Gameplay and Builds

[Scatha the Worm]

Foreword - The motivation or "why would I write another wall of text?"

Every now and then, a thread appears about different build strategies, and I have found myself not posting a reply as of late, because I am repeating myself a lot and become lazy about it. I don't think that is a good thing, since many interesting discussions arise when talking builds and gameplay approaches.
This is my attempt at centralizing my views, based on personal experience, forum lore, and some theorical insights. Of course I am not trying to enforce anything, but rather hope that a good discussion can be born here, and I will try to keep updating this thread, even through updates (and nerfs).

The Definitions

Before I start saying anything specific about the different ways a Hunter can design his gameplay and build, I'll begin by stating my own view of the hunter class, since that is the foundation of my analysis.

The Hunter is a ranged damage dealer, capable of sustaining a high damage output, while also being an impressive nuker. As such, its main role in a group is to unleash a full damage throttle from a safe position, while going unnoticed and not straining the rest of the group.
It is a class capable of performing an interesting amount of crowd control, mostly centered about making the solo life easier, but also nicely contributing to a group's mechanics, while not strong enough to be considered by any chance a main crowd control class.
If needed, a Hunter can also decently off-tank ranged enemies, buying some time for proper tanks and healers to handle the situation, or directly eliminating that source of danger.

That is at least the class description I think we fit. Of course we could fit it better (currently), but I'm not trying to discuss nerfs or relative performance with other classes in this thread.

De-trivializing the concept of DPS

For a long time the term of DPS has been used and abused. So here are some more accurate definitions I believe bring more light to the possible discussions.


Burst Damage: This is the one you can deliver quickly and massively, without any further consideration, and usually being exhausted afterwards, be it by cooldowns and/or power.
Sustained Damage: Damage dealt over a significant period of time relying on your own skillset, and maintaining a steady flow throughout that time. The definition of significant period of time is of course very relative, but by current game standards I would dare say it is in the 5 minute realm.
Peak Damage: Tricky definition in that this is usually atached to Burst, but there is a difference: Peak Damage is that of the flashy numbers. As an example, Heart Seeker is a Peak Damage skill, but unless it is used as an opener/combat-state breaker, it is not a Burst skill (or any good at all).


Crowd Control and Combat States

Negative combat states are those which in one way or another, (partially) disable a combatant. These are what generally consist of Crowd Control.

The actual Negative Combat States:


Fear: Fear causes a mob to run away from its source in a chaotic fashion at a reduced speed, although it bears an overall direction. It breaks on damage, except for a short grace period on some cases.
Daze: A Daze causes a mob to stand inactive and unable to do anything in a static position. It breaks on damage, except for a short grace period on some cases.
Stun: A stun is similar to a daze in that it disables and paralizes a mob in place, but it does not break on damage. The typical durations are quite lower than that of Fears and Dazes. After being applied, a combatant will have a Stun Immunity buff which lasts 8 seconds.
Root: A root renders a mob unable to move from position, but nothing else. A typical root has a proc chance varying in % to be broken on damage.


Knockdowns: This would fall into the stun category, but is special in that some of these moves start Fellowship Maneuvers. Hunters have only 1 Knockdown ability, and that is through the Out of Combat-only Tripwire trap, which can proc a Fellowship Maneuver.

The partially disabling combat states:


Disarm: Disarm makes a combatant unable to use any skills dependant on having equipped a main hand melee weapon. It doesn't break on damage, but might typically be cured as wound debuff or with special skills.
Silence: This one causes a combatant to be unable to use any skills falling on the Cry or Song categories. It is not a great definition, but most heal and shout skills are typically affected. It doesn't break on damage, but can be cured as a fear debuff or with special skills.
Snares: These reduce combatant movement, either making it easier to catch up with it, or to run away from it.


LotRo game mechanics consider Negative Combat States to 4 of all the above: Fear, Daze, Root and Stun.

A word about Threat

Threat management and generation has started an impressive number of guides and discussions, so I'm not about to start that here. I will just mention that any respectable DPS class player should know how to handle his own aggro/threat/hate, by whatever means available. While I will briefly mention it at times, I'll assume the reader knows what I am talking about.

Ranged Critical Chance

Any end-game hunter should be sitting around at least 10-11% Ranged Critical Chance without Critical Eye slotted. The importance of Critical Chance for a Hunter lies more in focus generation through Deadly Precision, than in a damage increase. Doing some calculations, a 1% Critical Chance increase translates to about a 0.5% damage increase in the long run. The point is, building too much for it doesn't pay off, specially with the hard-cap at 15%.

[Scatha the Worm]

What is soloing for a Hunter?

Soloing for a Hunter is not all that complicated. A typical solo fight is about Burst damage, picking targets one at a time, and using CC to break groups into manageable chunks or to get a needed pause. The usual limits on the speed of grinding are down times due to power/morale regen between fights, and power pool size. Remember that any CC you wish to apply will probably need some planning, as there are no panic skills in the toolset (Desperate Flight just saves the repair bill).

So, other than nuking power, soloing efficiently is also about carefully planning CC, and using whatever survivability skills, however minor, are available. Let's explore that.

Self-heals

Contrary to SoA times, we now have some options other than choosing Man as race for the 3k heal, or using potions.


Improved Strength of the Earth: Having this one available can make a difference, but the oportunity to use it has to be created through CC. The related legacy of morale regen is quite valuable, meaning a significant "heal" depending on the length of the CC window.
Improved Press Onwards: It is a great way to recover both power and morale. Applying CC to make an opportunity is mandatory, since the skill is easily interrupted.
Ajile Rejoinder HoT: If your playstile is one of keeping enemies at range at all times, you'll probably find this useless, because of the low probability of it triggering. If you are used to end up in a fight toe-to-toe with multiple mobs, you will probably see more use for it. Although the legacy is quite useful, the cap remains too low. Let's hope this sees a boost at some point.


Crowd Control

Controlling the fight is the most important thing for a solo Hunter. We can't run madly into a tight group of enemies and destroy them like a champ would do, or outlast them as guardian would. But we can keep enemies at bay through crowd control.


Cry of the Predator: Granted there aren't that many beasts around in end-game soloing areas, but the great advantage of this skill is the ability to use it on the run.
Bard's Arrow: A great solo CC skill, just make sure you "aim" the mob correctly so you don't chain-pull. Breaking the fear yourself usually is the best you can do.
Rain of Thorns: An AoE root of great value. A typical mistake is to open with it when pulling large groups of enemies, without planning what to do once the root expires. Use your other CC to manage the remaining adds once they are free.
Set Trap: Positioning is key, and planning where and when to make an enemy trip into it can be essential.
Distracting Shot: The mezz is short, and the cooldown is long, but it makes for a great breether at times.
Crafted Traps: These can be VERY powerful, but I'm not a big fan of them. If I wanted to do some crazy stuff I would probably get some, but for the average solo stuff, they aren't needed. The crafting cost and shared cooldowns discourage me from considering these for every day usage. But the option is there.
Snares: While not properly CC, kiting can also buy time to fire proper CC or to release that desperate damaging skill. Stance: Strength Quick Shot and Low Cut are the obvious choices.


Legacies

Since the introduction of the Legendary Item system, there are several enhacements available for the skillset. However, no legacy will make a huge difference in your performance, with the current options. But some of them are at least interesting.


Focus/Indcution Bow Critical Multiplier: These are about nuking power.
Ranged Skill Evade/Block chance: Reducing the chance that your enemies will avoid your ranged attacks is a nice bonus, but the legacies are quite expensive, specially considering the little difference between minimum and maximum rank. I would like to have these on a weapon, but spend points in other stuff, leaving these ones for last.
Needful Haste duration: By improving attack speed and the reduction of the induction of ISB, it is a great burst damage skill. Enhacing its duration is all for the better.
Improved Strength of the Earth morale regen: A cheap legacy that brings the skill to a minor heal status.
Ajile Rejoinder heal chance: A minor heal proc quite cheap as well, can be interesting, but don't rely on it.


The Basic Builds

1º Build: The Bowman-Huntsmaster

These are the Hybrid builds that perform best for usual solo work, in my opinion. Mixing and matching Bowmaster and Huntsman is what typically has worked best for the soloing hunter everywhere: The build is centered around burst capabilities and speed/responsiveness while keeping the CC legendaries for added survivability/engaging options. This hybrid builds are a 3/4 or 4/3 mix, but based around running in Stance: Strength.

The traits

Deadly Precision
Critical Eye
Strong Draw
Fast Draw


Those are two and two, for each line. Focus management and induction reductions. A Hunter's success depends on doing damage, and doing it fast. Reduce your inductions to build focus faster and to have less time vulnerable to setbacks. Get focus faster and spend it slower to do more damage and even save it for melee time.

