, etc... with the results of slowing a lot (too much I have to say) the fight. Not talking about what happens with all the induction skills when you have a couple of melee mobs on you. Anyhow, it is not a real issue considering that
Wrong.
soloing is never a big problem.
This.
Now about grouping. Well it is a fake issue too, almost. If hunters, like many other classes (let's say players), were not so obsessed about high morale and high power probably most of the problems will magically disappear. There are some people with 5000+ morale hunters that have no idea where to check their ICPR. With a good enough ICPR (900+) in precision, or strength stance with -aggro legacies and a really good tank (if you get aggro with induction skills slowed down the dps becomes terrible), a hunter is a top-notch dps machine.
Or you can take an RK and only need a decent tank. And with only a decent tank, a hunter has to switch to endurance and lose his DPS.
Probably it won't be at the very top of dps parsers in every situations and against every mobs, but who cares?

The thing is, unless some very specific conditions are met, it won't be even close to the top for the mobs most people care about.

The nerf has been severe, I concede that, but nevertheless hunters are still one of the best dps classes with a couple of "tricks" that can help a lot in grouping, obviously only if hunters knew how and when to use them: I have seen very few hunters using bard's arrow or distracting shot against a mob with the healer as target (probably they do not even have "target of the target" active - LOL), like I have never seen a hunter using RoT on the fly to keep a bad pull on distance.

Are these the hunters that complain about how hunter is a "weak" class?
RKs and champions have tricks too.

And sorry, but overall your post is quite ridiculous and offending. Your only arguments against the (US) OP's analysis are that 'some players who play hunters are clueless about playing hunters', in fact insinuating that any player complaining about hunters' cannot play. That's nonsense.

Having said that, I should only add that my experiences and conclusions about the hunter are sadly quite similar to the post that started this debate.

[OMWiener]

The simple fact he talked mostly about Endurance and Strength stance should be more than enough to not trust a single word he wrote down.

Combine this with the fact that all comes from one single DPS measure on one single fight against one single, specific, boss we know almost nothing about (resistances, weakness, etc...) and you can have the whole picture: b.s.

First and foremost the problem with hunters is just the opposite of what he claimed: soloing. If you have to fight single mobs it is not a big deal, every class with just auto-attacks can do that. But a lot of times you have to face more than one mobs at the same time, and that's where hunters really sucks unless, unless, you want to loose a lot of time preparing for the fight, setting traps, looking for the right distances and positions, using bard's arrows, etc... with the results of slowing a lot (too much I have to say) the fight. Not talking about what happens with all the induction skills when you have a couple of melee mobs on you. Anyhow, it is not a real issue considering that soloing is never a big problem.

Now about grouping. Well it is a fake issue too, almost. If hunters, like many other classes (let's say players), were not so obsessed about high morale and high power probably most of the problems will magically disappear. There are some people with 5000+ morale hunters that have no idea where to check their ICPR. With a good enough ICPR (900+) in precision, or strength stance with -aggro legacies and a really good tank (if you get aggro with induction skills slowed down the dps becomes terrible), a hunter is a top-notch dps machine. Probably it won't be at the very top of dps parsers in every situations and against every mobs, but who cares?

The nerf has been severe, I concede that, but nevertheless hunters are still one of the best dps classes with a couple of "tricks" that can help a lot in grouping, obviously only if hunters knew how and when to use them: I have seen very few hunters using bard's arrow or distracting shot against a mob with the healer as target (probably they do not even have "target of the target" active - LOL), like I have never seen a hunter using RoT on the fly to keep a bad pull on distance.

Are these the hunters that complain about how hunter is a "weak" class?

Lol i call BS on this...Hunters with 5000 morale not knowing where to check their icpr. Sorry mate, i have 5200 morale and 960 icpr and i still have problems with power in precision.

Soloing is a problem? please mate, with low cut/rain of thorns/traps/bards arrow/resolute aim you need to be a pretty bad hunter to struggle with soloing....

And sorry, but overall your post is quite ridiculous and offending. Your only arguments against the (US) OP's analysis are that 'some players who play hunters are clueless about playing hunters', in fact insinuating that any player complaining about hunters' cannot play. That's nonsense.


