is it so bad?

[Dragon from bruges]

Hoi,

i'm lvling a hunter as my main char atm. Just started two months or so. I do read the forums on a regulary base. So a lot of hunters are complaining about dps. Is it so bad? I do play some other chars to (captain, warden, .... just love them all) but my main is the hunter. It's fun to look for a good position and kill them from there.... Sometimes it's tuff to kill three mobs on the same lvl... but... is it so bad as everybody on european and us servers are saying? I like to do the fellowship quests on my lvl with my hunter... but have to say the captain for example shines more in a group... but it's fun on a hunter too. Dps'ing mobs, pull agro form the mini...

Well i'm 28 now... not high at all, i do have fun... but indeed if i see my friend on his rk he has great dps and healing.... we dont have that much but hell.... i love him.

Are we like a lot off ppl are saying getting behind in dps or is it all not that much difference in end game?

and if you think we fall behind rk you think turbine/codemasters will fix it?

For me personally it's everything that counts... hunters do feel more lotro then rk... it fits more in the lore and so... but it's not an issue for me.

I love to put up my campfire on a nice location, just enjoying the enviroment.

well thats it :-)

ps; i hope turbine will not focus to much on pvp when they ballance things... because that will kill such a beautifull game.... it's the pve that makes the game for me...

greets

[MéLAnoR]

nope.
consider yourself lucky cause you havent seen the unnerfed hunter nor you hadnt witnessed much more devastating nerfes like book 11.
keep peww pewwing you ll be fine ;)

[Scappydog]

The biggest hit was the LI weapon damage reduction and the 'adjustment' to some of our skills/traits. At lower levels you won't really notice the effect, it was end game Hunter's that took the brunt. Under level 50 you probably won't notice much. If you had been level 60 for a while the 'nerf' was much more obvious.

[Aroril]

I never noticed any major change on my lvl 60 hunter. I never(or rarely) used strength stance but rather Precision and traited for Huntsman and it was the Bowmaster traitline that took the hit.

Reduction in weapon dps affected every class so it is not really something you can look into to much. Mob health/resistance/mitigation was dropped as well.

[nightbyday]

Well put it this way, one more dps or power nerf Hunter class will be.... Horrid.

Hunter as a class is just hanging in there, they are still very playable but just a lot harder to play and you have to watch what your are doing 'more fun' one might say.

Yeah its bad but not that bad

[Telaron70]

Book 7 was a sizable & painful slap in the face for a lvl 60 Hunter and we are certainly no longer at the top of the dps tree. Not downright awful (though it did feel like that at first) and I've managed to adjust fairly well, but I no longer get that little kick out of knowing I'm doing something no-one else does quite as well.

They really should change the description on the box to "Pretty good but not great, matched and sometimes surpassed by others for nuking abilty, uncontested King of the Taxidrivers" There - that'll get people flocking to play in their millions, move over WoW ;)

If u compare the relative dps to football (and why wouldn't you?) - we are in the play-offs, but don't qualify for automatic promotion.

TBH it is perfectly playable, is quite fun (though this is down to content really) and you won't miss what you never had. So if the Hunter fits the role you want to play in ME, carry on I would say.

Who knows, the outcry over this has been huge (shock horror - even 1 or 2 players of other classes think we might have been hit a wee bit to much;)) and Hunter's are a big part of the player base, we may even get a little TLC in the future.

[Silmahad]

The class is still playable, if you look at it without comparison. If you compare the hunter class to the runekeeper, then you suddenly start to realize how much you suck, be it dps, utility or a firm second class role.

[metallifan]

As others have said, it's almost only the end-game hunter before B7 that will notice the effect of the nerf. Rune-Keepers have better single DPS than hunters, and are more fun to play (unfortunately). Though i still like my hunter i would like him to be more appreciated in fellowships, either by better DPS, buffs or cc.

Reduction in weapon dps affected every class so it is not really something you can look into to much. Mob health/resistance/mitigation was dropped as well.

no, RK was not affected by reduced weapon DPS, at all.

[Emli]

As others have said, it's almost only the end-game hunter before B7 that will notice the effect of the nerf. Rune-Keepers have better single DPS than hunters, and are more fun to play (unfortunately). Though i still like my hunter i would like him to be more appreciated in fellowships, either by better DPS, buffs or cc.



no, RK was not affected by reduced weapon DPS, at all.

No, in end-game it doesn't get worse for the hunter in comparison to the RK. RK before didn't benefit at all from the insane DPS bonuses offered by Legendarys while hunters benefitted massively. Now that huge difference is evened out, so RK and hunter gear progression is more or less the same.

Rune-keeper's have higher DPS only situationally. For example, at the turtle boss where we can unleash hell with our array of DoT's we are indeed number 1, but in long instances with trash mobs like 16th hall we fall behind, same goes for bosses that have adds that need to be taken care of fast. Both classes are great at DPS, only in a different way. One is true though, RK gameplay is much more fun :).

And to the OP about the fact that while playing your hunter your RK friend "seems" to be doing higher damage, then it's just the fact that the grass always seems greener on the other side. You have probably read too much about the "tragic abuse from the devs" that the hunters have received and are searching for the nerf.

And just for note: The parses show that champions have higher DPS than both hunter and RK so: *points the requests for the nerf bat to the champ forums*.

[Avertuil]

Just my 2cents.

First some background. I have a lvl 60 hunter, my first character which I started with the relase of MoM and levelled up to 60 before bk7. Vritues are high, but not maxed. I have a nice 3rd age xbow. A 2nd age (even with half decent legacies) is not really achievable given the amount of grinding I am prepared to do for it, or the amount of gold I have. In my opinion a lvl 60 hunter like mine is not top-top-end, but he is fairly representative for the average lvl 60 hunter that has been around for a bit and was played a lot. Before bk7 hit I had already started an Rk to bring an extra healer into our kin. Rk seemed the best healer choice for my playing style. When bk7 hit my Rk was somewhere in his 30ies. My hunter used to be a bowmaster build, but ahead of Bk7 I switched to a hunter build to switch from burst DPS to more sustainable dps.

After bk7 hit, I found that solo play on my hunter became a lot more precarious. A typical hunter solo fight is about two things: keeping the mobs off your neck so your dps is not hit by getting in melee and basically is a race about the speed you do damage (who's morale drops faster, yours of the mobs). Pure and simple, no self heals except for a green pot. It's also about waiting out your inductions for the real shots and seeing them interrupted a lot while you are being pounded on. Bk7 did make my game play more varied, I was already using a lot of my CC abilities, but now more skills like needful haste, beneath notice, etc. found their way into my game. I liked that. So while frustrating I still enjoyed my hunter. I could play thriogh bk8, I had some tight spots but that should be part of an epic book I think.

However, a lot of my time went into levelling my Rk, he just hit 57. Firstly to get it fast to a position to support my kin in Moria, but also because a kinmate of mine got hacked, lost his lvl60 Guardian and started levelling up a new one. I have spent a lot of time duoing with him to help him level fast. That meant I got a lot of playing time on my Rk and rarely logged into my hunter for a while. I had great fun switching between dpsing when we were ok, or healing if needed. I love the no-induction and available on the move lightning skills, but also enjoy the powersmart momentum building fire DoT's. I had to get used to the healing role, initially feeling I did not contribute to the group because I was nog taking down mobs. But that quickly changed into getting a big buzz out of keeping everyone alive in a big fight. My Rk is mainly fire traited, so it's not a crit build, but a sustained dps build. Yeah.. it is frustrating that a lot of fs fights are over before I get access to my true dps skills. But then again, if the mobs die that fast it's not really important ;-). In big boss fights I love seeing my DoTs ticking away and really speeding up the morale drain.

Lately I went back to my hunter for some grinding (life in moria is expensive, especially if you concentrate on levelling). I was looking forward to playing him again after a relatively long time off. But I found the gameplay frustrating. It's static (always have to stand still to do anything that is damaging), it's slowwwwww all those inductions and waits for skills to become available, it's mindnumbingly boring rotating throught the same 4-5 skills of a focus burning setup. And hell, my light armour squishy Rk actually seems to survive more easily than my hunter! Grinding the same spots my Rk is a bit slower still (lvl 57 vs lvl 60), but a lot more fun. Solo I have played exclusively orange/red stuff on my Rk from the point I hit eregion (at lvl 44). I never managed that on my pre-bk7 hunter, and I shudder to think what it would be like on a post bk7 hunter. It's sometimes frutstrating to have to build up atunement before I can dps all out, however in fs settings on my hunter I also have to limit my dps output to prevent pulling aggro off the tank. So both classes ramp up in their dps output.

I expect to get more playtime on my hunter again after I hit 60 on my Rk. I still like the role a hunter plays in an fs, I have always seen it as much more than just dps. It's also about helping out with some CC, it may not be explicitly asked for, but it often does help your group survive. It's also about protecting your healer from ranged mobs. With medium armour a hunter is more suitable for that compared to an Rk (where you save your healer from damage, but potentially create an additional healing issue). Poison removal also helps in a number of instances.

Okay, that was more than I thought I'd type. Hopefully you made it through ;-)

[Scatha the Worm]

No, in end-game it doesn't get worse for the hunter in comparison to the RK. RK before didn't benefit at all from the insane DPS bonuses offered by Legendarys while hunters benefitted massively. Now that huge difference is evened out, so RK and hunter gear progression is more or less the same.
Hunters beneffited massively from weapon DPS, but that got levelled down globally. What truly hurt us was the skill damage nerf, critical mutipliers nerf, and power regen nerf.
Things are not evened out, A Lightning RK outputs more on burst, even not at full attunement, and a Fire RK outputs more on sustained long fights. And RKs can heal. But yeah, we have more range.
Rune-keeper's have higher DPS only situationally. For example, at the turtle boss where we can unleash hell with our array of DoT's we are indeed number 1, but in long instances with trash mobs like 16th hall we fall behind, same goes for bosses that have adds that need to be taken care of fast. Both classes are great at DPS, only in a different way. One is true though, RK gameplay is much more fun :).
The turtle is just as ideal an scenario for a RK or a hunter, and hunter should be better, that's the price for being able to do just 1 thing correctly. And for adds and trash mobs, a Champion is WAYS better than a hunter (even more considering a champ can also off-tank), so then again, no place for our class in your thought out niche.
Hunter is no more a great DPS class, it's an ok DPS class.
And to the OP about the fact that while playing your hunter your RK friend "seems" to be doing higher damage, then it's just the fact that the grass always seems greener on the other side. You have probably read too much about the "tragic abuse from the devs" that the hunters have received and are searching for the nerf.
While there probably is a lot around of "the grass is always greener...", I don't think this is the case. And as far as I recall you are posting a lot saying that hunters are ok as they are, when I don't think it would be a problem for anyone if our class got unnerfed (which is just a tiny part of getting fixed). Your motives? I dare not guess, but you seem to do that a lot with the other people, don't you think?
And just for note: The parses show that champions have higher DPS than both hunter and RK so: *points the requests for the nerf bat to the champ forums*.
The balance between champs and Hunters was just as screwed up in SoA. That's another proof that Hunter's ST DPS needs a rather significant buff, because I don't think anyone seriously thinks Champs need a nerf.

IMO RKs are considered opped probably because their highest burst skills (minus EC, which in comparison to Heartseeker or Merciful Shot is miles and leaps ahead in usability) can be cast on the run, which shouldn't have ever happened. Kiting was never favoured in LotRo and I rather liked that, it forced strategies to be more thought out than having a Benny Hill scene on Instace Y Boss X. Why suddenly introduce a class which can do it perfectly? Only the devs know. And RKs critical multipliers might need a little revision on the Lightning skills, but I couldn't care less, as long as the hunter gets back to being fun and desirable.

[Davout]

I have always been a proponent of balance in the game, whether it be to boost or nerf a class I have been willing to take it on the chin.

As I see it a hunter is a very playable class, currently. Fun and challenging. From that point of view you could say that it is OK as it is. Pre book 7 I was convinced that the class was very OP and I stand by that. I also strongly believe that the changes in hunter DPS is ‘broadly correct’. However I do believe that they slightly overstepped the mark. Whether this was done politically or just an error in judgment I am not sure, but I do believe that the hunter class does need a very small tweak. Nothing major but still a slight increase in DPS.

Certainly IMO Swift Bow, which was possibly the single most OP skill in MoM, Since the global reduction in weapon DPS I believe this skill could probably go back to 3x damage instead of ~2.5x damage. This alone may be enough extra DPS, it would certainly bring the skill back to the table for builds (though it would annoy people who have already started to change legacies on their LW).

If this still wasn’t enough then maybe give bow master set a slight increase in bonuses? Maybe an extra +5% to critical damage multiplier on ¾ from line?


Whatever as I say the class is ‘working’ but in fairness to balance maybe a slight ‘boost’

[Belechael]

The class is still playable, if you look at it without comparison. If you compare the hunter class to the rune keeper, then you suddenly start to realize how much you suck, be it dps, utility or a firm second class role.

I agree with this, but since the OP mentioned that "hunters do feel more lotro then rk", I suggest then to play a hunter and NOT a RK, even though the RK will probably make your gaming more fun.

[agoracy_]

I have always been a proponent of balance in the game, whether it be to boost or nerf a class I have been willing to take it on the chin.

As I see it a hunter is a very playable class, currently. Fun and challenging. From that point of view you could say that it is OK as it is. Pre book 7 I was convinced that the class was very OP and I stand by that. I also strongly believe that the changes in hunter DPS is ‘broadly correct’. However I do believe that they slightly overstepped the mark. Whether this was done politically or just an error in judgment I am not sure, but I do believe that the hunter class does need a very small tweak. Nothing major but still a slight increase in DPS.

Certainly IMO Swift Bow, which was possibly the single most OP skill in MoM, Since the global reduction in weapon DPS I believe this skill could probably go back to 3x damage instead of ~2.5x damage. This alone may be enough extra DPS, it would certainly bring the skill back to the table for builds (though it would annoy people who have already started to change legacies on their LW).

If this still wasn’t enough then maybe give bow master set a slight increase in bonuses? Maybe an extra +5% to critical damage multiplier on ¾ from line?


Whatever as I say the class is ‘working’ but in fairness to balance maybe a slight ‘boost’

Can I ask you something..? Why are you playing your hunter, and when do you use your hunter? Also, can you please tell us if hunter is your main and if you enjoy playing in groups? Just a question, no intention for trolling or something, but it seems most of the people think hunters are ok mostly because they go for soloing, and indeed, while soloing hunters are a very comfortable class... When it comes to grouping/raiding... That's a whole different story mate...

[Davout]

Can I ask you something..? Why are you playing your hunter, and when do you use your hunter? Also, can you please tell us if hunter is your main and if you enjoy playing in groups? Just a question, no intention for trolling or something, but it seems most of the people think hunters are ok mostly because they go for soloing, and indeed, while soloing hunters are a very comfortable class... When it comes to grouping/raiding... That's a whole different story mate...

Why do you play hunter? Do you like it? If not why play it?

Do you run instances virtually every night? Do you ever run raids for Watcher, Turtle or Rift? Have you ever run a raid in Ettens, for both Freep & Creep?

Do you have more than one class? Do you have a good understanding of most classes, their strengths, weakness's or what they bring to the table?

Are these sort of questions relevent?

My post asks for a slight improvement in DPS for hunter class. That is in line with my 'overall view' of all classes. My post is in line with the OP thread title.

I strongly suspect that as a result of our relative DPS OP (my view) in MoM that Turbine nerfed us a little too far. There is so much political wranglings on these boards it would not surprise me that Turbine knew that they would get a bullet in the neck no matter what changes they made, even if minor. As a result they decided to nerf hunter DPS a little more than necessary so that they could give a little back afterwards-just to look like they 'listen'. It is a common tactic. Expect a little loving in Book 8.

Hell yes people who played hunter in MoM pre Bk7 will feel that they have been nerfed massively. BUT when you are at the top of the stairs and you fall half way you doo feel it more than if you were 1 step up and fell just that 1 step. The OP was asking 'is it so bad?' I gave my reply, no its not but I would move a little back in the direction from were we came.

I enjoy playing my hunter and will enjoy playing it no matter what. If I ever decided that I couldnt enjoy it I would leave the game. But after 2 years in it I am still enjoying it immensely. Even with the changes.

[Flambergius]

The turtle is just as ideal an scenario for a RK or a hunter, and hunter should be better, that's the price for being able to do just 1 thing correctly.


The turtle is a good scenario for hunters, but for RKs it is the absolutely ideal scenario. Long, stationary, single-target fight with no breaks or complications and ample support from other classes. I would have no problems with them being a bit better dps there than hunters. The difference in performance right now, hugely in RKs' favour, would be disheartening if it was to be permanent. Interesting to see how turtle hunting goes after Book 8.

