Single target dps kings, the real truth? [Archive]

OMWiener

03-03-2009, 01:18 PM

Problem is that comparing dps is very hard and requires a lot of data on similar mobs that have similar mitigation to melee/ranged/tactical. Which is hard.

Some people have tried gathering data for this, but in all honesty statistically you would need a decent sample to compare the results. Not only because most analysis needs a decent sample to be objective, but also because you need to have a good representation of the damage done. With random crit chance, it will take quite some shots to get a good representation of the actual damage done.

Furthermore this analysis could only be used to compare raw dps, but would not be a representation of other mobs for example.

The numbers for the RK look fearsome indeed. Hopefully Turbine have done their homework and will not release patch which will make the RK overpowered, but there's is not really any objective judgement we, players, could make about that. Sometimes it feels that a champ is outdpsing me, but he might just be lucky with crits at that time.

Do i fear RK dps now? not really, we still have the range, medium armour, the crits, cc. Even if they could match our dps, we still have our strengths and they will have theirs.

Patas

03-03-2009, 02:22 PM

It seems to me champions were made to be kings at aoe while having a secondary tanking role, hunters were made to be single target kings with a secondary cc role. From what i understood, runekeepers do better aoe than hunters and are formidable healers (seem very capable of being very competitive in single target as well post patch).

Champions are aoe kings bar none (at least i have yet to see people claiming otherwise), considering all these things hunters should have a small single target advantage in my opinion (maybe the nerf was to make the gap not as wide, eg from 20% more single target dps to 10%?).

Regardless of what happens i love archers, would not play anything else for the time being, but a bit fairness (in my eyes) does not hurt.

Patas

03-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Oh and by the way i only started this thread because "everyone" claims the hunter superior single target dps (almost seemed to me as a new player they did 1/3 more than primary dps classes or more..), while in fact it may not be as high if better, especially next patch.

If that is the case, then, more would peraphs stop calling for nerfs?

Many people claim they were made to have an advantage here and it has and will always be like this and while it makes sense (not only from the description but knowing what the other classes can do), it would be very nice to know approximately how much more, if any, to stop overreactions from both sides, the ones who believe this and the others that do not.

OMWiener

03-03-2009, 03:10 PM

Champions are aoe kings bar none (at least i have yet to see people claiming otherwise), considering all these things hunters should have a small single target advantage in my opinion (maybe the nerf was to make the gap not as wide, eg from 20% more single target dps to 10%?).

I personally don't think that comparison holds up. Both classes make trade-offs.
Champ can do both high single and aoe damage, but he has to be in melee. So he's an extra strain on the ministrel in most fights.

The hunter can only do high single target damage (imo slightly higher then champ), but in groups he will not need much taking care off and brings extra utility in the form of CC.

Are the trade-offs equal? Hard to tell really.

Now if you go comparing non-dps classes with the hunter, then yes, the hunter should be better.

Patas

03-03-2009, 04:04 PM

I personally don't think that comparison holds up. Both classes make trade-offs.
Champ can do both high single and aoe damage, but he has to be in melee. So he's an extra strain on the ministrel in most fights.

The hunter can only do high single target damage (imo slightly higher then champ), but in groups he will not need much taking care off and brings extra utility in the form of CC.

Are the trade-offs equal? Hard to tell really.

Now if you go comparing non-dps classes with the hunter, then yes, the hunter should be better.

Is the champion single target dps closer to a hunter than a hunter is to champions aoe? If yes (and i believe the gap is very noticable) then it might be a thing to consider.

What about induction times, being hit will surely be a drawback to hunter dps.

Tanking, as far as i read people even go as far to say they do it as well as guardians. While this is probably overreaction, most people seem to agree they are very nice tanks-offtanks.

Melee disavantage: this could go both ways i presume, if the encounter is made to have alot of movement, hunters might be losing alot of focus, not to mention they can t auto attack with a bow while doing so, maybe problems with line of sight as well. They could also design it in a way ranged would take more dmg in certain encounters. But fair enough, i guess that is a reason hunters do not compete with champion aoe:)

I also heard about a debuff champions have that is supposedly quiet powerfull for dps (take this as a grain of salt i might be clueless here, i just think i read this somewhere)

I know you did not take any "side". Just throwing this out to make you think twice:p.

Regardless, i do not think champions are overpowered, i do think that hunters should be slightly better at single target, though and that is the impression i have and the impression i had just to read the class roles when i first started this game.

tmp

03-03-2009, 05:55 PM

id like to see a better analisis of those RK claims and hunter dps.

Cause at this point all i see is "whaaa RK hit for 2k+ , hunters suck nau!"

While forgeting the RK blew a 10 min cd to use that skill.

I seriously doubt RK will outdps hunters post book 7.
But yeh if that is trully the case then i have to agree that something is wrong
From the little i've read, the heavy dps of rune-keeper post book 7 is likely to come from 'epic conclusion', a skill that has 30 sec cd (when traited) and which hits for ~700-800 damage normally (non-crit) but gets ~500-600 damage bonus for each instance of debuff running on the target; the debuffs coming from critting a hit with traited version of their more basic skills (scribe's spark and ceaseless argument, apparently no cd on these)

Doctorfun

03-03-2009, 06:04 PM

Well all this theorizing about if Hunters should be slightly better, much better or a lot better then Champions/RKs/etc is very nice... saying slightly better seems like the politically correct way to go... but it's leaving out an important aspect: to have similar survivability, a Hunte's DPS has to be significantly higher than a champion's on single target, because we lack the mitigation they have. We need to kill them fast, to be effective.

Imbavince

03-03-2009, 11:50 PM

on the other hand though you could argue with the lack of B/P/E in their DMG stance...though I believe they can stand their ground longer than hunters even then.

OMWiener

04-03-2009, 08:08 AM

on the other hand though you could argue with the lack of B/P/E in their DMG stance...though I believe they can stand their ground longer than hunters even then.

Hard to tell since ministrel are used to healing Champs.

Geren

04-03-2009, 08:28 AM

I don't think RK's will out-DPS hunters even after Bk 7 and but you have to remember that even if the RK dps did get bumped significantly, closer to the hunter numbers (at the moment they're not even in the same ball park) and you start whining that RK's can heal too, RK's cannot heal and DPS at the same time, in fact it takes a lot of time to switch from one to the other. RK's are also easily the squishiest class in the game with absolutely zero escape skills or "oh crud" - buttons.

And you have to admit that the current situation is a bit absurd, a DPS - class that does less DPS than most of the support classes.

OMWiener

04-03-2009, 09:04 AM

Yes but i heard that the RK will be able to switch faster in book 7. I fully understand it's the price RK's pay to do both and i don't oppose the buff ,although the numbers on epic conclusion seem a bit high, with the weapon nerf i doubt we can get that high (4K) with heartseeker crits that's on a 5m CD instead of 30s :P, but that's just guessing really. I just hope you won't get nerfed afterwards becuz they buffed too high.

In fact a skill that does 800 base damage on a 30s CD is a bit much imo (if the stories are true off course)

I think people are slightly upset because healing is very important in any MMO. A class able to fill two very important aspects of the gameplay is potent indeed. But again there is indeed a trade-off:

1) you can't switch immediately
2) you're squishy as hell

A hunter on the other hand has more survivability and doesn't need to switch at all to activate decent CC skills. He does have slight power issues, where the RK has a skill he can use.

In conclusion people are a bit jealous that the RK can perform two very important jobs, but he does indeed make trade-offs for that. Are they severe enough? who knows :P . I think all classes in book 7 are quite balanced (with an exception here and there, burg and guard could use a revision even after book 7), they just need to design the content so that it doesn't favor a particular class too much or at least diverse the favourisme to the classes.

Sidamos

04-03-2009, 10:23 AM

RK can't switch faster but RK gets items which allow him to be attuned into one side.

Imbavince

04-03-2009, 11:22 AM

and honestly we don't whine about the fact that rks might out-dps us, since we don't wish a nerf to anybody, we're just afraid of loosing our primary role even more as in SoA...

Erhnam

04-03-2009, 11:52 AM

From the little i've read, the heavy dps of rune-keeper post book 7 is likely to come from 'epic conclusion', a skill that has 30 sec cd (when traited) and which hits for ~700-800 damage normally (non-crit) but gets ~500-600 damage bonus for each instance of debuff running on the target; the debuffs coming from critting a hit with traited version of their more basic skills (scribe's spark and ceaseless argument, apparently no cd on these)

Just a quick bit of info from a RK about those big numbers (i also have a hunter alt which I love, thats why I lurk this forums from time to time)

Epic Conclusion: 1m30s CD. Does around 700/800 damage, surpases all tactical resistance. After using it, all of our damage skills (be it fire, lightning or ice) will cost 50% more for 30 secs. Requires full damage attunement

It has a normal crit multiplier. Where does all big numbers come? Let me explain

- Trait #1: While using Scribe Spark, we get a 15% of getting a tactical resistance penetrating buff for 20s or so (remember that EC already ignores tactical resistance)
- Trait #2: While using Ceaseless Argument, we get a 15% of getting a damage buff for 20s
- Trait #3, and the killer one: EC gets +1200 crit rating, lower CD (30s), and will consume those buffs in order to do bigger damage (so here it becomes 1100-1600 damage non crit)

The extra crit damage comes from the lightning trait set bonus (+25% crit damage post B7), and some interesting legacys

As you can see, is a skill for use during solo combat (that power debuff is very very nasty), something like your merciful shot. Also, a fire or healing traited RK will never get those numbers. It's similar to your strenght stance

I dont want to have the DPS of a hunter, nor any RK wants. We just wanted to be a DPS class, like stated on char screen creation. If we become kings of single target DPS, I will expect a nerf for us. We should be #2 single target DPS, #2 AoE DPS, and #2 healer. Thats what the devs sold us at MoM launch. Lets see how it becomes after B7. But I dont fear for your supremacy in the single target territory :)

Hope this helps understanding those numbers, how we get them, and what do we have to pay for them.

BTW, reports from US forum stated that RKs are going from 200 DPS to 350 DPS on LoS runs. Where can I check the hunter's numbers? Couldnt find them, and it can be interesting to compare damage

EDIT: All of this is from B7 numbers, for now the traits and EC are working slightly diferent. BTW, buff numbers may be not purely true, I cannot remember them right now

OMWiener

04-03-2009, 12:34 PM

Thanks for the explanation. Much appreciated.

I don't think the comparison with mercifull holds up. Even a fully traited strength stance hunter won't get 800 base damage on mercifull shot pre-book 7. I mostly do around 650 with the skill now. Include the fact the cooldown is 2m30s (or something like that), that our weapon dps is gettin nerfed in B7 and the dev crits for it get nerfed as well.

Although the comparison isn't right (imo), your explanation does help me put things in perspective. I'm not convinced it's all that overpowered since it does look like a solo-skill mostly and prices paid are high. We'll just have to see :)

Cheers

Erhnam

04-03-2009, 12:57 PM

Isn't MS cooldown like 30s?

BTW, just got a bit more of info of the famous 4k crit:

The one-shot is (like all of the spike damage) part traits, mostly luck. I had both Harsh Debate and Thunderous Words buffs up, the Tale of Storm buff up, the Linnod of Subtlety buff up, managed to fire of Epic Conclusion very quickly after one mob died (before my attunement dropped) and it was lucky enough to crit
So that sums 5 traits :P

Anyway, the lightning spec is purely a PVP/solo spec. It's still very dependant on crits, and one cannot fire Epic Conclusion careless or his power will be hurted a lot. Oh, and range is 20m ;)

Dont be afraid for the lightning spec. Any RK who knows that will be going to any raid for DPS'ing, will spec fire, and I still dont have any fire numbers to compare.

Gah, sorry for saying this on the hunters forum, but cannot wait for B7 :) Dont think the sky is falling guys, we still need your pewpew ;)

OMWiener

04-03-2009, 01:15 PM

yes soz 30sec for MS.

Fact is a fully traited BM hunter won't go for a raid either and like i said in B7 we won't come near that damage with nerfed weapons (with an all out damage build)

We'll just have to see wether we'll have to worry or not :) And like you said, we don't have any fire numbers to compare the sustained damage yet. But then again our sustained damage (endurance stance) is a lot lower as well.

Sidamos

04-03-2009, 01:24 PM

Hunters damage in LoS is alike 450-550 dps (mid) atm. Considering there is a loss by 19%
solely by weapons + -5% in strength + ISB reduced. Hunters may end up with between
350-400. That would be 0-15% above RKs.

That's just an assumption. However comparing dps is difficult in real because there are
other factors like downtime, damage taken and so on. So for example 2 classes could
have the same dps but class A still kills like 20% or whatever faster than the other class.

And who starts to compare that with Raids/groups that's an even more complicated case.
RKs are away more power hungry than a hunter. If a RK falls down to CA a hunter will easily
outdamage a RK with QS/Autoattack.

OMWiener

04-03-2009, 01:38 PM

I don't know much about RKs, so apologies, but what icpr is the typical RK running around with? And don't the Rk have a skill to get some power back? Our rk never complained about power in raids at least.

Erhnam

04-03-2009, 02:34 PM

My ICPR is near 1k (around 970 IIRC). If we are healing, its VERY HARD for us to run OOP unless you have zero healing traits and things get messy (aoe damage is a PITA for us to heal). But I guess you are talking about DPS'ing

Yes, we have a blue pot skill (Self Motivation), it restores around 650-700 power, CD 2 mins, attunes 2 to neutral. If traited, after using it we get a -30% power cost buff for 30sec

A better geared/traited RK than me (I stopped playing mine some time ago due to being a non cannon but glassy class ;) ) will have very little power problem if fire traited. Also I'm geared heavier towards tact/crit than ICPR. I think a true raid geared/traited RK will have around 1100 ICPR with no buffs.

Currently, I'm 4F/3Healing traited, 6/6 radiance, and not bad stone/satchel, but still missing a few pieces (only 3.7k morale). During our last watcher (btw we killed it for the first time, and with no captains or burglars :P ), I went healing for phases 1 and 2, and switched to DPS for phase 3. I'm pretty sure that I used a lot less power pots than any of our 3 hunters, and never got a power shot from a LM. Our hunters were always at S:S so of course that has a lot of influence

In short, tipically we have no power problem, specially if fire traited. DPS'ing with lightning, although atm it brings more DPS, is more power hungry (and more risky! Fire has 30m range against 20m for lightning). Self Motivation usually handles our problem if we fire it as soon as it cooldown finish.

About the LoS test, after the patch I'll do a few parsed runs and come here to post my times and logs, so we can compare both efficiency and DPS :)

Sidamos

04-03-2009, 02:51 PM

Hm, depends abit on your LI. In general it's the same LMs or Minstrels have.
Maybe abit less.

Every 3 minutes you can use "Selfmotivation" to get 650-700 power.

If you run oom or not is a matter how and which skills you use. If you start
rather early CA (ceaseless arguments) a RK will never run oom but gimps
his damage. Debuff skills are rather costly for the damage. It also depends
on if the RK heals or does damage and also traits.

Erhnam

04-03-2009, 03:03 PM

Every 3 minutes you can use "Selfmotivation" to get 650-700 power.

It's 2 min :)

http://lorebook.lotro.com/index.php/Skill:Self-motivation

But it attunes 3 to neutral, not 2, my bad on that. Anyway thats meaningless for DPS'ing if you time it well with SW (the only 9R fire DPS skill)

Patas

04-03-2009, 10:33 PM

tmp

04-03-2009, 11:18 PM

Hope this helps understanding those numbers, how we get them, and what do we have to pay for them.
Ahh, so the extra damage comes from buffs which are put on the rune-keeper when they use the basic skills, rather than the debuffs put on their target? Are the buffs granted on each skill use, or just on the crits?

It's potentially worrisome development from PvM creep standpoint, since with book 7 the creeps can to a degree protect themselves from crit damage with new corruptions they receive... but if rune-keeper extra damage came from some kind of 'automatic' self-buffs then well, these corruptions wouldn't help all that much ;)

nightbyday

05-03-2009, 12:17 AM

I..., hunters will shine in single target quickly followed by rks.

I don't think 'shine' is the correct word sort of hazy might be more accurate :p

Patas

05-03-2009, 01:41 AM

I guess the dif should not be great indeed, slightly better instead of shine seems better idd:), eventhough the other 2 seem to aoe more than slightly better than hunters=p.