This guy is right. Its funny how you dismissed that post without proving anything yourself and actually indirectly (with you comment about morale) proved you know little of the hunter and it's gear.

[BinabikErebor]

Soloing is a problem? please mate, with low cut/rain of thorns/traps/bards arrow/resolute aim you need to be a pretty bad hunter to struggle with soloing....



Yup -- bad hunter here :) -- I've seen those respawn circles a lot more since I've been inside Moria -- and only partly because of falling in deep pits. (** rubs admiringly over his "Well Traveled" title **) -- I've never been a high dps hunter in the first place, I prefer to be able to hit an enemy for longer (low power consumption) and with those self-healing enemies, I think it's a more profitable way. or is it ? Not the first time that I'm the only one still hitting the enemy because the rest of the fellowship just ran out of power(hoping for a fellowship manoeuvre) -- at which point I would like to be able to powershare :)

Btw, last night I helped out with book 5 c5 in Moria -- the one with all the camps. Is it just me or does it seem like my hunter slows down inside those instances ?

Shortly before I had been firing away on Caveclaws at my regular pace -- once in the instance I fealt so darn slow.


Binabik

[European]

To be actually honest, I didn't read all of it. I KNOW how the situation is. Getting reminded of it, just makes me want to go burn Turbine HQ.


Totally agree. While precise, the post is just another summary of all the frustration we hunters have had since book 7. Really depressing if you ask me, and imho totally unnecessary.

[Merired]

This guy is right. Its funny how you dismissed that post without proving anything yourself and actually indirectly (with you comment about morale) proved you know little of the hunter and it's gear.

I think you must have misread my post. A hunter not knowing where to check his ICPR (and that's what he was talking about, and what I replied to) is a clueless hunter, even if he can get to over 5k morale. And I know it's perfectly possible to have that morale, high agility and ICPR, and never said it wasn't.

[nicbass]

...Combine this with the fact that all comes from one single DPS measure on one single fight against one single, specific, boss...


Sorry, but did you actually read the post?

...Recently I've been comparing turtle raid parses...

...Here is an example of a recent parse on my Guardian...

As this is a single mob, straight forward fight, this makes it a pretty good proving ground for comparing the DPS of various classes.

[OMWiener]

I think you must have misread my post. A hunter not knowing where to check his ICPR (and that's what he was talking about, and what I replied to) is a clueless hunter, even if he can get to over 5k morale. And I know it's perfectly possible to have that morale, high agility and ICPR, and never said it wasn't.


I think you misread mine. I was quoting you because i agreed with you :) . The comment about morale was directed to the other guy as he indeed assumed everyone with 5K morale didn't know what icpr is

[Merired]

I think you misread mine. I was quoting you because i agreed with you :) . The comment about morale was directed to the other guy as he indeed assumed everyone with 5K morale didn't know what icpr is

Oh ok, you're right then, I misread yours.

[omissis]

As this is a single mob, straight forward fight, this makes it a pretty good proving ground for comparing the DPS of various classes.

Do you know the resistances of the turtle.

Let me guess: no.

So, what are we actually talking about here?

Show me a screenshot of the turtle resistances first and then we can seriously discuss about those data. Otherwise it is just plain and simple cheering. Someone said that the turtle is weak against tactical damage for example, but no screenshot to prove it too.

And not, that is not a good proving ground. It only proves, or at least try to prove, what is the best dps class against the turtle. One simple example because someone has some understanding problem: try to place a Formula 1 car in a rally circuit and see what happens. Untill you do not know all variables in play, or at least the most important ones, we are talking about nothing.

@OMWiener: I have a 4600 morale, 860 ICPR hunter, I have completed all the instances in game but the watcher, and apart from the very end of turtle raid I have never had power problem (thanks to mother nature that gave me a brain I now know how to control my power consumption during that fight), and none in the group have never felt lack of dps, even in "hunter-centric" fellowships. So the cases are two: or I am a complete liar, that can even be, considering you do not know me at all, or probably you should check again your knowledge about the hunter. After all there are still some people around that think the earth is flat.

[Haelewulf]

Do you know the resistances of the turtle.