[Dragon from bruges]

thanks for all the input all. I had a lot of reading here. The oppinions are different. One thing i have to say: Rk is indeed a little faster (tested a bit myself). Is it an option for hunters to make some of the spells a little faster (less downtime) so at the end = more dps?

Just an idea :-)

For the rest: dont stop playing this great char!

[agoracy_]

thanks for all the input all. I had a lot of reading here. The oppinions are different. One thing i have to say: Rk is indeed a little faster (tested a bit myself). Is it an option for hunters to make some of the spells a little faster (less downtime) so at the end = more dps?

Just an idea :-)

For the rest: dont stop playing this great char!

well, we have needful haste, that will give you -25% attack speed for e certain amount of time...

[OMWiener]

Expect a little loving in Book 8.


I'm quite disappointed now :P

[Davout]

I'm quite disappointed now :P

Although I did say expect a little loving (I wasn't after much) even I am a little dissapointed.

But still lets do the Monty Python and 'look on the bright side of life'. It could be worse we could be guardians or burglars.

[Laralu]

I've played my hunter since launch, i've survived nerfs and enjoyed buffs. But never, NEVER have it been so boring as it is now.
When i made a hunter character i made it because i wanted to be the best ST damage dealer, but when MoM came out they introduced a new class that surpass my damage by far!
And by the looks of it, it is not gonna change much...so if i wanna be able to do the best ST damage once again i have to make a new character and level it to 60, grind traits etc etc. Imo the hunter is a dead class.:mad:

Though i hope some people still enjoy the hunter class (what shall the other classes do without their beloved taxi?) i've changed to playing a LM.

[Dragon from bruges]

I've played my hunter since launch, i've survived nerfs and enjoyed buffs. But never, NEVER have it been so boring as it is now.
When i made a hunter character i made it because i wanted to be the best ST damage dealer, but when MoM came out they introduced a new class that surpass my damage by far!
And by the looks of it, it is not gonna change much...so if i wanna be able to do the best ST damage once again i have to make a new character and level it to 60, grind traits etc etc. Imo the hunter is a dead class.:mad:

Though i hope some people still enjoy the hunter class (what shall the other classes do without their beloved taxi?) i've changed to playing a LM.
I still think the hunter is fun.... but thats because i started after the nerf i think. But i also play a lot of other chars. They all have the ups and downs. My LM starts to be usefull at lvl 21 now. My warden kicks some *** at the same lvl, my cap lvl 30 is awesome in groups and my rk is the fastest lvler atm but just started him lvl 15. And has to say that rk is more fun than mini for me... lvled them to lvl 15 and the dps for rk is realy good. I now will try them out in the first dungeons to see what they offer in healing. But mini is boring, or maybe its the hobbit starterarea who is more difficult then the others for me. (a lot of running) I like the whole idea of the instruments but there is no much variation for the dps side. Now i'm curious about the healing part.

[Emli]

And by the looks of it, it is not gonna change much...so if i wanna be able to do the best ST damage once again i have to make a new character and level it to 60, grind traits etc etc. Imo the hunter is a dead class.:mad:


/facepalm

Did you even look at the patch-notes? You whiney hunters got the champs, RK's (and to some extent MNS) nerfed to oblivion and you still want more? Champs getting 30% less healing in their DPS stance, MNS dps legacys lowered by a third and RK power consumption raised to absolutely redicolous levels (raised the power consumption roughly by 40% AND DEcreased the damage on highest DPS fire skills, which according to calculations mean that a WELL geared RK who is chugging power pots will be out of power in under 2 minutes and that's supposed to be the "power efficient group DPS line").

What more do you want? RK's critting for 3's and devastating for 4's?

[Lenin_]

/facepalm

Did you even look at the patch-notes? You whiney hunters got the champs, RK's (and to some extent MNS) nerfed to oblivion and you still want more? Champs getting 30% less healing in their DPS stance, MNS dps legacys lowered by a third and RK power consumption raised to absolutely redicolous levels (raised the power consumption roughly by 40% AND DEcreased the damage on highest DPS fire skills, which according to calculations mean that a WELL geared RK who is chugging power pots will be out of power in under 2 minutes and that's supposed to be the "power efficient group DPS line").

What more do you want? RK's critting for 3's and devastating for 4's?

YESHH WE DID IT!!

/facepalm

[Eikinskialdi]

/facepalm

Did you even look at the patch-notes? You whiney hunters got the champs, RK's (and to some extent MNS) nerfed to oblivion and you still want more? Champs getting 30% less healing in their DPS stance, MNS dps legacys lowered by a third and RK power consumption raised to absolutely redicolous levels (raised the power consumption roughly by 40% AND DEcreased the damage on highest DPS fire skills, which according to calculations mean that a WELL geared RK who is chugging power pots will be out of power in under 2 minutes and that's supposed to be the "power efficient group DPS line").

What more do you want? RK's critting for 3's and devastating for 4's?

RK's deserve it 100% we shouldnt be outdmged by a lorebreaking batterybox and mins were buffed too much with the tactical they can take it. Also champs is not really fair but its what the developers wants.

ALso I want my ST crown back hunters shouldnt be outdmged by classes who have another usefull roll and we only have one and thats dps.

[Telaron70]

/facepalm

Did you even look at the patch-notes? You whiney hunters got the champs, RK's (and to some extent MNS) nerfed to oblivion and you still want more?

Are you for real? There are very few posts that asked for anyone to be nerfed. All that 95% of Hunter's asked was that we got some of our skills unnerfed. Which according to the patch notes has not happened. So hardly influential hey?

Incredible

[nightbyday]

Are you for real? There are very few posts that asked for anyone to be nerfed. All that 95% of Hunter's asked was that we got some of our skills unnerfed. Which according to the patch notes has not happened. So hardly influential hey?

Incredible

So True. The majority of hunters just want the third shot on ISB set to that equal of a auto shot or ISB removed (as it personally i would have never bought it) and righteous bow restored to its normal.

By the way since when has a reduction in healing been a reduction in DPS? #cougth# if a minstrel wants to dps the get penalised on their healing ;P . Minstrels needed that legacy reduction, when book7 came out i went out and leveled a 'DPS' weapon, when it hit 20% the output was ok, now it has 30% i feel the dps is a bit too strong and i know a 1st age will take me 32% and lothlorien bag pipes critted will add another 2%, cap at 20% might be a little to much though, but we will see. As for Rks power consuption, well sorry but DEV is doing that to all classes, there is not one class now that is not bothered about power and RK's top end crit damage was a bit insane.

I do genuinly feel sorry for champs not because of the 'nerf' but because they would have spent a lot of time on builds for items/weapons/armour and traits and now it is all 'ruined' just like what happened to hunters (legacy point refund system needed here).

[Belegathon]

So True. The majority of hunters just want the third shot on ISB set to that equal of a auto shot or ISB removed (as it personally i would have never bought it) and righteous bow restored to its normal.

By the way since when has a reduction in healing been a reduction in DPS? #cougth# if a minstrel wants to dps the get penalised on their healing ;P . Minstrels needed that legacy reduction, when book7 came out i went out and leveled a 'DPS' weapon, when it hit 20% the output was ok, now it has 30% i feel the dps is a bit too strong and i know a 1st age will take me 32% and lothlorien bag pipes critted will add another 2%, cap at 20% might be a little to much though, but we will see. As for Rks power consuption, well sorry but DEV is doing that to all classes, there is not one class now that is not bothered about power and RK's top end crit damage was a bit insane.

I do genuinly feel sorry for champs not because of the 'nerf' but because they would have spent a lot of time on builds for items/weapons/armour and traits and now it is all 'ruined' just like what happened to hunters (legacy point refund system needed here).

Agreed, I ve been playing since a month after launch and the recent hunter nerf is the biggest any class has had to deal with hands down, the changes to Champos and RKs doesn't even come close, although they, like us, have a right to be annoyed, especially champos imo, just not as annoyed as us! ;)

[Silmahad]

The socalled nerf to RKs is nothing more as a little annoyance. The crit magnitude gets nerfed, but base damage increased, and a nerf to power consumption (welcome in the Hunter's world btw).

Resumee: There is a wall of text in the RK B8 patchnotes, which implies a brutal nerf, that isn't there in fact.

The DPS gap between hunter and RK will still exist. The RKs will further outdamage us in precision, kite the Boss around in the 16. Hall not dependend on inductions, doing damage on the move, while his runestone ticks at his feet and we will still be waiting for a viable secondary role, until our ToF tratline at last will get a fix and at last there will maybe exist some content who really needs CC.

so no breaking news...

I guess the first RKs of some Turbine Developers arrived at lvl 60, its hard to nerf the own toy.

[Scatha the Worm]

Did you even look at the patch-notes? You whiney hunters got the champs, RK's (and to some extent MNS) nerfed to oblivion and you still want more?
Is that your interpretation of the devs motivation? Look at the official feedback of hunter claims over the US Forums: "working as intended", "provide more data", "maybe just minor adjustments"... They are just continuing easymode on the new "content trivializing classes".
Champs getting 30% less healing in their DPS stance, MNS dps legacys lowered by a third and RK power consumption raised to absolutely redicolous levels.
The Champ Controlled Burn nerf is complete BS, the Fervour nerf is the result of must-have legacies such as Fervour Damage and AoE Damage, and reduced survivability impact through BPE. The Fervour nerf I understand though I do not agree with.
The RK nerf... maybe they overdid it (I can't really say since I know very little about its skills and mechanics), but it has its true basis, just as the hunter nerf had its basis in its time but was overdone by a lot: just that as we have all been saying A LOT of times, LI DPS nerf was probably enough.
BTW, Minstrels... whatever. They hit far too much for a pure healer class, making soloing with them faster, easier, and less brainier than with DPS classes. Go ask champs, not hunters.
Absolutely ridiculous power cost increases... want to hear a cruel story of legends about book 11? (was that the one?) And we still did ok, though kind of dull in a way, up to book 14.
(raised the power consumption roughly by 40% AND DEcreased the damage on highest DPS fire skills, which according to calculations mean that a WELL geared RK who is chugging power pots will be out of power in under 2 minutes and that's supposed to be the "power efficient group DPS line")

Try doing full DPS in Stance: Precision with as mad ICPR stacking as you can imagine (950 ICPR would be about it). You will last about those 2 minutes. And even then we still can't reach RKs total DPS numbers.

If RKs are getting nerfed it's not because we asked for it. Worst case scenario, you got nerfed, but you are still too close to our damage. Best case scenario, you now need group support, just as everyone else, to perform you group role succesfully, and still be outdamaging precision hunters.

What more do you want? RK's critting for 3's and devastating for 4's?

Is that supposed to provoke sympathy?

[Emli]

The socalled nerf to RKs is nothing more as a little annoyance. The crit magnitude gets nerfed, but base damage increased, and a nerf to power consumption (welcome in the Hunter's world btw).

Resumee: There is a wall of text in the RK B8 patchnotes, which implies a brutal nerf, that isn't there in fact.

The DPS gap between hunter and RK will still exist. The RKs will further outdamage us in precision, kite the Boss around in the 16. Hall not dependend on inductions, doing damage on the move, while his runestone ticks at his feet and we will still be waiting for a viable secondary role, until our ToF tratline at last will get a fix and at last there will maybe exist some content who really needs CC.

so no breaking news...

I guess the first RKs of some Turbine Developers arrived at lvl 60, its hard to nerf the own toy.

Guess you can call b7 for hunters a "little annoyance" aswell then.

The crit damage does get decreased (for all skills) but the base damage does not increase (Only does for EC, but the skill is being hammered by nerfs from the traits, so overall dps of the skill goes wayyyy down).

The power consumption increase reduces our time of sustainable dps by 80%. And unlike hunters who can still continue auto-attacking for some damage, RK's can only beg the LM's to spare them some power (which they won't get as DPS is last on the power sharing chain and the power would be burnt through in seconds anyway) as RK's don't have an auto-attack.

It isn't a brutal nerf, it's something worse.

Yep, the gap will exist, a gap between a RK standing around and begging the LM for power vs. a hunter shooting things with a bow is pretty big.
Why exactly should a RK kite around the boss in 16 btw? For entertainment purposes when the boss finally catches the RK and the RK goes splat?
And our runestone ticking at our feet... Contrary to popular belief it is not an equivalent of Fellowship's heart, the healing it provides is around 13 morale every second (possibly a few points higher if you are stacked with +inc heal gear).

[agoracy_]

Guess you can call b7 for hunters a "little annoyance" aswell then.

The crit damage does get decreased (for all skills) but the base damage does not increase (Only does for EC, but the skill is being hammered by nerfs from the traits, so overall dps of the skill goes wayyyy down).

The power consumption increase reduces our time of sustainable dps by 80%. And unlike hunters who can still continue auto-attacking for some damage, RK's can only beg the LM's to spare them some power (which they won't get as DPS is last on the power sharing chain and the power would be burnt through in seconds anyway) as RK's don't have an auto-attack.

It isn't a brutal nerf, it's something worse.

Yep, the gap will exist, a gap between a RK standing around and begging the LM for power vs. a hunter shooting things with a bow is pretty big.
Why exactly should a RK kite around the boss in 16 btw? For entertainment purposes when the boss finally catches the RK and the RK goes splat?
And our runestone ticking at our feet... Contrary to popular belief it is not an equivalent of Fellowship's heart, the healing it provides is around 13 morale every second (possibly a few points higher if you are stacked with +inc heal gear).

Listen mate, you come to our forums and troll all the way around like we were in the dev team that transformed RK-ers into something useless (wait for the changes to come live and we can discuss more about that after)... Really now, what's your point?

You speak to us like we were asking for a RK nerf and we are responsable for it. We all know that RK-ers are over hunters regarding DPS (I have noticed by myself, although I am not an expert yet), it's not a fact we have come up with, it's the reality we face on all servers... I've said for a couple of times that the game is unbalanced, but never sugested a nerf on another class just because we feel that way. Take a look on the content, there are obviously a lot of flaws and they are trying to fix them by making adjustements to the classes. And if we take into consideration creep whiners, what do we get as result? Some major changes from one update to another, not enough testing and a lot of unsatisfied players (all classes).

Why not just wait for the update to come up live, do some testing and speak after that. Just reading some notes (that are not finalized yet) and flaming around after that won't help.

Btw, you speak like there is an apocalypse coming for RK-ers... TBH, I seriously doubt your sayings:
The power consumption increase reduces our time of sustainable dps by 80%.

I wish you roll a hunter, get some reasonable ICPR and with all these, try to resist in the long fights without getting out of power. Luckily, I have my own personal power giver, as I have been inspired and told my GF to roll a lore master. So please, quit whining, will ya? There is not yet the end of the world for RKers, really!

Try to be straight and tell us what do you want from your class, I know what I want for myself. Rather some versatility (improved CC) or give back our DPS no1 position, because this is what we are supposed to do, kill things fast, or make them suffer in heavily long fights in a way Tolkien related in his books.

[Emli]

Listen mate, you come to our forums and troll all the way around like we were in the dev team that transformed RK-ers into something useless (wait for the changes to come live and we can discuss more about that after)... Really now, what's your point?

You speak to us like we were asking for a RK nerf and we are responsable for it. We all know that RK-ers are over hunters regarding DPS (I have noticed by myself, although I am not an expert yet), it's not a fact we have come up with, it's the reality we face on all servers... I've said for a couple of times that the game is unbalanced, but never sugested a nerf on another class just because we feel that way. Take a look on the content, there are obviously a lot of flaws and they are trying to fix them by making adjustements to the classes. And if we take into consideration creep whiners, what do we get as result? Some major changes from one update to another, not enough testing and a lot of unsatisfied players (all classes).

Why not just wait for the update to come up live, do some testing and speak after that. Just reading some notes (that are not finalized yet) and flaming around after that won't help.

Btw, you speak like there is an apocalypse coming for RK-ers... TBH, I seriously doubt your sayings:
.

I wish you roll a hunter, get some reasonable ICPR and with all these, try to resist in the long fights without getting out of power. Luckily, I have my own personal power giver, as I have been inspired and told my GF to roll a lore master. So please, quit whining, will ya? There is not yet the end of the world for RKers, really!

Try to be straight and tell us what do you want from your class, I know what I want for myself. Rather some versatility (improved CC) or give back our DPS no1 position, because this is what we are supposed to do, kill things fast, or make them suffer in heavily long fights in a way Tolkien related in his books.

My post was in response to someone who clearly said that the hunter problems are coming from the new class (RK) that is crazy overpowered and in his opinion they didn't nerf RK's enough. My response may have come off a bit harsh but it was true, most of the posts in the RK forums past b7 were not from RK's but hunters saying how RK's are doing 3x more damage than them. Believe it or not, buf if that amount of whine is all over the forums then the DEV's WILL be influenced by it.

The worst part was that it wasn't even true, most of the hunters just jumped on the bandwagon after seeing a few pictures of high crits (same thing that got the hunters nerfed) , actual parsings of damage per second between RK's and hunter were pretty even, sometimes the RK being on top and sometimes the hunter, depending on the situation as the way RK's and hunters deal damage is very different.

