What age is your legendary?

[Marqlar]

I hear a lot of moaning from hunters about loss of DPS, and how RKs outDPS them. But to be fair a 1st age weapon (nomatter the legacies) for a hunter radically improves your DPS. Now with bk8 1st ages finally will become much easier to get (and a bow none the least), so to gage the situation I would like your input.

What is your primary DPS weapon currently? If it's not 1st age yet, in effect you haven't reached your full DPS potential yet, and will have a lot better DPS once you get it.

This is not to belittle the hunter nerf, which I really know hit you guys hard. I just don't think it's fair to crown the RK as the king of DPS before a 1st age hunter get's his try as well...

[Scatha the Worm]

I'm the owner of a Third Ager 60 bow (hate xbows). The thing is... RKs, as a hybid class, and according to developer description upon class release with MoM, should lag behind Hunter in ST DPS, but have better AoE DPS. I'm OK with that, but currently, 3rd Ager RK >> 3rd Ager Hunter. There's your problem. However you look at it, Weapon color shouldn't make that large a difference, and it does for us. However I don't think a First Age Bow is going to provide a boost of anywhere more than 10% (being generous), so that edge Hunters should have because they are single role group classes, is still missing.

[Scappydog]

You can't ignore the legacies on any age bow or crossbow. Yes a 1st Age will increase our dps, but our full potential comes with a 1st Age ranged weapon of the right speed and the appropriate legacies. You could even argue that having a 1st Age melee weapon with the right legacies would help dps too.

How many months ( if ever ) do you think it will take most Hunter's to acquire that?

[Lenin_]

So you are saying that in order to properly fulfill our role we should be using 1st age bow/crossbows?

[Marqlar]

Focus and induction crit legacies DPS increases are SO small in comparison to a higher age weapon for hunters. IIRC the step up from a 2nd to a 1st ager is about 10%. And even if it's smaller the step up from a 3rd age is SO big that it easily outweighs the puny +crit legacies on the weapon.

Now the power is another matter. That's obviously a factor. The fact is though, that with book8 it's going to be A LOT easier for everyone to get 1st agers of the right type. And especially for hunters this is VERY important. Since none of the legacies can compete with the general higher DPS of the 1st ager, we are considering to give hunters first priority on rolls in our kin atm.

Compare with a champions weapon. If the difference between a 2nd age and a 1st age is ~10% then it's effectively outweighed by the +fervour and +AOE damage legacies. So in that case it wouldn't "do much" to equip a champ with a decent 2nd or even 3rd ager with a 1st ager without those legacies. Where as the difference with hunters are enormous, since they have no "comparable" legacies.

So we are considering kitting out our hunter's first (so they at least have a 1st ager) and then dropping the coins free for all (since now it's an equal part in the lottery about getting the right legacies as well). This imbalance can't really surprise you? Would you rather have a 3rd ager with +2% damage from crits of a 1st ager with +15% damage overall?

And yes, I believe a hunter should have a 1st ager before you compare his sustained DPS with a RK. Excactly because hunters because of these facts should be the first to get to the first age coins, that's what matters to me. In comparison a RK wouldn't benefit AT ALL from a 1st ager (except for maybe a random nicety from the 1st age bonus stats).

[Gazmataz]

Mine is a Second Age Crossbow with 44.9Dps on it. Normally i would touch a Crossbow with a barge pole but this one fell into my lap and now I love it.

[Llewrend]

I use a lvl 60 3rd age bow. I really dislike the 2nd age 2.2 speed bows, and absolutely refuse to use a crossbow even if the lvl 59 SA 2.6 speed x-bow would arguably have the "best" DPS.

However, with book 8 coming and me being in a pretty big raiding kin with a big(ish) stash of DKP points at my disposal, I find myself indecisive on what I'll barter my coins for. Should I take the lvl 60 2.4 speed bow or the slower lvl 59 2.5 speed? What about the lvl 59 2.6 speed x-bow? That should pretty much give the "best" damage. Also the lvl 60's cost two coins more than lvl 59's, so I would inevitably end up using more coins, and time, to get good legacies on my lvl 60 weapon. Decisions, decisions... :)

Level: Weapon Speed (Min-Max Dmg) (DPS) ... [(1/3)xMax Dmg + (2/3)xAve Dmg]
ie. comparative dmg per hit

Post-Book 7

First Age:
Bow -
59: 2.5 (97-152) (49.8) ..... [131.7]
60: 2.4 (95-150) (51.0) ..... [133.7]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (110-149) (49.8) ... [136.0]
60: 2.4 (103-142) (51.0) ... [129.0] ESTIMATED

Second Age:
Bow -
59: 2.2 (79-125) (46.3) ..... [109.7]
60: 2.2 (81-128) (47.5) ..... [112.3]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (102-139) (46.3) ... [126.7]
60: 2.3 (92-126) (47.5) ..... [114.7]

Third Age:
Bow -
59: 2.2 (75-118) (43.8) ..... [103.7]
60: 2.4 (84-132) (44.9) ..... [116.0]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (96-131) (43.8) ..... [119.3]
60: 2.4 (91-124) (44.9) ..... [113.0]

Work by Evendale (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=240210)

What would you choose?

