Hunters are misunderstood

[BinabikErebor]

When I rolled my first character, I wanted to create Binabik -- he's a troll, and the closest thing I could find in Lotro was a Dwarf or a Hobbit, and I preferred Dwarf. He uses a blowtube to hit his enemies, and the closest thing I could find was a hunter.

Hence, Binabik, the Dwarven Hunter.

When I read threads here, I find two messages : 1, hunter is easymode -- 2, dwarf is (depending on the person writing) the best or the not so good race to play hunter.

Then, I read threads like the one written by Alash about dps of each class when soloing -- and the entire thought came together when I played Loremaster and subsequently: Burglar.

Here is my statement. Hunter is not easymode, in fact, it may very well be hardmode. Dwarf may be the best race to play hunter with, but it can also be harder.

Beware, there is a distinction between fellowship/raid and solo-play.

Damage output

This is definitely the first topic, that's what hunters are supposed to do. Blindside, Penetrating shot, QuickShot, Barbed arrow, Rain of arrows, Heartseeker, Merciful shot,Swift Bow, those are your most damaging skills.

While you play, you will come to rotate through skills : Quickshot, Swift Bow, Barbed arrow, Penetrating shot.

All of these have induction on them and when you get into close-combat, they're slowed down a great deal. So, you depend on how long you can keep an enemy away from you. For that purpose, you have a trap, rain of thorns, bards arrow, quickshot and crafted traps and distracting shot, each with a different time of duration.

In comes your first enemy, you hit it with rain of thorns, you start firing away, hit it with distracting shot when it unlocks, hit with bards arrow, continue to hit it. Enemy down.

In comes a second enemy, you put down your trap (in combat), put down a crafted trap.

In comes a third enemy, all of the above roots and stuns are on cooldown, your power ran out, you either hit DF or you are dead. (my hunter is broke all the time on repairs)

==========

On my LM, I would send my pet at the first enemy and send that pet heals while I add some damage myself, a second enemy runs in and I stun it, a third enemy runs in and I would root the lot, unlock all my skills with the emergency button (forgot the name of the skill :) stun one, send my pet at the one he was attacking, and then take them out one by one. (my LM is my richest character)

==========

On my Burglar I would start hitting one, stun the second when it would join in, hit ready and able and stun the third, hit touch and go when the second unlocks and kill all three one by one. (my Burg steals from my LM, but that's beside the point)

==========

So, how is Hunter easy mode ? You don't have such a button that resets your timers. Your skills need distance and as soon as you come into close-combat range, hunters can take on 1, 2 enemies, starting at 3 you get interupted so much, you don't do any damage at all.

Look at Alash' thread about comparing class dps and you will see that hunter comes out the lowest.

The myth started of course in a fellowship. A hunter hangs back and simply hits 3 or 4 buttons and does more damage than the entire fellowship put together. Of course, the inductions aren't being interupted -- whereas your average dps in solo is about the dps of your lowest damage skill, here you can go Swiftbow, Quickshot, Penetrating shot, Merciful shot all the time and average at 400 damage / shot (endurance).

As very frequently, the sum of 1+1 is not 2. In the case of a Guardian and a Hunter teaming up, the sum of the Guardian's solo dps and the Hunter's solo dps is not the sum. In fact, it adds up exponentially because the Hunter is not suffering interuptions.

Another thing dawned on me when I took my Burg for a solofight on a mob. My dwarf hunter could kill a signature enemy at equal level.. but it would be hard. My loremaster can kill a signature enemy 2 levels above him. A burg can solo an ELITE equal level enemy (in my case a Troll in the trollshaws 4k morale) without breaking sweat. There's better players in this game, so they would say they could do more on their hunter.. I'm an unskilled LM/Burg and and when I play them, I outperform my hunter by a mile. So I think the comparison is a valid one.

So, folks, beware, if you roll a hunter -- you're going to be called an easy-mode player on these boards.. but it's debatable :)

oh.. and why is dwarf one of the toughest ones ? no racial self-heal :)

Binabik

[Arrgur]

Hello, I have levelled up every class to level 50, and almost completed levelling every class to 60 (my warden is 54 at moment).

In my collection of 60s I have two hunters (dwarf and hobbit). Why do I have two hunters?

Because levelling them up was easy-mode, in the time I killed 10 wargs using my ranged weaponry to pull them to me and them arriving half-dead to me, my burglar would kill 2-3 wargs due to melee only skills, shorter aggro range and lots more running around to get into range.

The only character similar to the hunter is the rune-keeper. It however has a shorter range and so needs to run around more, losing out on time/xp ratio there.

[Arrgur]

As for dwarf vs other races then the -20 agility starting stat on dwarves is what has kept most people away from them (dwarf hunter is least played class/race combo, elf hunter is most played class/race combo).

Instead of the racial heal they have however the awesome Endurance of Stone (absorb damage for 10 seconds) which when used usually outperforms the man heal (2-3000 while in 10 seconds could be getting hit for a lot more).

[BinabikErebor]

Because levelling them up was easy-mode, in the time I killed 10 wargs using my ranged weaponry to pull them to me and them arriving half-dead to me, my burglar would kill 2-3 wargs due to melee only skills, shorter aggro range and lots more running around to get into range.

You're right of course, when you can pick off those wargs one by one, you're home free. And you can track them on top of that, saving you hours searching for that one bleeping warg.

But venture a bit closer in on Weathertop and take your hunter to those goblin camps. Lets compare Hunter to all those other beautiful classes -- what happens when you find three, four goblins around a pot with your hunter, and what happens when you have those same enemies with a captain, a burg, a Loremaster ?