Also the changes already are live on the Bullroarer test server, that's where the information is coming from and it's looking baaaad.

Yes, hunters also have power problems, but that's balanced by the fact that they can swap targets without their DPS taking a hit, a RK can not do that, (talking about the fire RK, the lightning RK already has it the same as the hunter now and that's fine by me) making the RK in instances a 1 trick pony, just boss DPS because on trash mobs fire is useless. If they remove that one advantage of the fire line, the better power management, then what is the use in ever going Fire?

Again, this post was not directed at all hunters but to the likes who trolled the forums making up stuff about the supposedly god-mode RK's.

[Silmahad]

My post was in response to someone who clearly said that the hunter problems are coming from the new class (RK) that is crazy overpowered and in his opinion they didn't nerf RK's enough. My response may have come off a bit harsh but it was true, most of the posts in the RK forums past b7 were not from RK's but hunters saying how RK's are doing 3x more damage than them. Believe it or not, buf if that amount of whine is all over the forums then the DEV's WILL be influenced by it.

The worst part was that it wasn't even true, most of the hunters just jumped on the bandwagon after seeing a few pictures of high crits (same thing that got the hunters nerfed) , actual parsings of damage per second between RK's and hunter were pretty even, sometimes the RK being on top and sometimes the hunter, depending on the situation as the way RK's and hunters deal damage is very different.

Also the changes already are live on the Bullroarer test server, that's where the information is coming from and it's looking baaaad.

Yes, hunters also have power problems, but that's balanced by the fact that they can swap targets without their DPS taking a hit, a RK can not do that, (talking about the fire RK, the lightning RK already has it the same as the hunter now and that's fine by me) making the RK in instances a 1 trick pony, just boss DPS because on trash mobs fire is useless. If they remove that one advantage of the fire line, the better power management, then what is the use in ever going Fire?

Again, this post was not directed at all hunters but to the likes who trolled the forums making up stuff about the supposedly god-mode RK's.


They aren't doeing 3 x more damage as a hunter, but they do more than a hunter in precision and maybe less than a hunter in S:S but this "less" at much more sustainability.

And, to say it again, I am not interested in burst dps, crit magnitudes and such irrelevant Etten stuff, just sustainable dps.

My second point is, that your secondary class role is much more usefull in the actual content, as our socalled secondary class role.

I would have liked a buff to my improved Swift Bow, Turbine decided to give us nothing and nerf RKs, bad luck. I am pretty sure you all will circumvent the power issues by icpr gear, proper relicts, Celebrant Pots, boosting fate (welcome in the hunters world of gear research, again) and you will still be able to do the same dps, aka more than a hunter in S:P.

You maybe will lose morale, as a consequence of the adaptions in gear (as hunters do). Well, I am already fed up of socalled "glasscannon-RKs", I then watch tanking, kiting and killing Elitemobs in instances for their own, like an offtank.

So the socalled nerf changed nothing.

[Emli]

They aren't doeing 3 x more damage as a hunter, but they do more than a hunter in precision and maybe less than a hunter in S:S but this "less" at much more sustainability.

And, to say it again, I am not interested in burst dps, crit magnitudes and such irrelevant Etten stuff, just sustainable dps.

My second point is, that your secondary class role is much more usefull in the actual content, as our socalled secondary class role.

I would have liked a buff to my improved Swift Bow, Turbine decided to give us nothing and nerf RKs, bad luck. I am pretty sure you all will circumvent the power issues by icpr gear, proper relicts, Celebrant Pots, boosting fate (welcome in the hunters world of gear research, again) and you will still be able to do the same dps, aka more than a hunter in S:P.

You maybe will lose morale, as a consequence of the adaptions in gear (as hunters do). Well, I am already fed up of socalled "glasscannon-RKs", I then watch tanking, kiting and killing Elitemobs in instances for their own, like an offtank.

So the socalled nerf changed nothing.

The nerf did change something, it changed a lot. RK's were already gearing heavily towards ICPR and fate to deal with the power costs, increasing them by so much will destroy any sustainability at all, the 2-3 minutes of damage will only be possible for THE BEST GEARED RK's in the game with the luckiest legacys burning through as many consumables as cooldowns allow.

The higher sustainability comes at a cost of just being able to DPS 1 target and starting up on another one taking too long to be effective on less than boss mobs. Now the advantage of sustainability is gone a RK will have nothing left to be worth taking as DPS, as what use is high DPS if you can only use it for a minute or two and only in a boss fight.

A hunter on low power can include more auto-attacks in his rotation and use more power friendly attacks to preserve some power at the cost of some DPS. A RK works on DoT's though which are dependant on eachother, if you don't have enough power to keep up Writ of Fire you won't be able to fire off Essence of Flame (both of which had their DPS lowered by 10% btw, so our DPS is not being cut by just power usage, there is a lot of stealth nerfs that didn't make it to the patch notes.) and if you add to that the lack of auto-attack you have a RK that is incapable of doing damage.

Of course, a RK's secondary role of healing is very usefull, but only if the RK goes in to the fight as a healer, not as DPS-er. RK isn't a traditional hybrid, who can DPS and do some spot heals when needed, that is the role of the captain who is much better at it. A captain DPS-es and when he sees someone needing a heal he just throws the heal and continues with the DPS. A RK on the other hand will need to use his neutral attunement skills which use a lot of power (like we have any to spare after b8...) to get to healing attunement then throw the heal and then use the legendary to get back to neutral again, build up to DPS attunement and start building up his DoT's again, all that while the DPS of the group suffers. The RK is much more effective for the group just using 1 role. The concept of RK is more like 2 classes (a bit gimped for balance) in 1 that you can swap by going to the bard instead of logging in another character.

And RK's are in no way good tanks, it's the game that is too easy that allows non-tank classes to survive against those elite-mobs. Hunters can do even better, they can still tank the watcher, the biggest baddie in the game, even after book 7.

[mYhero]

uff, where to start :(

The nerf did change something, it changed a lot. RK's were already gearing heavily towards ICPR and fate to deal with the power costs, increasing them by so much will destroy any sustainability at all, the 2-3 minutes of damage will only be possible for THE BEST GEARED RK's in the game with the luckiest legacys burning through as many consumables as cooldowns allow.
Welcome to a hunters world. :D

A hunter on low power can include more auto-attacks in his rotation and use more power friendly attacks to preserve some power at the cost of some DPS. A RK works on DoT's though which are dependant on eachother, if you don't have enough power to keep up Writ of Fire you won't be able to fire off Essence of Flame (both of which had their DPS lowered by 10% btw, so our DPS is not being cut by just power usage, there is a lot of stealth nerfs that didn't make it to the patch notes.) and if you add to that the lack of auto-attack you have a RK that is incapable of doing damage.

What is excatly your point? If i choose to spam quickshot instead of a full rotation cause i'm low on power i lower my dps, same for a 1 skill dotting RK who is low on Power. There is no difference, you also have auto attacks. Besides you can always zap in a lightning wich does equal dmg to our Quickshot at even lower Powercosts. Don't be ridiculous.

RKs still end up with way more ICPR and Max Power than any hunter could wish for.

Don't get me wrong, i don't ask for a RK nerf. You're just overacting.

[OMWiener]

And RK's are in no way good tanks, it's the game that is too easy that allows non-tank classes to survive against those elite-mobs. Hunters can do even better, they can still tank the watcher, the biggest baddie in the game, even after book 7.

And that's a bug/exploit ;)

[Emli]

uff, where to start :(


Welcome to a hunters world. :D



What is excatly your point? If i choose to spam quickshot instead of a full rotation cause i'm low on power i lower my dps, same for a 1 skill dotting RK who is low on Power. There is no difference, you also have auto attacks. Besides you can always zap in a lightning wich does equal dmg to our Quickshot at even lower Powercosts. Don't be ridiculous.

RKs still end up with way more ICPR and Max Power than any hunter could wish for.

Don't get me wrong, i don't ask for a RK nerf. You're just overacting.

My point is that RK DPS doesn't work the way you described, RK Dot's are dependant on each other, just spamming one doesn't work as RK DoT's build on eachother and if you can't keep one up they all fail. It is not nearly as effective as a hunter doing quickshot and auto attacks and no, we do not have an auto attack. RK's are ranged DPS but our "auto-attack" unlike the one of a hunter is meleeing a mob with two rocks in our hands, needless to say it does close to no damage as the RK was never designed to be hitting mobs in melee so no points go in the DPS of a rock (wasting points on rock DPS would make us lose out on the legacys which are absolutely vital for a RK).

Also zapping in a lightning when possible would mean we could never restore any power to be able to do another fire skill, so we would acctually be using lightning while fire specced, which would be very inefficient.

I also doubt that quickshot does less damage and costs more power than a lightning skill from a RK. If i remember correctly then the lowest cost skill of a RK is ceaseless arguement at 44 power and after b8 it will be doing under 200 damage. also quickshot is used in combination with an auto-attack, something a RK does not have.

Yes, hunters probably will always have less power and ICPR but I also doubt that hunters have skills that will cost 378 or 284 power in their rotations, with the main spamming skill being at 122 power.

[OMWiener]

Yes, hunters probably will always have less power and ICPR but I also doubt that hunters have skills that will cost 378 or 284 power in their rotations, with the main spamming skill being at 122 power.

No our main spamming skill costs 149 power ;)

Stating those power numbers doesn't say anything. Hypothetical example: I could be using a skill that only cost 50 power and still consume more power then someone using a skill that cost 200 power.

I'm sorry but stating things like this does not help your argument at all! You're deliberatly leaving out information to back up your argument. Using a skill that consumes 378 power doesn't say a thing. Now i understand that the RK makes some sacrifices for fire damage (dots, single target, not being able to switch fast, etc...), but in the end i think the devs thought it favoured fire spec too much (similar for hunters where MoM favoured bowmaster too much). After B7 hunter had to go for hybrid solutions. I guess the RK will carefully have to think about the trade-offs as well and i guess that is ZCs intention.

[OMWiener]

Also zapping in a lightning when possible would mean we could never restore any power to be able to do another fire skill, so we would acctually be using lightning while fire specced, which would be very inefficient.
.

And you think spamming quickshot or auto-attacks are efficient? Surely an RK has low power lightning skills that they can use in between to regen some power....

[Emli]

No our main spamming skill costs 149 power ;)

Stating those power numbers doesn't say anything. Hypothetical example: I could be using a skill that only cost 50 power and still consume more power then someone using a skill that cost 200 power.

I'm sorry but stating things like this does not help your argument at all! You're deliberatly leaving out information to back up your argument. Using a skill that consumes 378 power doesn't say a thing. Now i understand that the RK makes some sacrifices for fire damage (dots, single target, not being able to switch fast, etc...), but in the end i think the devs thought it favoured fire spec too much (similar for hunters where MoM favoured bowmaster too much). After B7 hunter had to go for hybrid solutions. I guess the RK will carefully have to think about the trade-offs as well and i guess that is ZCs intention.

Is that ISB that you mean? That's not really a spamming skill though as it has a 10 sec CD. By our spam skill I mean something that is constantly spammed when other skills are on cooldown, Fiery Ridicule has no cooldown at all and costs 122 power making it a complete power hog, I think quickshot would be a better comparison here (although yes, RK's and hunters can't be directly compared).

And I can give you more information if you want. The 378 power skill is Smouldering wrath (used once a minute, so drains a lot of power) and Essence of Flame costs 284 power (used 3 times in a 1 minute rotation so is also a huge power drain). Add to that the no cooldown spam skill Fiery ridicule at 122 power that is used whenever the other skills are on cooldown, I doubt any other classes have so high power consumption skills in their regular rotation so often.

Fire DPS wasn't favoured at all in b7, this is the whole reason people see the nerf to the fire line so unjust. Fire DPS benefitted from none of the +tactical damage% items in the game including adamant get of dreams, the item scrolls, tactical scrolls. A lightning RK got the full bonuses (+20% tactical damage) while the fire RK got nothing cause of the items not working on DoT damage ( A BUG THAT STILL ISN'T GETTING FIXED IN BOOK 8!), add to that the mobility and possibility to swap targets and the lightning RK was already more favoured. Now to top it off they have decided to make fire an even worse option, forcing the RK's to go lightning and get carpal tunnel from spamming the freaking lightning skills.
That's what's wrong with the nerf, I couldn't care less about the lightning line being hammered, that's supposed to be the solo line.

And yes, spamming quickshot with auto-attacks is far more efficient, it does more damage at the cost of less power and using the lightning skills wouldn't help at all with trying to keep up the DoT's which is the main damage dealer in that line.

[Patas]

Just my opinion. First Rk have 2 primary roles (afaik not with the same trait line), hunter has one primary role and one secondary. This is what has always been said about RK so correct me if i am wrong...

Secondly, dot based dmg, if there are 2 bosses to be taken down, wouldn t dotting both work better than to focus on one. If that is true Rk could shine in these type of scenarios, champions in aoe and hunters in single target dmg. Also how good is rk aoe compared to champions and hunters?

Due to the nature of RK i think if they can do comparable and competitive dps with a champion and hunter it should be fine, but in my opinion these 2 classes should have a slight advantage. If it was up to me, for single target, hunter, rk, champions and for aoe champions,rk, hunter in this order.

[OMWiener]

Is that ISB that you mean? That's not really a spamming skill though as it has a 10 sec CD. By our spam skill I mean something that is constantly spammed when other skills are on cooldown, Fiery Ridicule has no cooldown at all and costs 122 power making it a complete power hog, I think quickshot would be a better comparison here (although yes, RK's and hunters can't be directly compared).

And I can give you more information if you want. The 378 power skill is Smouldering wrath (used once a minute, so drains a lot of power) and Essence of Flame costs 284 power (used 3 times in a 1 minute rotation so is also a huge power drain). Add to that the no cooldown spam skill Fiery ridicule at 122 power that is used whenever the other skills are on cooldown, I doubt any other classes have so high power consumption skills in their regular rotation so often.

Fire DPS wasn't favoured at all in b7, this is the whole reason people see the nerf to the fire line so unjust. Fire DPS benefitted from none of the +tactical damage% items in the game including adamant get of dreams, the item scrolls, tactical scrolls. A lightning RK got the full bonuses (+20% tactical damage) while the fire RK got nothing cause of the items not working on DoT damage ( A BUG THAT STILL ISN'T GETTING FIXED IN BOOK 8!), add to that the mobility and possibility to swap targets and the lightning RK was already more favoured. Now to top it off they have decided to make fire an even worse option, forcing the RK's to go lightning and get carpal tunnel from spamming the freaking lightning skills.
That's what's wrong with the nerf, I couldn't care less about the lightning line being hammered, that's supposed to be the solo line.

And yes, spamming quickshot with auto-attacks is far more efficient, it does more damage at the cost of less power and using the lightning skills wouldn't help at all with trying to keep up the DoT's which is the main damage dealer in that line.

I mean penetrating shot which is used about 10-15 times during a minute and costs 149 power ;).

I never said spamming quick shot was equally ineffecient. I realise you need to uphold your dots. All i said was that we have to resort to ineffecient ways as well to save power. How ineffecient is quite irrelevant (imo). The problem was that a good-geared fire RK could do massive damage without having troubles with power. Time will tell if the changes were too much (hunters changes were too much as well, but they didn't give us a bone :( ) and hopefulyl will get tweaked if so, but changes were needed (imo)

[mYhero]

My point is that RK DPS doesn't work the way you described, RK Dot's are dependant on each other, just spamming one doesn't work as RK DoT's build on eachother and if you can't keep one up they all fail.

And what is exactly you want? A Hunter spamin' quicks doesn't deal his full dmg potential due to power issues. Neither does a RK spamin' his A0/3 Lightning.
Both Regen Power just spamming it while waiting for Power / Pot / ...
You're being delusional jealousy here.


It is not nearly as effective as a hunter doing quickshot and auto attacks and no, we do not have an auto attack. RK's are ranged DPS but our "auto-attack" unlike the one of a hunter is meleeing a mob with two rocks in our hands, needless to say it does close to no damage as the RK was never designed to be hitting mobs in melee

We're talking about having low / No Power. You have the choice to get into melee and pour free additional melee dmg + a A1 fire skill OR you SPAM your cheap lightning skills. Both are at LEAST as efficent as spamin' Quicks for a Hunter. If you don't want to get into melee, that's a different story. It's not like you have to. Heck i gladly trade my quickshot for a zero induction cheap spam skill wich i could use on the run.

Yeah some RK skills are more Power excessive than most of the Hunter skillset. Still you got way more ICPR + MAX Power than any hunter. Your spamable lightning skills are even cheaper than a Quickshoot.
What are you exactly asking for? Not to run out of power? Get reasonable.:confused:

[Emli]

And what is exactly you want? A Hunter spamin' quicks doesn't deal his full dmg potential due to power issues. Neither does a RK spamin' his A0/3 Lightning.
Both Regen Power just spamming it while waiting for Power / Pot / ...
You're being delusional jealousy here.



