Book 7 changes

[Cruciblious]

What actually happened in book 7 to annoy all hunters so much?

I finished playing last autumn and came back now, so I missed a lot.. and my hunter feels about the same now as it was all the way back then. Was our DPS jacked up with book 6 and re-nerfed with book 7, or something else..?

[Amphoras]

With MoM, weapon damage got a massive increase. With B7, its been taken back down again. I think some hunters skills had the base damage changed as well, which has annoyed lots of people.

[MéLAnoR]

Crucimli few questions :
Do you feel your hunter is improved with 10 level increase and money paid expansion considering solo and group play?
Do you feel hunter class has evolved and become more fun to play?

since you havent see the early moria hunter imo you can answer objectively to these questions :)

[Cruciblious]

Crucimli few questions :
Do you feel your hunter is improved with 10 level increase and money paid expansion considering solo and group play?
Do you feel hunter class has evolved and become more fun to play?

since you havent see the early moria hunter imo you can answer objectively to these questions :)

Sure :)

The 7 level increase has brought about a huge increase in my DPS, mostly due to the new trait system (bowmaster added damge) and the fact that legendary weapons have a huge DPS. I really enjoy playing it solo. Power consumption is the main issue, but I didn't expect to be a God.. ;)

Group play is about the same as before, really. I nuke, I hit hard. I'm a bit disappointed that other classes can hit as hard, but that's the way it goes. The only things we can do is single-target DPS - our AoE is terrible, we have very little CC, so I feel we should by right be the hardest hitting single target. I'm not sure whether that's the case at the moment, I'd have to do more research.

I don't feel the hunter has evolved much. It's the same as ever, which is a tad disappointing. I come on to find that most over classes now have a secondary role - Guardians are now much more damaging if they want to be, RKs can heal OR DPS, LMs can CC or DPS.. but we're stuck doing one thing. I don't mind that, but that does mean we haven't evolved.

The skills from 50-60 were a let down. 'Improved' swift bow. 'Improved' merciful shot. I mean, I love the skills, but I don't want improved ones - I want new ones! Distracting shot is a nice exception :)

We are definitely better solo than pre-MoM. I'd say we're a bit worse in a group, though.

[MéLAnoR]

Sure :)

The 7 level increase has brought about a huge increase in my DPS, mostly due to the new trait system (bowmaster added damge) and the fact that legendary weapons have a huge DPS. I really enjoy playing it solo. Power consumption is the main issue, but I didn't expect to be a God.. ;)

Group play is about the same as before, really. I nuke, I hit hard. I'm a bit disappointed that other classes can hit as hard, but that's the way it goes. The only things we can do is single-target DPS - our AoE is terrible, we have very little CC, so I feel we should by right be the hardest hitting single target. I'm not sure whether that's the case at the moment, I'd have to do more research.

I don't feel the hunter has evolved much. It's the same as ever, which is a tad disappointing. I come on to find that most over classes now have a secondary role - Guardians are now much more damaging if they want to be, RKs can heal OR DPS, LMs can CC or DPS.. but we're stuck doing one thing. I don't mind that, but that does mean we haven't evolved.

The skills from 50-60 were a let down. 'Improved' swift bow. 'Improved' merciful shot. I mean, I love the skills, but I don't want improved ones - I want new ones! Distracting shot is a nice exception :)

We are definitely better solo than pre-MoM. I'd say we're a bit worse in a group, though.good to hear you have fun.
Yes i feel the same ; feel liek im playing SoA hunter.

[Ingaras]

Group play is about the same as before, really. I nuke, I hit hard. I'm a bit disappointed that other classes can hit as hard, but that's the way it goes. The only things we can do is single-target DPS - our AoE is terrible, we have very little CC, so I feel we should by right be the hardest hitting single target. I'm not sure whether that's the case at the moment, I'd have to do more research.


Here's why a lot of people are upset. Before book 7 hunters were noticably and with distance the best single-target dps. It meant that switching "random dps class" for a hunter made fights noticably shorter and by that easier. Right now, as you say, it's not obvious anymore that we are the best single-target dps class, which means it's hard to justify taking a hunter in a fellowship, where you could also take "random dps class" which probably can do other stuff as well if things don't go as expected.

