We don't need Bowmaster!

[Warner / Wardrat]

When you inspect a hunter and look at his traits 99% of them have bowmaster equipped. Why? Because it's pure and insane damage. But is it fun? imo, no. I have 6 (yes 6) huntsman traits equipped. I did some tests and I can burn down a mob almost as fast as a hunter with bowmaster (only a few seconds later). But at the end, I had more fun beating the mob than that bowmaster guy had because I actually had to think about what I was going to do and not just simply do massive damage.

In the huntsman trait set there are two melee traits Bow and Blade and Rapid Recovery if you have both of them equipped, not only your range will be nice but so will your melee. This means you have more skills to use in a fight, instead of just range skills you can now use melee skills effectively. More skills to use = more fun imo.
With bowmaster your melee skills are useless because compared to your range attacks the damage is too low. But with full huntsmen (included the two melee traits) you will see that you can hit really high with melee. Although, you do need some more might and melee crit which is at the cost of agility, but I don't mind that.

I haven't had many 1v1s in the Etten yet but from the ones I did had I think huntsman is just as effective as bowmaster if you use it right. So basicly I don't see a reason why everyone goes for bowmaster if huntsman is imo much more fun and at least as good.

[Scappydog]

It's personal choice. Not all players want to play the same way and shouldn't be forced too. I personally run with 3 Bow 4 Hunt and that suits the way I play my Hunter.

If your set up works for you, fine, no problems with that. But many players don't see the Hunter as a melee toon.

[Warner / Wardrat]

It's personal choice. Not all players want to play the same way and shouldn't be forced too. I personally run with 3 Bow 4 Hunt and that suits the way I play my Hunter.

If your set up works for you, fine, no problems with that. But many players don't see the Hunter as a melee toon.

That's true, hunters aren't made for melee damage but if we have the skills, why shouldn't we use them? I agree that they are useless without the traits, but that's why I advice to go for huntsman, then you use all teh skills that you have, which is a bigger chalange and certainly more fun imo. It's not all about dps :)

But if you guys think differently then I respect that of course, it's your own choice like you said.

[MéLAnoR]

Let me tell you something ; with book 7 you ll be forced to have more might and more melee traits as a RANGED CLASS.
Huntsmen est is very fun but has flaws with stance and legendary trait ; thus im looking forward to some changes.
however if all the people are forced to use huntsman or 4HM and 3 BM im sure turbine will nerf it too its ashes.
Im giving one more chance to Turbine till book 8 to fix everlasting broken utulities and if we get the same attitude despite a very constructive hunter compilation of class issues on us forum hunter threads im gonna shelve my hunter and use only for crafing deed and supportive kin events.

[Scatha the Worm]

For soloing work I see working just fine a buildup using Rapid Recovery & Bow and Blade. Just dual weilding axes or the like, with a wise choice of melee legacies, and perhaps pay atention to might. Really, I don't see anything wrong with it as choice of playstyle.

The fact remains you will still outdamage popping traited Needful Haste and using bow skills than trying to kill anything with melee skills. Our melee skills are for utility, not damage:
- Low Cut: Snare, to get back in range.
- Blindside: Focus buildup, to get instacast bow skills.
- Swift Stroke: Parry buff.
That leaves Agile Rejoinder and Scourging Blow as pure damage dealer skills, but AR hits very weak, and SB needs a Barbed Arrow bleed on the target to be worth something.

IMO we lack one skill that becomes a finishing melee move. Scourging Blow is supposed to be it, but with Barbed Arrow sucking so bad, it just doesn't get any use. The other factor is having to get slow hard hitting weapons to make significant damage, which for me brings the issue of Attack Speed: in melee it becomes horribly low, making responsiveness an issue.

Even then, the fact remains that a melee build is utterly wasted in a group setting. Completely. Any hunter trying to do his (now seriously dimished) DPS role in a group AT MELEE is very questionable to say the least.

Regarding Bowmaster itself... Critical Eye + Deadly Precision are the foundation stones of any Focus Burn build, and are both in bowmaster. Then again, Swift and True really is a good bump to overall DPS. With Book 7, the penalties of Bowmaster at 4/5 are going to be too great IMO, but 10% more damage is still something to bear much in mind.

All in all, if it comes down to playstyle (as in what is more fun for you) there is no correct choice, but just your own choice. So making a thread about "Dont use Bowmaster" and then saying nobody should use it cause "it isn't fun" isn't very much of an argument. Bowmaster is about the DPS, Hunstmen is about responsiveness and mobility. In the end, I believe hybrid build of 3/4 or 4/3 are the most succesfull, but Book 7 will narrow down all the builds options, making some choice plain stupid and other nice but impossible to sustain for different reasons, so we'll see what happens then.