We're talking about having low / No Power. You have the choice to get into melee and pour free additional melee dmg + a A1 fire skill OR you SPAM your cheap lightning skills. Both are at LEAST as efficent as spamin' Quicks for a Hunter. If you don't want to get into melee, that's a different story. It's not like you have to. Heck i gladly trade my quickshot for a zero induction cheap spam skill wich i could use on the run.

Yeah some RK skills are more Power excessive than most of the Hunter skillset. Still you got way more ICPR + MAX Power than any hunter. Your spamable lightning skills are even cheaper than a Quickshoot.
What are you exactly asking for? Not to run out of power? Get reasonable.:confused:

Even if a RK does get into melee (which means taking hits by Mob AOE's as the squishiest class, and causing lots of trouble for the healer) the auto-attack damage will be FAR lower than the bow auto-attack from the hunter, if the auto-attack damage from a RK was acctually worth going into melee you would see a lot more RK's doing it already. I know that hunters also don't reach their full DPS potential at low power but they are a heck of a lot closer to it than RK's.

Also why does everyone think RK's have those uber cheap lightning skills to spam that cost close to no power? NONE of our attacks are cheaper than quickshot and those power costs are being raised by 10% aswell in book 8. And even though our cheapest skill being 20% more costly than quickshot, it still does less damage even if you combine it with going into melee as a RK (bad idea) than a quickshot with an auto-attack. And if you want a zero induction spam skill which is usable on the move, which is NOT cheaper than quickshot ( why is being able to cast it on a move an advantage in a group setting? ), I would gladly trade it for a ranged auto-attack with decent damage at no power cost at all.

No, not some of our skills are more power costly than a hunter, the vast majority are and by a lot, the 40-45% power increase across the board is too big to be balanced out by our higher ICPR. The fire line advantage was SUPPOSED to be the better power management, as it has serious limitations in it's usage.

[Emli]

Just my opinion. First Rk have 2 primary roles (afaik not with the same trait line), hunter has one primary role and one secondary. This is what has always been said about RK so correct me if i am wrong...

Secondly, dot based dmg, if there are 2 bosses to be taken down, wouldn t dotting both work better than to focus on one. If that is true Rk could shine in these type of scenarios, champions in aoe and hunters in single target dmg. Also how good is rk aoe compared to champions and hunters?

Due to the nature of RK i think if they can do comparable and competitive dps with a champion and hunter it should be fine, but in my opinion these 2 classes should have a slight advantage. If it was up to me, for single target, hunter, rk, champions and for aoe champions,rk, hunter in this order.

Yes, that's correct, RK's do have 2 primary roles, but a hunter can use their primary and secondary role at the same time ( For example root pulls, traps etc.), which combined with the squishyness of RK's should balance it.

And DoT based damage, in theory building DoT's on both would work but in practise it doesn't. RK's only have 1 DoT with long enough duration/short enough CD that could be cast on 2 mobs and that's quite a weak one. Also to maintain the around 50 DPS DoT on the secondary mob you reduce the amount of Fiery Ridicule's casts on the original mob (the biggest source of RK damage), so the amount of damage added, if any, would be very small + it takes more power, adding to the huge power problems in book 8.

RK AoE capability is pretty rubbish, it does have a few AoE attacks but they are tied with debuffs, so they have HUGE power costs and the debuffs themselves aren't something to write home about, so hardly any RK's use these skills in their rotation.

I also agree on what the order for single target and AOE damage dealers should be, unfortunately on ST the order right now is the other way round. Sustained ST damage is currently being ruled by champs with RK's and HNT's close behind. And although AoE is ruled by champs as it should, the second and third are not hunters or RK's but LM's and GRD's. There's lots of balancing to be done for Turbine.

[Telaron70]

oops sorry... seems i've accidentally strayed into the RK forum :confused:

[Davout]

Even if a RK does get into melee (which means taking hits by Mob AOE's as the squishiest class, and causing lots of trouble for the healer) the auto-attack damage will be FAR lower than the bow auto-attack from the hunter, if the auto-attack damage from a RK was acctually worth going into melee you would see a lot more RK's doing it already.

Are RK's squishier than LM's? And yet LM's go into melee to increase their DPS.

On the subject of projected damage what is the autoattack DPS of a L60 1st age runestone compared with the autoattack DPS of a 1st age L60 bow?

[Emli]

Are RK's squishier than LM's? And yet LM's go into melee to increase their DPS.

On the subject of projected damage what is the autoattack DPS of a L60 1st age runestone compared with the autoattack DPS of a 1st age L60 bow?

Yes, RK's are squishier than LM's, they have lower morale and no pet for flank heals. And LM's go into melee to increase their DPS because they acctually have a melee attack skill (staff strike that does great damage) + Staff AND sword which means nice DPS from auto-attacks.


L60 1st age runestone is 42.7 DPS 2.5 speed and 90-123 damage. (Usable in melee only so extra trouble for healers)
L59 1st age hunter's crossbow (couldn't find a picture of a L60 one, the damage on that would be higher) 57.5 DPS 2.6 speed and 127-172 damage. (Fired away at range)

[Davout]

Yes, RK's are squishier than LM's, they have lower morale and no pet for flank heals. And LM's go into melee to increase their DPS because they acctually have a melee attack skill (staff strike that does great damage) + Staff AND sword which means nice DPS from auto-attacks.


L60 1st age runestone is 42.7 DPS 2.5 speed and 90-123 damage. (Usable in melee only so extra trouble for healers)
L59 1st age hunter's crossbow (couldn't find a picture of a L60 one, the damage on that would be higher) 57.5 DPS 2.6 speed and 127-172 damage. (Fired away at range)


You choose to play a certain way, now you need to learn how to adapt. A RK L60 stone from what I see starts at 45DPS, when you pump points into DPS it goes up, but to what I am unsure. If you are going to show stats please state like for like, ie maxed run and maxed bow or please dont post.

Many LM do not bother entering into melee range. Some do to increase their DPS. If you want to increase your DPS when low on power you need to rethink yourplaystyle to maximise it. Stop whining about other classes and play the one you have. If you run out of power then go melee. If the mob does AoE then attacking from behind often helps. There are ways that all classes can increase their DPS when out of power you need to think of ways to achieve it. If you think a hunter is a better class then please role one and play that class. No point oplaying a class that you are not happy with!

[Emli]

You choose to play a certain way, now you need to learn how to adapt. A RK L60 stone from what I see starts at 45DPS, when you pump points into DPS it goes up, but to what I am unsure. If you are going to show stats please state like for like, ie maxed run and maxed bow or please dont post.

Many LM do not bother entering into melee range. Some do to increase their DPS. If you want to increase your DPS when low on power you need to rethink yourplaystyle to maximise it. Stop whining about other classes and play the one you have. If you run out of power then go melee. If the mob does AoE then attacking from behind often helps. There are ways that all classes can increase their DPS when out of power you need to think of ways to achieve it. If you think a hunter is a better class then please role one and play that class. No point oplaying a class that you are not happy with!

No, it starts at 42.7 DPS and yes if you pump points into it then it goes up, but no RK with a brain will ever put points in their stone DPS. Weapon DPS does nothing at all for ANY of our skills except auto-attacks and the DEV's know it, thus they gave us more "required" legacys than weapon based DPS classes have. When a weapon DPS class wants to increase their DPS they just pour their points to the DPS legacy increasing the damage for every one of their skills. When a RK wants to increase the damage for all of their skills they need to level up Frost damage, Fire damage and lightning damage legacys. Now if a RK would want to level up their weapon DPS to increase only his auto-attack damage he would be out of points. So it's not quite as easy as "just level up your stone DPS and go melee".

I also have a 60 LM so I know how they play, the reason some don't go into melee is because they are not a DPS class, they do not need to maximize their DPS, they are there for support. Yet if a LM is acctually going for damage then he WILL be doing melee damage, as staff strike can be up to 25% of a LM's total damage.

I'm not whining about other classes, I'm whining about my own :) . Ruining a fun and usefull trait line just because of misunderstandings is wrong.

P.S. The last 2 lines really made my day, these words from a hunter, oh the irony... :P

[Davout]

No, it starts at 42.7 DPS and yes if you pump points into it then it goes up, but no RK with a brain will ever put points in their stone DPS. Weapon DPS does nothing at all for ANY of our skills except auto-attacks and the DEV's know it, thus they gave us more "required" legacys than weapon based DPS classes have. When a weapon DPS class wants to increase their DPS they just pour their points to the DPS legacy increasing the damage for every one of their skills. When a RK wants to increase the damage for all of their skills they need to level up Frost damage, Fire damage and lightning damage legacys. Now if a RK would want to level up their weapon DPS to increase only his auto-attack damage he would be out of points. So it's not quite as easy as "just level up your stone DPS and go melee".

I also have a 60 LM so I know how they play, the reason some don't go into melee is because they are not a DPS class, they do not need to maximize their DPS, they are there for support. Yet if a LM is acctually going for damage then he WILL be doing melee damage, as staff strike can be up to 25% of a LM's total damage.

I'm not whining about other classes, I'm whining about my own . Ruining a fun and usefull trait line just because of misunderstandings is wrong.

P.S. The last 2 lines really made my day, these words from a hunter, oh the irony... :P

My appologies it is 42.7. I saw an image on the forums where a RK weapon was at 45 points and there were no points used to upgrade it. Yet when I saw one last night on the AH it was at 42.7. Not sure what is going on there unless there are different ones? But my appologies.
RK's do not put points into their weapon DPS as it is currently seen not to be beneficial to do so. This may or may not currently be the case, but this may change with the changes that are coming. But for the points of comparison then the weapon can be used in such a stance and should be compared likewise. A RK would not be out of points by putting the points into weapon DPS above other skills any more so than any other class would be. Every class would love to pump up all their chosen skill points to the max but every class has choices to make, including RK's. Its a matter of choice.
A LM DPS if done correctly would mean that over 50% of all damage comes from the staff, auto and staff strike. The overall effect would be an increase in DPS by over 25% by the LM. So if a LM wants to increase their DPS they pump points into staff, but still some chose not to. Its a matter of choice and playstyle. There is nothing stopping a RK doing so apart from choice.
You may not be whining about other classes but you are whining about hunters. Your innitial outburst came across as hunters in general. So even though you have changed this stance now or amybe you would say 'corrected our missinterpretations' the point was still perceived to be made.
As for the last 2 points made have you ever seen me state that I am unhappy with the class? Or is it that you are generalising again. I accepted the changes to the hunter. I even think that changes were necessary. I think that for group play they went just a little too far, but in general I am happy. So as far as I see it here we go again striking at hunters in general by virtue of taring all hunters by the same brush.
In my view all classes need to be balanced and useful. Otherwise we will end up with everyone rolling a few particularly useful classes and the rest get lost in time.
Whines / whinges never only make devs look at classes/skils. They do not in their own right get things changed. EVery change that happens comes not because of whines or whinges but because the devs do research on certain classes/skillsets. After that research the devs make their changes. Unfortunaley the exact effects of the changes cannot be worked out in full. Even small changes can make massive differences to small areas that just could not be perceived. Unfortunately this means that the masses do the real playtesting and the devs look at the overall effects. This means we will have constant progression.
Wardens and RK's were Turbines new babies. I stated pre MoM that the new classes will be OP as turbine just couldnt allow 2 new classes to be deemed a failure as it would mean that their new content was a failure. But this stance cannot and will not last forever, there still needs to be balance. The nerf was innevitable in my view even before the new classes were released. All this and yet you have never seen me call for a RK nerf. I have not even discussed RK's or their skills since pre MoM.
In the end if you like the game and you like your class you will play it. If you dont like the game you will leave it. If want to be an OP class then you will switch to the next flavour of the month.
I play many classes I like them all. I do not consider myself to be any one type. I tend to play whatever is needed/most useful for the group I am in. Because of this I tend to gain a decent knowledge of strengths and weaknesses of several classes. Some are far more important than others. Those classes that are maginalised are the ones that need loving. RK's are not marginalised by any strength of the imagination. In fact there was so much anti RK feeling in the game pre release that the only way for Turbine to ensure its success was to make people want to be one, ie make them OP and fun.

[Emli]

My appologies it is 42.7. I saw an image on the forums where a RK weapon was at 45 points and there were no points used to upgrade it. Yet when I saw one last night on the AH it was at 42.7. Not sure what is going on there unless there are different ones? But my appologies.
RK's do not put points into their weapon DPS as it is currently seen not to be beneficial to do so. This may or may not currently be the case, but this may change with the changes that are coming. But for the points of comparison then the weapon can be used in such a stance and should be compared likewise. A RK would not be out of points by putting the points into weapon DPS above other skills any more so than any other class would be. Every class would love to pump up all their chosen skill points to the max but every class has choices to make, including RK's. Its a matter of choice.
A LM DPS if done correctly would mean that over 50% of all damage comes from the staff, auto and staff strike. The overall effect would be an increase in DPS by over 25% by the LM. So if a LM wants to increase their DPS they pump points into staff, but still some chose not to. Its a matter of choice and playstyle. There is nothing stopping a RK doing so apart from choice.
You may not be whining about other classes but you are whining about hunters. Your innitial outburst came across as hunters in general. So even though you have changed this stance now or amybe you would say 'corrected our missinterpretations' the point was still perceived to be made.
As for the last 2 points made have you ever seen me state that I am unhappy with the class? Or is it that you are generalising again. I accepted the changes to the hunter. I even think that changes were necessary. I think that for group play they went just a little too far, but in general I am happy. So as far as I see it here we go again striking at hunters in general by virtue of taring all hunters by the same brush.
In my view all classes need to be balanced and useful. Otherwise we will end up with everyone rolling a few particularly useful classes and the rest get lost in time.
Whines / whinges never only make devs look at classes/skils. They do not in their own right get things changed. EVery change that happens comes not because of whines or whinges but because the devs do research on certain classes/skillsets. After that research the devs make their changes. Unfortunaley the exact effects of the changes cannot be worked out in full. Even small changes can make massive differences to small areas that just could not be perceived. Unfortunately this means that the masses do the real playtesting and the devs look at the overall effects. This means we will have constant progression.
Wardens and RK's were Turbines new babies. I stated pre MoM that the new classes will be OP as turbine just couldnt allow 2 new classes to be deemed a failure as it would mean that their new content was a failure. But this stance cannot and will not last forever, there still needs to be balance. The nerf was innevitable in my view even before the new classes were released. All this and yet you have never seen me call for a RK nerf. I have not even discussed RK's or their skills since pre MoM.
In the end if you like the game and you like your class you will play it. If you dont like the game you will leave it. If want to be an OP class then you will switch to the next flavour of the month.
I play many classes I like them all. I do not consider myself to be any one type. I tend to play whatever is needed/most useful for the group I am in. Because of this I tend to gain a decent knowledge of strengths and weaknesses of several classes. Some are far more important than others. Those classes that are maginalised are the ones that need loving. RK's are not marginalised by any strength of the imagination. In fact there was so much anti RK feeling in the game pre release that the only way for Turbine to ensure its success was to make people want to be one, ie make them OP and fun.

The picture of 45 DPS on a stone may have been an old one, before the LI weapon dps nerf.

RK's point placement really isn't comparable to LM's and other weapon DPS classes. Weapon DPS classes were designed with the weapon DPS legacy part being the majority of the DPS increase from a LI and the legacys being the icing on the cake. The RK's were the opposite, as a purely tactical damage class our DPS increase from a LI came from legacys only, therefore we were given more "required" legacys. For example, I doubt that weapon DPS classes have legacys such as WOF damage and WOF DoT damage, which both give up to +13% overall damage, meaning +26% overall damage just from 2 legacys. Add to that Fury of Storm legacy +13% more damage and -power cost legacy for -13% power cost for all skills you already have 4 absolutely necessary legacys for a DPS RK + all the pretty bonus legacys like +39% crit multiplier and individual skill bonuses. This means that a RK really doesn't have any points to spare for just auto-attacks and swapping out one of the previous ones to spend points on auto-attack damage would hurt more than help.

No, I have never seen you say you are unhappy about the class, it was just a little joke, seeing those sentences said by a hunter after a huge amount of hunters threatened to quit the game after book 7 was just humorous, nothing bad intended.

And just for the record, RK's or wardens at the Moria release were far from overpowered, the claims started after b7 when RK's were buffed at the same time as others were nerfed, making everyone angry at the RK's for avoiding the nerf bat. At the start of Moria end-game RK's were acctually the second lowest damage dealers in the damage, only out-damaging minstrels. The much needed buff was just timed horribly wrong, causing a lot of RK hate from the other classes being nerfed.

And no, I'm not leaving the game or going for the next FoTM class (unless you can call the GRD a FoTM class). I just want to feel usefull instead of being a burden in a group.