[makarios68]

Several people have mentioned their wariness/dislike for x-bows. Was wondering if you´d give your reasons for this?

[omissis]

I use a lvl 60 3rd age bow. I really dislike the 2nd age 2.2 speed bows, and absolutely refuse to use a crossbow even if the lvl 59 SA 2.6 speed x-bow would arguably have the "best" DPS.


It looks like Esopo's little story of the wolf and the grapes.



Anyway for each "technical" post pro I can find another con:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=257588

[Scatha the Worm]

Several people have mentioned their wariness/dislike for x-bows. Was wondering if you´d give your reasons for this?

They look terribly awful.
They are mechanic weaponized devices. It is probably more accurate to compare a Xbow to a rifle than to a bow, in its actual usage.
I think they are probably quite lorebreaking (though not completely sure, but I'm willing to place a bet there).
It just feels wrong. Like the elven host arriving at helms deep, or the oathbreakers charging the pelennor fields. Or the RKs sith abilities.


I will probably pick a 2.5 bow. It's not the best DPS from that list, but 2.4 is already a heavy power drain on me, anything helps. And Xbows, at least for me, are out of the question. One of the few great things remaining in this game is its aesthethics, and I won't ruin that by carrying around that horrible thing.

BURN ALL CROSSBOWS!

Oh Lord... How badly I miss my 2.8 speed Gwathryn's Longbow and Celegdur...

[nightbyday]

its a sad reality but yes dps will go up on professions who use a weapon for base dps as the age level increases, non weapon base classes get other advantages normally revolving around power saving. I was bit shocked to relise percived threat on 2nd age minstrel class items actually means diddly reduced healing threat is on a 1st age :p

Bow/xbow damage is more about your play style (shot rotations and legacy choice), crit wise no doubt a crossbow will produce bigger crits becauseof top end damage and auto shots would be better damage due to the larger 'average' damage spectrum.

One thing a lot of people forget is you have to hit the target to hurt it so thats where cross bows technically have an advantage with the -5% block inherent on them, also legacies come into play here if you choose evade and block reduction. It's all 'swings and round abouts' so to speak and unfortunatly Hunters can't take advantage of all the 'rides'.

Oddly i had a level 60 second age bow and accidently deconstructed it (lol yes noob), in a panic i bought a level 59 2nd age xbow for the princely sum of 17g unidentified. The bow was all crit to this and crit to that the cross bow ended up with induction crit, power save, threat reduction, block and evade modifer with bleed % :( (range evade mitgation modifer would have been sweet). I don't see my self disposing of the weapon for some time it is a 'perfect' fellowship weapon. Concentrating on the inductions for rotaions means i always have barbed arrow on a mob with plently of focus for 'grabbing aggro', needful haste etc. I now love crossbows. Of course i will take either a bow or xbow if it drops but when we go to 1st barter tokens i just know i am going to be sadly drawn to a level 59 cross bow :p

Basically the dps difference or rather damage output isn't huge between xbow a bow so there is no harm in personal preferance, it is the lagacy choice which will make the difference. So roll on poor hunters a dream of you 1st age weapons, i would hate to be a 3rd age level 59 bow/xbow user now at 60 :D

[OMWiener]

Don't forget the bugged swift bow animation with a bow ;)

I don't like x-bows because of the looks either (i'm running around with a kite again), but if i were to choose, i would indeed go for the 2.5 bow or 2.6 x-bow. Sure the 2.4 bow might pack a little more dps (as per link shown above), but the difference is small and you'll save a lot of power with a slower weapon.

[Eikinskialdi]

lvl 60 third age bow I can raise money to buy a 2ndager if I want but I rather get the first age barter coins till I even spend slight attention to my weapon.

[agoracy_]

I use a second age Xbow, but I don't really enjoy it... Just like scatha said in his post above, I don't find Xbows interesting (actually, lore breaking), I feel like an orc when I am using them... Still looking for a decent weapon, so far, this is the best I got (I don't enjoy buying weapons, so I am still waiting for a decent drop in one of my journeys)

[Silmahad]

I have a lvl 60 FA Bow for 2 weeks now and I have to say...now I feel like a dps class again.