[Erhnam]

Regarding Bowmaster itself... Critical Eye + Deadly Precision are the foundation stones of any Focus Burn build, and are both in bowmaster. Then again, Swift and True really is a good bump to overall DPS. With Book 7, the penalties of Bowmaster at 4/5 are going to be too great IMO, but 10% more damage is still something to bear much in mind.
Just a sidenote, Im huntsman traited, with onle Critical Eye. In precision, with Enduring precision, I almost never have focus problem unless I want to spam RoA or use MS. Im not finding focus a bottleneck for huntsman builds. Try it ;)

[nightbyday]

Let me tell you something ; with book 7 you ll be forced to have more might and more melee traits as a RANGED CLASS.
Huntsmen est is very fun but has flaws with stance and legendary trait ; thus im looking forward to some changes.
however if all the people are forced to use huntsman or 4HM and 3 BM im sure turbine will nerf it too its ashes.
Im giving one more chance to Turbine till book 8 to fix everlasting broken utulities and if we get the same attitude despite a very constructive hunter compilation of class issues on us forum hunter threads im gonna shelve my hunter and use only for crafing deed and supportive kin events.

Agreed...
currently i am 4 BM and swap hunt a trapper about for the other 3 for fun., i suspect after book7 i will be 4hunt 3 bm.

Personally i think all three legendary lines for hunter are rubbish. i rarely use cool burn (maybe last mob in solo instances) and love my CC abilities (crafted traps and all). most used skills are swift, quickshot, penertrating, blind side and need for haste (in popularity order not order of use) least used skills, DF, burn hot, merciful, strength of earth (i use snare trap more than these).

[lihanaamari]

I haven't had many 1v1s in the Etten yet but from the ones I did had I think huntsman is just as effective as bowmaster if you use it right. So basicly I don't see a reason why everyone goes for bowmaster if huntsman is imo much more fun and at least as good.

All you really need for Etten is a bow with 50% quick shot snare, or four trapper traits (for the rooting penetrating shot, might not work too good in book 7). Once you have kiting supremacy set up you'll find no-one wants to fight you any more, and wargs will come back only in numbers to gank you.

The problem is that this kind of setup is worthless in the farming sessions in the real pvmp, because you won't do enough damage with a trapper setup to kill or tag anything.

[Warner / Wardrat]

All you really need for Etten is a bow with 50% quick shot snare, or four trapper traits (for the rooting penetrating shot, might not work too good in book 7). Once you have kiting supremacy set up you'll find no-one wants to fight you any more, and wargs will come back only in numbers to gank you.

The problem is that this kind of setup is worthless in the farming sessions in the real pvmp, because you won't do enough damage with a trapper setup to kill or tag anything.

Tbh I used the trapper of foes tactic a while ago but it's a big fail. Even an auto attack breaks the PS root on a creep. The incombat trap is nice tho, but most creeps have root pots so it's based on luck. with trapper of foes your melee damage sucks and because of the PS cd your range will not be as effective either.

[lihanaamari]

Tbh I used the trapper of foes tactic a while ago but it's a big fail. Even an auto attack breaks the PS root on a creep. The incombat trap is nice tho, but most creeps have root pots so it's based on luck. with trapper of foes your melee damage sucks and because of the PS cd your range will not be as effective either.

Turn auto attack off. The trick is you can always build range after the creep has burned his root pot. Blindside+PS, run away, and start kiting with Quick Shot again. Sure, it takes time, and usually this ends up in creep running away, because they can't reach you and you don't do enough damage to kill them while they make escape.

With Bowmaster you can simply hit needful haste and mow down the creep without bothering with kiting.

[Hardowise]

You dont need it, i do I hate using melee skills, I dont want a half melee half ranged gimped hybrid (like in war) thats bad at both things To use melee or range effectivly means maxing out one stat in the favour of the other or be weak at both, we would also need a decent dual handed melee weapon as well Certainly in Instances other classes dont seam to have much problem matching my ranged dps.

[Silmahad]

No idea what the TO meant with "Bowmaster", maybe it was pointed towards the hunters who are running around with 5+ BM traits...and yes I still watch alot with these...and I always ask me...why???

For Watcher 1.0 I equipped 4 BM 3 HM, cos it just makes sense to maximize damage on the tentacles if the encounter allows to pew pew in S:S the whole time.

For normal group play and solo I equipped 3 BM 4 HM, so am already used to our "new" skill setup in B7.

I have not tested it, but I seriously doubt that someone won't have focus probs without at least equipping Deadly Precision and equipping only Enduring Precision. Enduring Precision may be enough if you equip Strong Draw too, but I seriously doubt. Even with Deadly Precision and Strong Draw I sometimes (rare I admit) need to click QS twice to get enough Fokus again for a PS.