[OMWiener]

As Davout pointed out. Other classes wished they could put all their points into the legacies as well you know. A hunter can get two legacies for -power cost which are very good since B7. Throw in two crit multiplier legacies, quick shot crit rating, -evade/block rating/threat down legacies. You don't think all those legacies would help out our class tremendously?

[Emli]

As Davout pointed out. Other classes wished they could put all their points into the legacies as well you know. A hunter can get two legacies for -power cost which are very good since B7. Throw in two crit multiplier legacies, quick shot crit rating, -evade/block rating/threat down legacies. You don't think all those legacies would help out our class tremendously?

They would help out but not by nearly as much as RK "required" legacys. two legacys for crit multipliers doesn't come close to 3 legacys that add +13% each to overall damage. Other than those "required" legacys we also have the tremendously helpful legacys like +39% to our crit multipliers and -13% to power costs. Due to not requiring to level our weapon DPS we have more legacys that we NEED to level up to be effective.

[Davout]

The picture of 45 DPS on a stone may have been an old one, before the LI weapon dps nerf.
Yes my appologies for my earlier statement I looked hard and long to find out what was the value of a RK 1st age stone becusae I couldnt believe that a RK stone would be so different when maxed out from any other 1sta age weapon. It is also my conclusion that this picture was prior to the global DPS nerf.

RK's point placement really isn't comparable to LM's and other weapon DPS classes. Weapon DPS classes were designed with the weapon DPS legacy part being the majority of the DPS increase from a LI and the legacys being the icing on the cake. The RK's were the opposite, as a purely tactical damage class our DPS increase from a LI came from legacys only, therefore we were given more "required" legacys. For example, I doubt that weapon DPS classes have legacys such as WOF damage and WOF DoT damage, which both give up to +13% overall damage, meaning +26% overall damage just from 2 legacys. Add to that Fury of Storm legacy +13% more damage and -power cost legacy for -13% power cost for all skills you already have 4 absolutely necessary legacys for a DPS RK + all the pretty bonus legacys like +39% crit multiplier and individual skill bonuses. This means that a RK really doesn't have any points to spare for just auto-attacks and swapping out one of the previous ones to spend points on auto-attack damage would hurt more than help.
This still does not detract from the fact that you can and thus that the points placement is a personal choice. A hunter could make the same choices to not place any points into their weapon DPS. I am sure that other classes would also like to not have to put points into their weapons DPS and more into other legacies, but they really do not. So the fact that RK's do not have to put points into weapon DPS to maintain excelent DPS is currently a bonus to RK's and a deficit to other classes.

No, I have never seen you say you are unhappy about the class, it was just a little joke, seeing those sentences said by a hunter after a huge amount of hunters threatened to quit the game after book 7 was just humorous, nothing bad intended.
Do not get me wrong I see things that I would like to change. I see some skills as OP and others as UP to all classes. That doesnt bother me, what does is that some classes are more beneficial to groupings than others. Currently mey personal beliefs are that guardians and burglars are still less required for groups. Burglars because they have no defined role and other classes can equally give benefits to a group besides matching a burglars skills (captains buffing, LM debuffing, LM CC, and to a certain extent even FS maneuvres are so frequent (and less usefulness) now that the only real skill a burg has greater access to is vastly negated). A guardian is not needed as champions can tank more efficiently in most cases even in their DPS stance of fervour and often 2 champions are far more efficient than 1 guardian + 1 champion. Though I was in favour of reducing a hunters DPS (even more so than just the global weapon reduction) I do believe that they went a little too far, but not by much. I think the class went from far outstripping many classes with their single target DPS to now struggling to match some classes on a consistent basis. So yes balancing was needed but can be taken too far.

And just for the record, RK's or wardens at the Moria release were far from overpowered, the claims started after b7 when RK's were buffed at the same time as others were nerfed, making everyone angry at the RK's for avoiding the nerf bat. At the start of Moria end-game RK's were acctually the second lowest damage dealers in the damage, only out-damaging minstrels. The much needed buff was just timed horribly wrong, causing a lot of RK hate from the other classes being nerfed.
I beg to differ. At release RK & wardens were very powerful at release. The trouble was that the top end was poorly thought out for them, but the early progression was far more powerful than any other class I had rolled and I had rolled every class. The top end was only expected to be corrected by Turbine in Bk 7. This was well known even prior to the release of MoM. The trouble was that Turbine went ahead with the planned changes to the class for RK's even though they realised they needed to make a global weapon nerf for all classes. I suspect that they did this for political reasons (needing to ensure the class success). Now that there are so many RK's rolled (by the FOTM chasers) Turbine can afford to correct the imbalance. RK's are not the only class to receive a nerf. Champions and Minstrals will also have their DPS nerfed, and in each case I believe that it is necessary for balance. Burglars are receiving a very welcome increase in their strengths but unfortunately I doubt the change will actually improve their role definition and thus still mean that they are less required for a group role. The nerf to champions should increase the role of a guardian within a group as agro management.

And no, I'm not leaving the game or going for the next FoTM class (unless you can call the GRD a FoTM class). I just want to feel usefull instead of being a burden in a group.
Same as with every other person. They want to feel useful to a group. By the way its a very good time to roll a guardian or go back to guardian with book 8. They will regain some of their use within a group that MoM removed and bk 7 partially corrected. So yes guardian could be considered to be FOTM. Though let me stress that I am NOT stating that this is your reasoning.

In MoM I consider that the main classes required for most top end instances were:
Minstral, main healer
Captain, buffs
LM CC, debuff
Champion, Main tank (in fervour stance) and DPS
Hunter, DPS

Useful but not overly required:
RK, DPS or healing

Not needed:
Burglars
Wardens
Guardians

With Bk7 I consider that the main classes required for most top end instances are:
Minstral, healer
Captain, buffs
LM CC, debuff
Champion, Main tank (in fervour stance) and DPS
RK, DPS or healer

Useful but not overly required:
Hunters, DPS
Wardens, Tank
Guardians, Tank

Not needed:
Burglars

With Bk8 I suspect that the main classes required for most top end instances will be:
Minstrel, healer
Captain, buffs
LM CC, debuff, power giver
Champion, DPS
RK, DPS or healer
Wardens, Tank
Guardians, Tank

Useful but not overly required:
Hunters, DPS

Not needed:
Burglars

Of course this is my view. I am sure that some will get upset by it but it is my view. I assume some burglars may disagree. I love playing my burglar but unless their role in groups is better defined I really do not see an advantage to taking my burglar if the other clases are available.

[Eikinskialdi]

38% lol

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1619/screenshot00066.th.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot00066.jpg)

[Emli]

Yes my appologies for my earlier statement I looked hard and long to find out what was the value of a RK 1st age stone becusae I couldnt believe that a RK stone would be so different when maxed out from any other 1sta age weapon. It is also my conclusion that this picture was prior to the global DPS nerf.


This still does not detract from the fact that you can and thus that the points placement is a personal choice. A hunter could make the same choices to not place any points into their weapon DPS. I am sure that other classes would also like to not have to put points into their weapons DPS and more into other legacies, but they really do not. So the fact that RK's do not have to put points into weapon DPS to maintain excelent DPS is currently a bonus to RK's and a deficit to other classes.


Do not get me wrong I see things that I would like to change. I see some skills as OP and others as UP to all classes. That doesnt bother me, what does is that some classes are more beneficial to groupings than others. Currently mey personal beliefs are that guardians and burglars are still less required for groups. Burglars because they have no defined role and other classes can equally give benefits to a group besides matching a burglars skills (captains buffing, LM debuffing, LM CC, and to a certain extent even FS maneuvres are so frequent (and less usefulness) now that the only real skill a burg has greater access to is vastly negated). A guardian is not needed as champions can tank more efficiently in most cases even in their DPS stance of fervour and often 2 champions are far more efficient than 1 guardian + 1 champion. Though I was in favour of reducing a hunters DPS (even more so than just the global weapon reduction) I do believe that they went a little too far, but not by much. I think the class went from far outstripping many classes with their single target DPS to now struggling to match some classes on a consistent basis. So yes balancing was needed but can be taken too far.


I beg to differ. At release RK & wardens were very powerful at release. The trouble was that the top end was poorly thought out for them, but the early progression was far more powerful than any other class I had rolled and I had rolled every class. The top end was only expected to be corrected by Turbine in Bk 7. This was well known even prior to the release of MoM. The trouble was that Turbine went ahead with the planned changes to the class for RK's even though they realised they needed to make a global weapon nerf for all classes. I suspect that they did this for political reasons (needing to ensure the class success). Now that there are so many RK's rolled (by the FOTM chasers) Turbine can afford to correct the imbalance. RK's are not the only class to receive a nerf. Champions and Minstrals will also have their DPS nerfed, and in each case I believe that it is necessary for balance. Burglars are receiving a very welcome increase in their strengths but unfortunately I doubt the change will actually improve their role definition and thus still mean that they are less required for a group role. The nerf to champions should increase the role of a guardian within a group as agro management.


Same as with every other person. They want to feel useful to a group. By the way its a very good time to roll a guardian or go back to guardian with book 8. They will regain some of their use within a group that MoM removed and bk 7 partially corrected. So yes guardian could be considered to be FOTM. Though let me stress that I am NOT stating that this is your reasoning.

.

RK's have a disadvantage not an advantage over weapon DPS classes with the LI's. A weapon DPS class wanting to raise his DPS just levels up the DPS legacy that exists on every single LI and raises his DPS by roughly 25%. When a RK wants the same 25% increase he has to get WoF damage and WoF DoT damage legacy which are not on every LI. When a weapon DPS class, let's say hunter, wants to add a bit of oomph to his bow, he finds a bow with -power cost, not hard to find a bow with 1 specific legacy. When a RK wants the same result he needs WoF damage, WoF DoT damage and -power cost legacy, which are pretty hard to come by on correct tiers. And this goes on and on, a top of the line bow can be gotten by maxing out weapon DPS and finding about 3 specific legacys, which is tough but doable. A RK looking for the same result will need 5-6, which is mission impossible. So having a weapon DPS legacy for a weapon DPS class is an amazing bonus.

And about burglars, I don't think they are all that useless, as they bring a lot to the table: CC, nice debuffs, good DPS when positioned well and reliable FM's. Although they don't exceed other classes in any one role, when all of that is combined it is very usefull. There are other classes that don't dominate in a specific are aswell. A close example for me would be RK's, we are outdpsed by champs (will be even more after b8) and outhealed by minstrels, yet still considered a nice addition for a group.

Guardians aswell aren't all that useless, in easier radiance instances the fervour champ may do a faster job, but at the likes of Gurvand and Watcher you definately want a sturdier Guardian to tag along.

By the way, the RK really IS the only class getting it's group role nerfed in b8. Minstrels are only getting their DPS legacys nerfed slightly, but they wouldn't be DPS-ing in groups anyway. Champs are only getting a -incoming heal% for their fervour stance, their DPS is left untouched, which means they increase their DPS lead even further. The nerf just enforces the rule that a DPS-ing class should not have aggro and forces the champion to acctually use other stances when he wants to tank.

P.S It seems I have managed to completely derail this thread, but bear with me, my video card should be getting fixed soon so I won't be around for long :P

[Davout]

They would help out but not by nearly as much as RK "required" legacys. two legacys for crit multipliers doesn't come close to 3 legacys that add +13% each to overall damage. Other than those "required" legacys we also have the tremendously helpful legacys like +39% to our crit multipliers and -13% to power costs. Due to not requiring to level our weapon DPS we have more legacys that we NEED to level up to be effective.

Not need but WANT.

Now with the changes you may NEED to put some points into the weapon DPS part of your weapon.

The 51.0 auto attack DPS is very good for a weapon. Similar to a LM staff DPS. Maybe high end RK's will have to rethink their playstyle or maybe they wont. maybe they will just have to rethink their choices.

Maybe Turbine realised that RK's high end DPS was due to their ability to fire out DPS without having to build for power issues. As a result they could ignore the need to look closely at power. Whatever Turbine decided I am sure that they made these changes after much discussion study of their data. Something that we are not privy to.

In the end I think that Turbine do a reasonable job of balancing things. Sure when they add things they do not get the balance correct, but then I dont think they drop a real bombshell to often, and although they seem slow to react to some problems I would rather they did rect slow so that they could consider what corrections are needed and study the problems so that they can make a decent change. Sure the populace doesnt like to be given something then have it take away but hey, nobody does.

In the end though we are here, we play the game and we like playing the game. If your class cannot get into a group then there is an issue. From my previous post you will see that I consider that RK's will still be useful in a group. Probably still above hunters for DPS. Of course I may be wrong but only time will tell.

On the whole I consider that Bk8 changes will balance out class usefullness quite a lot. With only 2 classes being outside the most suitable. Hunters just outside and Burglars well outside. All other classes will have their places, but lets wait and see.

[Davout]

RK's have a disadvantage not an advantage over weapon DPS classes with the LI's. A weapon DPS class wanting to raise his DPS just levels up the DPS legacy that exists on every single LI and raises his DPS by roughly 25%. When a RK wants the same 25% increase he has to get WoF damage and WoF DoT damage legacy which are not on every LI. When a weapon DPS class, let's say hunter, wants to add a bit of oomph to his bow, he finds a bow with -power cost, not hard to find a bow with 1 specific legacy. When a RK wants the same result he needs WoF damage, WoF DoT damage and -power cost legacy, which are pretty hard to come by on correct tiers. And this goes on and on, a top of the line bow can be gotten by maxing out weapon DPS and finding about 3 specific legacys, which is tough but doable. A RK looking for the same result will need 5-6, which is mission impossible. So having a weapon DPS legacy for a weapon DPS class is an amazing bonus.

And about burglars, I don't think they are all that useless, as they bring a lot to the table: CC, nice debuffs, good DPS when positioned well and reliable FM's. Although they don't exceed other classes in any one role, when all of that is combined it is very usefull. There are other classes that don't dominate in a specific are aswell. A close example for me would be RK's, we are outdpsed by champs (will be even more after b8) and outhealed by minstrels, yet still considered a nice addition for a group.

Guardians aswell aren't all that useless, in easier radiance instances the fervour champ may do a faster job, but at the likes of Gurvand and Watcher you definately want a sturdier Guardian to tag along.

By the way, the RK really IS the only class getting it's group role nerfed in b8. Minstrels are only getting their DPS legacys nerfed slightly, but they wouldn't be DPS-ing in groups anyway. Champs are only getting a -incoming heal% for their fervour stance, their DPS is left untouched, which means they increase their DPS lead even further. The nerf just enforces the rule that a DPS-ing class should not have aggro and forces the champion to acctually use other stances when he wants to tank.

P.S It seems I have managed to completely derail this thread, but bear with me, my video card should be getting fixed soon so I won't be around for long :P

Here we go again confusing the word NEED and WANT.

Yes hunters want to have theoiir weapon maxed, but they would also like other legacies that increase their damage. A RK dowsnt need to put any points as it stands into weapon DPS. They out DPS a hunter for sustained DPS. They are more useful in a group than hunter as things stand.

All classes have some uses. that is not the issue. The point I was making is that some classes bring less to the table than others. When making up a group currently I would prefer to bring a RK for sustained higher DPS rather than a hunter. I would rather take some other class than a burglar, that is not to say that a burglar doesnt have its uses. I would rather take a champion than a guardian.

Dont get me wrong we take all classes to give those classes a chance, but in all honesty I know that I could make up a group more efficient if a burglar, a guardian, a warden and to some extent a hunter was not present. These are my views but I do honestly believe them.

[OMWiener]

When a weapon DPS class, let's say hunter, wants to add a bit of oomph to his bow, he finds a bow with -power cost, not hard to find a bow with 1 specific legacy.

If a hunter wants to get -power, he has to get two legacies (yes for a hunter it is divided into two legacies). Same for crit multipliers.

Nothing to add further. I follow davouts reasoning on this one, just wanted to nitpick :P

[Emli]

Here we go again confusing the word NEED and WANT.

Yes hunters want to have theoiir weapon maxed, but they would also like other legacies that increase their damage. A RK dowsnt need to put any points as it stands into weapon DPS. They out DPS a hunter for sustained DPS. They are more useful in a group than hunter as things stand.

All classes have some uses. that is not the issue. The point I was making is that some classes bring less to the table than others. When making up a group currently I would prefer to bring a RK for sustained higher DPS rather than a hunter. I would rather take some other class than a burglar, that is not to say that a burglar doesnt have its uses. I would rather take a champion than a guardian.

Dont get me wrong we take all classes to give those classes a chance, but in all honesty I know that I could make up a group more efficient if a burglar, a guardian, a warden and to some extent a hunter was not present. These are my views but I do honestly believe them.