Let me guess: no.

So, what are we actually talking about here?

Show me a screenshot of the turtle resistances first and then we can seriously discuss about those data. Otherwise it is just plain and simple cheering. Someone said that the turtle is weak against tactical damage for example, but no screenshot to prove it too.

And not, that is not a good proving ground. It only proves, or at least try to prove, what is the best dps class against the turtle. One simple example because someone has some understanding problem: try to place a Formula 1 car in a rally circuit and see what happens. Untill you do not know all variables in play, or at least the most important ones, we are talking about nothing.

Here you go.
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3634172&postcount=24

Man, how 'bout that. The Earth IS flat after all! *chuckles*

[omissis]

Here you go.
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3634172&postcount=24

Man, how 'bout that. The Earth IS flat after all! *chuckles*


Thanks for the link.

[European]

Thanks for the link, though I don't see how we can trust that picture when it clearly states something wrong, namely that it's NOT immune to conjunctions. What else could be wrong too then?

[OMWiener]

@OMWiener: I have a 4600 morale, 860 ICPR hunter, I have completed all the instances in game but the watcher, and apart from the very end of turtle raid I have never had power problem (thanks to mother nature that gave me a brain I now know how to control my power consumption during that fight), and none in the group have never felt lack of dps, even in "hunter-centric" fellowships. So the cases are two: or I am a complete liar, that can even be, considering you do not know me at all, or probably you should check again your knowledge about the hunter. After all there are still some people around that think the earth is flat.

About the power problems: Just because i say i have power problems doesn't mean i'm some kind of noob running out of power. It means i can't do the rotation/damage i would like to cuz i would be out of power before half of the fight. So the fact that you have no trouble with power with only 860 icpr means you're probably gimping your damage by a lot no matter what your group "feels" (cuz their feeling is objective, right? much better then the actual parsings the guy in the US did). I'll say it again: Excessive power conservation means you have power problems..

[OMWiener]

Thanks for the link, though I don't see how we can trust that picture when it clearly states something wrong, namely that it's NOT immune to conjunctions. What else could be wrong too then?

The picture is correct. The information from the LM has always been like that.

[European]

The picture is correct. The information from the LM has always been like that.

Ok. Seems we can't trust the information that LM's get then. How comforting to know that the GM's have another uncorrected bug.

[Haelewulf]

Thanks for the link.

No problem.

[omissis]

Then you must be a liar... Seriously mate, you really wanna go down this path?

Firstly, 4600 morale and 860 icpr tells me you're not geared very well. To sacrifice that kind of morale for that low an ICPR? If i was running around with 4600 morale i would be running around with 1000+icpr, but then again tanking the tentacles on watcher 2.0 (both of them) with only 4600 morale is tricky at best.

I have 6/6 Radiance (actually I use the trapsetter sholders for better stats), 2 Diamond Stud, Ancient Signet Pendant, the trinket with the feather as picture (the one with -3% ranged mit. and 1.5 melee mit.), 2 carved sapphire ring, 2 runes on LI's with +84 ICPR and +15 fate, 2 bracelet with ICPR better than insidious cuff and +40 agi (do not remember the name), and the cloak with fate and agility on it.



I was server first and euro third on watcher 1.0 and server second on Watcher 2.0. We have it on farm since shortly after it launched. I've done every instance multiple times (non-exploit) and you wanna come in here and e-peen over me? just lol mate. I know how to play my class and I know how to play the game. At least I'm not spouting that every hunter with 5K+ morale is stupid..That was you ;)


Congratulations, did you solo it? Can I see a screenshot please?

And it is you the one with the e-peen problems. I was not boasting anything but the fact that I have no power problem (if you call that an e-peen problem than you have a very low threshold for that definition). It is you that needed to put silly credentials above you to strengthen some weak argumentations.

And I have never ever said that hunters with 5K morale are stupid, not even anything that resemble that comment. Only that some hunters, like other classes (players), think too much about maximum morale/power and not enough about ICPR.