[BinabikErebor]

I tried the various combinations.. the only one that didn't quite do it for me was Trapper. I tried going full BM -- impressive, but you run out of power fast..

Tried going full Huntsman.. nice, but not the kind of dps that keeps me alive easily :-)

So, I'm running a combination of BM and HM like most of us I guess, but I do like to have an in-combat trap.. so one extra trapper trait :)

Full BM feels great, and since we're supposed to be the best single-target dps, it's the best, but it can't support me for long enough imo especially when fellowed.

Binabik

[Saurfenion]

Some people just dont get it.. Its not about that we "need" Bowmaster..

Its about having a choice..

Before book 7 (as in where we are now in EU), Full Bowmaster works, Full huntmen works, a mix of both works.. And splashing trapper does pay off too.. The only thing that doesnt work is full trapper and I even heard people having fun with that..

After book 7, you are almost forced to spec huntsmen with some splashes here and there if you want to preform in groups (and dont want to get outdps by every other class).. Means we gonna be even more cookie clutter specs.. From reading I guess the most used spec will be 1bm/2tr/4huntsmen, "improved" press onwards (thnx to 4 huntsmen) for +3000 power/morale during combat, RoT (unless it became totally useless with the crowd control changes and immunities) and Bards Arrow.

Sure you can spec different but its not like it used to be where almost all specs where as viable with all there own pro's and con's balancing this out..

Guess we have to get used to it and adept that besides radiance gear, legendary weapons and jewelery we gonna be clones spec wise more and more too..

Atleast im used to it from my warden where 99% of the wardens run around with the same spec too..

[nightbyday]

yesterday there was session of 'hunter hate' and greneral bitching about hunters on global LFF, 70% of hunters were generally in agreement that hunters dps was a tad to much, 10% in denial, 10% saying hunter werte vastly OP with example revolving around ettens, 9% just cried and 1% stating they were so god like they could kill 175k nemisis mobs solo (hmmmm). [not fact just fantasy based on comments]

Interresting comments:

One shotting creeps 8k moral gone boom!!
hitting 1k+ per hit
soloing hoards of orcs with ease
healing self for 3k+
soloing 175 nemesis mobs
Nukers should do good dps not massive dps

and so on...

one shot creeps, yep but in special circumstances, debuff/buff green rings etc
1k per hit yeah grey mobs (realistical level for level at 60 is more like some where between 300-1k non super crit [ a tad op i guess])
soling hordes, yep as long as its 1/2 at a time and not ranged
3k heal traited 4 legendary set with a legendary trait (gimping dps for around 30%+ and removing a better trait legendary every 10mins)
175k mob, never could get the name/level/type of mob from the level 60 full spec hunter.
nukers should be.... well MASSIVE single target dps (not multi or obscene) hence NUKE as opposed to Granade.

and so on, mad me giggle a bit. to be honest my captain solos better than my hunter albit slower and thats the point the speed a hunter can take down single orcs, it's called SINGLE TARGET DPS.



Having though about i do feel hunters are being watered down and RK's boosted up for a more level playing feild between hunter/rk with hunter having the edge for single target dps and CC while RK has the heal self and others ability. To be frank i am ok with this but i suspect RK may turn out to be more popular over time.

With this in mind i have been playing about with traits again and can tell you 3BM/4HM or even 2BM/1TF/4HM can work and so on. I do think we will see cookie cutters even though non standard build will work ok and just know hunter will be throwing bowmaster build in the bin It's going to be hard to leave the mad dps behind and those who are addicted to stuff like burn hot will find the change worst.

I do suspect the standrad will be 3BM/4HM with peope picking up the + damage bonus from BM line focus on swift bow,penertrating and shot speed (not crit as 15% is 15% and you can easily max past that with a captain in tow). In addition picking up the 3k power HP heal from huntsman, Bow of right' will not be as good power generation wise 3k power every 10mins. Result solid predictable dps, people in precision or even strength stance (bye bye endurance), larger power pools (maybe higher icpr) with better melee. Couple with that a tendency to drop of secondary agilty traits adding power or might based and maybe melee mitigation etc and the same on jewelry/cloak builds (armour well its predictably radience... and why not ;p); you are going to see a lot of wannabe champs out there and very gimped wannabes but a rather decent solo build that is just a lot slower than previously for 'farmage (i can see my self farming with my captain now) and the abilty of popping out a trait for (1BM) for pvp/groups/power build etc).

[Belechael]

Of course we need the option of BM. It's fun to finish the Library in 8 minutes. My champion does it in 9, and that is also fun.

I agree with the previous comments that it's all about options. And not to be unique among the other hunters, but to change styles between solo and group play, and even from day to day.