[Swampster]

I'd disagree, I'd say we're worse in both solo and group play at the moment than we ever have been, but it's matter of personal perspective really.

To be fair hunters were overpowered pre book 7, and I think it's just a case of swinging the nerf bat a little too vigorously. It's like they got together and said, 'so how can we sort out these overpowered hunters!? lets come up with some ideas...' so they did, and instead of using one or two of those ideas.. they just used the whole job lot.

Personally, I think they should have just made the crits a little bit more sensible (8k crits were just stupid), and nerfed our weapons the same as everybody else's... but left the skills alone, that would have done the trick IMO. But no, they did the skills as well, they nerfed some class traits too... on top of which keeping power demands the same, but lowering the effect the BoTR has!

But, going back to that matter of perspective.. all I can say is, that I'm at an all time low ebb as far as this game goes.. in the almost 21 months I've had my hunter, I can say personally I'm enjoying playing him less than I have ever done in that time... but then the same is true about the whole game in general.

[Calladan]

Yeah the nerf on BotR was unexpected and I cant see the reason behind it, I just cant get it. Nerfing a Legendary Trait that way is not right.
DPS nerf? Well why bother? It's bit frustrating (not to be the only and unquestionable Top Single Target DPSer) and slows things down (longer fights) but that's all. At the beginning u want to delete your hunter, but it's a matter of adaptation.

[Jaldorian]

Lorien was the end of the road for me i was finally home with my people & thats it there is no clear role for the hunter now apart from being a taxi service.

[Malrik]

I started a hunter post b7, now beeing in lvl 40s i really enjoy it. Playing as dwarven trapper of foes i find the game so easy, comparing the other classes i played.

I dont really know whats the deal really, i guess people were too spoiled by their high dmg numbers and were upset when turbine took it away. Kinda like when you take away candy from small child.

BUt judging by the populations. If you saw 70% hunters before b7 it meant, the class itself is too powerful and easy to play. Now, while i do level i barely see any hunters around, but i surely see more RKs :D.

[Cruciblious]

What happened to BoTR?

[Scappydog]

They reduced the power restored on hit. Pre-book 7 it was 13-15..now its 11-13 if I recall correctly.

[Silmahad]

They reduced the power restored on hit. Pre-book 7 it was 13-15..now its 11-13 if I recall correctly.

Someone stated that in icpr, it's a nerf of around 150 icpr. Add to that the longer fights (less damage overall) and - tada - -% power costs on bow/crossbows is now one of the most important legacies, Celebrant pots are now one of your most welcome friends and High Concentration is deep in love with you.

Besides the weapon dps nerf and the BoR nerf, it should be mentioned that the third shot of ISB was nerfed for less damage and the total bonus for S:S with the BM traitline was nerfed by 5% too.

We should be exact.

[Swampster]

I dont really know whats the deal really, i guess people were too spoiled by their high dmg numbers and were upset when turbine took it away. Kinda like when you take away candy from small child.

Oh do get a grip... it really annoys me when people spout utter drivel like this! Do you hang around in Trollshaws much? If not you should do!

Like I said previously, I've been playing a Hunter almost entirely for the better part of 2 years... nobody has suggested hunter's were overpowered before Moria, and most people agree (including myself) that they were overpowered during Moria, until book 7 that is. Moria only represents a small amount of my overall game time as a hunter, and yet I'm now enjoying it less than at ANY OTHER TIME in those 21 MONTHS!!

Just a minor point btw... but oddly enough a hunter is SUPPOSED to have high damage numbers.. considering it's role is as a nuker!

So please get over your superiority complex!

[Swampster]

Someone stated that in icpr, it's a nerf of around 150 icpr. Add to that the longer fights (less damage overall) and - tada - -% power costs on bow/crossbows is now one of the most important legacies, Celebrant pots are now one of your most welcome friends and High Concentration is deep in love with you.

Besides the weapon dps nerf and the BoR nerf, it should be mentioned that the third shot of ISB was nerfed for less damage and the total bonus for S:S with the BM traitline was nerfed by 5% too.