Binabik

[Ingaras]

Against nomal mobs your hunter probably outperforms every other class, which is exactly why hunters are fast levellers. In fellowships you're shielded by your guardian, so you just have to watch your threat and throw a trap now and then. So a lot of the games content is relatively easy on a hunter. The things they can't handle at all are suprise attacks and heavy signatures or elites. That's when every other class has some emergency button, we just got a lousy one: Desperate Flight. Basically we're the best or the worst, depending on the situation. But a lot of those bad situations can be avoided when you get to recognize them imo.

Edit: though, I do think hunters are misunderstood, but in a different way: look at the amount of hunters ignoring crafted traps, the number of fellowships ignoring nice traps you lay down and how little people actually know that with Endurance-Quick Shot, Strength Stance and Beneath Notice we're probably the best threat controlling class in the game.

[Telaron70]

To OP. An interesting & undoubtedly slightly tongue in cheek take on Hunters. :) In all honesty I do think levelling a Hunter is fast but not necessarily easymode. Due mainly to boredom I've rolled a few alts (Burg/ Champ/LM) lately and levelled them a bit. For the hell of it I also rolled another Hunter and yup, the Hunter kills & levels best of them all - maybe partly cos I know the class well.

The things they can't handle at all are suprise attacks and heavy signatures or elites.

This is the thing. It's all about surveying the battlefield & being prepared. This fits pretty well with how I see the Hunter from a role playing point of view. In nice open wilderness, with time to assess the situation & plan attacks, it is absolutely no problem to take 3, 4 or even 5 on level normals. As long as you can use the not inconsiderable cc you have available, the fight is decided before it even starts. Not quite the thoughtless nuking that some people believe is all Hunter's are capable of. The problem comes when you get the odd re-spawn thrown into the mix or you didn't see those guys behind a tree or whatever and you've just blown all your cc. At times like that I am forced to use my Strategic Retro Advance skill and umm..... run away. In a stately & dignified manner of course :D

[BinabikErebor]

Instead of the racial heal they have however the awesome Endurance of Stone (absorb damage for 10 seconds) which when used usually outperforms the man heal (2-3000 while in 10 seconds could be getting hit for a lot more).

I love Endurance of Stone.

I can imagine a Man Loremaster loving his man-heal for 2-3k + his instant selfheal on his Morale to full too :) + his instant-reset on a lot of his skills + the selfhealing gear everyone has and a moral potion. Meaning that a Man-loremaster can selfheal for about.. 6k+600 from necklace+600 from potion.. that's 7200 morale ;)

So, we dwarves end up with ONLY Endurance of Stone and we can't stealth or play dead like a hobbit can which means that DF is our only real way out and admit, desparately fleeing is so undwarflike :)


Binabik

[Tolgord]

In a group hunter is incredibly easy to play, even playing well and protecting mini, managing threat and curing poisons is easy as hell.
Solo it's hard to survive against some big groups of mobs but it's very boring just going through the same rotation.
Although I do the same thing with rotations on my Minstrel he just seems more fun to play.

[European]

Oh man! I love this! Why? I'm a dwarf hunter, and have played him since release. I never really considered the implications of playing that exact combo though, but after reading this I have to agree with a lot that's been said here. Ok so, yes, it was a real challenge to play him at times when the unanticipated respawns were overwhelming, and other similar situations, but I had to deal with that, and in the only way possible; getting better at what I do! I had to start thinking at all times about my position compared to the enemies I see, always considering the best position to be in to avoid surprises too. Even, at times, laying a trap behind me just in case! I've also built my hunter to be best able to survive IF unforseen things should happen, by concentrating a lot on getting good armor and slotting all the virtues that gives armor buffs. I had to learn to quickly ascertain if the amount of enemies were survivable or not, and also how to always keep some focus and power left in case I need it for surprise mobs. I had to learn the hard way to keep the aggro balanced in groups, so the big boss won't come and one-shot me, instead of hammering on the tank.
I never compared myself to the others in how easy it may or may not have been for them compared to me, because I still had to live with it. Did these challenges make me a better player though? I think it did, and compared to the other classes I've tried from time to time, I agree. In many situations they do have advantages. But I like the challenge of being a god dwarf hunter, and I'll not bow to anyone who says it's a "bad" combo!

[Divona]

Nice topic post Binabik ;)

You put it all in the words very nicely.
After book 7 hunter is not actually easy mode when you solo and pull more than 1 mob at a time. It is actually reversed now comparing what it was before :)
I have also alt burg and lm and they have much more survivability than hunter has now. Even the fun part is not even close to hunter at the moment.
I can tell confidently that when i started this game 2 years ago i loved hunter class. Took part in every bit that game offered including PvMP. Sadly recent Turbine updates are not for my taste, so yes i left game.

About group play, there is not much you can do as hunter. Most important is "taxi role" :P and then comes the 1-4 button combo. It is really odd that hunter class scales differently so much when you compare it solo vs group play.

[BinabikErebor]

Do you still remember your first days as a Dwarven hunter?

I do. The day was already growing older when Binabik emerged in Thorin's Gate. Those first few quests down the epic thread. Teaming up with a person, and then checking the map where he was. That person was in Duilond, and I had the feeling that I was never going to get there -- it literaly felt like miles away. The rest of Middle earth seemed very distant indeed.

It was in those first days that my little dwarven hunter was defeated a first time. The idea of "Undying" still unknown, I ventured into the goblin enfested caves close to Thorin's hall. On the way over, 3 or more Goblins came to say hi and I quickly found out that Hunter would not be easy-mode. Running away not being written in my dwarven dictionary.