I still can't see how not having to put points into weapon DPS is an advantage. Having a weapon DPS legacy that is on every single LI and increases damage by 25% is great. Overall a RK wanting the same effect from his LI that a hunter gets needs to spend the same amount of points but has to get much luckier on the LI lottery cause he needs 2 more specific legacys.

And the hunter vs. RK thing in groups is purely situational. If you are going against mobs like the turtle, then yes, a RK would be the wiser choice. But if you are going through an instance with lots of trash, like the 16th hall, then a hunter would be more usefull. But then again, a champion beats both at everything.

[nightbyday]

I don't think there is a confusion to want and need with weapon dps.

Hunters NEED to max weapon dps, can you imagine any melee class with non maxed dps? can you imagine in SoA a level 50 hunter running about with a level 35 bow? besides ALL damages is calculated from weapons base dps (this is why the book7 changes we twice as hard on hunters).

Hunters WANT to have maxed at least 3 or 4 legacies tha effect thier core skills the same as any other class. I don't think any other class has a split save power melee skills? where the confusion comes is that all classes do have plus damage to certain skills split specifically (eg ballads and 'nukes' on a mns or damage on blade of elendil/crys on a captian).

Hunters dont have that many more skills than other classes but the do have a lot more legacies thats the problem (to much choice :P).

CRITS
Induction (crit)
focus (crit)
quick shot (crit) [but this is an induction skill are we saying quick shot is not affected by minus legacies for inductions skills?]

POWER SAVING
induction
focus

THREAT REDUCTION
induction
focus
endurance

and so on.

Seriously lets look at it state of play in game.

with crit chance you can could look at a build/playstyle that concentraits on one skill set, focus or induction, do hunters have to have crit chance all shots? (now thats a want and need... i don't think they need). Power saving is needed all shots (the reason hunters have a power saving class item [here i would like to point out i would have prefered a legendary class item on my hunter NOT a weapon... reason? +the plus light damage/minus incominfg damage scrolls]. The general view is five trait mom legendaires are 'usless' with hybrid build the norm. Mob B/P/E is not so much an issue although it does happen quite a lot with out legacy bonus and finally threat management in fellowship, endurance is daft as a whole dps drops off so much no chance of threat, precision it is seems is the new endurance stance and if your carefull with shot rotations etc strenth stance is fine (dev actually stated changes were so hunters could be more 'aggresive').

SO....
barbed arrow, distracting shot, slow, moving miss chance legacies are are 'situational and low on the list of wants. burn hot (who uses that regulary now?) ALL threat reductions are not needed now along with heart seeker.

Lets say you contentrait on induction 'play style'
Induction crit rate (quick shot should NOT be a seperate legacy)
Induction power reduction
(induction threat if you a dps mad fellowshipper)
then throw in 2 or 3 evade modifiers i think you have a reasonably solid weapon there leaving one spare lagacy slot.

Note here if you went for
induction crit
focus crit
focus power
induction power
the final two legacies will either you allow you reuce threat potential in a fellowship (this strength stance might be an issue) or negate some mobs evades (not negating evades might mean dps drops due to missed, blocked, evaded shots.)

A hard choice but no harder than some other classes.

[Scatha the Worm]

The clear advantage of not having to put any points in DPS itself are a lot, because of the randomness of the system: you can simply look at legacies, and not worry about weapon speed, you don't have to spend half of your points in DPS which lets you consider non-max tier legacies when searching a weapon, you can ignore level differencies between 58-59-60 (which goes a LONG way in being able to just barter lvl 59 legendaries from tables), you can ignore weapon type (because you only have one), the difference between First Age/Second Age/Third Age is not THAT important, etc etc etc.

Even more, RKs have a lot of + direct damage legacies (and the class item itself). Hunters dont have any of those, all we get are Crit Multipliers (calculations done the two legacies enhace total damage by about 2%) and -BPE legacies that indirectly buff our overall damage. I'm all in for a system without MUST HAVE legacies, since it is cookie-build design, but where every DPS class has those (Champs Fervour+AoE and RKs Fury of Storm, Chill of Winter, Wrath of Flame) we certainly come short. Ask any hunter what would happen if a legacy of Focus Bow Damage or Induction Bow Damage appeared, what would happen... But we don't get that option.

Even more, the 4 core legacies (Crits and power costs) almost all hunters look for are very expensive. You can't even max 2 of them toghether on a 3rd age (because we HAVE to max DPS). And also, the curve between weapon DPS from Third Age to First Age is too large, more than 10%. The inability to choose different weapon speeds forces us to consider Second Age Crossbow as optimum choice (and I HATE crossbows) for grouping, and First Ages with good legeacies.... Gluck winning the lottery.

Remember the insane resist rate Tactical classes had before book 7? It is still the now, it just switched to BPE of physical attacks. That's why a lot of us talk about Precision Builds, even when that clearly is a power drain.

So, all in all, the grind-fest that the Legendary Item system is favours tactical classes by a long leap when grinding for a weapon. Add that on top of overlapping nerfs (skill and weapon + power problems), and you get the dull non-competitive hunter.

RK's newly introduced power issues... Time will tell. But coming to hunter forums to say "ZOMG we'll run out of power in under 2 minutes!" makes most of us laugh, since that is everyday experience for us.
Even then, I'm not so sure you'll run out of power in 2 minutes, contrary to hunters you have an active class developer that seems to test things. Worst happens, you'll run through power pots like we currently do now (and we still come out third in the damage ranking), and of course it isn't ok, but don't search for sympathies here about that. We long lived with power issues in SoA (but we had Gwathryn's Longbow and less DPS classes to compete with), and we're suffering even worse now.

Before any smartass says we can trait endurance, deep concentration... If you want to do sub-pet DPS, you can do that and sustain power for 5 minutes instead of 2. And I'm not even considering Strength while grouping.

Gluck with making the game even less-appealing each time Turbine!

[Emli]

I don't think there is a confusion to want and need with weapon dps.

Hunters NEED to max weapon dps, can you imagine any melee class with non maxed dps? can you imagine in SoA a level 50 hunter running about with a level 35 bow? besides ALL damages is calculated from weapons base dps (this is why the book7 changes we twice as hard on hunters).

Hunters WANT to have maxed at least 3 or 4 legacies tha effect thier core skills the same as any other class. I don't think any other class has a split save power melee skills? where the confusion comes is that all classes do have plus damage to certain skills split specifically (eg ballads and 'nukes' on a mns or damage on blade of elendil/crys on a captian).

.

And it's very similar to a tactical class NEEDING those specific legacys. Can you imagine a RK not maxing out WoF damage and WoF DoT damage, that's just losing 25% of your overall DPS, exactly the same as not levelling up weapon DPS for weapon DPS classes. Only difference is that weapon DPS classes have this legacy on every single LI they find, whereas RK's have to search around for those two. And add to that RK's also have those 3 or 4 extra legacys that they WANT just like hunters (+38% crit multiplier, -13% battle attuned power cost, +13% Fury of Storm damage, distracting flame cooldown and the list goes on and on). The lack of needing to level up weapon DPS is just replaced by the need to level up extra legacys. There is no advantage for a tactical class. Finding a weapon with 6 legacys at maximum tier so you have enough points to level them up is just as hard as finding a 1st age bow of the right speed and 3-4 best legacys.

[nightbyday]

And it's very similar to a tactical class NEEDING those specific legacys. Can you imagine a RK not maxing out WoF damage and WoF DoT damage, that's just losing 25% of your overall DPS, exactly the same as not levelling up weapon DPS for weapon DPS classes. Only difference is that weapon DPS classes have this legacy on every single LI they find, whereas RK's have to search around for those two. And add to that RK's also have those 3 or 4 extra legacys that they WANT just like hunters (+38% crit multiplier, -13% battle attuned power cost, +13% Fury of Storm damage, distracting flame cooldown and the list goes on and on). The lack of needing to level up weapon DPS is just replaced by the need to level up extra legacys. There is no advantage for a tactical class. Finding a weapon with 6 legacys at maximum tier so you have enough points to level them up is just as hard as finding a 1st age bow of the right speed and 3-4 best legacys.

Did you read the worms post? that explains a hunter plight spot on.



This has turned into an interesting thread though as it made me think, 'what IF LW's were maxed (static) dps', all classes would then have equality in the legacy area both in NEED and Wants :D

[Emli]

Did you read the worms post? that explains a hunter plight spot on.



This has turned into an interesting thread though as it made me think, 'what IF LW's were maxed (static) dps', all classes would then have equality in the legacy area both in NEED and Wants :D

But there is the equality in NEEDs and WANTS, a hunter NEEDS to max out his weapon DPS to stay competitive and a RK NEEDS those 2 specific direct damage legacys to be competitive. Both of these options use the same amount of points (more for the RK if it's lower tier legacys) and give the exact same effect. Beyond that both classes can increase their effectiveness by adding extra legacys but not by nearly as much as with the NEEDED legacys. Those are what I call WANT legacys, like +crit multipliers and -power legacys, that make the weapon better but are not as crucial as they provide less improvement.

Yes, a hunter does have to look at weapon age, but so does a RK. Second and first age weapons get more points to spend and the quality of the legacys also goes up, a legacy goes up higher on a first age weapon, although for a hunter the age is a bit more important.

The weapon speed for a RK doesn't mean anything indeed, but finding a first age bow with the proper speed and proper legacys is just as hard as finding a second or first age runestone that has 6 perfect tier 6 legacys (If they aren't tier 6 you won't have enough points to max em). Finding a LI for a hunter and a RK is just as hard, they are just looking at different things. The difficulty of finding a proper age weapon with the proper speed for hunters is balanced by the RK needing more legacys.

and IF all LI's came with maxed DPS at the start then it would give the weapon DPS classes a huge advantage as they would gain an increase in damage for no points spent and could spend all their points on WANT legacys, while a RK would have to waste half his points on the NEEDed direct damage legacys and only have half the points for the WANTed legacys.

[nightbyday]

and IF all LI's came with maxed DPS at the start then it would give the weapon DPS classes a huge advantage as they would gain an increase in damage for no points spent and could spend all their points on WANT legacys, while a RK would have to waste half his points on the NEEDed direct damage legacys and only have half the points for the WANTed legacys.

So whats wrong with that?

An Rk wouldn't waste his points all class would be putting points in to the legacies they want to level.

Everyone would be equal because of the lottery on legacies.

Are you saying RK's are ment to out dps hunters?

[Emli]

So whats wrong with that?

An Rk wouldn't waste his points all class would be putting points in to the legacies they want to level.

Everyone would be equal because of the lottery on legacies.

Are you saying RK's are ment to out dps hunters?

No, it would be unfair because RK's would still have more legacys that they HAVE to level in order to get the same effect as a hunter. If instead they also tied tactical damage with weapon DPS so RK's would also gain from an increase in weapon DPS, then it would be fair. Right now a RK who doesn't get WoF damage and WoF DoT legacy gains only a few percentage of improvement over a non-LI weapon. While a hunter who gets none of the legacys he wants can still improve around 25% by just levelling the DPS legacy that exists on every single LI.

[Davout]

We can discuss all this as much as we want, but at the end of the day it is my experience that RK's do more damage and help kill mobs faster than hunters. If it comes to ST DPS as a group leader I prefer a RK covering the DPS role over an hunter. Which is unfortunate when I am on my hunter.

[Emli]

We can discuss all this as much as we want, but at the end of the day it is my experience that RK's do more damage and help kill mobs faster than hunters. If it comes to ST DPS as a group leader I prefer a RK covering the DPS role over an hunter. Which is unfortunate when I am on my hunter.

And it is my experience as a RK that it is all situational, on a huge boss with masses of morale like the turtle the RK is indeed better at dealing damage (although not as good as a champion) and in long instances filled with trash mobs like the 16th hall the hunter is a better option (altough again, not nearly as good as a champion).

So in conclusion, everyone roll a champion! Just joking :P

On a more serious note, all I think that needs to be done to fix the current situation is to make the champion and hunter swap places in single target DPS. And in dream world it should be without a nerf to the champions but with a boost to the RK's and hunters, because then there would be a more clear distinction between a support class and a DPS class (unlike now). But then again in a dream world we would also have mobs doing higher damage and tank classes having far higher mitigations so tanks would acctually be needed. Then it would be:

ST capability:
1. hunter
2. RK
3. champion

AoE capability:
1. champion
2. RK
3. hunter

Of course, that's not considering the non DPS classes, cause some of them in their DPS specs can easily do more AoE than RK's or Hunters.


Hehe, it seems we have managed to go from the hunter nerf to the RK nerf to the hunter vs. RK to the flaws of the LI system. What next ? :P

[Redeemer]

Completely agree with Emli - It's complete trash to say RKs/Tactical classes have an easier time getting the weapon/LI they want. For a RK you are correct to say 58-59 60 makes little to no difference, and they only have 1 weapon type. For a LM, it does make a difference, a big proportion of damage can come from staff strike, and to that end it is usually worthwhile putting points into weapon dps. For a minstrel, again 58-59-60 makes little difference, but they have different weapon types like others, and speed is certainly a consideration (I prefer daggers/clubs, for example).

Then you have legacies. DPS is always on every item. It always costs the same amount to rank up. Tactical classes have to a) get the right legacies and b) get them at the right tiers to get large boosts to their damage, as they gain nothing from weapon DPS.
For a lightning specced RK there are 2-3 essential legacies for example - for a fire specced RK 2 - and lots of 'highly desirable' legacies comparable to hunter crits/power costs.

You also ignore the fact that RKs and LMs have base stats to consider on their weapons. Those are completely random and set in stone from the moment the item is IDed, so arguably worse than the legacy lottery.

Note, I have a burglar (a class heavily dependant on weapon speed/dps age), LM and minstrel all with almost perfect level 50 2nd age (solo, in the case of minstrel) weapons, and a RK on the way. I did not find any one class to be easier than the others.

[nightbyday]

This has just turned into a Runekeeper is worse off than a hunter and needs more to be better than a hunter at dps and should be better thread.

Thats just plain daft, if Runekeeper end up being best for dps hunters might as well give up. Reason, hunters 2nd role as CC is third in the pecking order for that role, Rk's 2nd roll as healer is not.

I can tell you some thing if Runekeepers start to take the 'king of dps' role they expect a huge nerf in a book or two.

On subject it isn't that bad for hunters but it's damn well getting there.

edit oh let add this in...

hunters don't get the benifit of adding +damage or minus incoming damage to a class item, the same applies to wardens, now thats 'unfair'. So a tactical class can get right way a +damage bonus that hunter can not and not spend any points on it.

[Emli]

This has just turned into a Runekeeper is worse off than a hunter and needs more to be better than a hunter at dps and should be better thread.

Thats just plain daft, if Runekeeper end up being best for dps hunters might as well give up. Reason, hunters 2nd role as CC is third in the pecking order for that role, Rk's 2nd roll as healer is not.

I can tell you some thing if Runekeepers start to take the 'king of dps' role they expect a huge nerf in a book or two.

On subject it isn't that bad for hunters but it's damn well getting there.

edit oh let add this in...

hunters don't get the benifit of adding +damage or minus incoming damage to a class item, the same applies to wardens, now thats 'unfair'. So a tactical class can get right way a +damage bonus that hunter can not and not spend any points on it.


*points to his previous post* If you would take a look at that list, I am clearly suggesting that hunters should be nr. 1 DPS

I am not saying RK's are worse off, I know that hunters are having it pretty bad right now, but that doesn't mean that RK's should be smashed this hard with the nerf bat, as that would solve nothing. Even if RK's were nerfed into oblivion, back to the Moria release position of doing damage of a NON-warspeech minstrel, hunters would still not be number 1 as champions would still dominate. I am suggesting that hunters and RK's should be both buffed ( a hunter bit more of course) so the ST dpsers would acctually be doing the best ST dps and all the dps classes could be distinguished from non-dps classes.

And if you say that hunters have it hard because of not being able to add +5% fire damage to their class item (which is bugged and is not fixed AFTER 7 MONTHS BTW, so RK's get nothing out of it), then do I have to remind you that hunters are the only ones who can acctually have 2 legendary weapons, to which you can add other bonuses.

[OMWiener]

And if you say that hunters have it hard because of not being able to add +5% fire damage to their class item (which is bugged and is not fixed AFTER 7 MONTHS BTW, so RK's get nothing out of it), then do I have to remind you that hunters are the only ones who can acctually have 2 legendary weapons, to which you can add other bonuses.

Uhm, and you can't add bonusses to a legendary satchel?

And btw: I personally think that about 80% of the hunters would have preferred something else besides a melee legendary weapon. Why do you think hunters were running around with MAS daggers in SoA? Cuz our melee is situational and mostly used to enhance our solo abilities (focus, parry, heal chance), not really to deal damage. If you look into the dev suggestion thread about legacies you will see most hunters ****ed off at the melee legacies. Sure, there's a minority that builds for melee as well, but in general the melee weapon is a waste of legacy points. If there were actually more then two usefull legacies for hunter melee weapons, i wouldn't even bother levelling the dps ;)

[Emli]

Uhm, and you can't add bonusses to a legendary satchel?