We should be exact.

Don't forget the Merciful Shot Critical Class trait was also nerfed by 50% also.

[Silmahad]

Don't forget the Merciful Shot Critical Class trait was also nerfed by 50% also.


Ah, yes and to add a last thing...I am absolutely convinced, that Turbine increased Block/Parry/Evade rates of mobs, maybe only certain mobs, but neverthless there happened something. Some people stated they would crit less, which could be explained by more Blocks/Parries/Evades or at least partially Blocks/Parries/Evades. I doubt that even a partially blocked/parried/evaded shot is able to crit.

[Swampster]

Ah, yes and to add a last thing...I am absolutely convinced, that Turbine increased Block/Parry/Evade rates of mobs, maybe only certain mobs, but neverthless there happened something. Some people stated they would crit less, which could be explained by more more Blocks/Parries/Evades or at least partially Blocks/Parries/Evades. I doubt that even a partially blocked/parried/evaded shot is able to crit.

Yep indeed, I'm absolutely certain I've had the occasional Heartseeker evaded... well acutally I know I've fired off HS which registered no damage at all, which by the description of the skill shouldn't happen!..

[MéLAnoR]

Ah, yes and to add a last thing...I am absolutely convinced, that Turbine increased Block/Parry/Evade rates of mobs, maybe only certain mobs, but neverthless there happened something. Some people stated they would crit less, which could be explained by more more Blocks/Parries/Evades or at least partially Blocks/Parries/Evades. I doubt that even a partially blocked/parried/evaded shot is able to crit.Try switching to endurinc precison after slowing your target it helps a bit.

[Lenin_]

Yep indeed, I'm absolutely certain I've had the occasional Heartseeker evaded... well acutally I know I've fired off HS which registered no damage at all, which by the description of the skill shouldn't happen!..

It does not miss on target of your level or lower. Some mobs in Lothlorien are lvl 61, so it is possible to miss HS on them.

[Calladan]

The thing that really ****ed me off is that our Bow Chants are nerfed too. Used to have loads of them and use them frequently, now they are just a waste of my Scholars mats. Now tier 5 and tier 6 chants are the same with the -0.1 modifier instead of the -1100 ranged mitigation (tier 6) used to have.

[Swampster]

It does not miss on target of your level or lower. Some mobs in Lothlorien are lvl 61, so it is possible to miss HS on them.

I can assure you I have missed on level mobs with HS at least twice!

[Sidamos]

Someone stated that in icpr, it's a nerf of around 150 icpr. Add to that the longer fights (less damage overall) and - tada - -% power costs on bow/crossbows is now one of the most important legacies, Celebrant pots are now one of your most welcome friends and High Concentration is deep in love with you.


150 ICPR would mean 50 skills per minute - hu ?

[Hardowise]

What actually happened in book 7 to annoy all hunters so much?

I finished playing last autumn and came back now, so I missed a lot.. and my hunter feels about the same now as it was all the way back then. Was our DPS jacked up with book 6 and re-nerfed with book 7, or something else..?

Our dps was reduced by about 40%, people say it was high but for 99% of hunters it was only on par with RKs at best and our power managment kicked to death as well.

We are now back to our taxi status (ahh home sweet home) except most instances have summoning horns.... As shown by the survey on the gen forum we are now the second lowest dps class in game (way lower than a dps spec guardian) and our functionality to groups is now next to useless.

And this all came about because some leet cyber kids would spend 2 days trying every buff they could get and HS away like mad just to get there one uber crit so they could boost there epeen on forums.

A whole class rendered next to useless for 99% of the game content because 2.5% of the player base who actually play pvm whine all the time.

When the correct response would be to remove heart seaker and to remove PVM and let the whining kids go back to wow.

[Sidamos]

Our damage was reduced but in no-way by 40% except you fail in playing our class.

[OMWiener]

Our damage was reduced but in no-way by 40% except you fail in playing our class.

Depends what your point of reference is. When you look at the ettens, our dps was reduced by 40% seeing as the hunter nerfs and the creep mitigation buffs off course stack.