The first 10 levels had their bumps, and I found out that it required a fellowship to do most of my quests. I still remember the fight with Skithi Blackhand (still an elite enemy at the time) and the number of times it required to kill him.

The trip up the Goblin camp across from Noglond I did in the company of a fellow dwarf. We slid down the mountain face on the others side -- he said, "us dwarves are a sturdy lot, we can take a jump like this." It had been the 10th time I had ventured inthere and finally the quests got completed. Not so long after I tried the same place and discovered Sarnur. It would take another 5 months before I was able to get some revenge out of those Dourhand guarding the door.

But young Binabik was ready to enter the rest of middle earth.

How is Hunter easymode ? My next character started in the Shire and in Breeland. It took him at least to level 15 before he got defeated a first time :) -- he is a hobbit Burglar and an expert at delivering mail.. sneakingly.

How were your first days as a hunter. Hunter being the first character you rolled ?

Binabik

[zimoo]

How were your first days as a hunter. Hunter being the first character you rolled ?

I died at about level 12 after aggroing one too many Neeker-breekers near Bree. To this day I still hate them and all norbog-like creatures :p

I rolled a new hunter recently, got him to 15 without dying (very comfortable, as I'm alot more familiar with both the game and the class now)...then promptly stopped playing both him and my level 60, as I realised that my level 15 hunter was using the EXACT same skill combo in every fight as my 60 hunter...

Hunters are good at what they do. They can burn down single trash mobs quite quickly, and their travel skills are by far the best out of all the classes (we joke with our regular hunter about her only being there for the taxi back to 21st hall after :p). When it comes to multiple mob fights, unexpected adds, providing utility in a fellowship...they very much lack compared to other classes.

The lack of utility in a fellowship is what made me give up on my hunter. My LM can AOE debuff, CC, keep everyone topped up with power, put out reasonable single target dps, spot heal, cure wounds/diseases and off-tank...all at once. If I re-arranged my traits I could get massive AOE dps (second only to a Champion), at the cost of a single CC skill. Hunters just have nowhere near as many options. The odd CC skill here and there, poison curing the odd nasty effect and putting out fairly disappointing single target dps. We only have 1 level 60 hunter in our group of friends, and I'm almost 100% positive that if she had ANY alt at level 60 we'd always want the alt.

[MéLAnoR]

I died at about level 12 after aggroing one too many Neeker-breekers near Bree. To this day I still hate them and all norbog-like creatures :p

made me lol
How is everyone doing?
I heard nerfine hesitated to announce any info regarding if hunters are WAI and if DD is still be a part of Systems Team ( class dev team)
but i have confirmed info on Guard Dev Hakai has left ages ago so might DD too.
Whatever havent logged the game and hopefully someone pay my house fees or nevermind anyway.
Norbogs rule thats certain :p

[Calladan]

There is only one place where hunters rule by far (by 40m to be exact). Ettens. Rest classes r just wannabes there.
And do not underestimate easymode! Everyone likes easymode! :)


How is everyone doing?


We are in the same ship Mel :)
Around 2 months away from Middle Earth :(

[European]

Oh I remember all right :)
I was an avid FPS gamer, but was a fan of Lord of the Rings, so I decided to try it out, while being adamant about that I was a single player gamer, and would never bother with grouping or any other non-soloplayer things. I managed to stick to that rule untill l26 actually :)
I am a former PnP AD&D player, and noticed that it was actually possible to play a Dwarf with a bow in this game, which I had never heard of before. So I decided to try it :)
And the game was fun! I marvelled at the size of the game, and the fact that you could go anywhere without having to group (like you had to do in D%D Stormreach and Guildwars, which I'd tried before, and tired of for that reason).
After Thorin's I also suffered the inevitable first death at the goblin fortress. Annoying as it was, I continued and tried everything solo untill I succeeded. If i died, i just waited a couple of levels and tried again :)
But the wonder of the game and visiting all the places I had read about was fantastic!
Being the solo fanatic that I was, I still noticed ppl saying things in the chat window, and tried to answer or talk to some of them. I didn't have a clue about channels, so everything I typed came out with a "Say" in front of it, which to me seemed perfectly logical, as I was trying to "say" things. But ppl rarely answered, which puzzeled me, and I concluded that this game had a lot of impolite players :)
After a while I learned everything about the game of course, but I will never forget the good days of discovering wonderfull Ered Luin :)

[MéLAnoR]

btw Binabik , nice thread.:)
and in spite of general understandings actually dwarfes are the best solo race for hunter class regarding mechanics and skills/traits.
Agility loss is insignificant but other things make dwarfes more sturdy and still as dangerous as other races.
Did i mention elf bow damage bonus has never worked or maybe they fixed it with moria? (havent tested after moria)
Well my statement is based upon a solıd analysis whıch ages ago posted here or on us forum and i dont think we can find that thread along with other very nice analytic threads.Sometimes i pity why we dont have an archive for those *sigh*

Calladan are you playing any other mmorpg? I got rid of my pc and laptop so barely even log online for e-mails etc..

[Kheld]

Nice Thread.

I rolled a Elf Hunter in Beta, not because im a legolas wannabe but im an Elf lover, and have always played Archer classes.

Hunters have nice DPS compared to "non-DPS" classes so can grind quickly, but there are some things a Hunter cannot do.

Mention "Escort Quest" to any experianced Hunter & see them wince.

Sometimes I really wish id rolled a Man for the Self Heal - its an awesome skill on my Grd or LM. Ive never fancied rolling a Dwarf tbh.

The lack of "panic skills" was identified early by our old kin leader, he had level 50's of every class & always asked the dedicated Hunters "Why do you play this class?"