What I don't like is to be forced to change my style, because of major nerfs. No one will use full BM after the next book, unless it's for a short trip to a mirror, and the price for retraiting will force us again to find the combination that best suits our playstyle and stick to that.

Hunters will adapt, as always, and will continue to be needed, albeit not in such numbers as now.

[IsmoLaitela]

Pffffft yes we do need bowmaster! *slap* We cant oneshot evil creeps without it! :-(

[Calladan]

I use 4BM 3HM and I think that Combat Traps r kinda useless (for 4HM-1ToF-2BM), if u have a friendly weaponsmith around. Just tell him to craft u some alactritous traps. They are the same as our combat traps but with 2 mins cd, which is shared with the other crafted traps. Good thing is that Alactritous traps r placed almost instantly. They have an induction but it's very short and hard to be interrupted, unlike the regular traps. Hunters' Gadgets ftw!

[-V-engeance]

As others have said the problem is choice, right now there are a huge number of vaible builds that work and allow a hunter to do the various things they want to do solo and are expected to do in a group setting. However, making BM almost redundant severly lessens this choice. Since MoM launched I've always had 3 or 4 BM slotted, now that just won't really be viable at all regardless of what I'm trying to do and that is the problem.

I generally run in a 4/2/1 or a 3/2/2 build right now, but that is going out of the window because of the nerfs, I just can't see either working anymore, certainly the 4 won't be 4 BM anyway :p

[Evendar of Rohan]

Bowmaster has actually never been our best DPS option. It's only really been an effective aggro-management tool.

People see the +damage % in the tooltips and run to assumptions, rather than sitting and thinking about all the options available. They dont consider things such as accuracy, speed and how a combination of both prevents a loss of damage through BPE. Furthermore people dont seem to grasp that more frequent focus skills combined with the best balance of attack speed reductions and damage increase has a vastly better net yield.

Full bowmaster spec remains as pointless in B7 as it was in Moria release.

[Scatha the Worm]

Bowmaster is a trait line of burst DPS. It is designed as such, and it was pretty well executed. The fact remains that in group content, burst DPS isn't that important (or shouldn't be). The poor content design in Moria allowed for ignoring aggro mechanics and power issues and had rampaging hunters running around with 4/5 (or full) bowmaster in S:S doing instances without major impact.

The solution of downscaling weapon DPS was correct, but the burst DPS of minstrels and loremasters is too much at the moment (and the super crits of rks are just as OPed as were ours in its moment, but just some minor scaling might be needed). If every class can DPS they might as well disregard DPS as a class role and start thinking some new ideas.

IMO the hunter is in its most broken state since I've played it, although it remains more fun than in SoA (go figure). The trait sets and legendaries were supposed to brake the cookie cutter build but Book 7 has brought back all those issues, along with the new ones:

- The fact that we can't go for even 3 Trapper of Foes traits (to improve our lowly secondary role) traits without severely gimping DPS.
- Many class traits are already undesirable and almost useless:
* Swift and True and Fast Draw are no longer worth slotting (Barbed Arrow remains a waste of quickslot space, and ISB is now a situational skill to build focus).
* Stealthy Shot... With aggro handling being even further trivialized for hunters I don't see any use for this.
* Shot through the Heart... useless because of the easily attainable crit cap, and even then, HS is VERY situational to deserve a meager +5-6% crit chance.
* Barbed Fury... No comment.
* Hail of Arrows... Would be great if it was a direct percent bonus instead of rating.
* Bow and Blade and Rapid Recovery are of no value at all in group settings, and are very questionable elsewhere since our melee damage is really low.
- Our choices of legendaries are very narrow... Power Issues force the use of Bow of the Righteous... Bard's Arrow and Rain of Thorns are of the few utility options we can bring to the table. Cool Burn is now even more of a compromise, Improved Fleet Stance is still borderline useless, Explosive Arrow means a trade-off in DPS of an extraordinary magnitude. Press Onwards need help with both induction and cooldown (Improved version), unimproved it is just completely worthless.
- Our power issues remain outstanding. Both other DPS classes can easily solve their issues. Why did we get Windrider books only to see BotR nerfed and bowmaster even further penalised? (since it now takes more power to bring mobs down, that 40% is even more than Bk6 in proportion)
- The high dependance on critical to do well in the DPS department. We don't have legacies, self-buffs, or anything to directly improve our damage, and the blatant nerf to criticals hits us the most.
- The poor performance of our CC succesfully leaves the hunter without a valid secondary role.
- The button-mashing condition of the gameplay, without gated skills and chains or anything that brings the need of attention to skill rotations.