The optional traits

Hail of Arrows/Arrow Storm: If you like to do multi-pulls these two will help manage that and optimize your AoE damage output. Watch out for your own CC of course.
Swift and True/True Shot: Improved Single Target Damage, simple.
Resolute Aim: No inductions setbacks while using Needful Haste. Useful if you get stuck in melee a lot. But handling focus and CC well should be enough to either buy time to use induction skills, or to avoid them when in melee.


What are the differences between going further into each of the lines?

Well, that is a matter of how you prefer to go about gameplay. Going 4 into Bowmaster provides a further boost to damage in Stance: Strength (10% more than with 3 traits), but the power consumption goes through the roof. Going 4 into Huntsman will provide you with further induction reduction bonuses and open up Improved Press Onwards. Remember that both flavours still keep the ability to use Improved Strength of the Earth, by all means learn to use it.

2º Build: The Precise Hunter

With the revised BPE of mobs (seems like all the NPCs got ninjafied), a lot of us hunters are noticing an increase in Block and Evade events. This, I believe, has brought Precision Builds into the table. However it has a major setback: No Quickshot snare. It is however very workable once you get used to it (or get used to the stance dancing).

The traits

Enduring Precision
Strong Draw
Fast Draw
Critical Eye
Deadly Precision


The optional traits are the same as the previous build flavour.

With those traits arranged, you'll build focus quite fast, and quite reliably. CC skills also become more reliable, but you'll feel the damage reduction (specially if coming from a 4+ Bowmaster setup). You will also burn power quite slower, reducing impressively your down time, and making your power pool more efficient. The comments on Press Onwards still hold, but remember: don't give up your CC legendaries.

3º Build: The Melee Hunter

I haven't really tried out such a build for any significant period of time, but I am willing to at least put some thought into it.

First requirement would be to get some slow hard-hitting melee weapons, such as axes or maces. Both main and off-hand.

The traits

Bow and Blade seems to be a must for a such a build. Rapid Recovery to reduce some cooldowns on melee skills.
Strong Draw and Arrow Storm also seem a good choice, since using focus skills is very efficent at melee.
Resolute Aim also grows a lot in importance.


As you can see, the list is heavy on Huntsman related traits, if only the legendary was worth it...

Related Legacies


Off-hand damage: Seems a must if using Bow and Blade.
Melee Critical Multiplier: It also seems important, specially since Scourging Blow would start to see real use.
Melee Critical Rating/Blindside Critical Rating: These might be interesting, but I wouldn't spend any points in them.

[Scatha the Worm]

Focus Burn philosophy

Focus Burn as a build strategy started a very long time ago, in the days of Thorog and Thaurlach. I believe it is without a doubt, the only way to maximize sustained damage in a grouping scenario.

The basics of Focus Burn rest within a simple fact:

Our most DPS (damage/time) efficient skills are Focus Skills, which also are quite expensive in power: Penetrating Shot, Rain of Arrows and Merciful Shot.

A Focus Burn build makes an attempt to optimize the mix between Focus Skills and Induction Skills to deal the most possible damage over a defined period of time. Ideally, to maximize damage output, you would only use Induction skills as fillers between cooldowns of your best damaging skills, but we are restricted by two limiters: power and focus.

When cooldowns are taken into the equation, a perfect Focus Burn Rotation would look something like this:
ISB PS RoA QS PS QS PS -> repeat
111 149 163 35 149 35 149
+2 -3 -3 +1 -3 +1 -3

Needful Haste, Intent Concentration and Merciful Shot should find their way at either end of the chain and at the aproppiate moments, but the basics are there.

I've tested that rotation, and it takes a little more than 10s to execute with a 2.4 speed bow.

The numbers in bold are focus gain and loss, and it totals for an amount of -8.
The numbers in blue are power costs, and they sum up to a total of 791 power.
So that means in 1 minute we would expend 4746 power and be at -48 focus defict. Ouch.

Although the above table is meants as an illustration of the situation, it is clear we will desperately need two things to make that rotation anything else than a distant dream:

1) A continous flow of focus
2) A continous flow of power

How to Manage Focus

A hunter can build/save focus in several ways, but each one also has its issues:


Using Induction Bow Skills. Spamming induction skills is also reducing damage output. Consider that Quick Shot is barely above auto-attack damage, as an example.
Through ranged skill critical hits, if Deadly Precision is slotted (auxiliary Critical Eye, to increase critical chance). This is quite random.
Using Stance: Precision, if Enduring Precision is slotted. But Precision doesn't manage aggro and power at all.
Firing off Intent Concentration. But this one is on a relatively long cooldown (Albeit traitable with Swift Recovery) when considering a skill rotation.
Using Blind-side. But you have to be in melee range, which is precisely where you shouldn't be when grouping (because of incoming AoE damage and because our melee AAs are usually quite weak).
Strong Draw can reduce the focus cost of Penetrating Shot by 1. Costs a trait slot.
Arrow Storm can reduce the focus cost of Rain of Arrows by 1. Costs a trait slot.


How to Manage Power

Now, regarding Power... There are also several ways to manage power, let's seem them:


Using a Major Tome of the Wind-Rider. Never leave home without it, not even on bio brakes.
Using Bow of the Righteous. Outrageously essential legendary trait. It translates to about 370-450 ICPR depending on weapon speed and skill rotation.
Using Stance: Endurance.
Traiting Graceful Draw, which further enhaces the bonuses from Stance: Endurance.
Traiting Deep Concentration, which gives Intent Concentration a power heal effect.
Use Consumables. Regen food before the fight, power potions through it. Start considering those as must-haves rather than optionals.
Using a slow ranged wepon. The slower the weapon, the least amount of skills you use in a given amount of time, and that means less total power spent.
Using Improved Press Onwards to refill the power pool completely.
Using Improved Strength of the Earth during scripted fight pauses and the like.
Stacking ICPR, directly through items and then through the stat Fate to a minor extent.


Even then, it is virtually impossible to not run at a power deficit. The power numbers reflected above are exagerated, but not by much. In any case, sustained damage is not about being able to indeterminely shoot stuff, but to last reasonably long without straining the group and while still doing your job.

Managing Threat

Managing aggro is actually the most important part of your task as a DPS class. Doing the most damage without generating more hate than the tank is what Hunters are all about. If you pull aggro... your skill rotation, power usage, focus management will matter little.


Stance: Endurance provides a permanent threat reduction.
Quick Shot in Stance: Endurance acts as a detaunt.
Graceful Draw Trait further enhaces the threat reduction bonuses of Stance: Endurance.
Beneath Notice greatly reduces your threat, but only in a small period of time (your perceived threat, contrary to real threat values, which remain). Once that time expires, you're back at full, so it is merely a window you buy for yourself and the tank to actually do something about it.
Using a Tome of the Whisper-Draw reduces threat in a similar way to Stance: Endurance.


Now to sum up the interesting stuff mentioned so far.

Class Traits

Strong Draw
Arrow Storm
Enduring Precision
Swift Recovery
Graceful Draw
Deep Concentration
Critical Eye
Deadly Precision


And we still have to consider damage enhacements to the most used skills

Swift and True Improved Single Target damage
True Shot Improved Single Target damage
Hail of Arrows Improved AoE damage


We also have to chose between a Tome of the Wind-Rider and a Tome of the Whisper-Draw.
There is a commitment to make to a stance, if we are to trait one.
The trait set bonuses are also in there somehow... What a mess.

The mix and match posibilities seems quite broad and beyond reasonable, but in reality, I don't think there are that much posible combinations. The excercise of making your own build is a good one to perform, and surely a good learning experience. But we shouldn't start by trying to rediscover the wheel.

One thing remains true: The heart of all focus burn builds remains within a few key things

Strong Draw: Reducing the focus cost of the damaging shot we spam the most.
Deadly Precision: Making every 5th/6th hit produce aditional focus through criticals.
Bow of the Righteous: Adding a flat out 400 ICPR to our build.
Major Tome of the Wind-Rider: Reducing all our ranged skill power costs by 12%.


With these four things we have addresses focus management and power management as broadly and as efficiently as possible in the lowest amount of possible steps, and taking the lowest amount of possible traits. Anynthing else must evolve from here on.
The only other possible thing to add, is that through itemization, any hunter trying to do a Focus Burn build, should stack as much ICPR as possible. Gems for LIs, bracelets, Off-hand, those are the important ones. Stacking Fate is also an option, but stacking too much is wasting stats because of diminishing returns.

[Scatha the Worm]

It's time to analize some builds...