I can say that (at least early on) a RK is an awesome class. Ranged DPS on the move & self heals - very nice. I wish Hunter could be as much fun.

[Telaron70]

Mention "Escort Quest" to any experianced Hunter & see them wince.



Made me chuckle. So true :)

[Calladan]

btw Binabik , nice thread.:)
and in spite of general understandings actually dwarfes are the best solo race for hunter class regarding mechanics and skills/traits.
Agility loss is insignificant but other things make dwarfes more sturdy and still as dangerous as other races.

Calladan are you playing any other mmorpg? I got rid of my pc and laptop so barely even log online for e-mails etc..

hehe Dwarf Hunters are almost as funny as dwarf minstrels. The are far more resilient than Elven hunters which is generally cool (RULE: Survival>Dmg) and +15vitality +overall sturdiness is a great advantage at early lvls. I think that the +30 (or +35, -15for dwarves +15 or +20 for Elves, cant recall) agility bonus that Elves have against Dwarves doesnt really matter at late 60s. Items and Traits can fix that.

No other MMO Mel, just heavy workload,hope to be back sometime in the (near...?) future.

[BinabikErebor]

The dwarven hunter had just reached level 16 or 17 when he arrived in Bree. At this point, Hunters have a trap, strength stance, focus, Swift bow, Quickshot and Penetrating shot. Pretty much the skills a level 60 hunter relies on most.

Other stances than Strength stance are only acquired at level 18 and above. Now you team up with folks and you outperform them DPS-wise and Threat-wise pretty easily. And of course, you are supposed to know when you should stop firing to avoid stealing aggro ?

Beneath notice is 20 levels ahead, Endurance stance is 10 levels ahead. So, you don't have anything to avoid getting aggro except timing your shots. It's a subtle art.

At one point I had a Hunter along with my Loremaster and I asked him to try stay below the threat of my bear -- not an easy task.

As it happened, Binabik traveled through The Shire without completing that many quests. In fact, he went there after being sent to meet Aragorn in the Prancing poney, so I guess it wasn't intended that he would do that many quests in the Shire.

Those first trips into the Old forest, in fact, that very first time when gloom gripped your heart, the whole atmosphere changed -- quite impressive. Later in time, the Barrow downs and the god forsaken saving of Lalia. Do you remember saving Lalia ? I do. I saved her 10 or 15 times and still the brat would be hanging around in those Barrows, at some point I even swore I would kill her myself since she kept walking us from ambush to ambush and it needed a pretty strong team back then to get her out of the place. The end of the quest still set at dead man's perch at the time.

And then, The Great Barrow.

I remember my first trip to that place -- wipe after wipe at the entrance because it was infested with Elite Spiders. You got killed and respawned inside the cave, within aggro range of the spiders. The word Wipefest was invented there.

At this point I might already have acquired my campfire, my agile rejoinder, Precision stance -- I quite clearly remember that I tried using my campfire to increase my in-combat regen-- until I discovered that it only worked out of combat :)

A level 50 Loremaster got me through the 5th trip through the Great Barrow. He soloed the place. Later, when Binabik reached level 50, he tried the same thing, but the spiders got the better of him and he used DF to walk out in a dignified fashion ;)

Hunter may very well be Hardmode -- and I wouldn't have wanted it differently -- a lot of the quests that seem trivial on other classes I played, where challenging when soloing them as my hunter. And dwarves -- it may very well be the best race to be when choosing Hunter -- at least, I feel it to be so -- especially when you earn your horse, you got a lebethron bow on your back and you fear that your dwarf might take off with such immense wings protruding.

The trip into the Lonelands and into the Northdowns ahead -- but Bina lingered in Bree for a very long time.

How was your time in Bree as a Hunter -- the Barrows -- the Old forest -- Tom Bombadil ?

Binabik

[Eikinskialdi]

My hunter is purely dwarf because I'm sick of all the legolas kids.

[makarios68]

My hunter is purely dwarf because I'm sick of all the legolas kids.
Me too :)

I always make a hunter first in every game i play, (then try other classes later.)

I also avoid the elven race in every game i play, to avoid the whole elf - hunter - closest spelling to Legolas naming thing.

[BinabikErebor]

Let me explain one of the ways a hunter is underestimated.

Have you ever done this ?

You, the hunter, were traveling with melee fighters. And of course, a single enemy was standing in the distance and you knew you could solo it easily. And then, that demon inside you told you NOT to hit it. And those poor unknowing melee fighters would run over to the enemy, but the second they would reach him you would then release a penetrating shot into that enemy and he would run to you, the melee fighers breathing hard in it's track. And then you would unleash your wrath on the enemy, and by the time the melee fighters had reached that wretched enemy, it would be lieing dead at your feet.

And you would not stop at one time, but do it a couple of times -- just not enough to alarm those unknowing Melee fighters who would excuse you because you might still be a very new player :)

moohaahaaahaaahaa.

Ahem ** readjusts his coat ** but not us honourable dwarves of course.

Binabik

[Marqlar]

Got a 41 hunter atm, and my main is a lvl 60 LM.

If going into a multi pull I usually use my triple trap. It's AMAZING how much difference it can make. You can keep 2 mobs trapped for 1 minute total which is pretty damned good. I don't even have rain of thorns yet.

Hunter's have equally good CC as a LM if they choose to spec for it. Unfortunately there's just nowhere it's really needed yet. At most a few places. And I would claim that even a fully specced CC hunter will outDPS a CC specced LM on sustained single target DPS.

I must say that a DPS specced LM is not nearly the CC monster a DPS specced hunter is. Unless we go with the eagle (which a DPS specced LM usually don't) we have only 1 CC skill of use, the root. Unspecced that's 3 targets every 2 mins. I don't count our "root over time" here, because that's basicly useless in fellows. Now compare that to a hunter that just have a few select CC skills traited. Hands down to the hunter.