And btw: I personally think that about 80% of the hunters would have preferred something else besides a melee legendary weapon. Why do you think hunters were running around with MAS daggers in SoA? Cuz our melee is situational and mostly used to enhance our solo abilities (focus, parry, heal chance), not really to deal damage. If you look into the dev suggestion thread about legacies you will see most hunters ****ed off at the melee legacies. Sure, there's a minority that builds for melee as well, but in general the melee weapon is a waste of legacy points. If there were actually more then two usefull legacies for hunter melee weapons, i wouldn't even bother levelling the dps ;)

The legacys on class items seem underwhelming indeed, but not just for hunters. The inability to add the bonuses to hunter's melee legendarys must have been overlooked by the DEV's though, as it seems weird to be the only class not able to use those scrolls. Hopefully when they get around to fixing it they will also fix the scrolls being bugged for RK's -.-


P.S *happy dance* The devs finally figured out that they were nerfing the wrong spec too hard. In BR patch 2 the lightning atk power costs were raised even higher but the power cost nerfage on fire atks was reduced a bit, hopefully there will be less Sith lords out there now :). But then again after 7 months they still haven't managed to fix the -10% power cost you are supposed to get from speccing fire and damage from WoF and EoF is going down 10% :(

[Scatha the Worm]

The legacys on class items seem underwhelming indeed, but not just for hunters. The inability to add the bonuses to hunter's melee legendarys must have been overlooked by the DEV's though, as it seems weird to be the only class not able to use those scrolls. Hopefully when they get around to fixing it they will also fix the scrolls being bugged for RK's -.-


P.S *happy dance* The devs finally figured out that they were nerfing the wrong spec too hard. In BR patch 2 the lightning atk power costs were raised even higher but the power cost nerfage on fire atks was reduced a bit, hopefully there will be less Sith lords out there now :). But then again after 7 months they still haven't managed to fix the -10% power cost you are supposed to get from speccing fire and damage from WoF and EoF is going down 10% :(

So, as I already said, your dev, who actually seems to do a good job, tested and updated. Good for RKs. We're still screwed as hell, with the power issues you dread so much being real for us since a couple months ago, slaves to the LI lottery and forced to used fugly xbows, doing sub-champ sub-rk dps, and still using the same skill rotation from back in the day when learning to kill Thorog.

You desire your damage scrolls get fixed? I want to be able to use -incoming damage scrolls on the melee weapon. I desire to be able to switch damage type like in SoA (westernesse, beleriand, ancient-dwarf), but it is unthinkable nowdays. We have a lot more issues as of currently.

I don't know how many pages there are of this "RK is worse" discussion (Looked at it, 5 pages), but it is complete bs. As a matter of fact, you started all this blaming hunters of your upcoming nerf... Then you tried to convince us all that the LI lottery is easier for us, when it isn't. As of now we also NEED power legacies to sustain damage, and we NEED crit legacies to do significant DPS, not a matter of wanting anything. If anything, most of our legacies suck, cause we don't have shiny direct damage enhacements ANYWHERE. In addition we NEED First Ages to get to be competitive, which you definitely don't (For you it is about a 2% total DPS upgrade, for us it is >10%). And we NEED lvl 59 Xbows, which you definitely don't, and most of us definitely hate. And we also can't max any 4-5 legacies on a third age as you do, we can barely max 1 of our 4 NEED legacies.

And regarding broken traits... We also have some broken and nerfed traits (Hail of Arrows used to be +25% crit chance and +25% critical multiplier, now it is 3600 crit rating=12-13%, which is ZERO for me, since when grouping I get to cap, Shot Through the Heart is also in rating... ETC ETC ETC)

You want to discuss RKs issues? Go to RK forums. This thread was about Hunter class discussion and issues. This forums is about hunters. You're now trolling and derailing here.

[Telaron70]

You want to discuss RKs issues? Go to RK forums. This thread was about Hunter class discussion and issues. This forums is about hunters. You're now trolling and derailing here.

Applauds!

While I am all for inter-class discussion I am not inclined to listen to ANYONE who comes here & idiotically states that whiney Hunters have got 3 other classes nerfed.

@ Emli if u have a problem with your class then tell your Dev - at least you have (a visible) one - don't blame us. I am slightly amused to see that you post twice as much on Hunter forums as you do on RK. I mean really, you should roll a Hunter mate if you like it here so much.

Anyway.... I've now forgotten what the hell we were whining about before we got derailed :D

[Emli]

So, as I already said, your dev, who actually seems to do a good job, tested and updated. Good for RKs. We're still screwed as hell, with the power issues you dread so much being real for us since a couple months ago, slaves to the LI lottery and forced to used fugly xbows, doing sub-champ sub-rk dps, and still using the same skill rotation from back in the day when learning to kill Thorog.

You desire your damage scrolls get fixed? I want to be able to use -incoming damage scrolls on the melee weapon. I desire to be able to switch damage type like in SoA (westernesse, beleriand, ancient-dwarf), but it is unthinkable nowdays. We have a lot more issues as of currently.

I don't know how many pages there are of this "RK is worse" discussion (Looked at it, 5 pages), but it is complete bs. As a matter of fact, you started all this blaming hunters of your upcoming nerf... Then you tried to convince us all that the LI lottery is easier for us, when it isn't. As of now we also NEED power legacies to sustain damage, and we NEED crit legacies to do significant DPS, not a matter of wanting anything. If anything, most of our legacies suck, cause we don't have shiny direct damage enhacements ANYWHERE. In addition we NEED First Ages to get to be competitive, which you definitely don't (For you it is about a 2% total DPS upgrade, for us it is >10%). And we NEED lvl 59 Xbows, which you definitely don't, and most of us definitely hate. And we also can't max any 4-5 legacies on a third age as you do, we can barely max 1 of our 4 NEED legacies.

And regarding broken traits... We also have some broken and nerfed traits (Hail of Arrows used to be +25% crit chance and +25% critical multiplier, now it is 3600 crit rating=12-13%, which is ZERO for me, since when grouping I get to cap, Shot Through the Heart is also in rating... ETC ETC ETC)

You want to discuss RKs issues? Go to RK forums. This thread was about Hunter class discussion and issues. This forums is about hunters. You're now trolling and derailing here.

Xbows are ugly... Try hitting things with 2 rocks in your hands. Slaves to the LI lottery... just like everyone else. Stuck with the same skills as in the SoA days... Hunters aren't the only class who didn't get many new toys to play with, it was just a 10 level raise, not many new skills fit in that cap.

And I'm pretty sure you can change your weapon damage type, aren't there scrolls from the DV instances?

And I still think that it was hunters like the guy my first post was responding to that caused this nerf (not all of them). When enough people whine then DEV's get influenced, hunters like the guy my first post was responding to blamed all the troubles of the hunter on RK's and the DEV's nerfed it, RK's who got annoyed at this redicolous nerf whined aswell and the nerf got slightly lowered.

Ok the LI lottery might not be easier for you right now, it is quite balanced, but it will be much easier for you once book 8 comes. Just get 4 tokens (which will be easy to get as there will be 2 resets for turtle and watcher + the new raid) and you get to pick what ever speed and type of weapon you want and you will have a uber weapon. A first age with no legacys but maxed out weapon DPS is better than any 3rd age you will find.

Yes you NEED power legacys to sustain your damage, but you don't NEED crit legacys to do significant dps, the damage added by crit multipliers is insignificant. But if you consider those NEED legacys then the RK crit multiplier would be a NEED legacy aswell, meaning that RK's still have more. And you do have a shiny direct damage bonus, infact it's the biggest bonus legacy in the game, it's called weapon DPS, increasing that will get your damage to increase by 25%, it is the best legacy in the game, something that RK's lack as weapon DPS is not tied to tactical damage.

And no, we can't max 4-5 legacys on a third age, why do you think RK stones have more legendary points? And really if you consider -power costs and +crit multipliers need legacys then a RK has 6 of those, which definately need a second or first age with tier 6's to max out.

Yes, the thread did get slightly derailed but if you take a look at the first post it's pretty much about RK vs. hunter and it sparked quite an interesting discussion about classes. Hard to consider this trolling.

[Emli]

Applauds!

While I am all for inter-class discussion I am not inclined to listen to ANYONE who comes here & idiotically states that whiney Hunters have got 3 other classes nerfed.

@ Emli if u have a problem with your class then tell your Dev - at least you have (a visible) one - don't blame us. I am slightly amused to see that you post twice as much on Hunter forums as you do on RK. I mean really, you should roll a Hunter mate if you like it here so much.

Anyway.... I've now forgotten what the hell we were whining about before we got derailed :D

Hard to communicate with our class DEV when we aren't allowed to post on US forums.
I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the whiney ones that post false information and get other classes nerfed. And the reason I've posted here twice as much is because the discussion about the classes got very interesting and I enjoyed debating here, I'll leave you alone now If you want though.

[mYhero]

nd no, we can't max 4-5 legacys on a third age, why do you think RK stones have more legendary points? And really if you consider -power costs and +crit multipliers need legacys then a RK has 6 of those, which definately need a second or first age with tier 6's to max out.
Take a look at the legacys point costs before you post, honestly. You don't have to invest in DPS at least.


Yes you NEED power legacys to sustain your damage, but you don't NEED crit legacys to do significant dps, the damage added by crit multipliers is insignificant.

21% Crit Rate, 19% 1Age Crit Dmg boost on Fokus and/or Induction based skills.
1300 Crit = 247dmg BONUS.
Penetrating shot = 3secs CD.
Rain of Arrows = 10sec CD.
Imp. Swift = 10sec CD.

Guess what? our DMG is at least 80% Skill based(50%Focus,30%Induction). 10% Blindside / Melee and 10% autohits.

Obviously not_ significant boosting 21% of your 80% total DMG by 2x19%. :bw:


Still Rks need to be nerfed, at least they start to get the Power issues like hunters have ;)

[OMWiener]

You must admit that getting some tablets and finding a good RK third age is a lot easier then getting a first age (even in B8). And hunters NEED a first age to keep up with an RK. That's why many here believe RKs to have it easier.

You see, we both have to deal with the legacy lottery BUT you can do that by handing in some tablets and getting lvl59 third age. Now hunters have to get a first age and deal with the legacy lottery at the *same* time. Now the chances of getting a first age with good legacies are greatly smaller then only getting good legacies ;)

You act like it's a good thing to be able to lvl dps. Nope, i would rather not be dependent on the color of my legendary to be able to do my role. I would much rather (similar to the rk) be able to go to some barter guy, trade in 500 tables untill i have a good third age and be only marginally worse then some guy with a lucky first age. And wait patiently for some luck to come my way. A hunter with a good third age will be around 10% worse then some lucky guy with a first age and will be frustrated and die of old age untill he gets a first age with good legacies ;) See the difference? :P

[Emli]

Take a look at the legacys point costs before you post, honestly. You don't have to invest in DPS at least.




21% Crit Rate, 19% 1Age Crit Dmg boost on Fokus and/or Induction based skills.
1300 Crit = 247dmg BONUS.
Penetrating shot = 3secs CD.
Rain of Arrows = 10sec CD.
Imp. Swift = 10sec CD.

Guess what? our DMG is at least 80% Skill based(50%Focus,30%Induction). 10% Blindside / Melee and 10% autohits.

Obviously not_ significant boosting 21% of your 80% total DMG by 2x19%. :bw:


Still Rks need to be nerfed, at least they start to get the Power issues like hunters have ;)

I would love to have a legacy like weapon DPS that adds 25% damage to my every single attack.

max crit rate is 15%. You do 19% higher damage on 15% of your attacks. That's around 3% overall damage increase. Compared to 25% that is indeed insignificant.

A class that isn't doing best single target DPS needs to be nerfed? Then you mayaswell ask for a hunter nerf too.

[Emli]

You must admit that getting some tablets and finding a good RK third age is a lot easier then getting a first age (even in B8). And hunters NEED a first age to keep up with an RK. That's why many here believe RKs to have it easier.

You see, we both have to deal with the legacy lottery BUT you can do that by handing in some tablets and getting lvl59 third age. Now hunters have to get a first age and deal with the legacy lottery at the *same* time. Now the chances of getting a first age with good legacies are greatly smaller then only getting good legacies ;)

You act like it's a good thing to be able to lvl dps. Nope, i would rather not be dependent on the color of my legendary to be able to do my role. I would much rather (similar to the rk) be able to go to some barter guy, trade in 500 tables untill i have a good third age and be only marginally worse then some guy with a lucky first age. And wait patiently for some luck to come my way. A hunter with a good third age will be around 10% worse then some lucky guy with a first age and will be frustrated and die of old age untill he gets a first age with good legacies ;) See the difference? :P

But statistically finding a LI with 6 right tier 6 legacys is just as hard as getting a 1st age with 3-4 legacys. It's not harder for a hunter, it's different, hunters die of old age trying to get a 1st age, RK's die of old age attempting to beat the RNG and obtain 6 right tier 6 legacys.

A hunter having a third age loses 10% compared to the lucky guy with a first age.
A rk with 4 correct legacys loses 10% compared to the guy with 6 legacys.

[OMWiener]

But statistically finding a LI with 6 right tier 6 legacys is just as hard as getting a 1st age with 3-4 legacys. It's not harder for a hunter, it's different, hunters die of old age trying to get a 1st age, RK's die of old age attempting to beat the RNG and obtain 6 right tier 6 legacys.

A hunter having a third age loses 10% compared to the lucky guy with a first age.
A rk with 4 correct legacys loses 10% compared to the guy with 6 legacys.

Mmmhh selective arguing ftl? I'll quote your earlier post:

For example, I doubt that weapon DPS classes have legacys such as WOF damage and WOF DoT damage, which both give up to +13% overall damage, meaning +26% overall damage just from 2 legacys. Add to that Fury of Storm legacy +13% more damage and -power cost legacy for -13% power cost for all skills you already have 4 absolutely necessary legacys for a DPS RK + all the pretty bonus legacys like +39% crit multiplier and individual skill bonuses.

I count 3 necessary legacies. I don't count power cost, because we have the same one. So your 3 needed legacies which you can easily get by turning in some tablets against my 2.6 speed first age? I wonder what an average player would get first: 500 tablets or a first age....?

Please, the difference between an RK with those 3 legacies and one with some extra "fluff" legacies is hardly 10 percent. You're trying to blow things up in favour of your own argument. I would love my dps to be fixed and the same for third/second/first age. Then I would at least have a chance to perform my role without resorting to the orange color. What you seem to forget is that the average player will probably never see a first age, unless he buys it of the auction house. Now imagine a class who needs a first age to perform on par with an RK with a third age. Yep, you just gimped 80% of your hunter player base ;)

[Emli]

Mmmhh selective arguing ftl? I'll quote your earlier post:



I count 3 necessary legacies. I don't count power cost, because we have the same one. So your 3 needed legacies which you can easily get by turning in some tablets against my 2.6 speed first age? I wonder what an average player would get first: 500 tablets or a first age....?



The 6 aint necessary just as the 3-4 for hunters aren't necessary, it was just the ultimate LI comparison.

In reality if you already get a first age as a hunter, you are pretty much set, your weapon will be better than any 3rd age, so you don't have to fight the RNG.

A RK doesn't have to get the first age, but always has to fight the RNG as he needs those specific 2-3 legacys, if he doesn't get them he may well be better off with a non-LI.

And an average player.. with 2 turtle raids a week would probably get a first age before 500 tablets, I for one have yet to obtain 500 of those.

The problem that a hunter needs a first age to keep up with a RK isn't because of the LI's but because the hunter nerf went too far.

[Scatha the Worm]

The 6 aint necessary just as the 3-4 for hunters aren't necessary, it was just the ultimate LI comparison.

In reality if you already get a first age as a hunter, you are pretty much set, your weapon will be better than any 3rd age, so you don't have to fight the RNG.

A RK doesn't have to get the first age, but always has to fight the RNG as he needs those specific 2-3 legacys, if he doesn't get them he may well be better off with a non-LI.

And an average player.. with 2 turtle raids a week would probably get a first age before 500 tablets, I for one have yet to obtain 500 of those.

The problem that a hunter needs a first age to keep up with a RK isn't because of the LI's but because the hunter nerf went too far.

A FA enough for it all? Ask a champ what they would do with a FA without Fervour or AoE. It's the same for us, except we have no direct damage legacies. That just means we have no good legacies, not that legacies are meaningless for us compared to DPS.

It doesn't matter how you try to put it, a FA bow with meh legacies won't be top weapon.

[OMWiener]

The 6 aint necessary just as the 3-4 for hunters aren't necessary, it was just the ultimate LI comparison.

In reality if you already get a first age as a hunter, you are pretty much set, your weapon will be better than any 3rd age, so you don't have to fight the RNG.