About the power problems: Just because i say i have power problems doesn't mean i'm some kind of noob running out of power. It means i can't do the rotation/damage i would like to cuz i would be out of power before half of the fight. So the fact that you have no trouble with power with only 860 icpr means you're probably gimping your damage by a lot no matter what your group "feels" (cuz their feeling is objective, right? much better then the actual parsings the guy in the US did). But again, all you did was spout some big words, without proving anything (your group feeling isn't proof, you know). your first post was condescending and this isn't any better. On top of that you have shown you have a mediocre build (and have little knowledege of potential builds) and gimp your damage just so you can come here lying about power problems. I'll say it again: Excessive power conservation means you have power problems.. Hope your brain is capable of understanding that as well.

Oh and lol @ the comment about the resistances. What? Your group didn't "feel" the resistances? Ever heard of an LM?


About the power consumption: what you are basically saying is that you want to use the best and most powerful skill rotations 24/7 with no power problem. This is not noobism, this is pure non sense. Why not removing the power once and for all then? If you do not want to have power problems than what are power and ICPR for?

[BinabikErebor]

I have 6/6 Radiance (actually I use the trapsetter sholders for better stats), 2 Diamond Stud, Ancient Signet Pendant, the trinket with the feather as picture (the one with -3% ranged mit. and 1.5 melee mit.), 2 carved sapphire ring, 2 runes on LI's with +84 ICPR

**** cut out some stuff that might be interesting but I'm not reading it because of the excess of abuse and attitude ****

t removing the power once and for all then? If you do not want to have power problems than what are power and ICPR for?

Stop it folks -- take a step back, breathe, and write something that's more fun to read.
OMWiener, I've read a lot of your posts and they have been interesting without exception. Omisis, we know eachother from the previous discussion and the same attitude emerged.
No need for it -- it might contain interesting stuff, but it makes you sound like an idiot -- which you probably are not.



Binabik

[nightbyday]

Then you must be a liar... Seriously mate, you really wanna go down this path?



And your talking carp too, just because some one has 4600hp and 860 icpr does not mean they are poorly equipped. They might have minus incoming damage orientated legacies and items, have will pumped up (hard to do), low ICPR = low fate and low ICPR items only nothing else, 4,600 moral is around the normal for most hunters who have not gone mad on the HP is king ethos (which is crap, only place huge hp realy counts in PvP). An extra 400hp in PvE is two hits in an instance and 4 hits outside, worth it in some instances. Also coming in here an going 'look at my sports car' and i have done xxxx and yyyy also means nothing really, thats e-peen. I AM TEH BEST just rubs everyone, of course like wise it doesn't mean your a noob either :p, just don't measure others by the way you do things, its a play style thing. :D

Like wise suggesting a hunter with 5k moral is stupid, thats thier playstyle and some times as i have pointed out you do need this. It again also does not mean they are poorly equiped etc etc.

HOWEVER...

I will agree for a hunter to say they have no power issues in strentgh stance would be to talk utter rubbish, for hunters to be 'king of the hill' they do have to be strength stance maniacs', or rather hunters can not do the damage they would like to (and still not pull aggro etc) because of power issues. Dev has seen to it that hunters can have LARGE short term DPS, HUGE very short damage or a BURST and/or resonable sustained dps. I agree no power issues does mean less damage a good DPS hunter (and i suspect OMW fits this catagory) will be doing as much dps as they can and will always be 'sweating' over thier power pool only to find quest frequently they are desperate for the power pot to come off cool down.


Basically OMW's main point is hunters have power issues ( is that right?), Dev has designed it that way on all classes, HIGH dps = high power consuption, Low dps = low power consuption (much the same as healing) and to cap it off icpr was also nerfed in book7. To say you do high dps and have low power constumption is rubbish.

[OMWiener]

About the power consumption: what you are basically saying is that you want to use the best and most powerful skill rotations 24/7 with no power problem. This is not noobism, this is pure non sense. Why not removing the power once and for all then? If you do not want to have power problems than what are power and ICPR for?

I'm not gonna comment on the rest of your post, as it's just not worth it.

Cwood - somewhat the father of the focus burn build- said it best and I quote: "Those with power problems aren't doing anything wrong. It's those who are without power problems that are doing something wrong." (when it comes to dps)

A hunter should always be borderline to power problems, otherwise he's not doing his full potential. Borderline means power pots and other means of ICPR gear he can get his hands on.