[Calladan]

Tried 4HM 3BM traits since b7 lauched till today. Till b7 with 4BM - 3HM power was an issue at the back of my mind. With all the changes of b7, + the Huntsmen path I tried, it became a problem. I have a low ICPR (620 I think, but didnt have power problems pre b7 even in a raid with only 1 LM and 2 more hunters) and everytime I had to fight 2+ mobs power was just not enough. Changed again to Bowmaster. I think the root of the problem is that the reduction of DPS without a similar reduction on power costs destoyed HM. At least with BM we have more DPS so we kill faster and we save power. So, we need Bowmaster after all, although I thought that HM was about to be more useful post b7.

[Erhnam]

At least with BM we have more DPS so we kill faster and we save power Sorry but that makes no sense, you get more DPS, but you get even higher power costs :P

[nightbyday]

I agree with scaththeworm exceptthe part about minstrels dps, that happens ONLY when minstrel fully traits warrior skald and that gimps the personal and fellowship healing capeabilites (along with associtiated aggro issues). NO minstrels are fine they are not high on dps table but i am shocked brglers are down the bottem now. RK's OMG yep it was to be expected but they are Soooooo frigile so i have no isues and we can still beat the dps wise as hunters... just. My issues is LM's WTF is that all about, go and watch them in the orc camps of lothlorien. They just stand there, nuke root nuke stun root nuke...... 1 mob 2 5 don't care stun root nuke root nuke stun BOOM BOOM BOOM.. job done run off.

LM's will be next for the nerf bat i kid you not.

Hunter issues, i have not actuall ran my huter out to shot any thing since book7 launch but did retrait after much deleberation to a 3bm/4hm set up with i think will work with the focus around needful haste (i fancied the idea of a small power regen from that) and swapped set ups for power regen in and out of fights. will still be strength for solo and precision for fellowships (on the whole). I was really attracted to the 3k heal off of press onwards when traited but the drop in dps (a further 15-20% just put me right off it and even with other benefits i don't see it worth while for any thing other than ettenmoors leeching and preaching or bragging in spars.

I am not worried all the other hunters in kinship have gone a simular way and after getting over the intial shock have adjusted well.

Hunters just need modifaction to the legendairies currently no full trait is worth the effort (except BM :p) so they dont lose even more dps and i do think the solution of power is not regen but the inclusion of will within hunter related items (heck i even get cower lol).

[Calladan]

Sorry but that makes no sense, you get more DPS, but you get even higher power costs :P

Mobs got killed much faster, so less skills used, so more power saved. ALSO with BM I had BotR equipped instead of Improved Press Onwards, but dont think the 13-18 power per ranged skill helps power saving that much.

[Scatha the Worm]

Mobs got killed much faster, so less skills used, so more power saved. ALSO with BM I had BotR equipped instead of Improved Press Onwards, but dont think the 13-18 power per ranged skill helps power saving that much.

BotR was equivalent to about 600 ICPR. Now it is about 450 ICPR. The impact is quite large, but mostly for group play. In solo play, the power impact is because of the increased number of skills needed to kill a regular mob=more power used per mob. The heavy lack of Will in hunter gear impacts hard on the recovery time between fights. The campfire not scaling at all with level doesn't help.

To those feeling the slowdown in mob grinding speed due to needing larger recovery times, I would suggest not going beyond 3 Bowmaster, slot Patience, and build a little better for Will and larger power pool.

[SCM]

I haven't changed my setup since BK7 hit and i am very heavy with BM traits slotted including cool burn legendary and i'm not noticing much power issues compared to before. I had a reworking of my traits, jewellery with more will plus ICPR jewellery item added before BK7 to help in the VM with power issues and i am also lucky enough to have a 2nd age xbow with -8% induction power costs at present which does help a lot when soloing.

I am coping fine but a lot of it is down to equipment, traits, legacies on the weapons and using correct skills to make use of my reduction in induction power costs. Everyone plays differently and will have differences in equipment but it is possible to still run a BM line if you are lucky with stuff.

[Bravely Bold Sir Robin]

Ummm not to be unpopular or anything, but the only thing I found with book 7 was the damage 'indicated' above a mobs head shows as reduced, but my hunter's damage output is no different. I can still kill in the same amount of time as before, exactly the same way, and I don't use the bowmaster tree, at all. It's all huntsman here. Speed above damge = greater DPS anyway.


And not to add insult to injury, but I've never been in a fellowship where someone out-damaged me. Even with Tomes equipped, and a fellowship of tanks, I pull all the aggro, and kill faster than any tank.

[Telaron70]

pre bk 7 once I had got through the initial period of experimentation I always ran with 3BM/4HM. I loved the speed above all & I was convinced it was the most efficient trade off between dps, focus & power consumption. I never ever felt bowmaster was the right way to go for maximum sustainable damage & sustainable dps is all that matters in a group. Soloing we had more than enough for anything the game could throw at us so I never really felt the need to retrait.