Pure Focus Burn

I call this the Pure build, because it is completely devoted to Focus building and burning: doing the most single target damage possible. It is the build I stick by most of the time when grouping.

Class Traits

Enduring Precision
Arrow Storm
Strong Draw
Swift Recovery/Fast Draw*
Deadly Precision
Swift and True
True Shot/Hail of Arrows (Critical Eye if there are no captain buffs available)


Legendary Traits

Bow of the Righteous
Press Onwards
Rain of Thorns


This build is designed around maximizing single target damage output (Hail of Arrow is best suited for AoE rich enviroments such as the Halls of Crafting). It throws everything else out the window.

* Swift Recovery is more convenient when the important fights are spanning over more than 5 minutes, or when the pace in fighting is at full throttle with little downtimes, otherwise the cooldown reduction won't play much part in it, specially if you don't have the full watcher set. It is also important to note that Needful Haste deepens even further the power issues of the build.

The ups: The focus generation is fast enough to keep up an almost perfect skill rotation at all times. Stance: Precision means significant reduction of target avoidance ratings, which translates to increased damage and increased effective critical chance. Merciful Shot can be considered into the skill rotation further into the fight. Pres Onwards is available, and very important because of the power heal.

The downs: Poor power and aggro management, most of the tools available are left out with this build, and it is definitely felt after a short while, or when pushing threat too far. Power potions should be thought of as a skill when going with this build, and used preemptively to lengthen your standing time.

True Focus Burn

The true heir of the SoA days I would believe, but one I can't favour in light of the current shortcomings of the hunter in DPS and the characteristics of the current end-game content.

Class Traits

Strong Draw
Swift Recovery
Fast Draw
Deadly Precision
Swift and True/True Shot/Hail of Arrows (Critical Eye if there are no captain buffs available)
Graceful Draw
Deep Concentration


Legendary Traits

Bow of the Righteous
Rain of Thorns
Bard's Arrow


This setup of traits mixes power and focus management elegantly, and following the earlier versions of SoA.

The ups: The power management of this setup is as good as it gets. All the way reduced power costs, power heal options with reduced cooldowns, and increased ICPR from the set 2 bonus of Trapper of Foes. Also includes the best focus management tools from the pool listed above. A really elegant mix, at least in theory.

The downs: This much power management is currently unneeded in the game, where most strained fights are DPS races. It lacks significant damage output potential when compared to other plausible builds. The flow of focus is not really steady, and inductions aren't that fast. The aggro management bonuses of the build also seem to go to waste, unless the tank of choice is very lacking in skill.

Focus Burn 2.0

I would dare say this is the mainstream option for group play at the moment, one that keeps power management, aggro control and damage output at a great balance, and best fit for current end-game content.

Class Traits

Strong Draw
Arrow Storm
Fast Draw
Swift Recovery
Deadly Precision
Swift and True/True Shot/Hail of Arrows (Critical Eye if there are no captain buffs available)
Deep Concentration


Legendary Traits

Bow of the Righteous
Rain of Thorns
Press Onwards


This build is a new mix which tries to do the same as True Focus Burn, but better adapts to current end-game content, having a somewhat better damage potential.

The ups: More focus options are available, while keeping the ability to manage aggro and power. Improved Press Onward can also be considered, and the full induction reduction bonuses are present. This build is not tied to any particular stance through traits, and as such has more flexibility.

The downs: The build doesn't really compromise itself neither to damage nor power management. It does well in both, but great in none.

The Utility Variations

I've found useful at times to do variations on the builds above to keep some CC. Giving up one trait here or there for Combat Traps, or keeping the Fear from time to time (sacrificing Press Onwards probably), to very good results.

A word about legacies

I would dare say that there are no legacies which greatly enhace a Hunter's performance in any way, regarding sustained damage.

Ranged Weapon legacies

The Critical Multiplier legacies can enhace your total damage output by a maximum of about 3%. Very expensive to level up.
The power enhacement legacies are perhaps of the most important ones to actually help with lasting throughout an actual long boss fight. They are also very expensive to level up.
The avoidance reduction legacies aren't bad in design, but to actually spend points in these would seem like a waste of Legendary Points, considering the benefits of upgrading them.
The threat legacies with it's ratings tooltips... I just don't understand the actual effects, and we can always manage aggro some other way (Beneath Notice -> Stance: Endurance and QS). Also, when considering the task of ranged tanking we seem to have been officially given (ie Watcher fight), these are plainly bad to have.
Ranged Evade is nice to have, but I wouldn't spend any points in this one either.


Melee weapon legacies

Needful Haste Duration is one of the best legacies for improving ranged damage.
Beneath Notice cooldown is nice to have, specially if you are living on the aggro-edge.

[Scatha the Worm]

Main Crowd Control Build

Although CC is almost unneeded in all of Moria, there is still hope to be had in the future. At least as an excercise, developing a CC build was fun, but also tiring.

The first thing to bear in mind when making a full CC build, is that DPS is no longer your primary role. It is very important to make your group understand that (you should probably convice yourself first), both that you will be providing main CC, and that you will no longer be observing damage output.

Once that is out of the way, it is time to actually put some thought into the build.

First of all, it is a grouping build. Although it might be interesting to build for CC to do some soloing challenge, this build only serves a real purpose in groups. Grinding speed is definitely a lot faster in any other setup.

Which traits to equip?

Well, we have to think about CC


Combat Traps
Sturdy Traps
Strong Intimidation


These are the 3 obvious CC enhacers we can access through class traits. Equipping Rain of Thorns and Bard's Arrow is a no-brainer. But we have to work our way to the legendary Explosive Arrow if we mean bussiness.

The other ways we can enhace CC is through legacies. Reducing the cooldown and resistance rating for our improved mezz is a must. Getting a decent bow to reduce Distracting Shot cooldown in at least 10 seconds would be a great idea, to be able to chain it with Bard's Arrow indefinitely.

To consider the rest of the traits, there is a very important fact to pay attention to:

CC effectiveness depends on it being reliable.

So I think any serious Trapper of Foes Hunter, should run Stance: Precision, just to maximize the odds of CC actually landing the target.

Out the window goes Graceful Draw then. Aggro won't be a problem either, with such a low damage output, and thus Stealthy Shot becomes useless (I now think to myself, when wasn't it?).

That leaves Deep Concentration, Heart of the Bard and Heightened Senses as possible options.

Heightened Senses has no value inside the average instance, so the 5 Trapper of Foes traits end up being:


Combat Traps - Set Trap becomes usable in combat.
Sturdy Traps - Traps are harder to break on damage.
Strong Intimidation - Fear skill last 5 seconds longer.
Deep Concentration - Adds a power heal to Intent Concentration.
Heart of the Bard - Heart Seeker cooldown is reset when there is a critical hit on Bard's Arrow.


The two other traits, I also center around CC


Resolute Aim - To be able to fire that needed CC, even when getting hit.
Swift Recovery - To reduce the cooldown on our already traited skills: Needful Haste and Intent Concentration.


Gameplay adjustment

As a CC class, we'll be having to pay attention to other things than the bosses' health bars. Working CC through traps, for the group, will defintely need some getting used to. Keep your eye on the ball at all times at first. Learn the timing of Fear and Mezz, to get used to the timing. Remember where you placed traps, and remember your Penetrating Shot is now your emergency root.

We now have the ability to chain-root through combat traps, and to mix mezz and fear to permanently disable another mob (if we have reduced the cooldown on Distracting Shot by at least 10 seconds).
Penetrating Shot also roots for 10s, but there is that problem with auto-attack breaking it shortly afterwars. The solution is simple, turn off auto-attack queue from Combat Options.

Getting some crafted traps will probably be a great idea, for the emergency resist here and there, or for the added punchline. There's nothing like opening every boss fight with a Fellowship Maneuver.

What to do when not having to observe CC?

Well, the damage skill rotation, as you might have thought, is very different.

Penetrating Shot is no longer a rotational skill, remember that. You will manually have to start auto-attacks, and remember to use Bard's Arrow, just for the odd critical hit chance that could reset Heart Seeker. The rotation will feel wrong, slow and at times empty. But you're now a support class. Damage is no longer your bussiness. Focus management is at the exact opposite direction, you should save it for important times.

Once you get used to the awkward change, you should be able maintain two mobs pin-locked, one through roots, the other through mezz-fear. Not that bad! But it really takes some getting used to...

Coming soon, a brief discussion on virtues

[OMWiener]

Lol Scatha, nice writing. Unsure why you keep doing this tbh :P

[agoracy_]

If possible, could we stick this? Great great job Scatha, I was thinking myself of getting all players ideas and put them together in a single thread, but I don't have the time to do it, and I am not an experienced hunter to get the rubbish separate from the goodies!