But ye, pve wise numbers indicate a cut by 20-30%

[Silmahad]

150 ICPR would mean 50 skills per minute - hu ?

The guy on the US Forum, who calculated it, based his calculation on a normal shot routine ISB - PS - QS - PS...ISB - PS - QS etc. (maybe an occasional MS) and then subtracting the power gain / minute of BoR (based on this normal shot routine) postB7 from the power gain / minute of BoR preB7. I am not sure if he calculated Needfull Haste, in my opinion he should, because you should hold that skill on cooldown as a hunter who wants to do damage.

His calculation was pretty solid. If I will ever find the thread again, I will link it. Don't forget HM induction decreases, certain HM traits, and the fact that QS is then at less than 1 second induction time and PS (MS, HoA) is instant. The problem are the animation phases for the certain skills.

[MéLAnoR]

btw there is some strange typo that if you have more than 5 secs on quick shot slow legacy it shows as -0.5 to target speed which is same with low cut.
i have %48 slow legacy but the tooltip shows it as -0.5 same tooltip as low cut.
either a tooltip error or above %45 QS slow acts like low cut which doesnt seem to be to my observation must be a tooltip mistake.

who the hell changed those values from %values to -0.1 - 0.9 is a complete du mb a ss.

[Scatha the Worm]

Depends what your point of reference is. When you look at the ettens, our dps was reduced by 40% seeing as the hunter nerfs and the creep mitigation buffs off course stack.

But ye, pve wise numbers indicate a cut by 20-30%

If comparing a 4/5 bowmaster build, fight under 15 seconds... it's a 35% drop, fights in the 20-30s range, it's a 25-30% drop. If it's comparing 4/5 huntsman and using precision it's a 25% drop on burst, and no idea on longer fights.

It seems I've finally gotten enough volunteers for the 5minute sustained DPS test, bu the weekend I should have at least some data for comparison purposes.

[Swampster]

If comparing a 4/5 bowmaster build, fight under 15 seconds... it's a 35% drop, fights in the 20-30s range, it's a 25-30% drop. If it's comparing 4/5 huntsman and using precision it's a 25% drop on burst, and no idea on longer fights.

It seems I've finally gotten enough volunteers for the 5minute sustained DPS test, bu the weekend I should have at least some data for comparison purposes.

I would go with that... figures seem about right to what I'm experiencing. I would have guessed at somewhere just over 30% on a short fight in BM S:S, and coupled with less power restoration from BoTR.. kinda sucks tbh!

[Sidamos]

btw there is some strange typo that if you have more than 5 secs on quick shot slow legacy it shows as -0.5 to target speed which is same with low cut.
i have %48 slow legacy but the tooltip shows it as -0.5 same tooltip as low cut.
either a tooltip error or above %45 QS slow acts like low cut which doesnt seem to be to my observation must be a tooltip mistake.


the number is probably rounded but indeed why this changed is beyond me...

[Lenin_]

btw there is some strange typo that if you have more than 5 secs on quick shot slow legacy it shows as -0.5 to target speed which is same with low cut.
i have %48 slow legacy but the tooltip shows it as -0.5 same tooltip as low cut.
either a tooltip error or above %45 QS slow acts like low cut which doesnt seem to be to my observation must be a tooltip mistake.

who the hell changed those values from %values to -0.1 - 0.9 is a complete du mb a ss.

Yes, it is kinda strange....
http://g.imagehost.org/0962/Untitled-1.jpg

[Amphoras]

As shown by the survey on the gen forum we are now the second lowest dps class in game (way lower than a dps spec guardian) and our functionality to groups is now next to useless.


That test shows the time it takes to clear LoS including regen times. Just because hunters are near the bottom doesnt mean they are killing second slowest, only that they have much higher regen times than others.

I agree that hunters were taken down by too much, but no way are they the second lowest dps class.

[Erhnam]

Our dps was reduced by about 40%, people say it was high but for 99% of hunters it was only on par with RKs at best and our power managment kicked to death as well. Sorry??? If you think your damage preB7 was on par with RK, I can only categorize you as a TROLL.