Somewhat perversely & contrary to what a lot of ppl are doing, since bk7 I slot 4BM/3HM mostly, in a futile attempt to see some reasonable numbers. Not convinced that I'm actually doing more dps per se, in fact I'm sure I'm not, but at least I can crit for the same as a lvl 50 RK kinnie does ;).

Fact is I can't be bothered micro-managing every single aspect of my build, when I think that now there is precious little advantage to be gained whatever I do. bk7 has broken my enthusiasm for my hunter somewhat. Besides which I've run out of things to kill.

[Silmahad]

Sorry to say this, but people who do not notice the damage reduction in S:S with 4 BM traits pre and post B7 with a lvl 60 Char fighting lvl 60 mobs and elite mobs in instances should go reinstall their LotRO new (or better not...) cause there must be a serious bug...

The damage reduction isn't only noticable it's like a brick falling on your head.

...and for people who do not realize any power problems, I strongly recommend to do GS hardmode WITHOUT a rogue (for stealth and fellowship maneuvers) to activate Nardur within 10 minutes.

You will realize a couple of things, IF you do this without a rogue:

-You will stack DD classes and maybe let the poor minstrel handle Igash alone without a secondary healer, if no RK is present.
-You will be in S:S almost the whole time to get there within 10 minutes. There are enough archers or other mobs fighting from distance around you can battle with S:S and there is no time for CC.
-You won't use any CC skill, cause your goal is to get the mobs together and AE them down, be it by champions, hail of arrows or a red/red/red/red/red/yellow conjunction.
-You WILL HAVE power problems (S:S), you will realize that buff food and Celebrant pots are not only a luxury, it is a must (this developement I find actually a good one, my minstrel twink is a cook).

Another question is, how to handle this with skill specs.

I did that GS run with a 4 BM / 3 HM and a 3 BM / 4 HM skill spec and I was rather dissapointed. 4 BM is just not to handle for the power drain and 3 BM / 4 HM is still a struggle for power (no loremaster). I had 840 icpr at 5k moral unbuffed. I could get around 950 icpr by sacrificing around 400 to 500 moral.

As I am in the comfortable situation to have the full 6/6 radiance setbonus which will set my Needfull Haste and High Concentration to a 1 min 30 second cooldown, I tried a 3 BM / 1 ToF / 3 HM setup and at last the power prob is gone.

3 BM:

Critical Eye (debatable), Deadly Precision, Arrow Storm (debatable)

1 ToF:

Deep Concentration (480 power by use)

3HM:

Strong Draw, Swift Recovery, "The other HoA improvement trait" or Fast Draw (both debatable)

Conclusion:

-Enough focus
-Enough power
-still more than only a bit less damage as pre B7, but it is as it is...

If B7 has achieved one thing, then the urge to have a full 6/6 radiance set. With an 1 min 30 sec cd on Needfull Haste and High Concentration AND a maxed Needfull Haste legacy on my sword, I am able to increase my damage A LOT and I gain 480 power every 1 min 30 seconds AND (what many people might miss), I have a full focus bar for a Mercifull Shot each 1 min 30 seconds on guarantee.

Maybe it's an option for hunters without 6/6 too.

The last thing I will do is to spec deep into ToF to gimp my damage even further.

3 BM / 4 HM, I was a fan of pre B7, dissapointed me not only in the GS hardmode, but at the Watcher 2.0 too. At the Watcher you need to organize your power now by yourself, loremasters will fill the minstrels, cause they are the ones who will need horrible amounts of power now in P3.

For Solo, farming, crafting instances:

4 BM / 3 HM or 4 BM / 1 ToF / 2 HM all the way, there is no need for a high art "huntering" in solo play, I just want to maw through those mobs as fast as possible.

[LAW666]

i havent changed a thing.....but then im not playing hunter much now....ive noticed a few things such as CC skills are pretty much worthless now...im playing warden more often but he has no aoe skills worth mentioning at my lvl, i find it kinda fun but doing all those bloody quests again my god what a grind.....think im gonna take a break from Lotro and use my subscription on another game for a while...this new book has seen 10 top raid players in my kin leave lotro for WOW

[Provideniya]

I admit that I didn't even bother to read the whole thread, but here I go..

I just wonder what the people are whining for?

If there's no suitable set for you, combine and make your own.
In my opinions, those "new" legendary skills + buffs doesn't even sound worth of trying..

I am a way more than happy with my balanced red/blue (i think) traits combination.
Best for my style of playing. I'm just happy to have a pair of extra spots in there for updating my old trait-thingy..