It's not about having no power problems. It's about doing comparable damage to the other T1 dps-classes without running out of power in 2 minutes. That is what you missed from the OP and what you continue to miss from my post. If i do a skill rotation that would bring me on par with the RK or champ, i do indeed do not want to be in excessive power problems. If I do use a skill rotation that would put me on par with champs/RKs now (as confirmed by parsings!) i'm not even borderline to power problems. I'm flying over it with 2000 miles an hour. That is the issue at hand.

[OMWiener]

I will agree for a hunter to say they have no power issues in strentgh stance would be to talk utter rubbish, for hunters to be 'king of the hill' they do have to be strength stance maniacs', or rather hunters can not do the damage they would like to (and still not pull aggro etc) because of power issues. Dev has seen to it that hunters can have LARGE short term DPS, HUGE very short damage or a BURST and/or resonable sustained dps. I agree no power issues does mean less damage a good DPS hunter (and i suspect OMW fits this catagory) will be doing as much dps as they can and will always be 'sweating' over thier power pool only to find quest frequently they are desperate for the power pot to come off cool down.


Basically OMW's main point is hunters have power issues ( is that right?), Dev has designed it that way on all classes, HIGH dps = high power consuption, Low dps = low power consuption (much the same as healing) and to cap it off icpr was also nerfed in book7. To say you do high dps and have low power constumption is rubbish.

aye that is indeed my point. Thanks for outlining it again and perhaps more clearly.

And I agree, i shouldn't have e-peened back and will edit my posts. I have just argued this point so much, it's becoming very tiresome and just went overboard a bit. Posts edited and my apologies to Omissis and the rest :P. My opinion stays the same however ^^

[nightbyday]

aye that is indeed my point. Thanks for outlining it again and perhaps more clearly.

And I agree, i shouldn't have e-peened back and will edit my posts. I have just argued this point so much, it's becoming very tiresome and just went overboard a bit.

I do that all the time, in fact i can go so over board i take the whole crew with me :D

[Lenin_]

Don't fight guys, we should be giving cookies to each other, because it will take a LONG time until turbine give us some.

Anyway to that OP by US guy, their forums are down, but if I remember right he said he was using 3BM/4HM, whole turtle fight was in strength stance, powered by LM and did around 100k total dmg. Well I don't know but in my opinion he could do more with such setup.

Edit: Plus he was using 1st age crossbow, and the total dmg was 97k, seems fishy to me.

[omissis]

Don't fight guys, we should be giving cookies to each other, because it will take a LONG time until turbine give us some.

Anyway to that OP by US guy, their forums are down, but if I remember right he said he was using 3BM/4HM, whole turtle fight was in strength stance, powered by LM and did around 100k total dmg. Well I don't know but in my opinion he could do more with such setup.

Edit: Plus he was using 1st age crossbow, and the total dmg was 97k, seems fishy to me.

Can be, but on the other hand you shouldn't expect a single class in that raid to deliver much more than 1/6 of the boss morale in damage. Unless you are the only dps class in there. Let's say 2 healers do only auto-attack damage, then other 2-3 people in there have sub-par dps, let's say 1 burglar, 1 captain, and 1 lore-master (I am not saying that LM's, burglar's, and captains are gimped low dps classes, it is just an example), then we have 7-8 high to very high dps guys/gals in there. If all the high dps classes deliver from 90K to 100K morale damage then the 2-3 low dps class can only deliver 50-60K total damage (that's 20K per head) and I have not taken into account auto-attack dps from healers. Even if you have only 5 to 6 dps focused classes in the raid (ca. 100K damage each) the figures do not add up very well (80K morale left to divide again amongst 6-7 people).

From the US post it comes out that 1GRD+1RK+1HNT=323K damage. In the same raid there were 2 more hunters, 1 more runekeeper (dps traited), 1 champion, 1 burglar, 1 captain, 1 lore-master, 2 minstrels. All these other players left out from the count (and we are talking about 9 people, with at least other 4 dps centered classes) did more or less the same damage (688K-323K=365K) to the turtle. Quite odd, isn't it?