Erhnam

05-03-2009, 07:56 AM

Ahh, so the extra damage comes from buffs which are put on the rune-keeper when they use the basic skills, rather than the debuffs put on their target? Are the buffs granted on each skill use, or just on the crits?

It's potentially worrisome development from PvM creep standpoint, since with book 7 the creeps can to a degree protect themselves from crit damage with new corruptions they receive... but if rune-keeper extra damage came from some kind of 'automatic' self-buffs then well, these corruptions wouldn't help all that much ;)

Prior B7, those buff were put on the target, so once its dead we lose them. Now the buffs are put on the RK.
Some of them are have a chance to trigger, others are triggered by criticals, and others are put on demand. But any single buff has a trait attached to it

OMWiener

05-03-2009, 08:23 AM

I think Rks being 2nd on single and aoe seems balanced considering the champion/hunter trade offs as well, remains to be seen if they will achieve that goal:)

If all goes well in terms of dps, champions will shine in aoe, quicly followed by rks, hunters will shine in single target quickly followed by rks.

but an RK will be 2nd on healing as well... See the problem?:P

Patas

05-03-2009, 11:23 AM

OMWiener

05-03-2009, 11:42 AM

The problem for the other 2 or Rk? I think if a Rk is viable (being a close 2nd should be enough, eg 10%?). Without talking about things they can bring such as cc/buffs or compliments and also atun shifting being buffed. If a fight was made like 50% aoe and 50% single target, it would probably work better with champ/rk than with champ/hunter. If the hunter only makes up for it by being slightly better at single target in a fight like this a rk would probably be a better choice.

A problem for balance. An rk can do a lot of things and if he becomes too good at them =OP. The damage they were doing was too low i agree, but this buff might prove to be too much. Not only does an RK have some very neat buffs/protections/healing, he will now also have good damage overall (AOE and single). How can a hunter compare to that in groups? Survivability?= not needed cuz you're ranged. CC? MoM sucks when it comes to CC, but ye in some occasions...

Think i'm gonna roll an RK in b7 ^^. The ****load of Li weapons for them is an added bonus, lol :)

Patas

05-03-2009, 12:06 PM

How is hunter cc compared to the other 2, do they even have it ?(the few things i read say yes at least for the Rk, i know champion has a very nice thing called rend but that is not cc:) ). I guess hunter cc/in combat utility is good but it is not at the same level as others more suited for that especially for a dps focused build and it should not be (correct me if i am wrong).

Yes this could be a problem for hunters, it all depends how usefull the slightly more single dps is, ultimately Rk is a hybrid it has to work well doing his/her stuff and most importantly be a good part of the party not a leftover.

If a group takes a hunter over a rk i also expect they should have have their advantages not just disavantages, balancing all this is indeed a problem.

Erhnam

05-03-2009, 12:07 PM

A problem for balance. An rk can do a lot of things and if he becomes too good at them =OP. The damage they were doing was too low i agree, but this buff might prove to be too much. Not only does an RK have some very neat buffs/protections/healing, he will now also have good damage overall (AOE and single). How can a hunter compare to that in groups? Survivability?= not needed cuz you're ranged. CC? MoM sucks when it comes to CC, but ye in some occasio

First of all: our only buffs are the wound/poison prevention. Not exactly game breaker ;) Hunters poison removal is 1000 times better. Oh, and they dont work half of the time, they NEVER prevent armour rends :/

As for doing both things (DPS and healing)... yes and no. As you all know, we cannot do both at the same time. But we lose a lot of healing/DPS power if we are not traited acording for the task. Of course we can get an hybrid build and get some DPS and some healing, but it wont be so great as if purely traited for DPS or healing

Another thing to take into account is that we run OOP amazingly quick when we are AOE'ing (unless they changed it at B7). And they are not as deadly as our ST skills. I would say that we are closer to hunter ST damage than Champ AOE damage. The other side of the coin is that all of our AOE have a debuff component on them (+ induction, - healing, +attack duration...)

And yes, survivality is a good point. You are ranged. We are "semi-ranged". I would kill for having the fire skills available at 40m and lightning skills at 30m. I have yet to reach 4K morale (will do at B7), and I'm under 30% common mit. When things go wrong, thats a very squishy char ;)

The CC part...we have almost no CC. One MELEE mezz with a random duration (5-10 sec, 10-15 traited, 20s CD), one ranged skill with a chance to stun (30s CD), and another melee aoe mezz (same duration as the ST one, 5 min CD). A hunter brings better CC, specially if traited for it (not heavily traited). Yep I agree, for now CC is useless, but I guess that in B7 it will be more important with the DPS nerf

So, in the end, if you want pure dps, bring a hunter, if you think you may need some extra healing in some bits, bring a RK. But we wont get more than the 80% of a hunter's damage, and I will be the first one to ask for a nerf for us or a buff for you because that will be OP indeed. Of course, if you cannot find a Hunter, then a RK will do, even if the fights lasts a bit more ;)

OMWiener

05-03-2009, 12:36 PM

Thanks again for the explanation :)

Scatha the Worm

05-03-2009, 11:35 PM

nightbyday

06-03-2009, 05:44 PM

I suspect Hunters will still be top of the single target dps but only by 10% (maybe 15%max). however when it actually comes down to contribution to felloship DPS overall we might be in for a nasty shock ;p

This got me a little mad

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338788

some champ complaining about champions dps nerf #sigh#

Imbavince

06-03-2009, 07:01 PM

well he does have a point though, he will be hit with a high DMG reduction as well. He does not suffer the skill nerfs however. I can understand every class complaining that relies on weapondmg

MéLAnoR

06-03-2009, 09:04 PM

Burgs don't have crappy dps btw - they do much more than champs
lol
we shouldnt be surprised ; there is so much lack of perception of the game that we will always be on the top list of hatred.

Mcginty

06-03-2009, 11:11 PM

That's pretty much what I've heard coming out of Bullroarer.

Hunter around 500 DPS on Bullroarer.
RK now around 350-400 DPS up from around 150-200DPS as it is now. (less if you've not traited lightening)

Grossly comparing the the two classes excluding the DPS issue:

- Hunters have much greater range, med armour, better B-P-E, superb CC and so on,( and the ever popular taxi ofc :D )

- versus Runekeeper range (roughly the distance of a Warden javelin-ish) and healing that, switching from DPS, takes 5-10secs depending on traits/skills before you can attune to use effectively (during which time the Runekeeper just about useless) and general squishyness.

Coupled with the fact the RK Dev has already said he didn't want RKs competing with Hunters in the single target DPS stakes (will dig out the link tomorrow- too tired atm)
Don't think you guys have anything to worry about :)

Rk have just been made more viable thats all.

All the best

tmp

07-03-2009, 01:16 AM

lol
we shouldnt be surprised ; there is so much lack of perception of the game that we will always be on the top list of hatred.
Think the burglars were doing ~250-270 dps on live when someone ran some test recently. There's a thread in the US forums covering that. They are most definitely not ahead of the champions in dps area, or even close to them...

MéLAnoR

08-03-2009, 07:12 PM

Think the burglars were doing ~250-270 dps on live when someone ran some test recently. There's a thread in the US forums covering that. They are most definitely not ahead of the champions in dps area, or even close to them...
ofc i know they dont do much dps ; however i read burgs can do burst situational dps ( might be good for pvmp) which eats power insane.

Overlord2

09-03-2009, 09:00 AM

Nuke dps in very short time? like 20 secs? = Loremaster ; if lucky minstrel but then long cds

Eeerm, no.

Lore-master don't have less nuke dps then a hunter. Period.
Lore-master have more AoE nuke dps then a hunter/champion in the first 20 seconds, but not single target.

20 seconds remaining.
light of the rising dawn - 520 light damage.
16 seconds remaining.
ancient craft
14 seconds remaning.
lightning storm - 1.1k lightning damage.
6 seconds remaning.
ents go to war - 1k fire damage.
0 secons remaining.

Those are our biggest nukes. Which totals up to 2.7k damage in 20 seconds. And we just blew ALL our biggest cooldowns.

Now the hunter shall we.

20 seconds remaining.
pop burn hot
18 seconds remaning.
heartseeker. 3k damage. (+/-)
12 seconds remaining.
swift bow 2k damage.
9 seconds remaining
penetrating shot 1.5k damage
7 seconds remaining
quick shot 700 damage (or more?)
-out of power.

Now, that totals up to 7.2k damage, without auto attacks and crits :D

So.. the lore-master has more nuke dps in 20 seconds? Think not, our inductions are to long and for our biggest hitting skill we need to debuff our enemy first.

EDIT: ow and the lore-master dps is with his dps line. If the lore-master uses group support it's approx 70% of that damage.

Anda%

10-03-2009, 01:55 PM

.
.
Those are our biggest nukes. Which totals up to 2.7k damage in 20 seconds. And we just blew ALL our biggest cooldowns.

Now the hunter shall we.

20 seconds remaining.
pop burn hot
18 seconds remaning.
heartseeker. 3k damage. (+/-)
12 seconds remaining.
swift bow 2k damage.
9 seconds remaining
penetrating shot 1.5k damage
7 seconds remaining
quick shot 700 damage (or more?)
-out of power.
.
.

You forgot to mention that 'out of power' means we blew ALL our skills not just the ones with the biggest cooldowns ;)

not arguing, just adding the last point to the list

Viceciceror

10-03-2009, 04:41 PM

aye.. but the point was some 1 said hunters have less DPS in 20 seconds then lm's

ValgrenDaar

10-03-2009, 05:37 PM

Eeerm, no.

Lore-master don't have less nuke dps then a hunter. Period.
Lore-master have more AoE nuke dps then a hunter/champion in the first 20 seconds, but not single target.

20 seconds remaining.
light of the rising dawn - 520 light damage.
16 seconds remaining.
ancient craft
14 seconds remaning.
lightning storm - 1.1k lightning damage.
6 seconds remaning.
ents go to war - 1k fire damage.
0 secons remaining.

Those are our biggest nukes. Which totals up to 2.7k damage in 20 seconds. And we just blew ALL our biggest cooldowns.

Now the hunter shall we.

20 seconds remaining.
pop burn hot
18 seconds remaning.
heartseeker. 3k damage. (+/-)
12 seconds remaining.
swift bow 2k damage.
9 seconds remaining
penetrating shot 1.5k damage
7 seconds remaining
quick shot 700 damage (or more?)
-out of power.
.

ofc you forget to use a pet on the LM, lets say lynx for the sneak attack etc and another potential few thousand damage

Erhnam

12-03-2009, 11:41 AM

I still want to see a trial of sustained DPS of the three classes. Fervour champ vs fire RK vs endurance hunter. I have the nasty feeling we're not so far up the top (ie 20% more than rk) as everyone seems to think.

So I guess I would like to see a raid setup of the three classes against some standarized mob (foundations troll perhaps), and evaluate DPS. Extra Healer and tank would be needed, since both hunt and rk are induction based. But... that will require quite some work and cooperation... We'll see

I'm up to test this whenever we get the oportunity. I think the EM caveclaw can be a perfect target for this, plenty of morale to test and easy mob ;)

Another way to test it is in ettens, with some defilers healing a creep and taking turns to parse damage (5 mins could be enough). Whoever kills the creep wins :P

hasassin

12-03-2009, 12:25 PM

MéLAnoR

12-03-2009, 01:23 PM

OMWiener

12-03-2009, 01:30 PM

how was the test conducted? Did you have to kite, were your inductions interrupted etc?

hasassin

12-03-2009, 02:12 PM

is this pre book 7?
if so i'm curious if you can re-test after b7 hits. :)

hahaha zor o iş biraz b7 den sonra:P

nightbyday

12-03-2009, 03:32 PM

I suspect this is pre book 7 and tested by standing in door way (which is good way to see how much DPS you can pour out on a static target).

post book 7 it will proably be the same just the difference between the number one slot and everyone else will be reduced.

Patas

13-03-2009, 01:59 AM

i did some tests about sustained dps in dark delving first boss.78k morale mob.after several tests in same condition. i used food and pots only.and a friend of mine tested with his champion.results
burglar:
best time:4 min 39 seconds. 280 dps.
avarage:5 min 260 dps.
hunter: i couldnt test enough but did 3 times.all endurance stance.not traited
best time:4min 55 seconds.
avarage:5min 15 seconds.
champ:
best time: 3min 38 seconds.with cbr.

this is sustained single target dps results.but if we think about short time single target dps hunters still r the winners.not much more then a champion but still.

20 second burst dps is alot different imo.hell no way to catch up hunters burst dps. for 20 sec i think it is
1st hunters
2nd.champs and burglars( if u get some crits in row when position)
4th.lms-rk
6th.captains.

its my opinion. i might be wrong.

From what i read in the us forums good hunters go from 500 to 550. I believe it is strenght stance and ofc traited for max output, wich well is way above that champion. Not sure how much time you can sustain with strenght stance but some people seem to be able to use it in long fights with good gear, pots and a good tank.

Hunters would not be single target champions otherwise and probably a gimped "nuker" with such low numbers compared to champion wich outperforms them in aoe.

These numbers were sustained for at least 4/5 mins as far as i remember. I also read in the same post captains could "sustain" 400 and champions close to that (a bit more or a bit less not sure now sorry). If it is a 20 min fight then the str stance thing won t probably work but i can t test that myself that s what i read.

hasassin

13-03-2009, 03:58 AM

From what i read in the us forums good hunters go from 500 to 550. I believe it is strenght stance and ofc traited for max output, wich well is way above that champion. Not sure how much time you can sustain with strenght stance but some people seem to be able to use it in long fights with good gear, pots and a good tank.

Hunters would not be single target champions otherwise and probably a gimped "nuker" with such low numbers compared to champion wich outperforms them in aoe.

These numbers were sustained for at least 4/5 mins as far as i remember. I also read in the same post captains could "sustain" 400 and champions close to that (a bit more or a bit less not sure now sorry). If it is a 20 min fight then the str stance thing won t probably work but i can t test that myself that s what i read.

yes US hamburger kids testing in library 3.8k morale mob. and ofc str stance.swift bow + mercifull byebey mob about 3 seconds.3800/3=1270 dps or sth like that. is this means dps?hey look how great dps i have. its different way to test dps. tbh it doesnt mean dps.in str stance i dont think a hunter lasts more then 1-1.5 min. maybe even less.

give me 2 lms spamming power to me then i can have some nice dps results. but if u dont have power forget about dps. truth is champs overdps hunters for long fight even single target.

Patas

13-03-2009, 05:36 AM

Patas

13-03-2009, 06:07 AM

hasassin

13-03-2009, 06:14 AM

I will try to be more precise it was "sustained" dmg in strenght stance, wich i am sure took more than 2 mins test and power consumables were probably used, i do remember very well it was a ST damage comparassion.
But yeah you can call it short term sustained dmg i agree (if it is below 4 mins like you are saying, that is not what i recall anyway, and it is something i can t test myself)), however a 2 mins fight is far from being a burst fight either. And thank you for your math explanation but i know very well the dif of burst dmg and damage over time.

Regardless with endurance stance they were doing alot higher than that, 400ish dps if i recall correctly, like captains and champions. So i still see a big gap in what i have been reading and that... I would not be surprised in long sustained fights if a hunter starts to struggle either. I am not trying to completly discard the data, i just find it very weird to see alot of people talking about hunter ST dmg in single targets and excelling at it or at least to be on par with captains or champions.

i tested with a guardian. again^^. it took to kill 78k mob 1 min 55 second.i was in str stance during fight.food and pots used. i dont remember if we used conj.but if mob has 5k more morale it ll be alot longer couse we were both out of power.i dont know how much dmg guardian or i did.

burst dps is for me about 10-20 seconds i think. and we hunters r unbeatable in this situation.also i m not sure but i think foundation trolls killing time is the fastest with hunter.

long time ago also we tried to finish a captain. a champion and hunter contest. captain had 6.5k morale if i m not wrong. i finished about 6 seconds and 10 seconds depends on crits.champion finished about 8-12 seconds.but it was long time ago it might be wrong

hasassin

13-03-2009, 06:25 AM

Just found this http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=243101&page=8. Take a look at post 111. And no i am not looking at the hunter that is being given power. Things to consider, does the fight have a significant part of aoe? Is the fight long enough to be considered sustained?