I was in a Filikul raid with my minstrel, cos a minstrel was needed, although I checked in with my hunter on the raid scedule, so I logged on my minstrel.

As the golden thing dropped I was about throwing my PC with monitor out of the window
but the kinship member who won it gave it to my hunter.

I identified it and saw the worst possible crap ever as legacies on it.

-+ % heartseeker damage
-- x resistance to irritating shot
-less threat für QS in endurance (who the hell needs that??)

Now, at lvl 40, I have at least:

-+ % crit multi:focus R6
--% power costs for induction R4

so all in all the thingy is usable and the dps increase was well noticable.

[nightbyday]

I have a lvl 60 FA Bow for 2 weeks now and I have to say...now I feel like a dps class again.

I was in a Filikul raid with my minstrel, cos a minstrel was needed, although I checked in with my hunter on the raid scedule, so I logged on my minstrel.

As the golden thing dropped I was about throwing my PC with monitor out of the window
but the kinship member who won it gave it to my hunter.

I identified it and saw the worst possible crap ever as legacies on it.

-+ % heartseeker damage
-- x resistence to penetrating shot
-less threat für QS in endurance (who the hell needs that??)

Now, at lvl 40, I have at least:

-+ % crit multi:focus R6
--% power costs for induction R4

so all in all the thingy is usable and the dps increase was well noticable.

And that is way the legacy lottry is so nasty to hunters.
there are 6 horrid 'usless' legacies, 5 'don't really' want legacies and in fact only 4 'please please' can i have legacies. :D

But thats nature of the lottery and affects many classes, very annoying.

[Borondir]

I am one of the extremely lucky people to have won a 1st age bow, and also pleased with the legacies (induction crit tier 6, still hoping for the other crit legacy when my bow hits 50). And I am very, very happy I have it, because with the 3rd age bow post book 7 I felt like shooting with a water pistol. A bit strange that to be able to compete with a runekeeper you absolutely need a 1st ager. Definitely hope the first agers will be easier to get for hunters, I know that to many it's become a bit frustrating after book 7.

[Llewrend]

It looks like Esopo's little story of the wolf and the grapes.
Anyway for each "technical" post pro I can find another con:
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=257588I'm not sure what you mean. The Fox and the Grapes teaches "It is easy to despise what you cannot get."
I have almost 200g. In the past 7 months, I could have bought whatever weapon I wanted but after testing 2.2 speed bows in SoA (power-eaters, small skill dmg bonus) and crossbows in MoM (ugly, un-huntery, no racial bonus), I decided to keep my 3rd age bow and keep running Vile Maw in hopes of a 1st age bow. No luck after 15 kills though. :)

Thank you for the link. Although it is not actual testing, just math, and doesn't take power usage into account. I think it assures my choice of a lvl 60 1st age bow in Book 8. More parsings to do, so little time.
One of the few great things remaining in this game is its aesthethics, and I won't ruin that by carrying around that horrible thing.Absolutely agree.

[Eikinskialdi]

Hope the first age barter system will change the horrid of getting the wrong speed bow/xbow.

[agoracy_]

Question:
First age barter system, could anyone enlighten me with a link or something? I've read the release notes, but so far i wasn't lucky, maybe I am missing something? Could you please be more explicit about it?

[Llewrend]

Question:
First age barter system, could anyone enlighten me with a link or something? I've read the release notes, but so far i wasn't lucky, maybe I am missing something? Could you please be more explicit about it?First Ages are now dropped via a barter system.Each raid now drops barter tokens that can be saved up to use to trade for the First Age item of your choice. Vile Maw, Strange Happenings, and Dar Narbugud will all drop multiple tokens. Go visit the barter traders at the Hythe docks to see all the possibilities.

Level 59 First Age's will cost 4 tokens
Level 60 First Age's will cost 6 tokens

Currently First Age Legendary items are Bind on Acquire on Bullroarer. This change will be reverted and will not go live when Book 8 ships.

Book 8 patch notes. (http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Volume_2_Book_8_Bullroarer_Official# First_Age_Legendary_Items)

[Silmahad]

BURN ALL CROSSBOWS!

Oh Lord... How badly I miss my 2.8 speed Gwathryn's Longbow and Celegdur...

I so agree. I am playing an elf hunter and that leaves the only possible weapon choices at Bow, Sword, Spear and Dagger. There won't ever find a crossbow, an axe or a blunt weapon it's way into my hands, end of (maybe as secondary melee, but it has to be overwhelming...Cururist is so elven style).