As shown by the survey on the gen forum we are now the second lowest dps class in game (way lower than a dps spec guardian) If you think that make a favor to the hunter comunity and delete your hunter please. When you demostrate that you are not just trolling here I will explain you why a hunter will always get low numbers in those tests

[Swampster]

Sorry??? If you think your damage preB7 was on par with RK, I can only categorize you as a TROLL.

If you think that make a favor to the hunter comunity and delete your hunter please. When you demostrate that you are not just trolling here I will explain you why a hunter will always get low numbers in those tests

Likewise..

He has an opinion, about how his character performs, if you're not willing to listen to his opinion and do nothing but shout him down and call him names, I would suggest it is you that is the troll.

[Erhnam]

Likewise..

He has an opinion, about how his character performs, if you're not willing to listen to his opinion and do nothing but shout him down and call him names, I would suggest it is you that is the troll.
kk, ill leave hunters forum then, happy now?

:rolleyes:

[Swampster]

kk, ill leave hunters forum then, happy now?

:rolleyes:

Bye then... and thanks for proving my point! :rolleyes:

[Scatha the Worm]

Likewise..

He has an opinion, about how his character performs, if you're not willing to listen to his opinion and do nothing but shout him down and call him names, I would suggest it is you that is the troll.

The fact remains that kind of testing is a very bad one. Also the numbers he is stating as absolute truth, by my own testing in even the worst case scenario, are exagerated. The fact he was even stating that RK and Hunter DPS was on par before BK 7 proves a lot.

You can't defend a post like that claiming that it is an opinion, when he's stating his numbers as abosulute truth based in a single test of very poor conditions (I call that a grinding speed test, which will always favour AoE encounters, when hunters clealy go in a one by one basis), or in no numbers at all (referring to that 40% he is claiming).

If you want some more realistic numbers about DPS see

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344184
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=258048
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344921

[MéLAnoR]

I think critted damage spikes brought nerf and will continue so ..

[Swampster]

The fact remains that kind of testing is a very bad one. Also the numbers he is stating as absolute truth, by my own testing in even the worst case scenario, are exagerated. The fact he was even stating that RK and Hunter DPS was on par before BK 7 proves a lot.

You can't defend a post like that claiming that it is an opinion, when he's stating his numbers as abosulute truth based in a single test of very poor conditions (I call that a grinding speed test, which will always favour AoE encounters, when hunters clealy go in a one by one basis), or in no numbers at all (referring to that 40% he is claiming).

If you want some more realistic numbers about DPS see

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344184
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=258048
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344921

However there's no reason to immediately go on the attack.. and start shouting him down and name calling... whatever he was claiming! That is unless he was making personal attacks himself, it might be more understandable. However if he did.. I didn't see!

And besides, whatever kind of testing any of us try an do... NONE, and I repeat NONE is anywhere near accurate, we simply can't get adequate data sets. We can merely state opinion based on hap-hazard, non-controlled trials, and again it's a matter of opinion, and certainly nothing remotely based on facts about which kind of tests prove what, or which is the most conclusive.

While his figures may have appeared to be out there to most of us, there's nothing to prove he DIDN'T believe what he was saying, and totally nothing to prove he was wrong... so to start shouting at him and calling him a troll and that he should delete his account etc is just wrong plain and simple. It says more about the person doing the shouting than the original poster IMO.

Notwithstanding the fact you can read his post differently to how some of you have interpreted it as well. For one he never categorically stated as fact, that it was a 40% nerf.. the word about was used... and you yourself (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5120964&postcount=28) have suggested upto a 35% drop for short BM equipped fights... if this guy is primarily soloing... it's likely he is in BM, and in a lot of short fights.. so this is what he's witnessing.. So he becomes a Troll.. for overstating by "about" 5%?

As for the direct RK/Hunter comparison... well he didn't actually mention whether one or the the other (or both) was before or after book 7 did he!? I read it (and took it as meaning) as comparing hunters prior to book 7 with RK's now... which is probably not such a stark contrast either.. so IT like all these results is a matter of interpretation IMO, and again certainly doesnt warrant the name calling!