Or the parser (I can be really wrong because I have never used one in my mmorpg-life) doesn't take into account partials, b/p/e, damage soaked, resistances, dot's, special damage (fire-light oils for example), etc...

EDIT: it is possible, and if yes then I ask if it is "normal", that with the parser you obtain more damage inflicted than the morale a creature has?

[Silmahad]

Can be, but on the other hand you shouldn't expect a single class in that raid to deliver much more than 1/6 of the boss morale in damage. Unless you are the only dps class in there. Let's say 2 healers do only auto-attack damage, then other 2-3 people in there have sub-par dps, let's say 1 burglar, 1 captain, and 1 lore-master (I am not saying that LM's, burglar's, and captains are gimped low dps classes, it is just an example), then we have 7-8 high to very high dps guys/gals in there. If all the high dps classes deliver from 90K to 100K morale damage then the 2-3 low dps class can only deliver 50-60K total damage (that's 20K per head) and I have not taken into account auto-attack dps from healers. Even if you have only 5 to 6 dps focused classes in the raid (ca. 100K damage each) the figures do not add up very well (80K morale left to divide again amongst 6-7 people).

From the US post it comes out that 1GRD+1RK+1HNT=323K damage. In the same raid there were 2 more hunters, 1 more runekeeper (dps traited), 1 champion, 1 burglar, 1 captain, 1 lore-master, 2 minstrels. All these other players left out from the count (and we are talking about 9 people, with at least other 4 dps centered classes) did more or less the same damage (688K-323K=365K) to the turtle. Quite odd, isn't it?

Or the parser (I can be really wrong because I have never used one in my mmorpg-life) doesn't take into account partials, b/p/e, damage soaked, resistances, dot's, special damage (fire-light oils for example), etc...

EDIT: it is possible, and if yes then I ask if it is "normal", that with the parser you obtain more damage inflicted than the morale a creature has?

Answer: He had a FA lvl 59 crossbow, the other hunters had crap as equip and so it's of course possible. Equip matters in this encounter, besides skillspec.

My usual skillspec is 3 BM / 1 ToF (High Concentration) / 3 HM too, and I know dozens of hunters who use that too. Reason: It's the best skillspec for the Watcher, enough threat to tank the tentacles without leaving aggro to the melees for a bad kick, still enough damage, almost self sufficient, without being a burden for the LM, enough Focus and Power to even get RoA into my shotrotation besides PS (in about 75% of all times you can unleash RoA AND PS without blocking one skill execution with the other due to lack of focus) and this skill sucks TONS of power, but it is extra damage and I even use this for single target encounters like the Turtle.

No need to change this skill spec for the turtle or even other fellowship content or even solo play, it's the perfect compromise for lazy respeccers.

So show me a hunter who uses QS, SB, PS and RoA with Needfull Haste on cd and Intent Concentration on cd (and therefore the occasional MS too) in his normal shot rotation, who doesn't have power problems even with 3 BM / 1 FS (High Concentration) / 3 HM (Swift Recovery).

I could imagine a 4 BM / 1 ToF (High Concentration) / 2 HM spec with 2 x - % power legacies, LM support and Celebrant on CD...this might work, not tried it yet.

So my conclusion is: Hunters without power problems either use Barbed Arrow for longer induction times and less skill uses in total -> less power costs (and should be shot for this) and/or don't use Needfull Haste on cooldown (faster skill execution -> more power consume -> but also more dps) and/or do not spec swift recovery for a shorter cd on Needfull Haste (as before, but even more power consume -> but also even more dps) and/or don't spec Strong Draw (less PS, more QS -> less power consume, but also less dps) and/or don't use RoA on single targets. Needfull Haste and RoA are power drainer monsters, but they are pure dps. Either way...they won't do the dps they could do.

PS: My definition for "power problems" is already fullfilled, if I will need LM injections and/or have to drink Celebrant Pots on CD to get over the length of a fight without abandoning a single segment of my shot rotation, besides using Intent Concentration (High Concentraion traited) on cd.

...and pls don't look too much on this damage amounts in total, divide them by the fight time in seconds. DPS is so much better für comparison.