Common misconception about the LM is "yeah he only loses 1 CC skill by going DPS". But remember that is the defining skill of the LM CC. Now LMs still have loads of tricks up their sleeves with wound cure (poison cure for hunters), debuffs and powersharing.

Now in solo it's another matter, since the pet also counts as CC (in a sense), so I'm not arguing that hunters are easier to solo, far from it. I just think you should realise you can CC as well as a LM if you need/choose to, and still have superior single target DPS (compared to a LM).

How many of you guys put the trap *behind* you when you solo btw? I found out that was an incredibly strong tool to increase survivability against single strong mobs. Burn your focus, and blindside, run 40m back and then resume. Much more controlled than placing the trap in front of you (against single mobs ofc). If you really want, you can put down a quicktrap by then and repeat...

Hunters are such an easy class to play if you just pew pew in fellows (aggro management is par none), but you just have so much up your sleeves if need be.

I would love an instance/raid where CC was so crucial that you basically couldn't get enough CC and hunters got the chance to explore that aspect of their class as well. And in a sense the RK may have forced hunters a bit to think outside the box. Do an instance with a RK instead of a LM and you will be primary CC (for those few instances that need it). Try it out. You may like it....

[Calladan]

I still believe hunters CC is a kind of joke. Mostly because most players, non hunters, dont let hunters to CC properly.
CC is very usefull in PvP (It's really nice at PvP) and a bit usefull in solo PvE IF u stay cautious when playing. Bard's Arrow is nice but easily resisted and can be catastrophic if there are other mobs around and u dont pay attention. RoT have a 3 min CD and no skill to reset, same for Distraction Shot, and still resist rate is a problem.
But its ok if u r patient and paying attention to the surroundings (ahem, that's not easy mode, that's planning :)).

The real joke is in fs/raids.
"I m rooting, ok?" says the hunter
"No, lets wait for LM CD so he can root", says leader. Really annoying.

LFF Channel: LF LM for GS run
Hunter: /tell to leader: I can retrait and do the CC
Leader: /tell back: No thnx we prefer an LM for the CC

And the best of all. Besides the fact the only a few hunters use crafted traps ( they are awesome ) even fewer have the chance to use them in runs. A hunter can root up to 9 enemies, without traiting for Trapper Path, and none uses that. Runs can be much easier if hunters are given time to full focus and place traps down.

[BinabikErebor]

One of the things I like to do when I play my LM is put the fight on time-out. When I'm fighting a single mob I just chain-stun it untill I'm sufficiently powered up if needed.

While you play your hunter, you will notice one distinct thing : inductions. Every one of your bow-skills has them. Every one of them can be interupted. Today, I was sparring with a champion -- silliness must exist -- his tactic is to circle around you at quite a speed. A commonly used tactic tbh.

He used it so efficiently that I was unable to fire a single arrow (except 1 autoattack if I remember correctly) Those CC-skills are useful if you don't get jumped -- indeed, a quicktrap might have been useful, but a general rule applies for me : those crafted traps -- only as sparingly as I can because they are rather hard to come by (for me).

When a LM gets jumped.. root the lot, step back and start attacking. He can instantly remove the cooldown on that skill. A hunter will Rain thorns once -- then, almost simultaneously, those mobs he rooted will unroot and renew their attack -- careful now, bard arrow might make that mob bring friends. The stun you got is rather short (unless traited) -- A quickly dropped triple trap can solve that, but those are rather expensive.

I'm dreaming of a traited triple trap :)
So : Hunter = LM+inductions-resetbutton-immense selfheal = Hardmode when soloing :)


Binabik

[Scatha the Worm]

Regarding CC:

I think CC is fine as it is: A soloing advantage. I'm ok with Hunter being a ST DPS pure role, it just doesn't come out good enough at it. The Trapper of Foes needs quite some help to stand up to "main CC" status, but the real problem is in the content: we're given roots as our CC deployement but root are mostly useless everywhere, and CC is generally trivialized and unneeded.

And if I were the leader of a group/raid (which I usually am), I would also pretty much laugh at a hunter trying to provide real CC. Most actual CC requirements call for chain-mezz-ability (content thing), which we can't do. While properly traited for it, a Hunter can chain-root something, but it is just useless against casters and archers. Fear, with it's random runaway target mayhem, is a pain (just check forges 2nd boss, a bad turn and you'll reset the fight), it can even bring back more adds. And a CC traited Hunter does ridiculously low DPS, and only brings cure poison as an extra. A LM has a ****load of awesome (AoE) debuffs, cure disease and wound, a LOT more and better CC, power management for the whole raid, one of the best corruption removal skills, and some pretty strong buffs. Burgs also bring good debuffs, the life-saver CJs, and can actually chain-mezz (tho they still come far behind a LM in utility, poor burgs... they are like us, sitting in the bench).

DPS also sucks if you start comparing... But enough of that already.

Group CC Hunter=fail. Bring a LM/Burg.
Group DPS Hunter=fail. Bring a RK/Champ.
Ranged Tank Hunter=perhaps... Is that our future job? The Watcher now looks like a pretty clear message... Suck at DPS and CC, excel at ranged aggro generation at the cost of all you power and group desirability.

I found my group role as Raid Leader... After all, the hunter is so dull and requires so little skill, that I can pay a lot of attention to a lot of other things.