I do not know i have never been there myself, what i have been reading is that it has some aoe, it is long and induction delays can/will occur from time to time.

yes i have read this before. 424 dps str stance hunter. its normal. and reveal weakness+ telling mark dmg.it is a big deal between %13 to %20 dmg.but 424 dps hunter prolly the huntertank and he hits watcher alot longer then 373dps champ. also there r lots of conj in there so power is not a problem most of time.

yes its a long fight about 20 mins to 40 mins.

Patas

13-03-2009, 06:33 AM

But look at the 2nd hunter that was my focus actually, it is not the "tank" right? And it seems to be on par with the best champion? Since the author says the first hunter is the one that gets power i take it a "normal" hunter needs the endurance stance here.

What about aoe is it significant (example 15% or more of your champion s total damage)?

To go back to strenght stance again, imagining a fight would last 2 mins wouldn t a hunter be ahead easilly?.

Patas

13-03-2009, 08:08 AM

Anyway a quick math, far from being accurate but a guess.

If your tanking guardian was doing 40% of your dps (by the way got a bit confused if you were traited for dps or not) then you would be doing more than 400 dps and the guard 270. This would be above the cbr champion by a significant margin (they actually can t afford the cbr thing right? in normal situations) over the 1 min and 55 fight lenght at least. They also bring a very nasty armor debuff, wich would increase your dps further.

Sidamos

13-03-2009, 09:17 AM

You 2 have a strange way to discuss about something like this...

Beside the door isn't really a good test-area for a ranged class. Also classes
with long inductions have a disadvantage.

Patas

13-03-2009, 07:24 PM

I did mention induction delays before^^.

Calladan

09-04-2009, 01:21 AM

Got a bit confused with all this numbers, but I see that we are not top single target dpsers as we should (talking as hunter). Even if the numbers r not totally correct and the circumstances of the measurements are questionable, hunters should be at the top of the single target DPS list without efford and with a safe distance from the second (Rk-Champ?). At least that's how I understand the word "Nuker". We cant debuff (which is OK), cant do much CC (which is acceptable, np with it) but not top DPSers?

Silmahad

09-04-2009, 09:40 AM

I still want to see a trial of sustained DPS of the three classes. Fervour champ vs fire RK vs endurance or precision stance hunter. I have the nasty feeling we're not so far up the top (ie 20% more than rk) as everyone seems to think.

So I guess I would like to see a raid setup of the three classes against some standarized mob (foundations troll perhaps), and evaluate DPS. Extra Healer and tank would be needed, since both hunt and rk are induction based. But... that will require quite some work and cooperation... We'll see

Scatha asked the right question and it is still not really answered. Burst dps parces with hunters in S:S are futile, because this is NOT our dominant group stance. With a relative good geared tank we can maybe hold up precision.

...and exactly this is the whole point. RKs have pretty good and always present aggro dumb abilities, hunters have beneath notice on a longer cooldown (even if outmaxed on your legendary weapon), that's all.

My feeling tells me a hunter in endurance and even precision won't catch a RK by far and even if they would be on the same line, it would be hilarious if you look on the abilities a RK can bring to the table. Even if RKs need some time to switch attunements, it's just already a big bonus to switch for one boss or difficult trashgroup encounter into healing attunement and for another into damage attunement during an instance run. Both need not to happen within one fight and it would be already an advantage a hunter will never be able to conter.

With one sentence:

Turbine invented a new class, opened the box of the Pandora and it happened what almost always will happen by doing this in MORPGs, it has totally ****ed up the class balance.

Usually such a mess wouldn't make it onto the Liveservers, but we all know about Turbine's Betatesting...

In other games like WoW for example, where minmaxing plays an important role for group- or raidsetup, just to beat an encounter a few hours earlier as another guild, such flaws will be executed immediately and the "weaker" classes will be excluded and replaced (Holy Paladin <-> Holy Priest anyone?)

Let's see how forgivable the so praised friendly customer/player base in LotRO will be.

Emli

10-04-2009, 05:38 PM

Scatha asked the right question and it is still not really answered. Burst dps parces with hunters in S:S are futile, because this is NOT our dominant group stance. With a relative good geared tank we can maybe hold up precision.

...and exactly this is the whole point. RKs have pretty good and always present aggro dumb abilities, hunters have beneath notice on a longer cooldown (even if outmaxed on your legendary weapon), that's all.

My feeling tells me a hunter in endurance and even precision won't catch a RK by far and even if they would be on the same line, it would be hilarious if you look on the abilities a RK can bring to the table. Even if RKs need some time to switch attunements, it's just already a big bonus to switch for one boss or difficult trashgroup encounter into healing attunement and for another into damage attunement during an instance run. Both need not to happen within one fight and it would be already an advantage a hunter will never be able to conter.

A hunter in endurance or precision probably won't catch a LIGHTNING RK , but running lightning in a raid is about the equivalent of a strength stance for hunters. A RK who is lightning specced will run out of power fast and will have much worse aggro management.
There would be a problem if a FIRE RK would outdps a hunter by far, but this hasn't been tested yet.

And about easily switching attunements to heal/DPS, then a DPS traited RK is about as usefull in healing as a Trapper traited Hunter is in DPS-ing, there's a huge difference in traits. Add to that the extreme squishiness and you can see why the RK isn't as godmode as many seem to claim.

Silmahad

11-04-2009, 09:47 AM

And about easily switching attunements to heal/DPS, then a DPS traited RK is about as usefull in healing as a Trapper traited Hunter is in DPS-ing, there's a huge difference in traits. Add to that the extreme squishiness and you can see why the RK isn't as godmode as many seem to claim.

Fact: He can switch
Fact: he might not be able to perform as a mainhealer, but I WATCHED damage traited RKs healing, while playing my minstrel and it is usefull, even very usefull and makes the minstrels job much easier. I don't want his single target heal, his healstone alone is all I want as a minstrel to give me the time to do my bolster courage thing.

Damned, I even want the mobs run for his stone and not for me, so I have time to get my aggro dumb in.

A damned healstone of a damge traited RK still heals more than my lousy untraited single target HoT, I will be maybe able to uphold on 2 targets with a maxed legacy on my weapon.

His squishiness in group play doesn't matter that much, thats a solo thing or maybe an Etten issue.

Emli

11-04-2009, 11:22 AM

Fact: He can switch
Fact: he might not be able to perform as a mainhealer, but I WATCHED damage traited RKs healing, while playing my minstrel and it is usefull, even very usefull and makes the minstrels job much easier. I don't want his single target heal, his healstone alone is all I want as a minstrel to give me the time to do my bolster courage thing.

Damned, I even want the mobs run for his stone and not for me, so I have time to get my aggro dumb in.

A damned healstone of a damge traited RK still heals more than my lousy untraited single target HoT, I will be maybe able to uphold on 2 targets with a maxed legacy on my weapon.

His squishiness in group play doesn't matter that much, thats a solo thing or maybe an Etten issue.

But a minstrel can also switch and without an annoying attunement system. Just drop war-speech and you can go from the DPS-god (As shown by todes in the US forums) to a healing god. A DPS-traited minstrel can heal much better than a DPS-traited RK.

The healing stone is only 39 morale every 3 secs, hardly that helpfull in a sticky situation and if your single target HoT is acctually weaker than that, then that skill is seriously broken. And it will definately not hold aggro over a minstrel, the HoT is so weak that the mobs will only be on the rock till the first heal goes off by a minstrel.

And squishyness does matter in group play, first thing that comes to mind is the last boss in GS, a few of those AOE's can rip a squishy to pieces.

nightbyday

12-04-2009, 01:41 AM

But a minstrel can also switch and without an annoying attunement system. Just drop war-speech and you can go from the DPS-god (As shown by todes in the US forums) to a healing god. A DPS-traited minstrel can heal much better than a DPS-traited RK.

The healing stone is only 39 morale every 3 secs, hardly that helpfull in a sticky situation and if your single target HoT is acctually weaker than that, then that skill is seriously broken. And it will definately not hold aggro over a minstrel, the HoT is so weak that the mobs will only be on the rock till the first heal goes off by a minstrel.

And squishyness does matter in group play, first thing that comes to mind is the last boss in GS, a few of those AOE's can rip a squishy to pieces.

Leave minstrels alone there is nothing wrong with them.

Emli

12-04-2009, 09:34 AM

Leave minstrels alone there is nothing wrong with them.

There is nothing wrong with RK's either yet there's crying for the nerf bat around every corner.

Wethrindir

13-04-2009, 11:23 AM

There is nothing wrong with RK's either yet there's crying for the nerf bat around every corner.

I think the whole point people are trying to make is that the supposed single target dps class, isn’t the best at single target dps anymore.
So people are crying for a hunter buff, not a minstrel/RK nerf :P

Telaron70

13-04-2009, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Emli http://community.codemasters.com/forum/images/lotro-theme/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5087960#post5087960)
There is nothing wrong with RK's either yet there's crying for the nerf bat around every corner.

Originally Posted by nightbyday http://community.codemasters.com/forum/images/lotro-theme/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5087471#post5087471)
Leave minstrels alone there is nothing wrong with them.

welcome to my world ;)

Scappydog

13-04-2009, 10:12 PM

The biggest danger in this game actually seems to be saying " I'm happy with my class, it's where it should be ".

Hunter's said it after MoM, RK's are saying it now.

No class should be nerfed or feel that a nerf is being demanded by other players. All classes should have the ability to solo comfortably and have the skills/abilities to fulfil their assigned class role in a fellowship.

RK's are here to stay, whether you agree or disagree with the introduction of the class.

As a Hunter do I feel I can make a valueable contribution to a Fellowship? Debatable.

Will nerfing the RK solve the Hunter problems? No.

What will solve the Hunter's problems? A long hard look by the Devs at what they actually want this class to be capable of, clearly defining what that role is and giving us the skills/traits to carry that role out efficiently.

I don't want to see any class nerfed to make me feel good about my own class again even though there were numerous calls for us to be 'nerfed' since MoM launched.

Erhnam

14-04-2009, 09:07 AM

So people are crying for a hunter buff, not a minstrel/RK nerf :P

Then why there are RK threads in every class forum? :P There should only be threads asking for hunter buffs, and maybe 1 or 2 comparing both sustained DPS (which reminds me that Scatha and myself have a test to do...maybe this weekend)

Nyadach

18-04-2009, 10:15 AM

I'm probably coming at this from another angle...ok our dps has taken a huge hit (kind of), but is it really the fact its been decreased, or the fact certain mobs have bugged defenses against ranged? I'm actually believing the latter since damage on much isn't to bad for us, yet throw in for example a idol in Lorien and our melee skills will out damage our ranged attacks (which is utterly bonkers).

We can still go out there, and gun down certain mobs in exactly the same number of hits as we used to do...while take another and its an utter pig to take out. The problem is inconsistant ranged defences. Not nerf RK's or others, its make the targets able to be hit by us. When a heatseeker is landing for 200 damage, something is severly messed up with stats on things. With the defences of mobs as they currently are, we're not only being out gunned currently by RK's and chimps, we are now actually being out damaged (depending on target) by guardians, and minstrals.

Throw in the Lorien dps bonus' where our's buffs our crits by 10% (ok yes that sounds nice, yet sadly utterly useless when many of us are already probably at cap anyhow), while melee gets a 20% dps increase across the board and nicely by passes the crit bonus here. I'm whining on paper here about these two, but on a whole it seems melee gets a huge bonus while we get the short straw again.

Silmahad

18-04-2009, 02:54 PM

Throw in the Lorien dps bonus' where our's buffs our crits by 10% (ok yes that sounds nice, yet sadly utterly useless when many of us are already probably at cap anyhow), while melee gets a 20% dps increase across the board and nicely by passes the crit bonus here. I'm whining on paper here about these two, but on a whole it seems melee gets a huge bonus while we get the short straw again.

That is my biggest problem at moment. IF this bonus enlarges the crit cap over 15% it's a real nice set of jewelery, but my suspicion is (as I know Turbine), that it will not and only pump up devastating crits by a minor amount and this will mark this set as useless, as I wouldn't wear this ring, cause it's utter crap (might again...) to a couple of rings you can collect in Moria.

In my boredom I will achieve this set nevertheless, cause what would I want to buy for my leaves instead? I already have the recipes for instruments and critted for my minstrel, I have the B15 horse and have no need for the Galadrim (the rumours say the Galadrim won't take so many hits by far, so it is just a normal white horse...) and I have a lvl 60 SA bow and just have no intention at all, to take part in the "worst-gift-out-of-gift-box-championship" (lvl 4 relict or 15k rune anyone?).

Sidamos

20-04-2009, 08:17 AM

that bonus you talk about is a buff for 30s which is a +10% crit chance to ranged
attacks

Silmahad

20-04-2009, 01:17 PM

that bonus you talk about is a buff for 30s which is a +10% crit chance to ranged
attacks

Yep, but will it be added to your current crit rate, which is usually 15% with buffs (so 25% in the sum for 30 seconds) or need to obey to the 15% crit cap as an absolute cap and therefore only pump up devastating crits by a bit?

I know a thumbrule says % will be added, + critrating has to obey the 15% critcap. So it should add, but you know it's Turbine...

Any information from people who have tested, it is appreciated.

OMWiener

20-04-2009, 01:41 PM

imo, its not that good. I would rather have the champ jewellry but then for ranged damage. I don't remember the exact numbers, but the +% damage looked a lot more appealing then the +% crit chance.

I fail to see where turbine wants to go with our class. At first i thought we were nukers and depended highly on crits (seeing as we get focus from it through a certain trait) .

Then came moria and they nerf crit rate. We didn't get partial crits like other classes for their roles (partial blocks etc). So okay i thought we're just nukers and we were very good at it in MoM.

Now they nerf our nuke ability as well. Then they give champs a + damage jewell and us a +crit jewell which fades in comparison to the champs one. So we are critters again?

I know i'm ranting/whining, but honestly Turbine *seems* to have no clue where to put the hunter compared to the other classes. If only our Dev would communicate with us and let us know where we are going, cuz honestly i'm sick of retraiting/regearing because turbine decides hunters are something different this month. What will it be next month....

Scappydog

20-04-2009, 02:00 PM

DangerDan is probably too busy working on his Dev Diary for the next expansion where he will tell us how he's listened to the community and what wonderful new things he has in store for us. That's probably about the right time scale for another brief fix before they 're-balance' us again.

MéLAnoR

20-04-2009, 02:56 PM

Yep, but will it be added to your current crit rate, which is usually 15% with buffs (so 25% in the sum for 30 seconds) or need to obey to the 15% crit cap as an absolute cap and therefore only pump up devastating crits by a bit?

I know a thumbrule says % will be added, + critrating has to obey the 15% critcap. So it should add, but you know it's Turbine...

Any information from people who have tested, it is appreciated.btw just to inform hunter players :
those jewels dont work in pvmp.
/facepalm.

Silmahad

20-04-2009, 04:29 PM

btw just to inform hunter players :
those jewels dont work in pvmp.
/facepalm.

OMFG (message to short, but that is all I have to say)

nightbyday

20-04-2009, 05:01 PM

Then why there are RK threads in every class forum? :P There should only be threads asking for hunter buffs, and maybe 1 or 2 comparing both sustained DPS (which reminds me that Scatha and myself have a test to do...maybe this weekend)

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346798
will tell you about class performance and sustained DPS.

Check it and see how far hunters down the list.

I still think hunters have the best potential of doing regular big burst dps and probably the most crits over time but due to CD's, inductions and power issues (etc etc) it makes the class very much that, burst then quiet, burst then quiet (bit like a LM in some ways).

a personal example of comparison;
My hunter will bring a level 60 orc down in about 5-6 hits (2/3 if i crit) but my dps build minstrel will do the same, the difference is my hunter will have more 'kill the mob with crit chances' than my minstrel. Then there is power, low fate and low = low regen in and out of fights, hunter is around 200 whilst minstrel is around cap. So how is my hunter better at dps or even single target dps?

Running the LOS instance my hunter is faster (i have to trait to include the +power from deep concentration), the only reason is CRITS and bigger base damage on skills. it worth saying here my minstrel will have better surviveability even in light armour but i am not likely to die on either toon in this instance. Due to the fact the hunter will do bigger and better single skill dps it make the hunter faster, single skill +single target and faster = best single target dps. (you compare this to other classes in this instance but remember if they have high surviveability and huge AoE damage you can't compare).