Again, Kudos!


P.S. If Scatha thinks one thing about something, then even the reality has to change!

[OMWiener]

I was actually trying out a variant of focus burn 2.0. I wouldn't slot fast draw anymore though, with ISB being less effective and interesting to your shot rotation. The only time I use ISB often is when needfull haste is running and fast draw isn't needed anymore. It's quite interesting you didn't put enduring precision in the other focus burn builds.

Anyway i ran with enduring precision instead of fast draw to keep my focus generation up

Class Traits

Strong Draw
Arrow Storm
Enduring precision
Swift Recovery
Deadly Precision
Swift and True
Deep Concentration


I ran Skûmfil and Grand stairs with this setup but realised I didn't really need the extra power from intent concentration. I used it occasionally, but in all honesty i could have used a power pot as well. The reason was that the fights in those instances were never long enough to make me strapped for power in precision (850 icpr here, hopefully with turtle bracelet some more soon).

So in my opinion, if you have good enough ICPR, use the -power book and perhaps some -power legacies, most instances do not warrant the use of power related class traits.

Things are different in raids however and i think for the turtle the Focus burn 2.0 would be the best setup imagineable, but with enduring precision instead of fast draw. The added power from intent concentration and power pots might be enough to stay out of power troubles in precision.

I know you said our main job is damage, Scatha, but the Watcher raid might be the only exception. Our main job there is aggro from the healing tentacles (in most strategies) with damage off course a strong second. Strength stance is needed to reliably keep it over the other classes and as such i would warrant a trait setup away from pure damage and closer to power management. Otherwise you're a real strain on the LM. So starting from the focus burn 2.0 trait setup I'm tempted to get an extra trait from the trapper line just to get the +60 icpr. The problem is that none of the other traits are of any use in the fight. Pffff :P

[Noerenn]

Or just roll a rune-keeper and forget about hunters :p

[Scatha the Worm]

I know you said our main job is damage, Scatha, but the Watcher raid might be the only exception. Our main job there is aggro from the healing tentacles (in most strategies) with damage off course a strong second. Strength stance is needed to reliably keep it over the other classes and as such i would warrant a trait setup away from pure damage and closer to power management. Otherwise you're a real strain on the LM. So starting from the focus burn 2.0 trait setup I'm tempted to get an extra trait from the trapper line just to get the +60 icpr. The problem is that none of the other traits are of any use in the fight. Pffff :P

Yeah I know about watcher design... Who the hell thought out Hunters should be ranged tanks in a raid fight?
Anyway, I run full precision build from Pure Focus Burn there (maybe slot Swift Recovery swapped for Fast Draw sometimes... It is better damage-wise, but almost half the time at -25% attack duration proved deadly for my power balance), never had problems keeping aggro (on my 3rd age lvl 60 bugged ISB animation bow, important to be said). As a plus, it is easier to build focus for mercifuls and help corruption removal after mid-fight, when it really starts to get tricky. Wont matter much with Watcher 3.0 tho...

Although it probably has something to do with the "ZOMG I always have focus" feeling of it, and to have little evade/block/miss, Precision goes a long way for me nowdays. I even reached 330 DPS on the turtle with that setup (again, on my 3rd age lvl 60 bugged ISB animation bow), but aggro is tricky bussiness (specially when some captain decides it is a good idea to throw oathbreakers at the very start)

PS: Whoever said Watcher is 100% Strength was wrong.

I'll get to do some testing and update

PS2: My Watcher/group build stands at 960 ICPR unbuffed. Might have something to with it...

[OMWiener]

Although it can be done, my experience with precision stance during the watcher fight wasn't very good aggro-wise. It might have something to do with our champs having first age weapons and using rend, but i really felt more comfortable with strength stance which is a power hog. And i've grown accustomed to strength stance durin the watcher. It allows for the champs to go all out all the time, making the fight shorter overall.

So ye you'll probably be "fine" (to a certain extent) with power in precision stance, but being in strength most of the time, i can use every bit of power regen i can get my hands on without gimping my build too much.

And ye my watcher build has 960 icpr as well :), but i switch for other instances.

[Scatha the Worm]

Although it can be done, my experience with precision stance during the watcher fight wasn't very good aggro-wise. It might have something to do with our champs having first age weapons and using rend, but i really felt more comfortable with strength stance which is a power hog. And i've grown accustomed to strength stance durin the watcher. It allows for the champs to go all out all the time, making the fight shorter overall.

So ye you'll probably be "fine" (to a certain extent) with power in precision stance, but being in strength most of the time, i can use every bit of power regen i can get my hands on without gimping my build too much.

And ye my watcher build has 960 icpr as well :), but i switch for other instances.

My quarrel with Strength Stance is basically that it is the thing that got us nerfed and that it is VERY power hungry (+30% to solo damage... that really wasn't needed). But I guess it depends on group mechanics. Our champs aren't 1st agers (2nd agers), and have an explicit prohibition of using raging blades with the sole exception of the 12-tentacle spawn, and shouldn't have ferocious strikes slotted, but one of them always keeps rend up. I also always get a 5-10s window of alone time with the tentacle of the moment, while the melee finish off the previous one, and I'm guessing that is the edge needed to build a decent threat advantage. I have actually pulled aggro from the other hunter sitting in Strength ocasionally through a pile-up of criticals, and although it is rare I read that as a sympthom of good enough damage output.

Regarding ICPR, it's mostly a trade-off from morale (loosing dual cuffs is what hurts), and maybe some agility but not much, I think I still reach cap through the massive amount of buffs present in a raid.

I should ask the champs if they are going all out, but that was the last I remember the champs were told to do.

[OMWiener]

Aye, i think we can both agree that it depends on a lot of factors. If you can be comfortable in precision during that fight: all the better :) As long as the squid goes down ;)

Anyway back on-topic:

I was brain-storming over combining traited endurance stance with an effort to keep needfull haste (legacy needed though) up as much as possible. I thought that the speed could counter the increased damage from precision (from focus and less evades/blocks), but as i said from my earlier experiment: it's not really needed with the dps-fest going on in every instance at the moment. I might try it on the turtle to see if there really is a big dps difference. If there isn't, it might be viable for future raids/long fights.

[Scatha the Worm]

Aye, i think we can both agree that it depends on a lot of factors. If you can be comfortable in precision during that fight: all the better :) As long as the squid goes down ;)

Anyway back on-topic:

I was brain-storming over combining traited endurance stance with an effort to keep needfull haste (legacy needed though) up as much as possible. I thought that the speed could counter the increased damage from precision (from focus and less evades/blocks), but as i said from my earlier experiment: it's not really needed with the dps-fest going on in every instance at the moment. I might try it on the turtle to see if there really is a big dps difference. If there isn't, it might be viable for future raids/long fights.

Sadly I did parse an Endurance run on turtle vs traited Precision... You're not going to like it.

went from 286 to 327. Deal breaker. Actually it was since then I perma-ditched Endurance. Except for PUGs of course.

The big difference, I think, is in the extra focus from the pips themselves, and the less avoided hits=more criticals. And more focus=more PS and less QS. The increased crit chance on Quick Shot I tested a while back ago and saw nothing impressive... probably a rating increase.

[OMWiener]

Did you use needfull haste (in combination with needfull haste legacy and swift recovery) every time it was up? If so, then that is a grim image indeed.

[Scatha the Worm]

Did you use needfull haste (in combination with needfull haste legacy and swift recovery) every time it was up? If so, then that is a grim image indeed.

Yep, I burn cds like a bad burglar in ettens... Anyway I found that traiting Swift Recovery isn't a good thing to do for the turtle, since I got to use it only twice anyway:
3 minute cd: I fire it at about 530k on the turtle, and again on Burn Hot time.
2 minute cd: I fire it at the very beggining, and recover it a little after mid fight, but when cd is up again, the loot is probably being rolled.
Perhaps with full watcher gear, but I doubt it as well, since that would require the turtle fight to last at least 5 minutes and something, which is borderline dangerous.

[European]

Great info, great thread and it was about time we got an updated version of this!
I agree with, and use, almost everything here, except one thing. In an ideal world, where there are no ranged mobs, your aggro management AND your tank's tanking is perfect the whole time, I'd use everything you said about everything actually. In reality however, there are ranged mobs that can hit you, and there are always times when the tank either can't aggro all the mobs, are dead, or you get a crit too much, and get into melee. So, for survival's sake, i'd go for the fastest bow (l59 bow) rather than the slowest, and in other ways also focus more on speed on your bow, in order to avoid interruptions.
If you worry about power consumption, you always have the option not to shoot, while with a slow bow, you don't have the option to shoot faster.