[nennest74]

Have to say that being a hunter has been the most fun experience iv had in this game *none elf or dwarf*
Iv been enjoying my class tons both in fellowships as soloing and traps is a must in my bag
The little iv had to do with bree and barrows is just 3 days if you count all the deed runs aswell
The second fellowship i had was when we were going to do the book with tom and i have to say it went fast we just nailed it
two hunters minstrel guardian and i think the last class was a warden well there was no lore master with us

Dying wasnt even in my notebook until i made a huge mistake and ran into a spider nest filled with spiders *had about 9 or so on me* so that was just it :)

[agoracy_]

My hunter is purely dwarf because I'm sick of all the legolas kids.

Actually, I am rolling an elf, and I don't think I am a Legolas kid. Another brilliant post, without no argumentation at all..

I am playing an elf, and mostly because they were the real bow professionals back in LotR. I cannot imagine a dwarf (or a hobbit) being as fast or same agile like an elf, when using a bow. To hobbits, give them stone throwing mastery, to dwarf, give them an axe. The only race that comes close to our abilities (lore speaking) is man, but for some reasons, I have decided to play as an elf.

[BinabikErebor]

am playing an elf, and mostly because they were the real bow professionals back in LotR.


You will roll an elf -- that is fine, nobody will contest that. You will be an archer, a bowman .. or bowelf if you will. You might notice however that I am neither. Binabik is a Hunter.

A Hunter distinguishes himself from archers in any number of ways -- I believe it to be true, Hunters are misunderstood.

Our art lies not in dps. It lies in tracking, it lies in trapping and finally in taking down on a carefully selected quarry. For that job, us dwarves are perfectly cut out. Very dangerous on short runs as we are, we are masters at what we do. But there is one grudge I hold. Why do us hunters get so little choice of weaponry. A bow, a crossbow.. no spear to throw -- surely that is a mistake? No sling ? Have you ever heard such a thing?

And none of the fluff other races like to depend on. Like ..selfheals.. or speed.. as if we want our kills swift -- or play dead -- that's only second to 'Desparate flight'. Instead we flourish dwarven endurance, endurance of stone.

It is not an easy path.

But us Dwarves do not seek .. easy.

I hope we may fight evil together some day, Elf. And when we do, I will keep you safe as I know you will keep me safe. :)


Binabik

[agoracy_]

But us Dwarves do not seek .. easy.

You said you are a hunter, Indeed, I am a hunter too. And back to your post, now you claim you're a dwarf before being a hunter. Please remember that you need to pick a race before going any further by choosing a desired class. To be honest, this is my first MMO (I will not count Silkroad), and I have decided to give it a try mostly because I thought Lotro will be a game very lore-based.

It's true, hunter is not all about using a bow, but our other utilities are too small compared with our primary role, killing foes fast, from range, helping our allies in the first lines.

What makes you think I am looking easy? We have our reasons for playing a game, I have given mine. I like to stay at range, I don't like getting dirty with orc blood, that's why I prefer using a bow.

And please remember that a hunter can survive without using his tracking/trapping skills, but a hunter cannot survive without using his bow. Mastering a blade is one thing (lore sort of speaking) but mastering a bow is even more difficult. It's true, dwarfs were great warriors, but seeing them fighting with a bow, I don't think they will be as good as an elf when it comes to ranged fighting. We can focus faster, we have better eyes for aiming our foes, we can disappear quick if it comes to ambush our enemies. This is my "lore" point of view.

In other therms, Racial skills are not that important, but I must say that I enjoy elf "power bonus" when in a fellowship... :)

No hard feelings, just stating my opinion :)

[BinabikErebor]

####What makes you think I am looking easy? We have our reasons for playing a game, I have given mine. I like to stay at range,####

plese dont misunderstand.. there is no negativity in my post.

if you read my first post, you will notice that I chose dwarf pretty randomly.. and found myself in the corner that didn't get much love from the devs... and I'm loving it :-)

but 1 people confuse hunters and archers.. and people mistake hunter with easymode.

Binabik

[Telaron70]

Me - I think Dwarf Hunters can definitely never be described as easymode, I mean... imagine keep getting that big ole beard caught up in the bow string? Ouch!!! :D

[BinabikErebor]

Me - I think Dwarf Hunters can definitely never be described as easymode, I mean... imagine keep getting that big ole beard caught up in the bow string? Ouch!!! :D

And there we hit a vital point indeed. I would not go as far as to ask for shortlegged deer and such, so we can hit them in the head.. that would push matters too far.. but beard-guard seems a minimum..

Binabik

[agoracy_]

####What makes you think I am looking easy? We have our reasons for playing a game, I have given mine. I like to stay at range,####

plese dont misunderstand.. there is no negativity in my post.

if you read my first post, you will notice that I chose dwarf pretty randomly.. and found myself in the corner that didn't get much love from the devs... and I'm loving it :-)

but 1 people confuse hunters and archers.. and people mistake hunter with easymode.

Binabik

Heh, I know, sorry if my post seems rude, it was not my intention. But from your sayings, I understood other races are easy mode, well, we have the same skills, racial traits could make a difference, but all have bonuses/minuses. :)

At the guy above, with the beard joke, yeah, that's quite true, mastering a bow is even more difficult when you have to deal with such a long beard! That's why I find quite appropriate Xbow using for dwarves. These are some mechanisms (I consider them to be a bit inappropriate, but... meh) that this race could use instead of a bow, and even if I stated above that these weapons are out of lore (or partially out of lore, if it comes for a hunter) they fit dwarf race perfectly, since they were masters in doing complicated mechanisms etc etc etc, you got my point :D

@ binabik, really good idea, I enjoy reading this kind of posts :)

[Telaron70]

.... You, the hunter, were traveling with melee fighters. And of course, a single enemy was standing in the distance and you knew you could solo it easily. And then, that demon inside you told you NOT to hit it. And those poor unknowing melee fighters would run over to the enemy, but the second they would reach him you would then release a penetrating shot into that enemy and he would run to you, the melee fighers breathing hard in it's track. And then you would unleash your wrath on the enemy, and by the time the melee fighters had reached that wretched enemy, it would be lieing dead at your feet.