My thoughts:
I wouldn't say my hunter is 'broken' but i do think book7 was a nerf to far and ISB correction was plain wrong (third hit less than an auto shot) along with righteous bow. They should have left those two skills alone OR added some form of + ranged damage to items/legacy/class slot/chant (not all of them just one :p ).

I am still out as a jury (so to speak) as to if LM is better single target dps along with RK. Looking at various parse's and threads/posts i am leaning towards hunters still best single target (and only JUST), then LMs (bust with superior CC) follwed by RKs.

comparing the three:
Single target dps (based on crit chance and base dps with no % crit + damage items)
hunter
LM
RK
(its the % bonus and + damage that mucks this all about)

sustained dps
RK
Hunt
LM

CC
LM
Hunt
RK

surviveability
LM
RK
hunt

easy to play
Hunt
RK
LM

i could go on and on but it comes down to you just can't seperate these three classes or indeed any classes deffinativly any more, the margins and differences ahve become just to 'blurred' and thats the issue. I can only summarise again book 7 was a nerf to far and the crown or single target DPS fits very loosly on a hunters head.

Emli

20-04-2009, 06:46 PM

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346798
will tell you about class performance and sustained DPS.

Check it and see how far hunters down the list.

I still think hunters have the best potential of doing regular big burst dps and probably the most crits over time but due to CD's, inductions and power issues (etc etc) it makes the class very much that, burst then quiet, burst then quiet (bit like a LM in some ways).

surviveability
LM
RK
hunt

i could go on and on but it comes down to you just can't seperate these three classes or indeed any classes deffinativly any more, the margins and differences ahve become just to 'blurred' and thats the issue. I can only summarise again book 7 was a nerf to far and the crown or single target DPS fits very loosly on a hunters head.

The link you gave is NO indicator for sustained DPS in group. In a group situation your target will be tanked and you will be free to shoot at it. In this test you have mobs coming at you in melee range, setting back your inductions and lowering your DPS( RK's,MNS and CHM's don't use induction skills so it doesn't lower theirs). And due to you being hit and wasting power the test is highly influenced by ICMR and ICPR which the tactical classes will have way higher due to the fate stat. So this places HNT's WAYYYY behind their real DPS position. This test is just an indication on how classes solo, it isn't a DPS test.

Also about the survivability part, HNT is definately better than the RK. It has superior CC, medium armour and higher base morale.

Agreed on the rest though, hunters need to be buffed up a bit, although not as much as they were pre book 7.

Erhnam

21-04-2009, 07:32 AM

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=346798
will tell you about class performance and sustained DPS.
That has NOTHING to do with sustained DPS. First of all, that is a bunch of burst DPS fights. Second, when a hunter hasa mob at melee, his DPS drops A LOT, while other classes can DPS just as fine. Of course they will be down the list. They are going to be meleeing 1/3 of the time, at least.

a personal example of comparison;
My hunter will bring a level 60 orc down in about 5-6 hits (2/3 if i crit) but my dps build minstrel will do the same, the difference is my hunter will have more 'kill the mob with crit chances' than my minstrel. Then there is power, low fate and low = low regen in and out of fights, hunter is around 200 whilst minstrel is around cap. So how is my hunter better at dps or even single target dps?
Thats burst DPS. Now try burning a 15k mob and if the minstrel outdps you, you should recheck your playstile (not talking about you specifically, its a generla "you" :P )

I am still out as a jury (so to speak) as to if LM is better single target dps along with RK. Looking at various parse's and threads/posts i am leaning towards hunters still best single target (and only JUST), then LMs (bust with superior CC) follwed by RKs. I dont know how do you play, but I can tell you one thing: If the mob has more than 10k, there is no way a LM will outdps me. NEVER. The LM will outdps me while burst aoeing, but again, if the fight last longer than 10 seconds, I will go outdps any LM.

nightbyday

22-04-2009, 06:25 PM

Emli

22-04-2009, 08:53 PM

At Erhnam and Emli...

yes your both right to a degree.

Of course in fellowships/groups/raid a hunter is free to dps 'at will' as long as his power hold and thats where they own the crown for dps over time, well i hope this is the case. i certainaly would not expect an Lm to out perform a hunter here as usally the LM has another role.

As for melee encounters hunters discription does say they can melee and currently few situations mean they can avoid at least some melee contact, of course if you have traited with no set backs on needful haste you don't melee the mob ;p

Burst dps i thought that was what a hunter was ment for 4-5 shots target dead when soloing... and no a minstrel should not be out damaging a hunter on single targets from ranged but at close range AoE thats another case.

As for surviveability i still say hunter is lower than an rk on base value, healing use of stuns etc BUT of course one could say desperate flight owns them all :p

mind you have seen how some RK's just go #splat# i might rethink that

I still think hunters are capable of killing targets fastest, even solo. Because their attacks still have the highest base damage. (at least higher than RK's who do 200-400, with the exception of epic conclusion around 600, on their attacks) The huge hits hunters pick out to show the overpoweredness of other classes are crits or devastates, which hunters can beat on a lucky dev crit aswell. And that's proven by the LoS parse in the US forums ( the one where each level 60 orc is measured as a separate encounter and hunters are first with RK's following close by).

And for survivability, the only heal a RK can use while DPS-ing is prelude to hope, which is a tiny HoT so small it's hardly noticable (although it does help I guess).
And doesn't have stuns but a stun, which is non-reliable due to the fact that it is only 63% chance if max attuned and lower if you are attuned lower.
We do also have a daze, but it is also random, being 5-10s (+5 traited) with a 20 sec cooldown meaning it can't be used to keep a mob out of the fight. Almost forgot, we also have perfect imagery, an AOE mez of the same duration as the single target one but on a long cooldown (about as reliable CC as a hunter mez). And a slow that breaks on damage, or if traited for, -30% move speed that lasts 10 seconds with a cooldown of 20, meaning it can't be slowed at all times.
Compared to the higher base morale, medium armour, traps, AOE root, fear, mez (surely not a blinding flash, but every little helps), a slow that can be kept on at all times, survivability is not where the RK shines,

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 06:27 AM

I still think hunters are capable of killing targets fastest, even solo. Because their attacks still have the highest base damage. (at least higher than RK's who do 200-400, with the exception of epic conclusion around 600, on their attacks)

You should see the numbers on a hunter ;). Auto-attack:190, quick shot:220, swift bow: 250-250-140, penetrating shot: 300. Yes, these are personal numbers, but honestly a lot of people overestimate our damage by way too much. They still think we do 300+ each shot. Some hunters might, but i certainly don't.

The huge hits hunters pick out to show the overpoweredness of other classes are crits or devastates, which hunters can beat on a lucky dev crit aswell. And that's proven by the LoS parse in the US forums ( the one where each level 60 orc is measured as a separate encounter and hunters are first with RK's following close by).

Welcome to hunters pre-book 7 where big crits were used to show our so-called overpoweredness. That US-parsing doens't 'prove' anything and it must be the first amongst many other parsings that shows an advantage for the hunter. Anyway i don't want to get the RK nerfed as long as we get a buff again.

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 06:35 AM

I still think hunters are capable of killing targets fastest, even solo. Because their attacks still have the highest base damage. (at least higher than RK's who do 200-400, with the exception of epic conclusion around 600, on their attacks) The huge hits hunters pick out to show the overpoweredness of other classes are crits or devastates, which hunters can beat on a lucky dev crit aswell. And that's proven by the LoS parse in the US forums ( the one where each level 60 orc is measured as a separate encounter and hunters are first with RK's following close by).

And for survivability, the only heal a RK can use while DPS-ing is prelude to hope, which is a tiny HoT so small it's hardly noticable (although it does help I guess).
And doesn't have stuns but a stun, which is non-reliable due to the fact that it is only 63% chance if max attuned and lower if you are attuned lower.
We do also have a daze, but it is also random, being 5-10s (+5 traited) with a 20 sec cooldown meaning it can't be used to keep a mob out of the fight. Almost forgot, we also have perfect imagery, an AOE mez of the same duration as the single target one but on a long cooldown (about as reliable CC as a hunter mez). And a slow that breaks on damage, or if traited for, -30% move speed that lasts 10 seconds with a cooldown of 20, meaning it can't be slowed at all times.
Compared to the higher base morale, medium armour, traps, AOE root, fear, mez (surely not a blinding flash, but every little helps), a slow that can be kept on at all times, survivability is not where the RK shines,

Yes hunters kill the fastest on normal mobs. Signature mobs, a 30s fight which is still deep in the burst DPS department, and things starts changing radically (Check the FoS Pulpum thread in the US forums). But most of the concerns here are about group roles, not about survivability, which RKs don't seem to want to admit is pretty good on their own. And keeping a prelude to hope up at all times is helpful, and a lot more if you place the rock before combat.

Even then, I think you are filling the hunter's original role better that we are at it right now, and that is the problem, because RKs should be lagging behind us, not the other way around. What freaks me out, is not the 6k crits you can get, or the 30% crit chance you can buff yourselves, etc... It is the insane rate at which RK's score 1k-3k crits regularly, and on skills with no induction, and some even castable on the run. Even when a hunter could score 5k+ crits, it would only be on HS only and traiting on a complete trait set line, seriously gimping responsiveness and probably CC, and using BH which will leave you as a sitting duck without power (FYI HS costs 1k power, PS 800, and so on when using this). And HS is still a 5m cd 5s induction skill. A RK's epic conclusion is comparable to Merciful Shot, because of cd and behaviour, and I've seen it: RKs score more crits on EC than we on MS. Still, the fact that all RKs are running around instances using almost exclusively their Storm skills is comparable to runing around in Strength, so something is definitely not right in this, be it content design or class mechanics. And the problem is one of my friends is telling me the fire skill are probably even better but without the flashy numbers...
And comparing CC now...

Hunter:
Bard's Arrow 15s fear (+5 traited), 30s cd, 1.5s induction, 40m range, and the nasty posibility to pull more adds with it. Legendary.
Rain of Thorns 15s 5 target AoE root, 3 min cd, 6focus, 40m range. Legendary.
Cry of the Predator 10s fear (+5 traited), 1m cd, instacast on the run, 20m range, and the nasty posibility to pull more adds with it, works only on beasts. Normal skill.
Disctracting Shot 10s mezz, 3m cd, 1.5s induction, 40m range (requires 5class traits+legendary to be 30s mezz 1m cd, in a trait line that reduces DPS by about 30% at the minimum). Normal skill.
Crafted traps (various roots) on a 5m shared cd. Passive skill.
Barbed Arrow 10% snare 10s duration, 2s cd, 40m range. Normal skill.
Quick Shot 40% snare (Strength: Stance only), 8s duration, no cd, 40m range. Normal skill.
Set Trap 30s root, 1m cd, ooc (unless traited). Normal skill.
Set Snare ?s snare, 1m cd, ooc. Normal skill.

RK:
Shocking touch 5-10s (+5 traited) mezz, 20s cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Vivid Imagery 5-10s (more traited) 3 target AoE mezz, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Armour of Storm chance of 5s mezz on attackers, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Shocking Words chance of a 5s AoE stun, 25s cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Chilling Rethoric 70% snare (+30% snare on 10s duration if traited), 30s cd, 30m range. Normal skill.
Distracting Winds 10s 50% 5 target AoE snare, 5m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.

It seems to me RKs aren't lacking or anything like it in the CC department. And they're definely the kiting kings. I didn't mind until I saw a RKs CC is sometimes preferable in groups to mine (relying on root and fears). And a hunter's role is at some point said to be CC as well.... whatever. The thing is... CC is comparable, and it shouldn't.

I'm not asking Rks to be nerfed, but for us to get back to something fun to play and with a decidedly good role for groups. But I don't like that someone tries to come here to convince us that we're just fine with arguments that fall on their own weight.

Practically the only clear advantage of a Hunter over a RK is max range, medium armour (which translates to about -10% incoming damage at max), and some minor extra avoidance. But survivability... I don't believe Hunters are doing better there, or to do better, you are giving up on that max damage of 4/5 bowmaster by at least 10% more.

Juss

23-04-2009, 06:59 AM

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 07:17 AM

Juss

23-04-2009, 07:25 AM

And I guess you're the troll in line today... What's the point in this post? You clearly didn't read even half the thread, and are just trying to provoke some flamish responses...

I've been reading the threads here(including this one) long enough, don't worry.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 07:32 AM

Heh, I fail to realize what the hunters here try to achieve? You really thought that the ability of killing mobs with one button-click, which hunters had pre-book 7, is going to stay?
It was so great to read after MoM, how hunters were patting each other on the backs, that they have given much more versatility. Infact they were given possibility to slaughter everything with 1-2 buttonclicks. Focus->Rain of thorns->Swift bow/penetrating/merciful. Add odd heartseeker into the menu and that was it. Now when we can't wtfpwn everything any more and we need to plan a bit more, now devs have destroyed the class? To me it feels, that NOW the class has been given more versatility.

RK-s do more damage? So what.. Does it affect your gameplay if someone sees bigger damage numbers?

That's pretty short-sighted as it does effect my fun ingame. I chose the hunter for a reason and that was DPS and i wanted to fullfill that role in the fellowship. So it does affect me if someone else can fill that role and on top of that beat me at it as well.

When a dev decides to level the dps from dps-classes, you make them less mandatory for the FS. For a champion that isn't much of a problem because he still brings a lot of AOE damage with him. The story changes for a hunter though, because he doesn't bring much to the FS apart from his damage (we do have some powerfull situational CC, but i have yet to see a FS take us for that reason...). As such they gimped our role severely and our fun as we get the feeling we just don't contribute to the FS.

On top of that, it's the feeling of choosing a DPS-class, making some sacrifices to balance it, yet seeing several other classes approach us DPS-wise. Sorry i didn't choose this class to be only marginally better at dps. Every class should shine at their role and so should dps-classes. You see, nobody comes close to the healing a ministrel can put out. Why people are all of sudden biased to dps classes, is beyond me. Would be fun to see the reaction of the ministrels if every class out there could heal within 30% of their healing output.

Slaughter everything with 2 shots? Please...Another great example of the exaggeration. I have yet to see that happen, even with dev crits on normal mobs. Usually took me around 5-6 shots to kill a normal lvl60 mob.

More diversity? Let's see now:

- With our reduced dps trapper of foes becomes even less of an interesting trait line. I can't see anyone traiting more then 1-2 traits into it.
- All of our trait line legendaries are useless to slot. Cool-burn: penalties too high. Daze shot: see above, Huntmen: fleet stance is still a joke.
- Bowmaster has become a lot less appealing as the power usage is insane.
- Due to the power and damage nerf, say hi to cookie cutter builds again. Any hunter not building for ICPR after b7 is seriously gimping his sustained damage making him even less viable for the fellowship.

Can't really see these changes leading to more diversity. I had to plan in Moria as well when pulling three mobs. Yes we were killers on one mob, but still required care for multiple mob pulls. If you didn't play your hunter like that in MoM, sorry for you, but it does not warrant a nerf like this.

Juss

23-04-2009, 08:19 AM

That's pretty short-sighted as it does effect my fun ingame. I chose the hunter for a reason and that was DPS and i wanted to fullfill that role in the fellowship. So it does affect me if someone else can fill that role and on top of that beat me at it as well.

And you still do the DPS. You are more experienced hunter than I am, so I am sure that if I can do it with my random 3rd age crossbow, which I bought for 200s from AH, you can do it several times better.
How it affects you? Have you been kicked from group, because "Let's kick this hunter and take a RK instead, because RK makes more damage"?

When a dev decides to level the dps from dps-classes, you make them less mandatory for the FS. For a champion that isn't much of a problem because he still brings a lot of AOE damage with him. The story changes for a hunter though, because he doesn't bring much to the FS apart from his damage (we do have some powerfull situational CC, but i have yet to see a FS take us for that reason...). As such they gimped our role severely and our fun as we get the feeling we just don't contribute to the FS.

On top of that, it's the feeling of choosing a DPS-class, making some sacrifices to balance it, yet seeing several other classes approach us DPS-wise. Sorry i didn't choose this class to be only marginally better at dps. Every class should shine at their role and so should dps-classes. You see, nobody comes close to the healing a ministrel can put out. Why people are all of sudden biased to dps classes, is beyond me. Would be fun to see the reaction of the ministrels if every class out there could heal within 30% of their healing output.