[Eikinskialdi]

I'm 6/0/1 atm I came from 2/1/4 and I really like it that I came back to bowmaster cause huntsman did soooo few dmg but nice power managment tho. :P

[Scatha the Worm]

Great info, great thread and it was about time we got an updated version of this!
I agree with, and use, almost everything here, except one thing. In an ideal world, where there are no ranged mobs, your aggro management AND your tank's tanking is perfect the whole time, I'd use everything you said about everything actually. In reality however, there are ranged mobs that can hit you, and there are always times when the tank either can't aggro all the mobs, are dead, or you get a crit too much, and get into melee. So, for survival's sake, i'd go for the fastest bow (l59 bow) rather than the slowest, and in other ways also focus more on speed on your bow, in order to avoid interruptions.
If you worry about power consumption, you always have the option not to shoot, while with a slow bow, you don't have the option to shoot faster.

If we didn't have the huge power problems we do have, I would agree. But 2.2 speed is just insane, specially with the stacking -attack duration buffs you get while grouping. And also, fast bows certainly lack some punch. If it wasn't because xbows are too ugly for me to visually bear with them, I would be using a 2.6 59 xbow.

Also, interruptions don't have to do with your bow speed, but rather with induction durations. If you are actually ranged tanking or meleeing, I also fail to see the advantage. If you are actually feeling too much the induction setbacks, I would rather slot Resolute Aim, and still carry the slowest bow available.

EDIT: Just remembered something. When you get in melee, your autoattack timer depends on your melee weapons, so the average of your main-hand + off-hand are what define your attack speed while toe-to-toe. You might want to check that.

[OMWiener]

Yep, I burn cds like a bad burglar in ettens... Anyway I found that traiting Swift Recovery isn't a good thing to do for the turtle, since I got to use it only twice anyway:
3 minute cd: I fire it at about 530k on the turtle, and again on Burn Hot time.
2 minute cd: I fire it at the very beggining, and recover it a little after mid fight, but when cd is up again, the loot is probably being rolled.
Perhaps with full watcher gear, but I doubt it as well, since that would require the turtle fight to last at least 5 minutes and something, which is borderline dangerous.

Yeh hadn't thought about it like that. But I trait swift recovery in the turtle fight for deep concentration (with full watcher gear). So I lose fast draw and critical eye (we have a captain anyway) for deep concentration and swift recovery which isn't dramatic at all when running precision. But thanks for clearing up endurance for me already :)

[OMWiener]

In reality however, there are ranged mobs that can hit you, and there are always times when the tank either can't aggro all the mobs, are dead, or you get a crit too much, and get into melee. So, for survival's sake, i'd go for the fastest bow (l59 bow) rather than the slowest, and in other ways also focus more on speed on your bow, in order to avoid interruptions.

I'm not really sure i'm following your reasoning tbh. When do we ever get in trouble when facing one or two mobs in a group setting? There's three reasons why i don't really see this as an issue:


I can handle the damage of one or two elites for a short period just fine
I have some CC and some great aggro skills to get rid of my aggro. This allows me to get back in range
I have a group to support me. Sure, the group might be busy for a short time. But it shouldn't be anything I can't handle. If it is, i can shout out or the ministrel/capt can throw me a heal.


And as Scatha pointed out, fast bows don't influence inductions. A slow bow is better damage and power wise. I personally think the only two concepts ingame where a fast bow can show his colours is pvp and trash mobs. A slow bow will only allow you to get a couple of shots in before it's dead, a fast bow will be more efficient imo. So it's up to the hunter in question wether he wants to focus on trash or on the more difficult mobs I guess.

[Telaron70]

Great post Scatha. Well thought through & well written. Surely worth a sticky IMO.

Haven't got much to add at this stage (supposed to be working) & definitely nothing to really take issue with. I certainly think that any Hunter who has arrived at similar conclusions is within a few percentage points of being the best set up they can be (gear permitting). There are ofc little tweaks & variations that may be better situationally & this is a good place to discuss them.

I also like the fact this thread is pretty much all positive - no whining, no hate - just trying to make the best of what we have. Good stuff everyone :)

[European]

I should perhaps have made it more clear, by saying that in those circumstances where ALL other options are exhausted, including the ones you list, I'd rather have a fast bow than a slow one. (And you will see these times, more frequently than you and i wish)
The amount of more damage you do with a slow bow is not much and not valuable enough to me to switch out the faster bow. Personal preferrence I know, but for those encounters where I'm in melee, I'd prefer quickness.
BTW! I'm not sure how he can claim that the slower one is better powerwise if the inductions are the same, unless they actually DO shoot slower and get less shots off. As I said, if that's the case, I'd rather spend some extra power and get the mob dead than having saved some power. And If I need to save power, I can always not shoot! Either the faster bow IS faster, and you get more shots off to kill the mobs quicker, or they're not.

[Scatha the Worm]

I should perhaps have made it more clear, by saying that in those circumstances where ALL other options are exhausted, including the ones you list, I'd rather have a fast bow than a slow one. (And you will see these times, more frequently than you and i wish)
The amount of more damage you do with a slow bow is not much and not valuable enough to me to switch out the faster bow. Personal preferrence I know, but for those encounters where I'm in melee, I'd prefer quickness.
BTW! I'm not sure how he can claim that the slower one is better powerwise if the inductions are the same, unless they actually DO shoot slower and get less shots off. As I said, if that's the case, I'd rather spend some extra power and get the mob dead than having saved some power. And If I need to save power, I can always not shoot! Either the faster bow IS faster, and you get more shots off to kill the mobs quicker, or they're not.

Faster bows do queue induction skills faster, but skill damage is calculated from top-end damage, as well as a minor bonus depending on speed. That bonus damage also depends on speed, and is higher for slower speeds.
So yes, slower bows do pack more overall punch, even tho they fire off some skills slower. On a long fight a faster bow will become a havier power drain on you, while doing less total damage in the same amount of time. It has been tested a lot of times already, tho I don't have the links at hand right now.
This skill mechanics doesn't hold just for hunters, but for everyone. Check out the different forums, EU and US, and you'll find the same results everywhere.

[OMWiener]

I guess i'm lucky in my alliance cuz i don't experience the circumstance you seem to describe often. I can't say i have experienced a loss of control like that in instances much where i have to into melee with all my CC/aggro skills on cooldown and my group struggling.

Concerning speed of bows: As Scatha says a fast bow makes the queue time smaller ie the time between attacks is smaller. However a slow bow has a higher damage range/top end damage. Skill damage is based on this range and on the speed of the bow: a skill says x(% of bow damage) +y: x is dependent on damage range and y is dependent on the speed of the bow. So a slow bow will do more damage per shot. In short a fast bow will get more shots in, but will use more power. A slow bow will get the mob down as fast but using less shots and thus less power (probably not applicable on low morale mobs). So on elites and higher, the slow bow is most efficient. Not shooting on the other hand is not very effecient and you'll fall behind the slow bow even more.

Now don't take the above personal: This is obviously a thread about maximizing potential. So just because a slow bow is theoretically better, doesn't mean everyone should use it. Play however you like, play to have fun. If a fast bow suits you better, great :) But by a few percentages i'm almost certain the slow bow will be better.

[European]

I guess i'm lucky in my alliance cuz i don't experience the circumstance you seem to describe often. I can't say i have experienced a loss of control like that in instances much where i have to into melee with all my CC/aggro skills on cooldown and my group struggling.

Try a pug group, or for instance the 16th hall or the eating hall in Fil Gashan, where sometimes there simply are too many mobs coming at the same time to cc or tank them all. It's not necessarily a loss of controll, it's just the way some fights are designed. (And if rumors come true, more and more fights will be based on overwhelmong the players.)

So a slow bow will do more damage per shot. In short a fast bow will get more shots in, but will use more power.
That's my point. Whenever we get an extra shot in (a little more than every 6th shot if the 2.2 to 2.6 can convert to 0.4 out of 2.6 time units ) the slower bow has to have gained a total of one shot, in damage, more than the faster bow. (And that's not countng the fact that more shots give more crit chances, which gives the slower bow even more, on average, to catch up to)

A slow bow will get the mob down as fast but using less shots and thus less power (probably not applicable on low morale mobs). [b] .
This is where I disagree. It might be more power effective, but the statistics about them doing the same damage in the same time ALL the time simply can't be true. Take a short fight, of two shots: I'll get my second shot going before the other guy. If that's enough damage, the slow bow killed him slower with the same amount of power use. How about a mob with, say 4k morale? At what point, if there is such a point, will the slower bow surpass the faster? I don't know, and neither does anyone else. The statisticts that Scara is referring to is from way before the combat changes in Moria, and there has been no confirmation from either Turbine or Codemasters that the slower bows surpass the faster ones neither before or after Moria. It "feels" more effective to me to use the faster bow, and untill I can get concrete proof that it is not so, I will continue assuming that my bow is, if not better, then at least not worse than a slower bow.