Aaah ... brings a tear of nostalgia to my beady bloodshot eyes. Unfortunately these days the darn mob is more than likely still battering me about the head while my colleagues slowly jog back laughing at my foolishness.

(obvious nerf reference is obvious ;))

[aragurulas]

I disagree with the first post, my hunter handles 5 enemies and then walks away laughing. Triple trap, trap skill, focus, swiftbow on one, barbed arrow, AoE, high chance of him being dead, if not another skill (depends on his health). Now pick them off 1 by 1, pop a power pot, if they get in melee use your melee skills

My hunter is lvl 35 now, did this multiple times

[BinabikErebor]

5 enemies that jump on top of you ? Or 5 enemies that you carefully pick out and prepare for ?

In my first post I was explaining the former.

And the AoE attack would unlock all the ones you just trapped. I'd avoid that if I were you :) There's great fighters around -- but 5 enemies jumping ontop of you.. a hunter won't survive. A Loremaster would.

Anyway.. to quote a very eloquent individual on these boards : "Screenshots or it didn't happen" :)

Binabik

[agoracy_]

I disagree with the first post, my hunter handles 5 enemies and then walks away laughing. Triple trap, trap skill, focus, swiftbow on one, barbed arrow, AoE, high chance of him being dead, if not another skill (depends on his health). Now pick them off 1 by 1, pop a power pot, if they get in melee use your melee skills

My hunter is lvl 35 now, did this multiple times

what lvl were the mobs, if I may ask? Try fighting 5 mobs of your lvl, even with traps, you will not have the time to kill them all, really now :D

And melee skills? What are you, a champion or something? Hitting mobs with melee skills as a hunter is like slapping foes with a cold fish...

[BinabikErebor]

Last night, I decided to go full trapper. So far, I had always played a mixture of Huntsmen and Bowmaster, but I thought it time to try out trapper.

The decision came when I earned my newest legendary skill that increases the duration of your distracting arrow.

It is a nice setup -- not an easy one to play -- but nice.

So, it cost me 440 silver to switch to that setup, but what the heck. First, I took my hunter for a spin near the exit of Moria and found that the 25% impediment on dps is a heavy price to pay, but because you can interup the fight and run away from the enemy a bit, it compensates.

Probably I should have trained a little more before taking on the Library of Steel. I had cleared that instance before without too much sweat, although the slow pace at which kills take place forced me to kill a lot of the fire-spirits to avoid failure.

Now, on Trapper, the story was quite different.

The DPS was so low that I had to go find the fire-spirits and kill them before the instance would fail -- major issue because at times I would inadvertently aggro more enemies.

Of all the setups, it seems to me that the Hunter set up for Trapper is the more challenging one. It requires a lot more finesse -- which is not mine yet -- I swapped back to Huntsmen/Bowmaster soon after -- but it was a nice journey.

Binabik

[Telaron70]

Your experience seems to confirm what most Hunter's have found out. I think I'll just save myself the 440s. I just can't understand why anyone would want to go ToF with such a dps penalty. It may be a little bit of fun testing out the skills, but can you imagine doing a slayer deed like that? Trap them & kill them with a 1000 tiny pinpr1cks or just kill them swiftly & cleanly? As I believe that even Orcs should be put down humanely (& I'm lazy) I go for the second option every time.

[BinabikErebor]

Your experience seems to confirm what most Hunter's have found out. I think I'll just save myself the 440s. I just can't understand why anyone would want to go ToF with such a dps penalty. It may be a little bit of fun testing out the skills, but can you imagine doing a slayer deed like that? Trap them & kill them with a 1000 tiny pinpr1cks or just kill them swiftly & cleanly? As I believe that even Orcs should be put down humanely (& I'm lazy) I go for the second option every time.

Indeed, it seems a bit harsh to turn them into pincushions like that -- but if you like a challenge, it sure is one.

Our role in the game is pretty clear : ranged DPS -- Maybe us hunters should be loved a bit more -- an extra class created called : Archer with super DPS and next to no crowdcontrol and leave us Hunters be.. Hunters -- specialized in hunting down.. giving us stealth to allow us to sneak up on our quarry.

Binabik

[Scatha the Worm]

Trapper of Foes is a trait line that is supposed to bring CC to primary role, giving up DPS to secondary role. By design, I like it. If you are going to do normal solo grind work, Your average Bowmaster/Hunstman build will go faster, provided you get some decent OOC regen.

The problem with Trapper of Foes is that CC is so completely trivialized in MoM that it sees little plausible use. Furthermore, root based CC is not that efficient a way to pin-lock a mob but in itself wouldn't be that bad. The real problem is our mezz doesn't complain the ISO standard of chainability.

If CC wasn't trivial, and was truly required, this line would probably pay for some, and I would have tried it. Maybe I would have even levelled a bow with Distracting Shot cd and resistance, just for the rare ocassion CC is actually NEEDED and there is no burg/lm to be found, but CC is never needed. LMs are now more valuable for their debuffs, than because of their CC. And for stuff like forges, a Hunter with RoT, Bard's Arrow, and Combat Traps is more than enough for the little cc needed on the trolls. You don't need to even slot more than 1 trait in the line to be able to do that.