If devs are tuning the DPS, they can't only consider the fact that hunters are best single target DPS. There are several things to consider. For example group play, solo ability etc. And there is more than just numbers and status that some classes need to see on paper.
About noone coming close to minstrels healing. I have been in lowbie groups as a main healer with RK(until level 35) and seen higher level RKs in moors when they have healed me. I could say, that in single target healing RKs come very close to minstrels, at least they are able to fill the role of main healers(probably not in every instance/raid I think). But I haven't seen a minstrel complaining so far, that they can't have fun any more, because RK-s can heal.

Slaughter everything with 2 shots? Please...Another great example of the exaggeration. I have yet to see that happen, even with dev crits on normal mobs. Usually took me around 5-6 shots to kill a normal lvl60 mob.

Is it? I admit, that I didn't play hunter much in Moria, but I played loremaster and grouped with hunter. And guess what. I rarely could use skills with longer inductions. Mob was usually dead before the inductions finished. Does it mean, that only single target DPS "kings" can have fun in a game? And when it comes to minstrels/guardians for example, they need 10 minutes to kill one mob(remember minstrels pre war-speech and guardians from same time)?

More diversity? Let's see now:

- With our reduced dps trapper of foes becomes even less of an interesting trait line. I can't see anyone traiting more then 1-2 traits into it.
- All of our trait line legendaries are useless to slot. Cool-burn: penalties too high. Daze shot: see above, Huntmen: fleet stance is still a joke.
- Bowmaster has become a lot less appealing as the power usage is insane.
- Due to the power and damage nerf, say hi to cookie cutter builds again. Any hunter not building for ICPR after b7 is seriously gimping his sustained damage making him even less viable for the fellowship.

Can't really see these changes leading to more diversity. I had to plan in Moria as well when pulling three mobs. Yes we were killers on one mob, but still required care for multiple mob pulls. If you didn't play your hunter like that in MoM, sorry for you, but it does not warrant a nerf like this.

I admit, that there are useless stuff for hunters, but I didn't have those things in mind. What I had in mind, was that now the power management for example makes things more interesting. I can choose to be careful with damage and conserve power, or I can deplete my power fast and dish out some nice damage.
And pulling 3 mobs(yes, level 60) still works with rain of thorns->kill them all, so even this hasn't changed with the nerf.

Sidamos

23-04-2009, 08:25 AM

And comparing CC now...

Hunter:
Bard's Arrow 15s fear (+5 traited), 30s cd, 1.5s induction, 40m range, and the nasty posibility to pull more adds with it. Legendary.
Rain of Thorns 15s 5 target AoE root, 3 min cd, 6focus, 40m range. Legendary.
Cry of the Predator 10s fear (+5 traited), 1m cd, instacast on the run, 20m range, and the nasty posibility to pull more adds with it, works only on beasts. Normal skill.
Disctracting Shot 10s mezz, 3m cd, 1.5s induction, 40m range (requires 5class traits+legendary to be 30s mezz 1m cd, in a trait line that reduces DPS by about 30% at the minimum). Normal skill.
Crafted traps (various roots) on a 5m shared cd. Passive skill.
Barbed Arrow 10% snare 10s duration, 2s cd, 40m range. Normal skill.
Quick Shot 40% snare (Strength: Stance only), 8s duration, no cd, 40m range. Normal skill.
Set Trap 30s root, 1m cd, ooc (unless traited). Normal skill.
Set Snare ?s snare, 1m cd, ooc. Normal skill.

RK:
Shocking touch 5-10s (+5 traited) mezz, 20s cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Vivid Imagery 5-10s (more traited) 3 target AoE mezz, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Armour of Storm chance of 5s mezz on attackers, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Shocking Words chance of a 5s AoE stun, 25s cd, melee skill. Normal skill.
Chilling Rethoric 70% snare (+30% snare on 10s duration if traited), 30s cd, 30m range. Normal skill.
Distracting Winds 10s 50% 5 target AoE snare, 5m cd, melee skill. Normal skill.

That comparison is abit meh... First if you talk about CC. What's CC really for you ?
A possible stun isn't CC. A slow isn't CC.

To correct some things. Shocking Words isn't aoe and the chance depends on attunement. Armor
of Storm needs a lightning rune stone which you usally don't equip. It has 30% chance by hit.
Means a mob needs to hit you and then it has a 30% chance to mez it. Vivid Imagery and Distracting
Winds are very close range aoe. To trait shocking touch is like traiting +dot damage for hunters.
Makes no sense. The same goes for Chilling Rethoric. It still breaks by a dot. These are all very
situational skills and more alike panic buttons.

True is without legandary traits the ability of the hunter to CC is very small,too.

Erhnam

23-04-2009, 08:30 AM

Yes hunters kill the fastest on normal mobs. Signature mobs, a 30s fight which is still deep in the burst DPS department, and things starts changing radically (Check the FoS Pulpum thread in the US forums). But most of the concerns here are about group roles, not about survivability, which RKs don't seem to want to admit is pretty good on their own. And keeping a prelude to hope up at all times is helpful, and a lot more if you place the rock before combat. I know my RK is pretty survivable, but its not something easy to achieve. I know RK (Isim, Maki...well Maki is learning now ;) ) that struggle when they get ambussed by 2 adds when killing one. I can kill 5 at a time without preparation, 6 if I do the pull, never tried 7 (yet ;) )The problem is not the number of skills available to us for survivality (I still think hunters have more options, not counting DF :P )but they are harder to use, and we are alot more squishy (less morale, less armour, no melee skills, no might, no agi which means no evade and no parry)

Even then, I think you are filling the hunter's original role better that we are at it right now, and that is the problem, because RKs should be lagging behind us, not the other way around. What freaks me out, is not the 6k crits you can get, or the 30% crit chance you can buff yourselves, etc... It is the insane rate at which RK's score 1k-3k crits regularly, and on skills with no induction, and some even castable on the run. Only one skill can reach 3k, EC ;) But yes. When we stack crit buffs, (Perfect Imagery is like Burn Hot, but much better ;) )our crit rate is insane for 15s (around 50%), and we start getting crits beetween 800-1400 depending on skill and other buffs. I said it a lot of times: We need a raise in base damage and a decrease in crit multiplier. I dont know what crit multiplier I have, but I'm sure is near 100% extra damage (not coubnting base crit multiplier, ofc)

: RKs score more crits on EC than we on MS. Not really. Yesterday I run 2 crafting instances without getting a single EC crit :) Probably the problem is that we spam it a lot more

Still, the fact that all RKs are running around instances using almost exclusively their Storm skills is comparable to runing around in Strength, so something is definitely not right in this, be it content design or class mechanics. And the problem is one of my friends is telling me the fire skill are probably even better but without the flashy numbers...
That would be me XD The reason that I dont retrait for fire in instances is because im lazy :p I will do for the turtle, tho ;)

Shocking touch 5-10s (+5 traited) mezz, 20s cd, melee skill. Normal skill. Correct. Lowers our attunement (not game breaking if you are at full attunement, but a pain if you are still raising it in whatever direction)

Vivid Imagery 5-10s (more traited) 3 target AoE mezz, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill. Requires 6 damage attunements. Traited (whith lightining legendary capstone) it becomes Perfect Imagery. PI is 10-15s mezz, a bit more damage, and gices a +30% light crit chance for 15s

Armour of Storm chance of 5s mezz on attackers, 3m cd, melee skill. Normal skill. Requires a lightning stone equiped, lowers attunement. With a frost stone it becomes a chance for a snare (cannot recall numbers, around 30% for 10s). With a fire stone, it becomes a chance to put a dot on the attacking mob

Shocking Words chance of a 5s AoE stun, 25s cd, melee skill. Normal skill. Single target, not AOE. Starts at 0% and gets +7% for each red attunement, so 63% max (can be raised with a legacy, tho)

Chilling Rethoric 70% snare (+30% snare on 10s duration if traited), 30s cd, 30m range. Normal skill. 1s induction, the traited version is semi broken: if the firts damage applied is from a dot source, the 30% slow will not trigger. The 30% slow is not affected by the frost debuff duration legacy. Anyway it works fairly well, but its only useful for soloing big mobs or spars/ettens. For soloing, the most clever use is fire it and switch to another mob ;)

Distracting Winds 10s 50% 5 target AoE snare, 5m cd, melee skill. Normal skill. Lowers attunement, its also a deaggro :)

It seems to me RKs aren't lacking or anything like it in the CC department. And they're definely the kiting kings. I didn't mind until I saw a RKs CC is sometimes preferable in groups to mine (relying on root and fears). And a hunter's role is at some point said to be CC as well.... whatever. The thing is... CC is comparable, and it shouldn't. Yeah, we are pretty good at kitting, providing we trait CR. But our CC is oriented towards kitting and our own survivality, I dont think is comparable in a group enviroment, specially if we dont trait our mezzs

I'm not asking Rks to be nerfed, but for us to get back to something fun to play and with a decidedly good role for groups. But I don't like that someone tries to come here to convince us that we're just fine with arguments that fall on their own weight.

Practically the only clear advantage of a Hunter over a RK is max range, medium armour (which translates to about -10% incoming damage at max), and some minor extra avoidance. But survivability... I don't believe Hunters are doing better there, or to do better, you are giving up on that max damage of 4/5 bowmaster by at least 10% more.
I still think you can do a bit more damage that us, but I'm pretty sure you could use a few unnerfs (at least, swift bow and botr), and probably a 5-10% more damage to remove any doubt on wether who does more damage.

Oh, and sorry for still lurking this forum, didnt recall im a troll :rolleyes:

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 09:10 AM

I know my RK is pretty survivable, but its not something easy to achieve. I know RK (Isim, Maki...well Maki is learning now ;) ) that struggle when they get ambussed by 2 adds when killing one. I can kill 5 at a time without preparation, 6 if I do the pull, never tried 7 (yet ;) )The problem is not the number of skills available to us for survivality (I still think hunters have more options, not counting DF :P )but they are harder to use, and we are alot more squishy (less morale, less armour, no melee skills, no might, no agi which means no evade and no parry)

Oh, and sorry for still lurking this forum, didnt recall im a troll :rolleyes:

You're probably true about a RKs survivability, but it's a matter of a class with such a huge amount of active skills, it makes the difficulty a little higher, but the survivability options are there. Being able to hit on the run makes a HUGE difference as well, but that is also something that is part of a somewhat advanced playstile: kiting. Kiting with a hunter is very possible, but the skill mechanics isn't very kiting-friendly, and fail horribly if there are adds.

A hunter's experience in multi-pulls is also quite difficult... I know I can solo 3 mobs at a time if jumped, and 5-6 if planning the pull. Probably more if I considered spending in traps, or traited for CC... but the first feels like a rip-off (should consider levelling weaponsmith to usable levels) and second... well, traiting for CC is pretty much useless unless going all the way to the capstone, which is elsewhere commented on it's absurd trade-offs.

Then again, I'm also quite experienced on this char, and I've experienced a lot in my day trying to solo big stuff, doing crazy pulls, etc... I would think the average joe with a hunter alt would probably get creamed if jumped on by 3+ mobs, so I guess it's about the same there.

Silmahad

23-04-2009, 09:22 AM

I still think you can do a bit more damage that us, but I'm pretty sure you could use a few unnerfs (at least, swift bow and botr), and probably a 5-10% more damage to remove any doubt on wether who does more damage.

I am pretty convinced that a lightning specced RK will do more damage and a fire specced RK will at least do the same damage as a hunter in precision stance (I will mark the most important words in bold) and that is plain wrong in comparison to other things a RK can bring to the table of a FS and I don't talk about switching attunements within a fight, it's already an advantage if a RK can switch from one role (good healer -> mediocre DD, cos not specced for it or good DD -> mediocre healer) to another for different fights within one instance.

Sorry, to say this so harsh, but this I call "totally ****ed up class balance".

..and to a poster, who asked why hunters aren't sorted out already, this is for luck LotRO, where many people arent' much interested in class and game mechanics, in WoW you WILL be sorted out by a raidguild hunting for first kills and maybe get a mercy slot in the raid afterwards, so someone is there to grab the hunter loot.

If turbine decides to develope more such encounters like Gurvand 2.0 (one word: inductions) or Watcher 2.0 (where in my eyes hunters can already be replaced by RKs, cos our corruption removal is sad, tanking that frigging tentacle a RK can do too, it's acid damage, the only little advantage a hunter may have is to free people better off tentacles cos of 10m more range, that's all), then we will see.

An unnerf of ISB and BoR would be a good start. I don't mind the weapon dps nerf, that's ok for me.

Kheld

23-04-2009, 09:22 AM

The Class performance thread is currently proving what everyone suspected.

Hunters were over nerfed & RK's were over buffed DPS wise.

I predict some tweaks to both classes within 6 months.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 09:23 AM

And you still do the DPS. You are more experienced hunter than I am, so I am sure that if I can do it with my random 3rd age crossbow, which I bought for 200s from AH, you can do it several times better.
How it affects you? Have you been kicked from group, because "Let's kick this hunter and take a RK instead, because RK makes more damage"?

Actually people have suggested to replace a hunter with an RK in the Watcher fight. They prefer an RK over a hunter in DD, because of inductions.

If devs are tuning the DPS, they can't only consider the fact that hunters are best single target DPS. There are several things to consider. For example group play, solo ability etc. And there is more than just numbers and status that some classes need to see on paper.
About noone coming close to minstrels healing. I have been in lowbie groups as a main healer with RK(until level 35) and seen higher level RKs in moors when they have healed me. I could say, that in single target healing RKs come very close to minstrels, at least they are able to fill the role of main healers(probably not in every instance/raid I think). But I haven't seen a minstrel complaining so far, that they can't have fun any more, because RK-s can heal.

I'm sure they would be whining if *every* class could do that. Considering group play and solo play? easy: make solo mobs soloable by all classes (easier by dps classes off course) and make elite mobs thougher in instances so that you still need dps classes.

Is it? I admit, that I didn't play hunter much in Moria, but I played loremaster and grouped with hunter. And guess what. I rarely could use skills with longer inductions. Mob was usually dead before the inductions finished. Does it mean, that only single target DPS "kings" can have fun in a game? And when it comes to minstrels/guardians for example, they need 10 minutes to kill one mob(remember minstrels pre war-speech and guardians from same time)?

You think it was different from me? I couldn't even finish swift bow before the champ/captain/guardian took down the mob. So first, you're looking at the wrong class, second it's not a problem of class design, it's a problem of mob/instance design. If they made mobs in instances tougher and make some classes mandatory, people wouldn't be pwning the instances with 5 champs/hunters (which they can still do btw).

I admit, that there are useless stuff for hunters, but I didn't have those things in mind. What I had in mind, was that now the power management for example makes things more interesting. I can choose to be careful with damage and conserve power, or I can deplete my power fast and dish out some nice damage.
And pulling 3 mobs(yes, level 60) still works with rain of thorns->kill them all, so even this hasn't changed with the nerf.

I wo'nt argue with your interests, but i find power management with a hunter very boring tbh. Cuz there's nothing else to do besides damage. It's not like you can actually say: Hey i'm gonna conserve my power a bit and help the group a bit in another way. No, all you can say (imo) is: hey i'm gonna push quick shot 20 times cuz i can regen power that way.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 09:25 AM

A possible stun isn't CC.
.

So a possible root and a shaky fear ( not guaranteed to be 15 sec) is CC?

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 09:26 AM

That comparison is abit meh... First if you talk about CC. What's CC really for you ?
A possible stun isn't CC. A slow isn't CC.

To correct some things. Shocking Words isn't aoe and the chance depends on attunement. Armor
of Storm needs a lightning rune stone which you usally don't equip. It has 30% chance by hit.
Means a mob needs to hit you and then it has a 30% chance to mez it. Vivid Imagery and Distracting
Winds are very close range aoe. To trait shocking touch is like traiting +dot damage for hunters.
Makes no sense. The same goes for Chilling Rethoric. It still breaks by a dot. These are all very
situational skills and more alike panic buttons.

True is without legandary traits the ability of the hunter to CC is very small,too.