So on elites and higher, the slow bow is most efficient. Agreed, of course. Versus mobs with a gazillion morale it will be hard to keeep up with the extra power usage.

Now don't take the above personal: This is obviously a thread about maximizing potential. So just because a slow bow is theoretically better, doesn't mean everyone should use it. Play however you like, play to have fun. If a fast bow suits you better, great :) But by a few percentages i'm almost certain the slow bow will be better. Don't worry about it. This is just a game after all :) I just like to have a discussion, and especially about "established facts" that are just partially proven, by single players, and not a confirmed fact.

[OMWiener]

I don't really pug i'm sorry :) . So in your case, the fast bow might indeed be more comfortable. But the groups i'm in (alliance groups) allow me to maximize my damage output without having to worry about aggro/melee too much.

This is where I disagree. It might be more power effective, but the statistics about them doing the same damage in the same time ALL the time simply can't be true. Take a short fight, of two shots

That's why i said: "not applicable on low morale mobs". You even quoted that part ;) . Let's face it. In solo, it doesn't matter what you use as the mobs are easy to get down anyway. In groups however elites and higher are the norm and a slow bow would be adviseable if only to save some power.

The statisticts that Scara is referring to is from way before the combat changes in Moria, and there has been no confirmation from either Turbine or Codemasters that the slower bows surpass the faster ones neither before or after Moria.

There are plenty of numbers available from after the combat changes in Moria.

Champion testing slow vs fast weapons after Moria. (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347315)

The slow weapon obviously wins the dps match even against something as trivial as a rampager. This is just one of them.

[European]

Yes. The slow weapon wins, in that example, with those exact weapons, and in that exact combat. Proved to be right by ONE person. See my point? :)

[OMWiener]

Yes. The slow weapon wins, in that example, with those exact weapons, and in that exact combat. Proved to be right by ONE person. See my point? :)

At the end of the day, you can always argue the numbers because even if it was done by 30 persons, there would always be factors you cannot control (yes i'm a statician :) ). There are several threads out there stating the same that i just did. So it's not "proven by one person". It's the general consensus, at least for hunters. If you disagree, there's little I can do about it. But i would always advise a slow bow over a fast bow because the advantages of a slow bow are more clear cut, while those for the fast bow are (imo) situational. In a perfect world a hunter would off course have two bows/x-bows ie slow and fast to switch when necessary. I would indeed prefer to use a fast bow on trash, but if I only have one choice I would pick the slow one especially for power hungry focus burn builds.

[Legotho]

This is where I disagree. It might be more power effective, but the statistics about them doing the same damage in the same time ALL the time simply can't be true. Take a short fight, of two shots: I'll get my second shot going before the other guy. If that's enough damage, the slow bow killed him slower with the same amount of power use. How about a mob with, say 4k morale? At what point, if there is such a point, will the slower bow surpass the faster?

That's what dps is for. If you've got two weapons with the same dps, but one has 2.4 dps and one has 2.0, then in 12 seconds, the slower weapon gets five hits, and the faster one has 6. For the same overall damage.

The windows in which the faster weapon has an advantage are small, and, while predictable, not necessarily convenient:
in this example, between 2.0 and 2.4 seconds, between 4.0 and 4.8 etc (these are the times when it's one entire attack ahead of the slower weapon. The rest of the time it's behind on damage, by the difference in average damage). That works out be exactly 6.0 seconds in total: exactly half of the time. The other half of the time, it's behind in damage generation.

This actually turns out to be true of any two weapons speeds, with the same average dps: for any particular moment when one of them has a higher damage output, there must be a corresponding moment when it has an equivalently lower output, otherwise the averages couldn't remain the same.

What I'm not sure about is how active skills really modify the average dps.

[European]

. But i would always advise a slow bow over a fast bow because the advantages of a slow bow are more clear cut, while those for the fast bow are (imo) situational.
Yes. And as I'd like to be prepared for any situation, I prefer the faster one. I'm not saying that you're wrong about the damage, because I can't prove anything either, but in any situation I'd like to be able to get shots off as quickly as possible, so I use the faster one.

[Silmahad]

Great work Scatha,

but I miss my skillspec :-)

I trait 3 BM / 1 ToF / 3 HM

-Deadly Precision
-Hail of Arrows
-Swift and True / True Shot / Critical Eye

-Deep Concentration

-Strong Draw
-Fast Draw
-Swift Recovery

Legendaries: BA / RoT / BotR

..and I have to say this skillspec is an allrounder. I use this in normal fellowship play, for the Turtle and for the Watcher. It's a compromise of dps (BM line if S:S is possible and this stance is more often possible, many might believe), focus building (Deadly Precision, Strong Draw) and power costs (Deep Concentration, BotR). I even use this for solo play, cos I am too lazy to respec.

With this build I have no considerable focus problems, 480 power per 90 seconds (Set Bonus), reasonable dps and enough threat to tank the tentacles at the Watcher.

In a Turtle run with the socalled "enrage strat" I can uphold S:S with full dps (Needfull Haste, PS and even RoA on cd...and the last one is really expensive, but it is extra dps even on a single target, if you can bear the power costs) for the whole fight, Intent Concentration on cooldown and one to three Celebrant pots.

The synergy between Deep Concentration and Swift Recovery is something I don't want to miss anymore.

I see no use in skilling more than one ToF trait (Deep concentration) in the current game. With Swift Recovery and Deep Concentration you gain power equivalent to 240 icpr (with the 6er Setbonus even more), the + 60 icpr from the 2er bonus of the ToF line is very mediocre in compair to that and in the current game is no need for heavy CC from the ToF line, BA, RoT and our untraited stunshot is even more than enough.

[agoracy_]

Can we get this on the stick board, please? It's very useful for new players and it has a lot of valuable information for a hunter...

[Scatha the Worm]

Great work Scatha,

but I miss my skillspec :-)

I trait 3 BM / 1 ToF / 3 HM

-Deady Precision
-Hail of Arrows
-Swift and True / True Shot / Critical Eye

-Deep Concentration

-Strong Draw
-Fast Draw
-Swift Recovery

Legendaries: BA / RoT / BotR

That is actually another Focus Burn build, just not one I listed ;) The one thing I might have missed, is to present a ranged tanking/Strength grouping build, but I just can't bring myself to consider that as a viable role for a class. TBH the only place I feel useful right now is the Watcher, but it is just sad we've come to this.

[Eikinskialdi]

6 bowmaster and 1 huntsman pure dmg numbers babeh!

[James_Ross]

That's what dps is for. If you've got two weapons with the same dps, but one has 2.4 speed and one has 2.0, then in 12 seconds, the slower weapon gets five hits, and the faster one has 6. For the same overall damage.

Should point out that it probably won't result in the same overall damage unless for those 5/6 shots respectively you are only auto-attacking. Using actual skills would give the slower bow higher damage due to the higher top end dmg range, especially noticeable with a 0.4 speed difference like in your example but less so in practice (think its only 2.2 and 2.4 speed bows at the lvl cap).

[agoracy_]

6 bowmaster and 1 huntsman pure dmg numbers babeh!

This is the best post in this thread, congrats mate! I am very sure I have a lot of things to learn from you:rolleyes:

I wonder if he even bothered to read each skill and trait description...

[OMWiener]

This is the best post in this thread, congrats mate! I am very sure I have a lot of things to learn from you:rolleyes:

I wonder if he even bothered to read each skill and trait description...

Well it's probably a very effective build if he solos/pvps a lot ;)

[agoracy_]

Well it's probably a very effective build if he solos/pvps a lot ;)

Oh, I am very sure he is ;)

[OMWiener]

Oh, I am very sure he is ;)


I'm serious though. I think Scatha will agree that the builds he outlined are mostly about maximising dps in a group environment. I'm not an expert on soloing, but it would be interesting to see what others have done to maximise their play in a solo/pvp environment. I agree that Eikinskialdi didn't give us much information, but perhaps he or some others (that mostly solo/pvp) can provide some extra info about alternative builds for other environments :) .

[zimoo]

Back when I was PVP'ing on my hunter I went for 4 red/3 blue (I can never remember the names). I don't think ANY class should ever go above 5 traits in a certain line, and even 5 should only be done if they want the capstone. It's far more efficient to mix and match IMO.