[Ingaras]

A little bit offtopic, but you might not want to use Bard's on the trolls in forges. They have the nasty habbit of running outside the fighting area when feared (even a pile of rocks doesn't stop a troll in fear...) causing the fight to reset.

[BinabikErebor]

Do you remember the time when you first entered the Trollshaws ?

It was by far the place where I fealt like a hunter for the first time. Bears roaming, wolves roaming in the woods of the Trollshaws. I must admit that the area east of Ost Forod in Evendim breathes some of that same atmosphere.

How did you experience that area as a hunter? Was there a point where you fealt really comfortable soloing ? Enemies tend to walk in on you in almost every part of that place -- luckily, some of them at least give a warning before attacking.

But it is not only the confined spaces that are created by the woods and hills. Of course, the true charm of the Trollshaws is the long drops off cliffs. It took me a while before I fealt like a hunter in that place and was able to travel through it without toppling off a mountainside.

For me, the most part of it, I prefered duoing. A lot of the quests there require you to travel into spider, wolf, troll-infested places that are just a tad scary to solo. Mostly because you don't get any room to back away from your enemy and not catch the attention of yet another bear.

I was very happy that Evendim provided content for me too at that level so I could alternate -- Evendim is somewhat more solo-friendly.

This was also the time when I discovered that you could smoke in Lotro -- ever since, my dwarf has turned into a tobacco adict.

How were your days in your mid-30ies ?

Binabik

[agoracy_]

Well, we use to smoke pipe weed in Middle earth(tobacco is so lore breaking, hush!). But yes, I am a pipe weed addict as well, he he..

My favorite place was the old forest, back in bree... I think the hunter quest at lvl 15 was the most "hunter-like" experience I ever had in this game. The feeling of loneliness, that there is always someone watching you (the living trees shaking from time to time, the strange sounds, the willow glade, that was lovely!). Not to mention that little swamp, in the western part of the forest, where those bears sit on the rocks... That's the best place a hunter can be...

I don't feel like a hunter anymore when entering Moria... I just miss the Forochel (with all snow storms), I just miss the Chetwood forests, the Wardspire surroundings, in Ered Luin... In Moria I feel that I am just a warrior, a guy sent to clean the place of beasts and insects that lurks the place, an orc slayer and nothing more :(

Didn't enjoyed Trollshaws that much, I still have nightmares from the "crawler" deed, so no thank you :). I think Evendim is the place where I enjoyed hunting the most, one of the few areas that made me turn the game music on!

[Telaron70]

Do you remember the time when you first entered the Trollshaws ?

It's an enduring memory I have - standing on the Last Bridge at level 18 or so and being scared to cross. Like really, actually, scared. That's one thing I really miss now, the sense of awe & excitement that the game seemed to throw up all the time. It was great being a noob ;). I'd made it through Lone Lands by sticking to the path and eventually I plucked up the courage & ran all the way to the other side of Bruinen Gorge before being killed by - a Fly!! I had no idea I was on the way to Rivendell.

Mostly my 30's were a bit of a blur, I was in a levelling frenzy - I vaguely remember being rushed by a group (a bit higher level than me) through book 4 in those Troll caves but I had little idea of what was going on. I returned at nearer 40 to do all the quests out of Echad Candeleth to get that awesome bow Tongannels Joy and I especially remember a discovery deed that I had to complete by finding some place right in the heart of all those spiders in Wovenvales. No chance of fighting them - they had about 6k each and there were hundreds of them - just run and hope. Got lucky on about the 4th time.

Great zone :)

[Telaron70]

I don't feel like a hunter anymore when entering Moria...

Gotta agree. Moria isn't a place for Hunters. We need open country, forests, sky and weather. Let's hope the next zone is like that

[BinabikErebor]

It's an enduring memory I have - standing on the Last Bridge at level 18 or so and being scared to cross. Like really, actually, scared. That's one thing I really miss now, the sense of awe & excitement that the game seemed to throw up all the time. It was great being a noob ;). I'd made it through Lone Lands by sticking to the path and eventually I plucked up the courage & ran all the way to the other side of Bruinen Gorge before being killed by - a Fly!! I had no idea I was on the way to Rivendell.

Mostly my 30's were a bit of a blur, I was in a levelling frenzy - I vaguely remember being rushed by a group (a bit higher level than me) through book 4 in those Troll caves but I had little idea of what was going on. I returned at nearer 40 to do all the quests out of Echad Candeleth to get that awesome bow Tongannels Joy and I especially remember a discovery deed that I had to complete by finding some place right in the heart of all those spiders in Wovenvales. No chance of fighting them - they had about 6k each and there were hundreds of them - just run and hope. Got lucky on about the 4th time.

Great zone :)

It's that thin margin between being the hunter and getting hunted :)

Indeed, I remember those caves, the Onod shortly after and Legolas a bit further even -- the best of times -- I still consider them some of the best epics in the game. I redid them more times than I can count -- but three of my chars have progressed past them.

Amazing as it may be, each time I completed them it has been with fewer people. first 6-man, then 4-man, last time we were three -- I doubt I'll ever be able to solo them though :)

Good times those

Binabik

[BinabikErebor]

Time to tackle point at which "Hunter" is misunderstood.

Hunting you do for two reasons. To seek out and kill enemies and to seek out and kill animals for food. The second part is missing entirely.

Indeed, some gathering quests do require you to gather boar meat, bear hides etc, but why doesn't this happen every time ? Surely a boar will drop meat every time ? It would actually solve the overpopulation of boars the devs are experiencing because of people only picking out the mobs they need and not kill everything else.

Some dev once wrote : "Be a friend, kill a boar". Solution : let us hunters have their meat -- we can then provide cooks (and undercut the price of the npc's :))

Binabik