[agoracy_]

Thank you Llewrend!

I so agree. I am playing an elf hunter and that leaves the only possible weapon choices at Bow, Sword, Spear and Dagger. There won't ever find a crossbow, an axe or a blunt weapon it's way into my hands, end of (maybe as secondary melee, but it has to be overwhelming...Cururist is so elven style).

A bit off topic now, indeed, I dislike crossbows as well... Maybe dwarf hunters should be more appropriate to use them, but weapons differences according to race will be too much to ask for.

As for cururist, I got one last night, was really lucky in a GS run, insidious cuff, cururist and diamond stud, all in a single run. Guess someone up there gave me a loot of luck since I rolled 90, 94 and 95 for them :D

Is it possible to dual wield with 2 cururists? (I am asking that because I have 2 , but cannot use them because I am only 57 now ). If so, I'd gladly give up using my second age spear (I only use it for the +needsful haste leg) and equip two of these beautiful swords...

[OMWiener]

Is it possible to dual wield with 2 cururists? (I am asking that because I have 2 , but cannot use them because I am only 57 now ). If so, I'd gladly give up using my second age spear (I only use it for the +needsful haste leg) and equip two of these beautiful swords...

I wouldn't give up a leg sword if you haev good settings for it. No crafted or drop can make up for +agi, +morale, +power, +crit rating, +PIC (imo) on the runes

[nightbyday]

I wouldn't give up a leg sword if you haev good settings for it. No crafted or drop can make up for +agi, +morale, +power, +crit rating, +PIC (imo)

Agreed... and i only use curuist for fellowships.

[agoracy_]

I wouldn't give up a leg sword if you haev good settings for it. No crafted or drop can make up for +agi, +morale, +power, +crit rating, +PIC (imo) on the runes

I don't have yet a good sword (using a spear atm, I wouldn't bother grinding and leveling a weapon ti'll I will be 60). About the spear, I am quite disappointed, 1.8 speed, heh), . Also, I am still looking for a decent bow, the one I have atm (xbow tbh :bw:) have some good legacies on it, but 39.2 DPS (maxed)... is a bit low for my tastes..

[Scatha the Worm]

Just going by settings a Legendary weapon beats anything else by a long leap:

Ranged Critical Rating
Power Regen
Morale&Power
Mitigations
Stats

I sincerely don't understand the ppl who don't use legendary items... I don't know about other classes, but particularly for the hunter class the melee weapons are little more than stat slots.

[Eorthor]

Is it possible to dual wield with 2 cururists? (I am asking that because I have 2 , but cannot use them because I am only 57 now ). If so, I'd gladly give up using my second age spear (I only use it for the +needsful haste leg) and equip two of these beautiful swords...

No you can't dual wield Curuist it's a Unique Item.

[Marqlar]

I use a lvl 60 3rd age bow. I really dislike the 2nd age 2.2 speed bows, and absolutely refuse to use a crossbow even if the lvl 59 SA 2.6 speed x-bow would arguably have the "best" DPS.

However, with book 8 coming and me being in a pretty big raiding kin with a big(ish) stash of DKP points at my disposal, I find myself indecisive on what I'll barter my coins for. Should I take the lvl 60 2.4 speed bow or the slower lvl 59 2.5 speed? What about the lvl 59 2.6 speed x-bow? That should pretty much give the "best" damage. Also the lvl 60's cost two coins more than lvl 59's, so I would inevitably end up using more coins, and time, to get good legacies on my lvl 60 weapon. Decisions, decisions... :)

Level: Weapon Speed (Min-Max Dmg) (DPS) ... [(1/3)xMax Dmg + (2/3)xAve Dmg]
ie. comparative dmg per hit

Post-Book 7

First Age:
Bow -
59: 2.5 (97-152) (49.8) ..... [131.7]
60: 2.4 (95-150) (51.0) ..... [133.7]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (110-149) (49.8) ... [136.0]
60: 2.4 (103-142) (51.0) ... [129.0] ESTIMATED

Second Age:
Bow -
59: 2.2 (79-125) (46.3) ..... [109.7]
60: 2.2 (81-128) (47.5) ..... [112.3]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (102-139) (46.3) ... [126.7]
60: 2.3 (92-126) (47.5) ..... [114.7]

Third Age:
Bow -
59: 2.2 (75-118) (43.8) ..... [103.7]
60: 2.4 (84-132) (44.9) ..... [116.0]
Crossbow -
59: 2.6 (96-131) (43.8) ..... [119.3]
60: 2.4 (91-124) (44.9) ..... [113.0]

Work by Evendale (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=240210)

What would you choose?