A RK doesn't have to get the first age, but always has to fight the RNG as he needs those specific 2-3 legacys, if he doesn't get them he may well be better off with a non-LI.

And an average player.. with 2 turtle raids a week would probably get a first age before 500 tablets, I for one have yet to obtain 500 of those.

The problem that a hunter needs a first age to keep up with a RK isn't because of the LI's but because the hunter nerf went too far.

I have to fight the RNG of winning rolls though and as of b7 the random number generator of the weapon ;) (will change in b8). Oh and i don't think the average joe does the turtle twice a week, because an average player has to pug it.

Honestly mate, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you are seriously arguing that getting some tablets (If you haven't gotten 500 tablets yet over the course of the game, i wonder what you have been doing. Anyone can get 5 tablets a day...) and turning in weapons is easier then joining a raid, beating it, winning the roll on all the coins, then you must be playing another game...

Btw you do know that in a future book, they will allow you to change legacies (as per last dev chat)?

Anyway, I just don't get that the devs are allowing for such dicrepancies between weapons concerning both age and legacies. I mean: how do they balance a class? I'm assuming a hunter is balanced for a first age (otherwise he would be overpowered) and an RK is balanced for those needed legacies. How ****ed-up is that? I'm all for rewards ingame, but i think it's fundamental to a game that the differences don't become too high. So legacies are great, but i'm sure if they decreased the base power cost for hunters a bit, we would be happy with a legacy that only goes to -3 or 5% power cost. Same for RK's then, increase base damage and give a +5% WOF damage legacy. Same for first ages etc...They are really gimping the balance in this game.

[mYhero]

Emli you need to learn the basics of hunters. Else there is no point in discussing.

max crit rate is 15%. You do 19% higher damage on 15% of your attacks. That's around 3% overall damage increase. Compared to 25% that is indeed insignificant.
15% Cap for Rating, + DEV wich is at LEAST 6%. mine is 6.5% btw ;)
21%. Oh and some legacys ignore the crit cap. ;):D

Indeed comparing to the DPS boost thanks to leveling "DPS" on the weapon, the crit legacies are no big deal, doesn't change the fact that you need to level DPS. And then Legacys. And when it comes down to legacys. They'r the most powerfull.

Speaking of leveling DPS, how come i need to "waste" points on my Legendary to get equal damage to a RK who does only care for the "bonus" Legacys.
Thanks for proving me right. Trap, snapped - gotcha. :D

[Emli]

A FA enough for it all? Ask a champ what they would do with a FA without Fervour or AoE. It's the same for us, except we have no direct damage legacies. That just means we have no good legacies, not that legacies are meaningless for us compared to DPS.

It doesn't matter how you try to put it, a FA bow with meh legacies won't be top weapon.

That's just champions having an unfair advantage, +25% from weapon dps AND the direct damage bonuses are just amazing.

It won't be top weapon but it will be better than any 3rd age, or do you know of any hunter legacys that make up for the 10% overall DPS gain of a first age over third age.

[Emli]

I have to fight the RNG of winning rolls though and as of b7 the random number generator of the weapon ;) (will change in b8). Oh and i don't think the average joe does the turtle twice a week, because an average player has to pug it.

Honestly mate, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you are seriously arguing that getting some tablets (If you haven't gotten 500 tablets yet over the course of the game, i wonder what you have been doing. Anyone can get 5 tablets a day...) and turning in weapons is easier then joining a raid, beating it, winning the roll on all the coins, then you must be playing another game...

Btw you do know that in a future book, they will allow you to change legacies (as per last dev chat)?

Anyway, I just don't get that the devs are allowing for such dicrepancies between weapons concerning both age and legacies. I mean: how do they balance a class? I'm assuming a hunter is balanced for a first age (otherwise he would be overpowered) and an RK is balanced for those needed legacies. How ****ed-up is that? I'm all for rewards ingame, but i think it's fundamental to a game that the differences don't become too high. So legacies are great, but i'm sure if they decreased the base power cost for hunters a bit, we would be happy with a legacy that only goes to -3 or 5% power cost. Same for RK's then, increase base damage and give a +5% WOF damage legacy. Same for first ages etc...They are really gimping the balance in this game.

I PuG the turtle all the time, it's such an easy fight and takes so little time. Even if it is easier to get 500 tablets then that doesn't guarantee you a good weapon, out of all the tablets I've turned in, I've not once found a LI that had WoF damage and WoF DoT damage at tier 6, now getting 6 of those for the ultimate LI, the chances are closer to 1 in a million than 1 in 500.

Joining turtle raid, beating it in 5 minutes and have a 33% chance of winning a coin (turtle drops 4) so if you have completely average luck you will get a first age 59 crossbow in exactly 6 weeks. And that's if you completely ignore the watcher and the new 6 boss raid.

Allowing to change legacys is great news though, although we don't know how it is going to look like.

Agreed on the last points, LI's make far too big of an impact on a class.

[Emli]

Emli you need to learn the basics of hunters. Else there is no point in discussing.


15% Cap for Rating, + DEV wich is at LEAST 6%. mine is 6.5% btw ;)
21%. Oh and some legacys ignore the crit cap. ;):D

Indeed comparing to the DPS boost thanks to leveling "DPS" on the weapon, the crit legacies are no big deal, doesn't change the fact that you need to level DPS. And then Legacys. And when it comes down to legacys. They'r the most powerfull.

Speaking of leveling DPS, how come i need to "waste" points on my Legendary to get equal damage to a RK who does only care for the "bonus" Legacys.
Thanks for proving me right. Trap, snapped - gotcha. :D

Why does everyone think that spending points on weapon DPS is "wasting" it. It is just like every other legacy, only that it is exceptionally powerfull. If you consider that "wasting", then RK's are also "wasting" their points on WoF damage and WoF DoT damage legacys, just like you are on weapon DPS. Hunters just have weapon dps to level while RK's have those 2 damage legacys to level, all other legacys for both classes are "bonus" legacys.

[James_Ross]

Don't be so obtuse, he means that spending points on weapon DPS for a RK is a waste, but for a hunter its a necessity. RK's then have the luxury of pumping all their points into legacys, hunters do not as to even start to compete in terms of damage they must max the DPS legacy first and above all others.

But this was already covered a few pages back, along with some description of the other 'compulsory' legacies for RK's.

[Silmahad]

My lvl 60 FA bow had utter crap on it as legacies after identifying. I was lucky to have now a rank 6 focus crit multi and a rank 3 less powercosts for inductions skills legacy.

I maximized dps, maximized the Focus crit multi and a now have the less power costs to indution skills legacy leveled up to lvl 6. The LI lvl is now 41. Even if I am so invredible lucky to get a another critmulti or another less power cost legacy at lvl 50, I won't have enough points to max all three in the end, it will just cost to much points.

This is just the sad truth.

[Redeemer]

Don't be so obtuse, he means that spending points on weapon DPS for a RK is a waste, but for a hunter its a necessity. RK's then have the luxury of pumping all their points into legacys, hunters do not as to even start to compete in terms of damage they must max the DPS legacy first and above all others.

But this was already covered a few pages back, along with some description of the other 'compulsory' legacies for RK's.
I'm just.. amazed that people can't understand this yet.

Do you think RKs would be complaining about "having" to put points into DPS if it gave them a massive boost to damage? Of course they wouldn't. As it stands DPS - a "legacy" present on every LI, that always costs the same to level up - is absolutely useless to purely tactical classes. Therefore you can consider direct +damage legacies to be equivalent to ranking DPS, and they only go to 12-13%, which is much much less than you get from 7 ranks of DPS.

Oh, and some people don't really seem to understand critical multipliers. +19% crit multiplier is NOT equal to +19% crit damage.

If we say the average of all crits (normal crits, devs, and those with extra crit magnitude) is 200% of normal damage, with a +19% multiplier legacy you would do 219% damage.
For a shot that does say 200 damage, you would do 400 damage without the legacy, and 438 damage with it. I.e, the actual bonus to crits is closer to 10%. Which, for a 20% crit chance, you're gaining 2% overall damage (and that's with both legacies maxed, ignoring damage that comes from AA/melee). A.k.a insignificant.

[Davout]

I'm just.. amazed that people can't understand this yet.

Do you think RKs would be complaining about "having" to put points into DPS if it gave them a massive boost to damage? Of course they wouldn't. As it stands DPS - a "legacy" present on every LI, that always costs the same to level up - is absolutely useless to purely tactical classes. Therefore you can consider direct +damage legacies to be equivalent to ranking DPS, and they only go to 12-13%, which is much much less than you get from 7 ranks of DPS.

Oh, and some people don't really seem to understand critical multipliers. +19% crit multiplier is NOT equal to +19% crit damage.

If we say the average of all crits (normal crits, devs, and those with extra crit magnitude) is 200% of normal damage, with a +19% multiplier legacy you would do 219% damage.
For a shot that does say 200 damage, you would do 400 damage without the legacy, and 438 damage with it. I.e, the actual bonus to crits is closer to 10%. Which, for a 20% crit chance, you're gaining 2% overall damage (and that's with both legacies maxed, ignoring damage that comes from AA/melee). A.k.a insignificant.

I was under the impression that several classes/skills had their crits at 1.5x not 2.0x. Devstating crits were at 2.0x. This would mean that it would be 169% and not 219%. Thus the increase would be more like 13%, still a small amount. I may of course be wrong for some classes.

As PhilG states the only 2 legacies that a hunter gets that increase DPS are insignificant as they are crit multiplier damages. For a L58+ bow, of those 2 legacies you have a 2/15 chance of getting 1 at first inspection multiplied by the number of legacies on the inspection (2 to 4). There after you have a 1/14 chance of getting the second legacy. Multiplied by 6 (max legacies-the already with 1 crit multiplier). In short you have on average of
3*2/15 + 6*1/14 chance of getting the 2 legacies you want.
Or about 83% if you take the bow upto level 50. Of course this is the chance of getting the legacies you want, not in getting the tiers that you want. The fact that these legacies add little to your overall DPS does mean we put too much into it.

All this is by the by. At the end of the day I still find that for sustained DPS the average RK out DPS's the average hunter and there must be a reason for this. The talk about the legacies is a side note.

[Redeemer]

I believe the standard for auto attacks is 150%, but alot of skills have additional crit multipliers, and there's the 2+3 bonus from the BM line. 200% was just a figure plucked out of the air for an average of all crits, devs etc.

[Scatha the Worm]

I believe the standard for auto attacks is 150%, but alot of skills have additional crit multipliers, and there's the 2+3 bonus from the BM line. 200% was just a figure plucked out of the air for an average of all crits, devs etc.

For auto attacks it is 125%, for skills it is 150%. In addition, there are the bonus critical multipliers from traits, set bonuses and legacies, that add usually just to skill critical damage. For devastates it is 200%, and this also get the bonuses from critical multipliers, in addition to Devastate Magnitude modifiers from settings or self-buffs like the champion gloves.

At least that is how I think it works.

[mYhero]

I'm just.. amazed that people can't understand this yet.

Do you think RKs would be complaining about "having" to put points into DPS if it gave them a massive boost to damage? Of course they wouldn't. As it stands DPS - a "legacy" present on every LI, that always costs the same to level up - is absolutely useless to purely tactical classes. Therefore you can consider direct +damage legacies to be equivalent to ranking DPS, and they only go to 12-13%, which is much much less than you get from 7 ranks of DPS.
As stated the 3th time now.
Hunter = DPS to EVEN compete.
RK = legacys Dmg bonuses, additional.
There is no point in discussing. Of course some RKs would prefer to get a dmg boost as easy as lvl DPS on a legendary for a Hunter. But as it stands they don't need it to compete. ;)
Well it is arguably. I'm not a narrow minded fool, a few percent of those neat legacys are needed for a RK to compete. Still he does not need to max them.

Oh, and some people don't really seem to understand critical multipliers. +19% crit multiplier is NOT equal to +19% crit damage.

If we say the average of all crits (normal crits, devs, and those with extra crit magnitude) is 200% of normal damage, with a +19% multiplier legacy you would do 219% damage.
For a shot that does say 200 damage, you would do 400 damage without the legacy, and 438 damage with it. I.e, the actual bonus to crits is closer to 10%. Which, for a 20% crit chance, you're gaining 2% overall damage (and that's with both legacies maxed, ignoring damage that comes from AA/melee). A.k.a insignificant.

Nah your just flexing around with numbers. It's 19% each for those types.

But It' doesn't matter that my crit legacys theoretically add 2-5% dmg total.
What your theoretical % sheet is truly lacking is the important part. Skill /DMG - Time ration.

Speaking on a singel mob bias, % values don't even out. I do crit occasinaly 2 out of 3 pen. shoots in a row. Each around 690dmg - 800dmg (depending on the mob). That's 152DMG each crit. x2 = 304DMG additional. vs a globsnaga Guard with 3800 Moral. Less than 10% dmg yeah, but that saved me 2 Quickshoots or an additional pen wich could be on CD.
Everything that saves me 2 -1 additional skill attacks in a 15Second fight is win. That's why i needed only 15secs not 18secs. Truly insignificant. :bw:

To make it short, we don't have a linear dmg per skill distribution . Everything that gives us a small increase in our powerfull attacks, saves some light skills (quickshot) thus a LOT of time.
I hope this may contribute to your understanding why crit legacys on a bow, if aviable, are more than just nice to have.

[Redeemer]

We all know runekeepers are overpowered at the moment, and they're getting nerfed in book 8. How this means getting the right LI is easier is beyond me. After B8 it will be 10x easier for a hunter.
Speaking on a singel mob bias, % values don't even out. I do crit occasinaly 2 out of 3 pen. shoots in a row. Each around 690dmg - 800dmg (depending on the mob). That's 152DMG each crit. x2 = 304DMG additional. vs a globsnaga Guard with 3800 Moral. Less than 10% dmg yeah, but that saved me 2 Quickshoots or an additional pen wich could be on CD.
You can't draw comparisons between things based on occasional events.. you can only compare them using statistics. You will statistically crit 1/5 shots at maxed crit. My (rough, but within 1% absolutely max) calculations are correct. +19% multiplier is NOT 19% damage, you really need to look at the game mechanics more if you're trying to dispute that (which - from your calculation of +152 damage (which is completely wrong), it seems you are. The additional damage, taking multiplier to be roughly 170% (base + BM bonuses), from an 800 damage shot is 90).

Your example of 2 in 3 shots critting making crit multipliers much more useful is just the same as me saying I often crit 0/10 shots, making them totally useless (i.e completely and utterly wrong).

[mYhero]

You can't draw comparisons between things based on occasional events.. you can only compare them using statistics. You will statistically crit 1/5 shots at maxed crit. My (rough, but within 1% absolutely max) calculations are correct.
Your example of 2 in 3 shots critting making crit multipliers much more useful is just the same as me saying I often crit 0/10 shots, making them totally useless (i.e completely and utterly wrong).

READ what i WROTE: Speaking on a single mob bias, % values don't even out
Now don't tell me you just did figure it out. Of course i don't crit always 2/3.
Granted my bad, focus multi only adds to the crit multi not the total ammount of crit dmg. been in a hurry ;)

Your assumption to determine the usefullness of a legacy only by dmg is wrong. It's not about the ammount of dmg it adds, it's about adding.
When an Orc has 2HP, i still need to use a full skill. One crit, i don't. Be it even just 1% total dmg. your calculation eludes.

I take focus crit multiplyer over any other legacy. It safes more power than -10% could ever do. It yields more dps than any other aviable for a Legendary hunter weapon. That's why your calculation and statistic means nothing. :D
I don't judge the usefulness of a car by the ammount of color involed on repainting the hood.


How this means getting the right LI is easier is beyond me. After B8 it will be 10x easier for a hunter.Huh what? Oh right only hunters can trade at b8 for 1st ages [sarkasm]

[Redeemer]

When an Orc has 2HP, i still need to use a full skill. One crit, i don't. Be it even just 1% total dmg. your calculation eludes.
In this very specific scenario, yes crit multiplier might be useful. But in others - Say the mob has 500 HP left, and your normal crit is for 600 - The crit multiplier is wasted, as you're over-killing it anyway. Those kind of situations will on average cancel each other out.. giving rise to DPS calculations.
Huh what? Oh right only hunters can trade at b8 for 1st ages [sarkasm]
When hunters barter a first age bow, they will know that DPS will always be on it, always cost the same amount to rank, and always make a massive difference to damage. Other than possibly power cost legacies, a first age bow is always better than a 2nd age, regardless of legacies (the increased DPS outweighs any legacies, including crit multipliers, as I've shown).
A RK stone has to get a specific set of legacies, at good tiers, to be better than a 2nd (or even 3rd age) with decent legacies, as the DPS makes 0 difference. So, if you already have a good LI, the chances of the first age stone you get being better than your current weapon are pretty slim. As a hunter it's almost a guarantee, unless you're exceptionally lucky with a 2nd age (& unlucky with 1st age).