Ok, maybe a got a skill description wrong there. I was just trying to illustrate a point: RKs have plenty options for survivability. And it's just fine, I'm just saying that Hunter's aren't really better there, but it0s true they are probable easier to play.
And I do consider snares/stuns/mezz/fear/root as valid CC. I also listed some hunter CC which as such is pretty much a load of crap, so I would dare say it is about even.
I presented that list related to survivability, so specially if you consider them alike panic buttons, it's very much relevant.

Regarding the chances of CC actually doing something... Remember our CC skills undergo a whole lot of checks... miss+block/evade+resistance, and unless you run precision while solo (I don't, and stance dancing has it's limits, you can't be switching for every damn skill), there's nothing you can do about those rolls.
It's quite the lottery at times, specially with every mob getting ninjafied in Book 7, seems like they all have bat-gear on them now (ok, exaggerating, but I swear: I'm getting more block/evades than ever, not willing to test that tho, requires to manually count avoidance events off the screen... pass).

The other point was that RKs have comparable CC when considered in a grouping enviroment, with the single target mezz being quite useful (more that Bard's Arrow, that brings unwanted adds), and the AoE as well. The only true Hunter CC skills for fellowships is Rain of Thorns, since Fear is usually a dangerous bet. Traps...? yeah sure. Mezz? maybe, but on a 3m cd a 10s mezz can hardly be counted on.

Scappydog

23-04-2009, 10:00 AM

The only true Hunter CC skills for fellowships is Rain of Thorns, since Fear is usually a dangerous bet. Traps...? yeah sure. Mezz? maybe, but on a 3m cd a 10s mezz can hardly be counted on.

My experience since Book 7 shows that even RoT is fairly useless in instances. I'm usually getting 3/5 fails.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far in these discussions is a comparison between Hunter and RK threat in Fellowship play.

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 10:04 AM

My experience since Book 7 shows that even RoT is fairly useless in instances. I'm usually getting 3/5 fails.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned so far in these discussions is a comparison between Hunter and RK threat in Fellowship play.

I've been running Precision 24/7 in groups, and unless I do my best to be the 1st to wtfpwn a string of crits or I get a 30s solo time with some mob, either 1 of 2 things happens: 1) Warden does his job and gets it or 2) RK gets him.

Walhalla

23-04-2009, 10:13 AM

tanking that frigging tentacle a RK can do too, it's acid damage, the only little advantage a hunter may have is to free people better off tentacles cos of 10m more range, that's all), then we will see.

Parry / evades from the rk are crappy. Unlike the ones from the hunter.

Non common mitigations due to medium armour is better then the non common mitigations due to light armour. Thus hunter has the advantage again in here.

Base morale on hunters is higher, thus making them again a better choice to range tank.

So again, i doubt that changing into a runekeeper for ranged tanking is that much better.

Telaron70

23-04-2009, 10:15 AM

Well, I have noticed since bk7, several of the top Hunter's in my kin are now very busy levelling the RK's they rolled out of curiosity when MoM released. Wrong or right I guess they've made up their minds which class is/will be most desirable now.

It seems to me that RK's in particular amongst the tactical dps classes are using exactly the same arguments to justify themselves as Hunter's used pre bk7 i.e. that yes they can do huge damage - especially on crits, but that these always come at a cost and they only happen given a certain set of circumstances. In light of what happened to the last class that was perceived to be OP'd, I 'd guess there is an element of "this is too good to be true" nervousness there.

I remember plenty of posts saying that Hunter's "would use that argument because they know they are way OP'd and are just trying to avoid the inevitable" Complete crap of course, but people tend to believe there is no smoke without fire.

Well that particular argument didn't work for us, we got hit squarely in the face with the nerf bat and it wouldn't surprise me if RK's got a little of the same. I must emphasise that I am NOT asking for that to happen - in fact very few, if any Hunter's are. We know how demoralising nerfs can be. Been there, got the T-shirt (several t-shirts in fact :D)

For sure the balance of power has swung away from weapons based dps in favour of tactical. Too far? maybe maybe not, but tbh THAT isn't what bothers me. Champs can still hold their own because their skill set wasn't completely messed up as well as having weapons dps scaled back. We, on the other hand..... well you've heard it all here a million times.

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 10:19 AM

Parry / evades from the rk are crappy. Unlike the ones from the hunter.

Non common mitigations due to medium armour is better then the non common mitigations due to light armour. Thus hunter has the advantage again in here.

Base morale on hunters is higher, thus making them again a better choice to range tank.

So again, i doubt that changing into a runekeeper for ranged tanking is that much better.

This I agree with. A Hunter is definitely better at ranged tanking than a RK. But it's not much of a class role.

Juss

23-04-2009, 10:22 AM

I won't quote your message, will make all too long.. typing it just in paragraphs.
To OMWiener
But have you been really kicked for being a hunter because RK? If you have been, then it is sad, seriously. But when there will be significant gap between hunter and RK, where would it leave RK then? I mean that minstrel is healing better and hunter is outDPS-ing them by mile. RK-s would never get into the groups you described.

Every classes singletarget DPS isn't coming close to the hunters DPS, why bring this as an example then? If every class would outDPS hunter, I would start whining too, but they aren't.

Not about class design?
It is about class design. The guardian/minstrel example I was using in earlier post. Those classes were designed to heal and tank and this was only thing they could do and they were good at it. But as the game is providing more and more solo content, they werent competitive(I could kill 3 mobs with my burg by the time it took guardian to kill 1). Yes, they could have changed the mobs, so it would've taken them to kill mobs faster.. But then hunters would've been oneshotting everything. See where I am going?
Same thing now. Hunters were shooting themselves through content like hot butter went through butter. There was 2 options, to make mobs tougher or nerfing hunter(well 3rd too, to buff all others classes). If they would've made mobs tougher. Hunters would've been OK, but some other classes would've been struggling.

Well, if they would increase the DPS of hunters, how would it help in doing something else besides damage? You would still do damage, just more of it. DPS/power ratio will be better too, so you don't need even to conserve it that much. As far as I understand, it dumbs the hunter class down even more than it is now.

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 10:41 AM

But have you been really kicked for being a hunter because RK? If you have been, then it is sad, seriously. But when there will be significant gap between hunter and RK, where would it leave RK then? I mean that minstrel is healing better and hunter is outDPS-ing them by mile. RK-s would never get into the groups you described.
It's a matter of utility and balance. Where a class with more utility presents itself in the same role capabilities of a one-trick pony the difference is clear. It is truly a great advantage to have a class which can swing from a full fledged healer/DPSer to a good secondary DPSer/healer. A hunter has little utility, therefor the needed advantage. Most RKs agree there should be a gap in the damage output as well.
Every classes singletarget DPS isn't coming close to the hunters DPS, why bring this as an example then? If every class would outDPS hunter, I would start whining too, but they aren't.
When considering burst damage, a lot of classes come close and even ahead. LMs and Minstrels clearly too far out from where they should be. That shouldn't be that way either, or balance that failure in the nuking aspect of the class design with some short term (burst?) utility/survivability then.
See http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=258048
Not about class design?
It is about class design. The guardian/minstrel example I was using in earlier post. Those classes were designed to heal and tank and this was only thing they could do and they were good at it. But as the game is providing more and more solo content, they werent competitive(I could kill 3 mobs with my burg by the time it took guardian to kill 1). Yes, they could have changed the mobs, so it would've taken them to kill mobs faster.. But then hunters would've been oneshotting everything. See where I am going?
Same thing now. Hunters were shooting themselves through content like hot butter went through butter. There was 2 options, to make mobs tougher or nerfing hunter(well 3rd too, to buff all others classes). If they would've made mobs tougher. Hunters would've been OK, but some other classes would've been struggling.
They could have balanced solo without taking the easy road of making everyone a great burst DPSer, so it IS a content design issue. It's only common sense that DPS classes have it easier (ie faster really, not easier) with solo content. And it's a MMORPG after all, and solo content is getting too extensive... one of the great fails in Moria and Lorien is the enourmous lack of normal fellowship quests, another content design problem.
Well, if they would increase the DPS of hunters, how would it help in doing something else besides damage? You would still do damage, just more of it. DPS/power ratio will be better too, so you don't need even to conserve it that much. As far as I understand, it dumbs the hunter class down even more than it is now.
From what I recall in these and other several threads, the critics about damage are from the relative impression that a Hunter's usefullness and desirability in a group have been greatly lowered, too much, maybe even lower than SoA times, when it was already kinda bad. And as far as dumbing down the play, the nerf only generates cookie-cutter builds, and further forces people to slot the same traits, legendaries, legacies, etc.
But it has also been mentioned a lot of times the desired changes to the trait sets, legendaries, and even normal skills, to be able to diversify the gameplay. The nerf was defintely counterproductive in the aspect of play experience. Here's my personal wish list. (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5114338&postcount=35)

Sidamos

23-04-2009, 10:44 AM

Well like i wrote it's a question how you define CC.

Imo only the following skills is really CC:
Burglar: Riddle
Hunter: RoT, Trap, Distraction Shot(traited)
Loremaster: Binding Flash (max 3 red), Root, Root by Cracked Earth

Then there are the semi-CC-skills: the fears of the minstrel and hunter.

Then skills follow that would be CC if they had a certain duration but so they are
more debuffs. I also consider every stun as debuff and not as CC. A mez which lasts
at best 10s goes more into the category debuff than CC. Every slow in Lotro is imo
a debuff and not a CC-skill. It could be considered as CC if it had a decent duration.

The other point was that RKs have comparable CC when considered in a grouping enviroment, with the single target mezz being quite useful
nah not really and except 16th hall I don't know a place where I should really need to be afraid
of using Bard's.
The only cases I consider to use shocking touch is if a troll stacks up too many buff or an orc
tries to launch a heal or heals up. But even then most of the time i use my other skill to do so,
because range > running to the mob.

Juss

23-04-2009, 11:35 AM

They could have balanced solo without taking the easy road of making everyone a great burst DPSer, so it IS a content design issue. It's only common sense that DPS classes have it easier (ie faster really, not easier) with solo content. And it's a MMORPG after all, and solo content is getting too extensive... one of the great fails in Moria and Lorien is the enourmous lack of normal fellowship quests, another content design problem.

This DPS has its drawbacks too.. LM for example if he traits for DPS, the CC abilities will suffer a lot. And I would like to see a group, who will accept a LM, who is traited for DPS, but mez lasts for 5 seconds only. But when LMs aren't traited for DPS, then I think you agree, that their DPS isn't so high. So this DPS setup is made only for soloing, which affects the gameplay of hunters in no way.. except the fact, that you know they make such damage and in worst case can be categorized as jelaousy.

As for the lack of normal fellowship quests.. I like it, I am in very small kin and I like to play with them. I don't need to wait hours to find a minstrel in PUGs to wipe then because someone was thinking he was playing Rambo(this is other topic though:D ).

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 11:35 AM

Scatha summed it up pretty nicely. Just wanna one thing to this

Well, if they would increase the DPS of hunters, how would it help in doing something else besides damage? You would still do damage, just more of it. DPS/power ratio will be better too, so you don't need even to conserve it that much. As far as I understand, it dumbs the hunter class down even more than it is now

Exactly because you don't have to press yourself to do damage, you have the opportunity to trait differently, focus on different skills ie play with builds, shot rotations and the small utility we have. right now, we have to pour everything out of our traits and builds to maintain our main role of dps, disregarding everything else=cookie cutter.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 11:43 AM

So this DPS setup is made only for soloing, which affects the gameplay of hunters in no way.. except the fact, that you know they make such damage and in worst case can be categorized as jelaousy.

Aye how stupid can I be. Here I thought that by picking a class described as a dps/nuker I would be...I don't know...best a nuking perhaps? :)

Sorry but it does affect me. It makes a mockery out of my class choice and it makes a mockery of the effort I put into him (imo)

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 11:47 AM

This DPS has its drawbacks too.. LM for example if he traits for DPS, the CC abilities will suffer a lot. And I would like to see a group, who will accept a LM, who is traited for DPS, but mez lasts for 5 seconds only. But when LMs aren't traited for DPS, then I think you agree, that their DPS isn't so high. So this DPS setup is made only for soloing, which affects the gameplay of hunters in no way.. except the fact, that you know they make such damage and in worst case can be categorized as jelaousy.

As for the lack of normal fellowship quests.. I like it, I am in very small kin and I like to play with them. I don't need to wait hours to find a minstrel in PUGs to wipe then because someone was thinking he was playing Rambo(this is other topic though:D ).

Not really, I've seen groups of tactical classes specced for solo rush through content thanks to the high burst. It's the same trivialization that we were held accountable for before. The only true places where you might need to put some thought into build is for raids, and that is a very very small part of the whole content. Also in the context of small groups, it's mostly about burst, and then again, hunters aren't able to press their advantage up to what should be a masterful specialty with many trade-offs.

If Trapper of Foes didn't have the ridiculous DPS drops, or the PS increased cd/root, I would probably run it complete a lot of times, even if I lost the º1 spot is ST damage. But the tradeoffs are huge, and the gains are slim. As I've said many times, the legendary should allow chain mezz, the ps root and increased cd should be gone, and the DPS overall reduction shouldn't climb over 15%. That's symptomatic of dumbed down gameplay and cookie-cutter builds.

Regarding FS quests, I don't want solo content to be slimmer, I wan't more and varied content. What happened to the FS quests around in every area, with even some elite places for questing? That added diversity to the game, which is now mostly gone. For groups there are only instances.

MéLAnoR

23-04-2009, 11:57 AM

i want to see a full trapper of foes traited hunter compared to a full CC traited loremaster as a dps strat compare ; wanna organise something?
both issues are not dpser in roles but if they re close in CC aspect there left dps to compare.

and some people beleive that a class with better burst ability in solo play with non dps main role is not to be taken seriously cause their solo play doesnt interfere with other classes solo play.
which is wrong cause it strongly interferes in pvmp.
Why hunter is nerfed and why did we see in your term jealously threads prebook7 on forums asking for hunter nerfes cause they re eating solo content crazy fast?
And pvmp of course ; hunter solo leeched everything and it also has an effect over this changes noone can claim opposite.
Now some other non dps classes can outburst dps hunter and that strongly enhances their solo play ; good for them.
but when they dont want to group and leech like prebook 7 hunters in pvmp then see where im coming it somehow affects the overall gameplay.
my call is dont nerf any class ; improve things you see flawed devs.
Balance is important but yet we still cant name or define it in lotro imo.
so nerfing to balance is a silly way.
(you know what happened to creeps when some devs nerfed them with moria due to feedbacks from freeps ( whines) premoria pvmp and creeps dominating.
then all ruined and we didnt have a proper pvmp for at elast 4 months.
pvmp is becoming a large part of the game and will be more soon with rohan.
thus i see it as a strong element when considering and discussing things.
im not very jerked by hunter dps changes ; what bothers me is still we re damned rooted to thre ground and doesnt feel like playing dynamic or utilizing.They should revam Tof and Huntsmen builds not just set bonuses which is fine on huntsmen but 4 or 5 sets needs to be reworked.
imo playing a warden throwing javelins on run is more fun than a hutnmen hunter atm.
and try trapper of foes go 5 set it in pvmp and check your combat log
if you can drop a reavers health to half before it kills you despite your uber CC you did a good job:D

Juss

23-04-2009, 11:59 AM

Aye how stupid can I be. Here I thought that by picking a class described as a dps/nuker I would be...I don't know...best a nuking perhaps? :)

Sorry but it does affect me. It makes a mockery out of my class choice and it makes a mockery of the effort I put into him (imo)

In which way does it devalue your choice of class? Play your own class, stop counting the damage of other classes. In reality it doesn't affect you in any way, your DPS isn't getting lower because someone does more damage.. it is just your own ego that gets hurt, that someone MIGHT be better in small timeframe.
But if two classes are being described as DPS.. what happens then? They both should deliver EXACTLY same amount of damage? Because apparently when something is described as DPS-class, it automatically should dish out most damage.

But anyway, I rest my case, if you think, that destroying anything with couple of shots is challenging, so be it. At least I don't like it.

MéLAnoR

23-04-2009, 12:11 PM

..

But anyway, I rest my case, if you think, that destroying anything with couple of shots is challenging, so be it. At least I don't like it.its not fun and dull imo too ; thus i dont want much dps change but a rework of other non dps sets.

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 12:12 PM

Juss

23-04-2009, 12:16 PM

its not fun and dull imo too ; thus i dont want much dps change but a rework of other non dps sets.