Concerning CC..
The Only problem I find is in the fellowships.
Try trapping? nah, Snare's much better and useful - IF you have time for it..
Try RoT? Why waste focus as they break the roots nevertheless..
Fear? Works - with good group.
AoE? I've always used the attack, and became nearly a master of it. Just use it wisely..

Also, I think I'm just using the campfires to boost renewing only 'cause of old habits..

And to have a word about damage:
I do it now, and I did it in the past - nothing to complain about..

[nightbyday]

Sorry to say this, but people who do not notice the damage reduction in S:S with 4 BM traits pre and post B7 with a lvl 60 Char fighting lvl 60 mobs and elite mobs in instances should go reinstall their LotRO new (or better not...) cause there must be a serious bug...

The damage reduction isn't only noticable it's like a brick falling on your head.

...and for people who do not realize any power problems, I strongly recommend to do GS hardmode WITHOUT a rogue (for stealth and fellowship maneuvers) to activate Nardur within 10 minutes.

You will realize a couple of things, IF you do this without a rogue:

-You will stack DD classes and maybe let the poor minstrel handle Igash alone without a secondary healer, if no RK is present.
-You will be in S:S almost the whole time to get there within 10 minutes. There are enough archers or other mobs fighting from distance around you can battle with S:S and there is no time for CC.
-You won't use any CC skill, cause your goal is to get the mobs together and AE them down, be it by champions, hail of arrows or a red/red/red/red/red/yellow conjunction.
-You WILL HAVE power problems (S:S), you will realize that buff food and Celebrant pots are not only a luxury, it is a must (this developement I find actually a good one, my minstrel twink is a cook).

Another question is, how to handle this with skill specs.

I did that GS run with a 4 BM / 3 HM and a 3 BM / 4 HM skill spec and I was rather dissapointed. 4 BM is just not to handle for the power drain and 3 BM / 4 HM is still a struggle for power (no loremaster). I had 840 icpr at 5k moral unbuffed. I could get around 950 icpr by sacrificing around 400 to 500 moral.

As I am in the comfortable situation to have the full 6/6 radiance setbonus which will set my Needfull Haste and High Concentration to a 1 min 30 second cooldown, I tried a 3 BM / 1 ToF / 3 HM setup and at last the power prob is gone.

3 BM:

Critical Eye (debatable), Deadly Precision, Arrow Storm (debatable)

1 ToF:

Deep Concentration (480 power by use)

3HM:

Strong Draw, Swift Recovery, "The other HoA improvement trait" or Fast Draw (both debatable)

Conclusion:

-Enough focus
-Enough power
-still more than only a bit less damage as pre B7, but it is as it is...

If B7 has achieved one thing, then the urge to have a full 6/6 radiance set. With an 1 min 30 sec cd on Needfull Haste and High Concentration AND a maxed Needfull Haste legacy on my sword, I am able to increase my damage A LOT and I gain 480 power every 1 min 30 seconds AND (what many people might miss), I have a full focus bar for a Mercifull Shot each 1 min 30 seconds on guarantee.

Maybe it's an option for hunters without 6/6 too.

The last thing I will do is to spec deep into ToF to gimp my damage even further.

3 BM / 4 HM, I was a fan of pre B7, dissapointed me not only in the GS hardmode, but at the Watcher 2.0 too. At the Watcher you need to organize your power now by yourself, loremasters will fill the minstrels, cause they are the ones who will need horrible amounts of power now in P3.

For Solo, farming, crafting instances:

4 BM / 3 HM or 4 BM / 1 ToF / 2 HM all the way, there is no need for a high art "huntering" in solo play, I just want to maw through those mobs as fast as possible.

Good post...

I have to say i slotted deep concentration for doing that 'test' which is running in general discussion about class performance. When it was not slotted i constantly ran out of power thus took slower, i do find it odd some hunters are saying 'no issues what so ever stillkill the mob in three shots others are saying 'impossiable' and most seem to be 'i have noticed a huge difference espcially in the power department.

I do think it is odd some hunters are posting in the thread above numbers some 2-3 mins quicker than other hunters.

What i would like to see is all these hunters who still say we are still uber actually post their traits and set up and also what bow/legacies they are using.

[Silmahad]

What i would like to see is all these hunters who still say we are still uber actually post their traits and set up and also what bow/legacies they are using.


..and not only this, they should talk about their playstyle, so we can exclude those hunters, who just play their toon as a solo grind machine, because THIS does not tell you anything about hunter abilities post B7. Do instance hardmode runs with time limits and try Watcher 2.0, THEN you have a clue what has changed.

I am not saying that the hunter is useless now, but I can not stand these people who do always mention "nothing has changed, it's all as good as it was before". That's just nonsense.