[Scatha the Worm]

I spent the most thought through this guide into group DPS observations. Solo play I outlined my views, but that is a much broader field. Specially since I consider solo play to be efficient by reducing down-time and optimizing burst damage.

Originally I did intend to present a brief discussion of possible builds for spike damage numbers, but when reviewing I thought I'd rather spend more though elsewhere. I still have it somewhere, and I don't mind updating it eventually, but the priority for me is in including something about virtues first if I am to modify the guide.

However I must point out one thing: I don't consider in any way a Spike Damage build as the best soloing build (because of what I look in a soloing build). It is however more interesting from a PvP perspective, and maybe that is why it deserves some space.

For the time being, my TODO list regarding this guide includes
1º Virtues discussion
2º Ranged Off-Taking
3º PvP Builds

Will check that up eventually, in the presented order.

[Scatha the Worm]

Back when I was PVP'ing on my hunter I went for 4 red/3 blue (I can never remember the names). I don't think ANY class should ever go above 5 traits in a certain line, and even 5 should only be done if they want the capstone. It's far more efficient to mix and match IMO.

It is true that for hunters, hybrid builds are usually the best option, but I don't think that is intended or desired.

There are many classes for which pure builds are perfect in what they are designed for. A Captain's Healing Hands comes to mind, as well as their DPS line. They work like a charm for what they are designed. Loremasters trait sets also work out great, Minstrels also, perhaps a little blurred between Protector of Song and Watcher of Resolve. Even champions see quite some use for their full trait sets including legendaries. Granted there are many other classes that don't come out so good in their capstone legendaries, but I think ours are between the worse.

Cool Burn is a horrible joke of a legendary, rendering your power penalties so high you can't sustain even half the buff time with active skills. Fleet Stance fails horribly at a kiting stance attempt, and the speed bonus would only help increase power problems in a serious fight. Explosive Arrow doesn't allow chain-mezz, which is the standard of main-CC deployement.

The bowmaster line is a horrible mistake. Making Strength stance deploy such high damage resulted in everyone measuring a Hunters damage output by its soloing stance numbers (which were 30% above group numbers). Bowmaster line should be about damage, not about solo burst. But the amount of changes needed to make the trait sets useful would result in a complete overhaul. I've already listed the changes I think would somehow fix the issues without completely changing the class from what developers seemed to want us to be able to do (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5253633&postcount=32), however I don't think it would result that good anyway. It would just be another buggy fix.

The Hunter's trait lines should be:
1º: Burst DPS
2º: Sustained DPS
3º: Main CC (at the cost of DPS)

Our burst DPS line is Bowmaster, but the capstone and legendary do very little for actual gameplay. We have no Sustained DPS line (Huntsman is an alternative solo line if you look at it: kiting, self-heals, melee), and our main CC line underperforms (I wouldn't have a problem with the penalty if it deployed at main CC quality).

I could think out an overhaul of the class, but it would be wasted effort. I will however wish for something: I think we really need some sort of self-buff (like Needful Haste, which is a very well thought out skill if it wasn't for our insane power problems) that improves our critical chance by about 30%, without a ridiculous cooldown and with a respectable duration.

[zimoo]

There are many classes for which pure builds are perfect in what they are designed for. A Captain's Healing Hands comes to mind, as well as their DPS line. They work like a charm for what they are designed. Loremasters trait sets also work out great, Minstrels also, perhaps a little blurred between Protector of Song and Watcher of Resolve. Even champions see quite some use for their full trait sets including legendaries. Granted there are many other classes that don't come out so good in their capstone legendaries, but I think ours are between the worse.

I'm not doubting the usefulness of these trait lines (the LM traitlines for instance, absolutely rock). The point I tried to make was that rather than slotting 6-7 traits from a certain line, I consider it more effective to instead go for a few traits from another line. Using Captains as an example, yes their healing line rocks, but I actually consider a lot of the traits in that line to be poor. Hence on my Captain I'm planning to go for 5 Healing traits (for the capstone), followed by (most likely) 2 yellow traits for the removed cooldown on marks. This would (IMO) be so much more effective than slotting 6-7 traits from the healing line.

I don't think any class has enough of their good traits in 1 line that it's worth slotting more than 5. I've seen way too many Minstrels/Wardens/Lore-masters who think that a 'DPS build' means slotting 7 red traits, rather than going for 5 and a few from the other lines.

[Scatha the Worm]

I'm not doubting the usefulness of these trait lines (the LM traitlines for instance, absolutely rock). The point I tried to make was that rather than slotting 6-7 traits from a certain line, I consider it more effective to instead go for a few traits from another line. Using Captains as an example, yes their healing line rocks, but I actually consider a lot of the traits in that line to be poor. Hence on my Captain I'm planning to go for 5 Healing traits (for the capstone), followed by (most likely) 2 yellow traits for the removed cooldown on marks. This would (IMO) be so much more effective than slotting 6-7 traits from the healing line.

I don't think any class has enough of their good traits in 1 line that it's worth slotting more than 5. I've seen way too many Minstrels/Wardens/Lore-masters who think that a 'DPS build' means slotting 7 red traits, rather than going for 5 and a few from the other lines.

That of course I agree with, I thought you meant just going for 5 traits in a line. Slotting 6/7 is very.... unwise to say the least ;)

[Glagalin]

thx thx thx to you Scatha, great build guide ... thx for sharing your knowledge ... sometimes I feel that gamers want to keep knowledge to themselves in order to be better than others (something you often see in German champion forums); I have been playing hunter from release and 4 other lvl 60 chars, but this is definitly one of the three best memos I have read (the other being minstrel and guardian guides); carry on and word up every so often when updates come round plz ^^

[Llewrend]

3º PvP BuildsCool Burn was pretty good in B6 in Ettenmoors. Rain of Arrows devastate for over 2k, Swift Bow from Camouflage (BH breaks stealth now) over 3k without crits, Penetrating shots devastate over 2k, Merciful Shot was in the 5-6k range if traited.
I made 10-15k per day soloing using 5/0/2 traits. Some ridiculous feats, like killing 3 creeps without losing more than 1k morale when starting from stealth, were not rare but required a few devastated hits.

Now it's just a waste of power. It takes all your power and you won't be killing a rank 4+ creep without an extra stun from someone since they propably will try to get to cover, not that they really need to but still. Ambushes are pretty much out aswell because of the stealth Camouflage nerf.

So, I'd slot 4BM and 3HM or 4/1/2 for combat traps/stealth tracking depending on where I'll go and if I am grouped. Very similar to PvE soloing traits, dmg and -inductions. Specific traits depend on playstyle so... you can write them. ;)

The funny part is Cool Burn trait says "You understand how to keep cool under intense challenge, this trait enables you to push longer while using the Burn Hot skill, as well as use it more often." and it actually increases the power cost by 50%. I really think it should decrease power costs but since noone bothers to use it, it isn't /bugged enough.

[Silmahad]

6 bowmaster and 1 huntsman pure dmg numbers babeh!

Pretty sure he was sarcastic, wasn't he? :-)

At least I get that sarcastic feeling, if I inspect hunters and look at 6 BM traits...and yes it still happens...

I can understand 5 BM traits, if you wanne trait Cool Burn for some Ettenfun, but 6...? why? why not 2 other usefull traits of another line for an additional 2er bonus?

[Eikinskialdi]

Pretty sure he was sarcastic, wasn't he? :-)

At least I get that sarcastic feeling, if I inspect hunters and look at 6 BM traits...and yes it still happens...

I can understand 5 BM traits, if you wanne trait Cool Burn for some Ettenfun, but 6...? why? why not 2 other usefull traits of another line for an additional 2er bonus?

I just like the extra crits from the bowmaster traits. :p Also it fits with my RolePlay as a dwarf

[agoracy_]

I just like the extra crits from the bowmaster traits. :p Also it fits with my RolePlay as a dwarf

You lose a lot of bonuses while using this line, I personally don't enjoy relying only on crits. I like the speed bonus from the huntsman, combined with needsful haste (also, cooldown reduced with 60 seconds, I forgot the trait name atm, it's early in the morning:D)

It's sad that hunters cannot use efficiently a full trait line (or let's say it's not recommended to run around with 80% of your traits being from a single line) just like the other classes can do.