I agree with that totally.. fleet stance could be made more useful and the trapper build could use some rework too.

nightbyday

23-04-2009, 12:20 PM

I think i said it once and i think i will say it again...

Dev took the hunter adjustments one step to far.

Just a step either the ISB or rightious bow (maybe both).

Hunters are not one trick ponies they are just viewed as such, getting the MoM legendaries right so hunters use them would be a start (personally i see no reason to trait any of them).

Juss

23-04-2009, 12:40 PM

I was going to try to reply at this, but it's not worth it. You'll just keep saying "you want 1337 dmg and to two-shot stuff, you want dumb play, go heal your ego" or something.

Your signature fits you nicely.

I don't see any other answer to the constant "I am a DPS class, I need to be doing best DPS evah".

Scatha the Worm

23-04-2009, 12:49 PM

I don't see any other answer to the constant "I am a DPS class, I need to be doing best DPS evah".

Really? So you never saw the huge amount of times several people have said "Hunters are supposed to be the top single target damage dealer in the game." By design? I'm pretty sure that was stated in dev diaries, dev posts, hell, probably the game manual.

Clueless.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 12:51 PM

In which way does it devalue your choice of class? Play your own class, stop counting the damage of other classes. In reality it doesn't affect you in any way, your DPS isn't getting lower because someone does more damage.. it is just your own ego that gets hurt, that someone MIGHT be better in small timeframe.
But if two classes are being described as DPS.. what happens then? They both should deliver EXACTLY same amount of damage? Because apparently when something is described as DPS-class, it automatically should dish out most damage.

Every class is picked relative to another. Unfortunately i'm human, as such i have the intelligence to be aware of things going on beyond the current frame of time and setting. So the reality you speak of is none existent. There's no way anyone could block out that piece of knowlegde. you can only say that because you're looking from the outside, unaffected.

I chose the class for a reason, to be a nuker. It devalues my choice because if it is not the prime nuker as it should be, it's in the end a stupid choiceto have made. It's then better to go and reroll, especially in LOTRO which is filled with solo-content and easy fellowship content (as scatha pointed out, even now dps traited classes make mobs trivial). And guess what: the one difficult instance (DD)= hates inductions.

Two dps classes? Whatever is wrong with the champ and hunter? They are both good at dps, no one is complaining about that, cuz they don't fish in each others water.

But anyway, I rest my case, if you think, that destroying anything with couple of shots is challenging, so be it. At least I don't like it.

To sum up my thoughts in that way isn't right and is quite demeaning. I never said that, but yes *normal* mobs should be trivial for dps classes. That's why there is group content to begin with!: tougher mobs, more challenging content. Wether solo content takes 1 sec or 1 min, it's always dull imo. so that argument just doesn't hold for me. But if you think that taking down a normal mob in 6 shots is challenging, so be it... ;)

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 01:50 PM

I don't see any other answer to the constant "I am a DPS class, I need to be doing best DPS evah".

God forbid a dps class to be the best at dps. I can see the class descriptions on character screen already:

"The hammer-slugger is a pure dps class/nuker. His strength however does not lie in dps. This dps-class overcomes his foes by cunning swings through the air, making sounds that can confuse the enemy or even put them to sleep. As such other non-dps classes can use their large arsenal of dps skills to put out even more damage. The hammer-slugger, a worthy companion in battle."

/sarcasm off :P

MéLAnoR

23-04-2009, 01:51 PM

not a reply to a post but :
Officially :
Hunters are supposed to be the toppest single target dps class which is also mentioned in a dev chat by a developer but i dont think i can find it now.
i think some guy asked what will happen to hunters with runekeeper class being implemented with moria ( premoria dev chat) and the developer clearly acknowledged as hunters will maintain the top single target dps class with moria ( which it was so but now it is a bit non clear accodring to several analysis )
The question is what is single target dps and in which field hunters should be at top?
Sustained dps?
burst dps?
both?
officialy hunter is described as nuker so i dont know.
another fact is being the dps guy ruins this class development.
its why our utilizing skills and sets are being ignored and not carefully designed.
just check loremaster ; the class is brilliant almost can deal with anything almost has a solution to everything that challanges it.
but hunter is so fragile in some points that you always have to hug being the dps guy banner.
and now that banner has got old and dull and even not very shiny we re looking to hug somewhere else possibly forums since our non dps banners are a bid misleading :)

huntsman? fleet? fleet away from mobs? Should this set stance eat our focus in 7 secs?
Trapper? how can a trapper breaks his own trap without control?and how come a dps class can not dps properly the thing he trapped?
is it justified that a dpser class can CC so he should not dps and the penalties should be that high?

ladies and gentlemen its bright clear :
THE HUNTER WAS DESIGNED FLAWED AND MISSING WITH MORIA BUT GIVEN THE HUGE DPS COVERED EVERYTHING ; now the overdps cover is gone you can see the king naked .

Juss

23-04-2009, 02:37 PM

Funny to see how people, when they feel they get a bit upper hand in arguments, they start making personal jokes about others :) Anyway.. wasted enough of time in arguing with kids. Take care.

Sidamos

23-04-2009, 02:38 PM

Hunters are supposed to be the toppest single target dps class which is also mentioned in a dev chat by a developer but i dont think i can find it now.

That's a rather old statement tho. Also most of you see this away too
strict. There could be 3-4 or more top single damage classes. The only
thing is to balance them to eachother correctly so that none stays left
behind.
For example give hunters could get 1-2 more aoe skills. We still would be
behind the champions but we would be a good chunk before RKs.

OMWiener

23-04-2009, 02:47 PM

Funny to see how people, when they feel they get a bit upper hand in arguments, they start making personal jokes about others :) Anyway.. wasted enough of time in arguing with kids. Take care.

good flamebait, but i'm not gonna bite :P All this shows is you're out of arguments. anyway thanks for sharing thoughts with us :)

MéLAnoR

23-04-2009, 03:50 PM

That's a rather old statement tho. Also most of you see this away too
strict. There could be 3-4 or more top single damage classes. The only
thing is to balance them to eachother correctly so that none stays left
behind.
For example give hunters could get 1-2 more aoe skills. We still would be
behind the champions but we would be a good chunk before RKs.yeah that was a pre-moria statement and things have been changed drasticaly imo.
well i wish ealry moria hunter was in this condition so they would make hunter better at book 7 instead its gone backwards.
i thought they would give us another aoe damage skill like roa but instead they made us a more single target class which i dont like.

nightbyday

23-04-2009, 05:00 PM

....'ladies and gentlemen its bright clear :
THE HUNTER WAS DESIGNED FLAWED AND MISSING WITH MORIA BUT GIVEN THE HUGE DPS COVERED EVERYTHING ; now the overdps cover is gone you can see the king naked . '

ROFL

which is about right

quote Mel: 'i thought they would give us another aoe damage skill like roa but instead they made us a more single target class which i dont like. '

i thought the same worse part is they haven't made hunters the 'dominant' single target dps.

I have a throery Hunters will get it back when needed again eg to cover glaring errors in design..

MéLAnoR

23-04-2009, 07:03 PM

Juss

23-04-2009, 08:27 PM

good flamebait, but i'm not gonna bite :P All this shows is you're out of arguments. anyway thanks for sharing thoughts with us :)

Wasn't a flamebait, didn't have you in mind at all with the post :) But was a pleasure to be of service.. you could look smart again;)

Scatha the Worm

24-04-2009, 12:13 AM

If that is a statement of SoA, then it is just as true now as it was then. The main problem is that with all the new things of trait sets and legendaries we thought we could escape the clone army design, but seems it is back to stay.

@Juss
I also fail to see where anyone made a personal joke about you. If anything you've been borderline trolling there at moments. Your many posts just state that you think that DPS classes need not be the best at DPS (BTW, I really don't get that), and that you think all hunters who aren't comfortable with the situation now, want easy-mode or something. Many people, including myself, have taken the time to explain in large the problems we see, yet you have never tried to have a discussion, bute seemed to just be trying to enforce your opinion. Sorry if you've been disproved, but it seems that you ran out of reasonable arguments. You resorted to calling us jealous and things like that, and now calling people in here kids. If you don't want to keep on discussing, fine, but don't throw flame-baits around.

Silmahad

24-04-2009, 08:48 AM

Everybody is talking about more or equal burst dps of other classes and that's about true (with the right spec), but this does not really bother me (as I am no PvM-Fan), but I think that RKs have now equal or even better sustained dps over an equivalent longer time frame, as hunters in precision...and while he is doing that, this godly stone ticks at his feet.

Maybe a hunter will last longer as a RK, who is lightning specced, but where is this fight/encounter where this will play actually a role and where an occasional Celebrant Pot won't do it?

Emli

24-04-2009, 12:36 PM

Maybe a hunter will last longer as a RK, who is lightning specced, but where is this fight/encounter where this will play actually a role and where an occasional Celebrant Pot won't do it?

*points to the waterworks* The watcher is a prime example of where you need all power you can get your hands on and the upcoming turtle requires even better power management. Consider the lightning spec as a hunter's strength stance, both are power hungry and great a lot of aggro while doing around the same damage.

It's kind of funny how everyone is whining about the lightning skills because we have ONE skill that can devastate high, about as high as a heartseeker on burn hot, but the base damage of the RK skill is much lower. No other skill we have can devastate even up to 1.5 k. And all this while the RK's acctually have a group spec (fire) that generates much less aggro, uses up much less power and acctually provides around a 100 DPS increase over a lightning spec RK if the fight is long enough to get the DoT's ticking (Turtle is the dream of every RK). And this spec, the real power of group RK's receives no attention at all because it doesn't have those mega crits. Just weird...

OMWiener

24-04-2009, 12:55 PM

*points to the waterworks* The watcher is a prime example of where you need all power you can get your hands on and the upcoming turtle requires even better power management. Consider the lightning spec as a hunter's strength stance, both are power hungry and great a lot of aggro while doing around the same damage.

It's kind of funny how everyone is whining about the lightning skills because we have ONE skill that can devastate high, about as high as a heartseeker on burn hot, but the base damage of the RK skill is much lower. No other skill we have can devastate even up to 1.5 k. And all this while the RK's acctually have a group spec (fire) that generates much less aggro, uses up much less power and acctually provides around a 100 DPS increase over a lightning spec RK if the fight is long enough to get the DoT's ticking (Turtle is the dream of every RK). And this spec, the real power of group RK's receives no attention at all because it doesn't have those mega crits. Just weird...

First of all, hunters have to go strength/precision stance even in watcher fight for taking of aggro of the tentacles despite them being power hungry.

The reason for the lack of attention to your fire spec is because we have no numbers on it (go scatha and ernham :) ). but speaking for me personally, i do fear your fire spec as well, because our power saving stance "endurance" costs us some damage (compared to Strength and precision build). Going by your explanation, your fire spec doesn't. but time and data will tell :)

Oh and btw, from others, it seems a lot of your skills can crit for 1K. Even my prime dps shot (penetrating shot) doesn't crit for 1K anymore.

Lenin_

24-04-2009, 01:35 PM

And this spec, the real power of group RK's receives no attention at all because it doesn't have those mega crits. Just weird...

Weird? Well I guess you have not been here when 80% of forums were spammed with ridiculous threads how much can hunter crit for. And that was possible only in strength stance, none of that people cared what is our dmg in other stances.

Scappydog

24-04-2009, 02:47 PM

The reason for the lack of attention to your fire spec is because we have no numbers on it (go scatha and ernham :) ). but speaking for me personally, i do fear your fire spec as well, because our power saving stance "endurance" costs us some damage (compared to Strength and precision build). Going by your explanation, your fire spec doesn't. but time and data will tell :)

This is one of my concerns as well. Power useage/Damage/Threat over time will be hard to measure, but Hunter's will be at a disadvantage if we have to use Endurance to lower threat/power use and RK's can still go full out damage without a similiar penalty.

If ( and it appears the Devs want this ) we are to be fairly equal on damage, then our damage/threat in Endurance Stance should be equivalent to an RK. The early data seems to suggest that we need to run in a higher threat/damage/power stance to match RK's.

Emli

24-04-2009, 05:13 PM

First of all, hunters have to go strength/precision stance even in watcher fight for taking of aggro of the tentacles despite them being power hungry.

The reason for the lack of attention to your fire spec is because we have no numbers on it (go scatha and ernham :) ). but speaking for me personally, i do fear your fire spec as well, because our power saving stance "endurance" costs us some damage (compared to Strength and precision build). Going by your explanation, your fire spec doesn't. but time and data will tell :)

Oh and btw, from others, it seems a lot of your skills can crit for 1K. Even my prime dps shot (penetrating shot) doesn't crit for 1K anymore.

The penalty for fire spec is that it's pretty bad at clearing low morale trash mobs like in the radiance instances, on bosses with hundreds of thousands of morale the fire spec is amazing though ( If I were the turtle, I would start stocking up on fire extinguishers! ).

And it's not really our multiple skills critting for 1k, it's our legendary FtoW that has a 10% chance to add 853 damage to one of your attacks and has a 30s cooldown, it isn't logged spearately so it will appear that we do 1k damage with multiple skills. There are also pictures of hunters doing 1k on an auto-attack, that's from the same skill.

The base damage for CA is 217-241, for SS 202-310, EoS 234-293, SW 338-483 and epic conclusion 644-757. Even though it is possible for us to achieve pretty epic critical multipliers, only 2 of those skills, SW and EC are able to crit for 1k+, and in the case of SW, it's only a tad bit over the 1 k mark. I'm not geared for all lightning though, so possible EoS could scratch the 1 k mark aswell.

To achieve the epic mega crits on epic conclusion that everyone seems to be excited about you need to get lucky and get a harsh debate buff (10%chance on FoS skills), withhin the same 20 secs get a thunderous words buff (10%chance on FoS skills) and within the same 20 seconds you have to fire off epic conclusion and have a whopping 3% chance at a devastate, which leads to those massive 5k+ hits. Otherwise it does a 1.5 k hit. After that you also get a +150% power usage debuff for 15s. IMO in PvE it's a useless and over-rated skill, especially in long fights where you have to save power that you will be spending a ton of with your lightning spam anyway. Better to just use fire and do better damage anyway :)

In PvP where power is not so important it's more usefull, although to get the most out of it you need to get both buffs up, which means a ton of lightning spam, by the end of which your opponent (or very likely you) is already dead or near death, so even if you manage a 5 k devastate, it is complete overkill because your opponent probably had 500 morale...

OMWiener

24-04-2009, 06:10 PM

tbh those base damages look pretty high...:P

and you don't need to explain all again. We don't have high numbers either unless we use two skills, no one uses anymore. Merciful shot isn't worth the focus, heartseeker, cd is too long.

MéLAnoR

24-04-2009, 10:39 PM

imo get rid of burn hot and give it to runekeepers..
give them the all wtfpwn critter skills
and make my hunter a solid clas like a captain or lore-master ; balanced and working properly.
a hunter can only reach may be cant even reach a rk with cost of loosing all of his power under 10 secs which is a gameplay style i dont enjoy.damn why did you made the hunter a nuker?
WE HAVE BEEN THE EQUIVALENT OF A MISSING NUKER MAGE IN LOTRO ; NOW RUNEKEEPER HA COME SO WE DONT NEED TO BE CALLED AS A NUKER.
PERIOD.
CHANGE OUR DEFINITON OF CLASS.

A hunter usefull for the last 15 k of a boss?
really ?
is there anyone that enjoy this burn hot and its legendary version cool burn?
i even dont bother to compete book 6 ch 8 for months.

i have given my last comments over rk vs hunter stuff : http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=349787
im completely finw with Rkers being the best damage dealer or nuker in the game.

Marqlar

09-05-2009, 04:30 AM

I think Rks being 2nd on single and aoe seems balanced considering the champion/hunter trade offs as well, remains to be seen if they will achieve that goal:)

If all goes well in terms of dps, champions will shine in aoe, quicly followed by rks, hunters will shine in single target quickly followed by rks.