PS: In my GS example in my previous post, I forgot to mention that my lvl 60 SA bow has at least maxed - 10% focus power costs, I use the biggest -% power cost book and - of course - have equipped BoR. The power problem is present, it's not a catastrophe, but it is still a problem that has to be worked around with High Concentration and this steals a trait slot for damage or focus gain.

[Scatha the Worm]

As far as grouping goes, I've considered traiting Deep Concentration for the Power Heal, but it would brake my focus burn setup. Instead I switch to ICPR gear on the fly when I know the combat is going to get long, going from the usual 800 ICPR I have to about 950 (at the expense of either 400 morale or 250 critical rating).

The build is a 4-HM/3-BM:
Critical Eye
Deadly Precision
Swift and True/Hail of Arrows/True Shot (Hail of Arrows for heavy multi-add combats like 16th or Skumfil, the other 2 I should test to know which is better for single target DPS efficiency, but I suspect it would be in favour of True Shot)
Enduring Precision
Swift Recovery
Arrow Storm
Strong Draw

Of course that means I run almost exclusively in Precision (Stance Dancing has lost a lot of effectiveness). I suspect that build delivers the best of sustained DPS, even allowing use of Merciful regularly because of the Focus efficiency of the combined traits. Still, this is based around burning cds like crazy on all focus skills (PS, RoA, NH, MS), using induction skills only while waiting on cds. I do still use ISB a lot, just to not die of boredom at the super-simplistic skill rotation. Precision I feel is a must now, it's the only way to increase DPS without running in the Power-prohibitive and aggro unfriendly Strength Stance.

My wish list...
- Undo BotR nerf
- Undo ISB nerf (completely, 3rd arrow back on same damage as 1st and 2nd)
- Undo Bowmaster 3/5 bonus nerf, back to 10% critical multiplier.
- Switch around Bowmaster 4/5 penalties. +30% power and +40% threat would be perfect.
- Change Merficul Shot trait from a critical multiplier to an increased crit chance and/or reduced focus cost, that would make the skill actually worth something in a sustained dps skill rotation.
- Remove DPS reductions and PS root on Trapper of Foes.
- Double tick damage AND duration of Barbed Arrow bleed.
- Campfire ooc-regen changed to scale with level.
- Fix Hail of Arrows and Shot through the Heart to direct percetage increases, to bypass critical rating cap.
- Explosive Arrow should make DS cd=duration.
- BH +power cost reduced to +150%. No power pool can currently sustain the whole 20s of insane power costs.
- Improved PO without increased cd, or minor increase (perhaps 15 min).
- HS should get a 4s induction, instead of the current 5s.
- Fleet Stance... Legendary version should be normal version, but with a minor aim requirement (always have at least 1 focus or something). Legendary version should allow QS on the move.

Long list, but who cares... It won't get applied anyway ;)

[Calladan]

Do u realize that if just ONE of them is on the next patch notes, everyone will be talking about the big hunter buff up? :) And then whine about that ofc....

[Scatha the Worm]

Do u realize that if just ONE of them is on the next patch notes, everyone will be talking about the big hunter buff up? :) And then whine about that ofc....

And I wouldn't care at all. Even so, those fixes still wouldn't produce the outrageous "nerfme" crits we used to have, and that rks now have. My world would be at peace. Of course that won't happen, so who cares...

[Tobow]

definatly is a personal choice as im mainly etten goer most people there will have bowmaster as more damage = more renown however i trait for a bit of everything 2 blue 3yellow and rest rad or i trait for melee.

its purely a personal choice and sometimes is more tactical to not use it i find its just as good to not have it and makes fights bit different and more tactical play so you become better at class instead of just button bashing biggest moves so you damage the most xD

so no i dont use trait line and i dont like it really!

[Tobow]

And I wouldn't care at all. Even so, those fixes still wouldn't produce the outrageous "nerfme" crits we used to have, and that rks now have. My world would be at peace. Of course that won't happen, so who cares...
ofc this will end in every1 moaning for hunter nerf but defo the last nerf was needed we were stupidly OP the only thing that needs changing is either DoTs in ettens can be cureable at least thats all that needs work and game will be just about balanced for once!

[metallifan]

When they nerfed the weapon damage in B7 I dont think they considered how big impact this could have for hunters, at least compared to a RK.

About the power problem:
- BotR nerfed
- BM-line damage nerfed, but not power cost
- Lower weapon damage
This means more skills needs to be used, they cost more power and thus our power is drained heavily.
Scatha, i agree to most of your posts. :)
And im wondering, when was our campfire nerfed?
There's still alot to fix for Turbine, unfortunately they only look at getting new stuff into the game and nerfing hunters.

And there will always be people whining for hunter nerfs, no matter what.