Thanks a lot for this. As I thought, the damage on the lvl 59 bow is higher than on the lvl 60. For me that means that the lvl 59 is better. As I see it inductions stay the same, so it's only focus skills and AA that gets affected by the higher speed. And this is totally disregarding the difference on crits.

On champs it has been showed that a slower weapon outDPSes a faster one. Not only because of less power consumption etc, but simply because of the mechanics of this game. Animations, inductions and the "global" cooldown on skills all stay the same nomatter the weapon speed. So it does make sense.

The thing is, I find it a bit selfish for hunters to get a lvl 60 1st age when we give them priority in kin. Kitting out our kin will be a lot faster if we can spend only 4 coins instead of 6. I would love a DPS test to show to the kin to convince them tho.

[Eikinskialdi]

Hah cant wait to have first age 59 bow and first age melee wep.

[Beaulorien]

I have a FA bow and filikul (both dropped in same raid). The legacies on both are awful.. talk about good luck and bad luck lol. But I have a question. The bow has focus bow and induction bow threat reduction.. what is the difference between the 2? how much do each actually reduce threat (by rating) and would maxing the threat reduction enable me to go strength stance without pulling too much aggro?

Forgive the noobish questions please but I'm very new to the game (this is my 1st char) and I got the drops on maybe my 2nd turtle raid when I'd just turned lvl 60.

[Eikinskialdi]

A bit off topic now, indeed, I dislike crossbows as well... Maybe dwarf hunters should be more appropriate to use them, but weapons differences according to race will be too much to ask for.

Lol no way I want a crossbow forced on my dwarf hunter. crossbows are ugly and lore breaking

[nightbyday]

I have a FA bow and filikul (both dropped in same raid). The legacies on both are awful.. talk about good luck and bad luck lol. But I have a question. The bow has focus bow and induction bow threat reduction.. what is the difference between the 2? how much do each actually reduce threat (by rating) and would maxing the threat reduction enable me to go strength stance without pulling too much aggro?

Forgive the noobish questions please but I'm very new to the game (this is my 1st char) and I got the drops on maybe my 2nd turtle raid when I'd just turned lvl 60.

Focus threat reduction means you shots from focused based skills have their threat reduced and like wise induction. This does not mean auto shots threat is reduced.

Not a noob question because i can't tell you by how much your threat is reduced compared to say endurance stance. There have been lots of debates on it with the conclusion is migh be 5% reduction per level but i think this is still just a guess.

Does it help? i feel it does, i make heavy use of induction shots and +4 threat reduction seems to compansate for this.

#shrug#

[Llewrend]

What would you choose?Sorry to start a new thread. But the other one got pretty heavily derailed by bickering and bitterness. And I'd like to draw attention to this all-new video that documents the "Improved Swift Bow (ISB) Execution Animation Duration" bug via video and measurements/data.

Let's please just discuss the video, the numbers it provides, and perhaps politely express our desire for a fix. Angry diatribes and/or attacks directed at the very people from whom we're trying to obtain help won't accomplish anything. "More flies with honey. . ." and all that. http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I'm not saying people don't have the right to be angry. But being angry doesn't give us the right to treat others poorly. So, please, if at all possible, if you must engage in bashing/trashing, please take it to one of the many other thread where such things are already going on.

Here's the link to the new video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Um7BfvnyOc).

Enjoy. Discuss. http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/smilies/wink.gifAnd for the text version:It's really not subtle at all when you've spent a few days with a crossbow and switch to bow. http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Anyways, here are the numbers from the the (new) video.
ISB = Improved Swift Bow
PS = Penetrating Shot

Bow
From ISB Induction "Completed" to PS cooldown start.
75 frames
2.5 seconds

Crossbow
From ISB Induction "Completed" to PS cooldown start.
54 frames
1.8 seconds

Here's something some have requested (but I didn't include in the video)

Bow w/ Fire Oil Applied
From ISB Induction "Completed" to PS cooldown start.
69 frames
2.3 seconds

So, at least on my Elf Hunter, flaming oils did partially remedy the situation. However, it didn't make the bow nearly as fast as the crossbow.I knew crossbows were faster but not by this much. If you're not an Elf for Bow racial bonus, get a crossbow hands down.
Even with racial bonus it's a tough call. In many places speed is very important.

This will make my choice even harder. I'll just get a 60 bow first and then 59 crossbow. This really needs to be parsed - and /bugged everyday in-game.