[WindRider]

Ironically, we have been called easy mode by tactical classes. Why are we even called easy mode? Because we are envied either because of the insane damage pre-book 7 or the porting skills. These days if you don't have a first age with decent legacies and traited 4/5 bowmaster, don't promise yourself to do any real damage fitting for a nuker. It's a sad fact.


I fully agree with the OP from US forums.

[Scatha the Worm]

I've managed a build that squeezes the life out of a hunter, in terms of damage, without using Strength, and I've managed to support myself for a grand total of 7 minutes on my own, without LM transfer or anything, while focusing entirely on sustained damage. The only power management at my disposal is power pots and IPO to double the standing time.

I've been doing 330 DPS with a lvl 60 3rd age bow, last turtle parse I performed I did the thing 95k damage, and it is as good as it gets with the tools I have at hand. Standing by my side was a runekeeper doing over 400 DPS, and that brings my whole world down. When I parsed in Endurance I did around 290 DPS. That is over a 10% damage drop (near 12% actually). I'll repeat those tests anyway, to be sure I didn't just underperform when in Endurance.

A first age bow would probably deliver much better, but I would also get some serious aggro problems, since my damage build is based on Precision. But I know switching back to Endurance will cost me at least 5% damage... And I'm pretty much back where I started, since 10% is about the increase in DPS you get from a First Age. Switching permanently to an aggro book might actually help, but that means even more power problems. And that is probably what I will do.

[OMWiener]

Yep, right now, i have a lvl59 second age x-bow and I already have aggro problems in the turtle fight. Hence, I need to start on endurance which gimps my damage output off course. When I will start using the First age in my bank (need to lvl and deconstruct my SA first), this will indeed become an even bigger problem...

And that's what I tried to explain before. The devs don't seem to want the hunter to be able to do comparable damage with other classes. Aggro or power stand in its way. A focus burn/precision build is hard to maintain power wise and aggro wise, especially with an FA, which we ironically need to get closer to other classes when it comes to damage output.

But i'm just repeating the OP really...Oh well, this was my first time playing a ranged damage class and it will probably be the last... :P

[Lenin_]

Btw guys, I just have this idea we should start a new thread with known issues/bugs with hunter class. We can just gather them and put together in one thread, and then track how long it will take until turbine fix it. Just for fun, and also to inform the new hunters what they may encounter while playing.

And since I'm too lazy to do it, I kindly ask if anyone can make it :D

[Spyx]

Great post. I have been feeling for hunters ever since book 7. Only in strength stance they can compete with the other dps classes, but then they have power problems.
I mostly play LM, and it's just a waste of my time to power up hunters: I do more damage with that power then they do. I'm parsing around 80k-90k on turtle in dps mode. If it's a situation with more then one target I pull miles ahead.

The weapon dps nerf alone would have been enough, they didn't need to bring down swift bow and quickshot as well.

[Belechael]

Do you know what the really sad part is? Most of us through extensive playing knew about all these things, but we didn't have the numbers, parsecs, videos to prove it.

Now that the proof is unquestionable still nothing will happen...

I'm currently leveling a Lorebreaker and I'm having so much fun, almost as much as when I was playing my hunter.

So many things are wrong about the game in general and the hunter class in particular that only my friends still bring me back to the game, sigh...

[agoracy_]

Great post. I have been feeling for hunters ever since book 7. Only in strength stance they can compete with the other dps classes, but then they have power problems.
I mostly play LM, and it's just a waste of my time to power up hunters: I do more damage with that power then they do. I'm parsing around 80k-90k on turtle in dps mode. If it's a situation with more then one target I pull miles ahead.

The weapon dps nerf alone would have been enough, they didn't need to bring down swift bow and quickshot as well.

I've been watching your videos for some time now, and I envy lore masters for the amazing things they can do... Hunters main role is DPS (either is burst DPS or sustained DPS) but with the nerf we have been kicked from this "damage dealing" pyramid and it's frustrating at times... Now, after I've read B8 release notes, seeing that hunters get no attention makes me sad even more...

I only hope for some better days with the incoming books, maybe some versatility for us... I really don't think we're asking for too much...:(