Also... Since when is the role-play influenced by the traits you have equipped? When you have full BM you're the bad dwarf and when you have full HM you're the good dwarf?:D

[Lenin_]

Also... Since when is the role-play influenced by the traits you have equipped? When you have full BM you're the bad dwarf and when you have full HM you're the good dwarf?:D

I think dwarfs are too rusty to shoot fast, so they hit less frequently but with BIG hits :D

[Eikinskialdi]

You lose a lot of bonuses while using this line, I personally don't enjoy relying only on crits. I like the speed bonus from the huntsman, combined with needsful haste (also, cooldown reduced with 60 seconds, I forgot the trait name atm, it's early in the morning:D)

It's sad that hunters cannot use efficiently a full trait line (or let's say it's not recommended to run around with 80% of your traits being from a single line) just like the other classes can do.

Also... Since when is the role-play influenced by the traits you have equipped? When you have full BM you're the bad dwarf and when you have full HM you're the good dwarf?:D

Passive Race trait says stocky. My dwarf has max muscle so he can only pack a punch at a certain speed. :D

Screenie! :D

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6694/screenshot00083r.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/screenshot00083r.jpg/)

[nightbyday]

Eikinskialdi is a rail way worker? or are you hunting 'sleepers'? either way you look right on track. :D

[agoracy_]

We'd rather go back on topic, I really want to see this thread on the stick board because it contains valuable information regarding hunter builds and trait set up according to situations...

Now that we all have seen the "superb" dwarf this little guy has, we'd better get back on track...

Question: What jeweleries would you like (or you have already) on your hunter? what is the best item to have on your hunter (regarding pocket items/jewels)?

[Eikinskialdi]

Now that we all have seen the "superb" dwarf this little guy has, we'd better get back on track...

Question: What jeweleries would you like (or you have already) on your hunter? what is the best item to have on your hunter (regarding pocket items/jewels)?

Offtipic: You can leave away the two '' :P

Ontopic: My favorite build would be

x2 diamond studs for ears for the power/fate
x2 insiduous cuffs for brace for reflect and high agility
x2 amber rings for the big morale boost
x1 ancient signet pendant for necklace just simple good stats
x1 memorial plague for pocket

All tho from HM farm

Other question how can u link those items with a window?

[zimoo]

Diamond Studs give morale, not power. If you're after power from earrings then Golulos/Golden Earring would be better choices.

Insidious Cuffs...the damage reflect on them is so meh. On our last turtle run I'd say I had aggro about 1/6 of the time on my Champion (with 2 cuffs), and I reflected a whopping...200 damage. Go for Cuffs for the nice morale/agility boost, but the damage reflect is just pathetic :)

Amber Rings I'd agree with, but Carved Sapphire Rings (from Nardur in GS) are a reasonable alternative, which are also much easier to get.

Necklace I'd agree with, unless my LM is also with you on the Forges run :p

For pocket I'd personally go for either Lenglammel's Feather from book 6, or one of the pocket items from Skumfil (teal version on the right side, purple version with slightly lower stats on the left side). Memorial Plaque is way too rare, especially given how boring and repetitive FG HM is after a while. If I was to create a new Champion this would probably be the only one of my current items I wouldn't farm for again, it'll drive you insane :p

[Eikinskialdi]

I dont farm for any of em I just use the standard sublime teal dawn jewlerry atm. Since I don't want to farm every instance 30 times like a kinmate.

[Scatha the Worm]

Ok... items is tricky, but I'll give my opinion:

Solo:
Earrings: 1x Run-baug (vile maw) 1x Diamond Flaked Earring (2nd boss forges)

Very nice high morale and ranged critical, with even some power

Bracelets: 2x Insidious Cuff (GS hard mode last boss)

Very nice agi+morale

Necklace: Ancient Signet Pendant (Forges hard mode last boss)

This one actually makes all round stats suitable for anything, but I haven't looked much really

Pocket: Ornate Copper Sphere (Skumfil right side, last boss)

Nice stats, bonuses and power

Rings: 2xamber ring (Forgotten Treasury) or 1x amber ring + 1xgruesome fingerband (Forges last boss HM) or 1xamber ring + 1xsublime dawn-rose ring

2xamber is best stats overall definitely, but given it's drop rate... a rare thing. The gruesome fingerband has nice all around stats but a lot more mixed, and the crafted gives a very nice boost to power if you already are reacing high morale (5.2k+).

Grouping:
Earrings: 2xdiamond stud (Grand Stair hard mode last boss)

Fate (hence ICPR) and morale

Bracelets: 2xturtle-shell bracelet (recipe drop from turtle)

Best regen bracelets around, looking forward to critted ones

Necklace:same as above

Pocket: Treasury Stone (vile maw), alt. Lenglammel's Feather (book reward) or Painted Vane for ranged taking (grand stair hm last boss)

The stone has the best all around stats for the grouping hunter, while the book reward seems like a non-critted version of that. The vane is for ranged heavy duty taking.

Rings: same as above

As an additional, I will mention the best cloak IMO is the Cloak of Shadows and Flame of 2.6.8, but there might be some avoidance/morale cloak out there best suitted for solo play.
For the off-hand, I now use Raskwith's Blade for solo, and rib-breaker for grouping. Book 8 will definitely change this tho, as I've seen a great sword from one of the new 3-man that I will probably be farming to replace rib-breaker, and I will also get one of the new crafted stuff for solo play.

[Scatha the Worm]

bump.... I wonder if any dev/cm representative reads this forum?

[OMWiener]

Is that a question? :P

[Scatha the Worm]

more like an impossible wish, such as "I want to be the King of the Solar System"

[agoracy_]

I even posted a comment on Faya's profile. Indeed, hunters get a lot of love from turbine. It's a common thing now days. Maybe We should send a pizza (or maybe some more) + couple of pan cakes to draw her or any other moderator attention. Are you even checking the comments you get on your profile Faya, or should we start sending mails to a higher person in CM for getting this bloody thread on the stick board?

Edit: We don't get much love from turbine, but I was expecting Codemasters to show some respect to the hunter community by adding this serious class guide to the stick board. Guess we were asking too much, or maybe Faya is too busy in cleaning up the porn spam threads full of viruses we all have to see almost every day now. GJ CM, keep it up. Why don't you just remove the whole hunter section, maybe this will encourage new players in playing other class, hunters have nothing interesting to say anyway.

[Falorond]

My biggest disapointment in the Hunter's trait lines is for sure the Trapper of Foes -25% output damage, is pure robery =(

[agoracy_]

Woot! Finally, sent a mail to Faya, this thread is where it should have been from the very beginning :)

[Lenin_]

Gratz for sticky :)

[Telaron70]

more like an impossible wish, such as "I want to be the King of the Solar System"

oooh...gratz on a well deserved sticky Your Majesty ;)

[zimoo]

Nice to see this stickied, very useful thread and I'm thinking of picking up my Hunter again with the new crafted items (the thought of farming GS/FG/Forges for days really put me off gearing up my alts).

[Scatha the Worm]

It just took a couple of months and some PM's, now I might actually come to complete it xD

[Lenin_]

Hey guys anyone has been doing parses recently?
Last night I tried 3/1/3 trait setup, was in endurance like 95% of the fight and did 333 DPS. Still I think it is lower then it should be.
Next time I will try 2/1/4 and stay in precision, to see how it will go.

[Scatha the Worm]

Last parse I did was precision mostly (Str+BH towards end), was doing about 360 DPS. That was some time ago. No shield brother, if I do get shield brother I inevitably start tanking=low dps.

Have to try with a warden tanking... That might actually work for larger numbers.

[Noerenn]

Think i got 378 DPS last time i done the Tortoise on my hnt. Will look if imageshack still got the screens since i reinstalled my comp :p

Edit: Found them (373 DPS btw)
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6695/pinaleaturtlefireoilranw.png
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8744/pinaleaturtlefireoilran.png

[Lenin_]

After a long time I decided to parse todays turtle run, regular group with 2 captains and 1 burg, etc.
So when I checked Cstats there was a nice number
http://i36.tinypic.com/11aakwm.jpg
For all you endurance stance haters :D - I was in endurance from start to the end. Pulled aggro once for 1 second at the start, never had to use power pot or ask for power from LM. Didn't use burn hot. Probably I could do better, but really I was not trying much for max dps, just wanted to see how my dps increased as the time goes. One thing I had was shield-brother from captain.

[Noerenn]

For all you endurance stance haters :D - I was in endurance from start to the end. Pulled aggro once for 1 second at the start, never had to use power pot or ask for power from LM. Didn't use burn hot. Probably I could do better, but really I was not trying much for max dps, just wanted to see how my dps increased as the time goes. One thing I had was shield-brother from captain.
Shield Brother increases DPS a lot so i don't think it's really good to test your true DPS. You sure could do better if you never needed power :p Use strenght/precision sometimes and use power pots when needed and i think you can do even a lot more damage. :)