I'm just browsing through the thread and have to comment on this. Playing both a LM and a RK, I must say that a RK AOE DPS doesn't rival a DPS spec'ed LM. So at least that role is already filled :D

Marqlar

09-05-2009, 04:51 AM

Aallaenu

09-05-2009, 02:33 PM

Ive found that before book 7 my hunter could kill most mobs before they got to her, now they are at half health before they get to me (this is with a very good second age bow, bow master traits, fire oil and bow chants). This means I need to mele as we still get interupted a lot with our bow skills. Mele for a hunter is poor, we have several skills but the additional damage they do is pitiful (this is with a good first age weapon). In addition their cool down timers are not great. I have found that my lore master can mele better than my hunter by quite a bit and seems to survive direct combat with mobs far easier. My husband is currently playing a rune keeper and their skills are pretty awesome. Combine this with the ability to kite mobs in combat then either the lm or the rk can kill stuff that the hunter will die to. Tbh hunters are now no fun to play. Our crits are average and our mele is poor, something most certainly needs to be done to balance out the class. Our ae abilities are almost non existant if we get more than 2 mobs its very hard work. Since the changes my minstrel can deal with multipul mobs far better than my hunter. The hunter changes have been a nerf too far.

Llewrend

09-05-2009, 06:14 PM

I'd be happy if Turbine cut our inductions by half. :)

Until something changes, I'll only take my hunter to Filikul to test DPS against our champions and rune-keepers - which actually have been quite interesting number-wise - and enjoy playing my own chm/mns/cpt/wdn.

Kheld

09-05-2009, 10:03 PM

Yes its something Ive noticed, sometimes you could get the mob to drop dead at your feet, now you have to duke it out.

Ive always had a little fantasy - to be the Hero of a Raid, last man standing, taking the last 5k off a boss... impracticable of course really.

A RK in our kin did it on a Turtle Raid last week, last man alive, kited the Turtle, critted Epic conclusion for 5k & dropped him.

Wheres me chisel...

Divona

11-05-2009, 03:54 PM

agoracy_

12-05-2009, 06:41 AM

Well i agree also and have been saying it quite long time. Hunter is broken no doubt.
What is intresting about this class is that our "taxi" role is pretty solid with all the book updates :)
But have you counted how many porting skills we have in total % of all skills, now compare that to other classes who can have all skills for combat instead.

Hunter class has some serious problems to deal with. But im not that kind of player who will ignore this in long term. If Turbine idea is to push down hunter class players so they are forced to roll other class is not acceptable. Yes i also have many other classes but i started this game as hunter and this was my main goal i wanted to enjoy this game, not being forced to play other classes as my loved one is in pieces.
The choice to try other classes has to come by free choice and fun to try something else.

Indeed, hunter is my beloved class, I play it because of the lore, and after I dinged for 25 I have started loving my class even more... I find fascinating the aura of mystery floating around the elves being experts in bows, their dignity and pride is tremendous... I simply love it... (fantasy freak, but we all have a reason for playing a game, and this is my main reason).

But guess what, I was :eek: when I saw there was no skill to buy from trainer between lvl 42 - 50. What is happening, do we have to use only 3 skills to achieve our goal? I find our taxi role embarrassing (although I have stated some time ago that these are some good skills, and they are, but...) because there will be situations when the leader of a fs will say "DPS? check, we have a RK, heal? check, we have ministrel, mez/stun?, check ,we have LM buffer? check, we have captain, tank? check, we have guardian/warden. What's missing? Aaah.. we need some fast traveling, let's find a hunter now...

I won't discuss about the skill we already have, skills that have been nerfed, because they are not enough to make me feel important, to make me enjoy my game at 100%. It's true, we can change our game-play using different traits/virtues, but ALL of them are DPS related. Considering that any other classes have some secondary role as well, why not finding some nice stuff for hunters, some stuff that won't unbalance the game, some stuff that will bring back that aura of mistery I was discussing about in the beggining?

OK, so they nerfed our DPS, that will be acceptable but ONLY if they give me some other toys to play with, not just 3 button smashing...

I don't want to be the king of DPS, I don't want to be the king of anything, I just want to play this game, I want some versatility so I can change my role according to the situation, some other classes have this ability, why can't hunters be the same?

If turbine wants to make people playing hunter change their class, this is not the best way to do it, and if this is their truly intention, then something is terribly wrong with them... This proves lack of imagination and creativity from the devs.. There are tons of suggestions regarding hunters, I hope they will pick the best and they will change our class so we won't be OPed, but usefull in all situations, just like any other classes are.

just my 2 cents.

Scappydog

12-05-2009, 09:25 AM

But guess what, I was :eek: when I saw there was no skill to buy from trainer between lvl 42 - 50. What is happening, do we have to use only 3 skills to achieve our goal?

There are additional skills available between 51-58, but not that many and with Improved Swift Bow, its debatable if it's an 'improvement' at all since Book 7.

It has always been the biggest problem with the Hunter, the limited number of skills that are useable in a fellowship. We are meant to single target dps from range, but don't have that many skills that actually do that. We have guide skills, cc skills and melee skills, all of which are quite useful when solo, but for group play it's mashing 3-4 buttons most of the time.

European

12-05-2009, 10:18 AM

Indeed, hunter is my beloved class, I play it because of the lore, and after I dinged for 25 I have started loving my class even more... I find fascinating the aura of mystery floating around the elves being experts in bows, their dignity and pride is tremendous... I simply love it... (fantasy freak, but we all have a reason for playing a game, and this is my main reason).

But guess what, I was :eek: when I saw there was no skill to buy from trainer between lvl 42 - 50. What is happening, do we have to use only 3 skills to achieve our goal? I find our taxi role embarrassing (although I have stated some time ago that these are some good skills, and they are, but...) because there will be situations when the leader of a fs will say "DPS? check, we have a RK, heal? check, we have ministrel, mez/stun?, check ,we have LM buffer? check, we have captain, tank? check, we have guardian/warden. What's missing? Aaah.. we need some fast traveling, let's find a hunter now...

I won't discuss about the skill we already have, skills that have been nerfed, because they are not enough to make me feel important, to make me enjoy my game at 100%. It's true, we can change our game-play using different traits/virtues, but ALL of them are DPS related. Considering that any other classes have some secondary role as well, why not finding some nice stuff for hunters, some stuff that won't unbalance the game, some stuff that will bring back that aura of mistery I was discussing about in the beggining?

OK, so they nerfed our DPS, that will be acceptable but ONLY if they give me some other toys to play with, not just 3 button smashing...

I don't want to be the king of DPS, I don't want to be the king of anything, I just want to play this game, I want some versatility so I can change my role according to the situation, some other classes have this ability, why can't hunters be the same?

If turbine wants to make people playing hunter change their class, this is not the best way to do it, and if this is their truly intention, then something is terribly wrong with them... This proves lack of imagination and creativity from the devs.. There are tons of suggestions regarding hunters, I hope they will pick the best and they will change our class so we won't be OPed, but usefull in all situations, just like any other classes are.

just my 2 cents.

In my oppinion we have a lot more to offer than just DPS in fellowships. Even untraited for trapping I always get to use my RoT and my Bards arrow in ANY fellowship I'm in, and in emergencies also the stun. There's always that extra mob that the LM doesn't have time for or capacity for, or a second group of mobs that shows up, or there's simply too many of them. In addition to that, I have been observing dps for a while now after the DPS nerf. Yes the RK's can do some serious damage once in a while, and can do some damage over time, but regarding sustained damage for a long drawn out fight, we still beat them, they simply run out of power much quicker than us. In addition, we are a lot quicker than them to start doing good damage. They have to use several less damaging skills to build up to their big guns, and their big guns have longer cd's/takes more time to build up, than ours.
For example: considering only pure DPS against the watcher or turtle, i'd rather take a hunter.
Don't mistake me for being at all pleased with the nerf, but even though I don't feel particularly powerfull anymore, I still feel usefull, and even more when I have the chance to use my cc skills.

Llewrend

12-05-2009, 10:28 AM

Yes the RK's can do some serious damage once in a while, and can do some damage over time, but regarding sustained damage for a long drawn out fight, we still beat them, they simply run out of power much quicker than usDo you have any numbers to back this up? Just asking because everyone else is saying the opposite and can present the proof. :)

agoracy_

12-05-2009, 10:44 AM

In my oppinion we have a lot more to offer than just DPS in fellowships. Even untraited for trapping I always get to use my RoT and my Bards arrow in ANY fellowship I'm in, and in emergencies also the stun. There's always that extra mob that the LM doesn't have time for or capacity for, or a second group of mobs that shows up, or there's simply too many of them. In addition to that, I have been observing dps for a while now after the DPS nerf. Yes the RK's can do some serious damage once in a while, and can do some damage over time, but regarding sustained damage for a long drawn out fight, we still beat them, they simply run out of power much quicker than us. In addition, we are a lot quicker than them to start doing good damage. They have to use several less damaging skills to build up to their big guns, and their big guns have longer cd's/takes more time to build up, than ours.
For example: considering only pure DPS against the watcher or turtle, i'd rather take a hunter.
Don't mistake me for being at all pleased with the nerf, but even though I don't feel particularly powerfull anymore, I still feel usefull, and even more when I have the chance to use my cc skills.

Mate, you didn't get my point... I am not saying we are totally useless, I was trying to say that we are totally unbalanced and even if you're saying that you feel same important as any member of the fellowship. Yes, we have some CC, but still, LM are the best for that... considering the LM debuffs, pet, or even more simply, try to compare us with any other class and you will see we are quite naked.. 2 CC skills are not enough to give me enough satisfaction. I do not lobby for more CC skills, but I do lobby for some more versatility.

RK's have a damage output comparable with ours, but guess what, they can heal as well. As for the power problems... We all know hunters have the biggest problems regarding this segment...

European

12-05-2009, 10:55 AM

Which part? The sustained damage part, the quicker than them part or?
No matter. I go regularly to the watcher and the turtle, and I can see on my screen how much more trouble rk's have with their power than us. I won't need numbers to prove that the rk's don't do much damage when they have no power. As I indicated, in a medium-short fight, they do more damage than us, but not in the long run. It is simply much easier for us spam max damage longer than them. (If you have the right build, of course)
In the short run, we can usually start our fight with a PS if we want to. the RK's have to use several skills to reach their first big gun, but after that, they're supreme, untill they run out of power.

Nyadach

12-05-2009, 11:55 PM

Been busy playing with that rather nifty Cstats app which allows you to see what skills are doing what, and your average dps in various situations etc...anyhow, been running it on a certain turtle for some interesting, if annoying results.

An LM will during the fight roughtly do about 79k dps including pauses to dish out power and excludes any dps off a pet. A hunter with a burn hot, strength stance from start, fire oils, chants, scrolls etc does 78k in total. Sadly no figures yet on an RK or Champ but would suspect an RK to be well above ours.

But as others have said, the problem is the fact that we are the supposed dps class, without that as has been said before, we have nothing else.

The problem all sits with Turbines utter stupidity at adding the rock tossers and wardens. No one requested them, and before them each profession had a set role. The problem was they added these things, and took the best bits off other professions to make them diluting the other professions. And the problem now is, we have them now and things can't be undone :(

But where does that leave us? it leaves a dps only class who no longer is top of the line in dps, and other than very basic cc capabilities which are useless in boss fights anyhow, who no longer has a role in a group and whom are being shunned by groups due to this.

I won't say the solution is to go on a mass nerfing spree of all those who's damage is higher than ours. Or that ours should be increased massively since that will destroy the rebalanced mobs now. Personally I'm not a fan of the improved cc capabilities since really, those are something for the LM rather than us. Really the hunter needs to be reinvented. Turbine can't go back on the utter disasters they've made in adding things they shouldn't of done. But they can get off their collective backsides and do something about fixing the mess they created.

Llewrend

13-05-2009, 09:08 AM

An LM will during the fight roughtly do about 79k dps including pauses to dish out power and excludes any dps off a pet. A hunter with a burn hot, strength stance from start, fire oils, chants, scrolls etc does 78k in total. Sadly no figures yet on an RK or Champ but would suspect an RK to be well above ours.I'll add my results here just for the hell of it:

Champion (mine) 414.8 DPS total 131.5k damage. Continuous Blood Rage and captain Shield-brother.
Hunter (mine) 344.3 DPS total 99.5k damage. Precision stance.
Rune-keeper (friend) 379.6 DPS total 109.7k damage. 5 Fury of Storm and 2 fire traits, I think.

Latter two were the same run. All had loremaster Sticky tar/warding/AC and bear, 2 captains with Oathbreakers/Telling Mark and burglar with Reveal weakness.

STR stance will drain your power way too fast. Precision stance with 928 ICPR and some power pots helped me last but just barely. I can however do better now that I've tried it once with hunter. I'll slot Intent Concentration power heal trait (full Great Bow set so 1.5min cd) and Improved Press Onwards to use after mid-fight Burn Hot. That should bring me atleast on par with our RK but it won't change the fact that I have to spend more power to do same amount of damage. :)

MéLAnoR

13-05-2009, 10:28 AM

I'll add my results here just for the hell of it:

Champion (mine) 414.8 DPS total 131.5k damage. Continuous Blood Rage and captain Shield-brother.
Hunter (mine) 344.3 DPS total 99.5k damage. Precision stance.
Rune-keeper (friend) 379.6 DPS total 109.7k damage. 5 Fury of Storm and 2 fire traits, I think.

Latter two were the same run. All had loremaster Sticky tar/warding/AC and bear, 2 captains with Oathbreakers/Telling Mark and burglar with Reveal weakness.

STR stance will drain your power way too fast. Precision stance with 928 ICPR and some power pots helped me last but just barely. I can however do better now that I've tried it once with hunter. I'll slot Intent Concentration power heal trait (full Great Bow set so 1.5min cd) and Improved Press Onwards to use after mid-fight Burn Hot. That should bring me atleast on par with our RK but it won't change the fact that I have to spend more power to do same amount of damage. :)lol people still will be comparing classes for solo csstats concerning steady dps ; even if they read this.Dump people what can i say.
Thanks Llew to back it up with numbers.
its sad to watch how a no1 dps class become a trash in the end.Well i hope at least they give us some other utilities so we finally be able to play something more interesting other than a pure supportive dps class.

European

13-05-2009, 11:23 AM

Mate, you didn't get my point... I am not saying we are totally useless, I was trying to say that we are totally unbalanced and even if you're saying that you feel same important as any member of the fellowship. Yes, we have some CC, but still, LM are the best for that... considering the LM debuffs, pet, or even more simply, try to compare us with any other class and you will see we are quite naked.. 2 CC skills are not enough to give me enough satisfaction. I do not lobby for more CC skills, but I do lobby for some more versatility.

RK's have a damage output comparable with ours, but guess what, they can heal as well. As for the power problems... We all know hunters have the biggest problems regarding this segment...

Ok. I can understand your frustration, though I personally don't agree with a few of the things you say. I am not sure why you think we are unbalanced. Were we ever more balanced than now? When we had more DPS? Or is it just a general dissatisfaction with the hunter class as a whole, and that you feel we always have been unbalanced?
There's a few things that I personally think elevates us up to at least equal standard with the other classes:
For one, the DPS. Yes the RK's CAN do as much, and even more DPS than us, but they won't! Why? Because they take much more damage than us with their light armor, and, ironically enough, because they actually can do something about it, and will spend a considerable percentage of their time healing themselves or the other members of the group. (We would also do a lot less dps if we HAD some healing skills, since we'd undoubtedly use them).
More versatility? Sure. I wish for that too. But I have no guess as to how that would be done. Atm I feel more or less exactly as usefull as a hunter as I did before Moria, except that we now have two more cc skills to use. (Including bards arrow, now that we can slot three legendary traits).
You mention what the other classes have as advantages. Take a look at their disadvantages too, and compare them to us. I'd say that the medium armor makes up for a lot. The way I trait my virtues I have as much armor as most champions not using shield (about 4150). We can take a few punches.

The power issue. If a hunter is traited right, uses his skills, traits and stances right, and has at least some decent equipment, he has no power problems. I have yet to see (I haven't played a high level one myself) a RK who does not run out of power in a few minutes, if it's a hard fight. I won't say they don't exist, but I haven't met any.

Do I wish improvement? yes, definately. After Moria and before book 7 I felt GOOD playing a hunter. Now I feel average, but not worse than average.

Emli

13-05-2009, 11:44 AM

I'll add my results here just for the hell of it:

Champion (mine) 414.8 DPS total 131.5k damage. Continuous Blood Rage and captain Shield-brother.
Hunter (mine) 344.3 DPS total 99.5k damage. Precision stance.
Rune-keeper (friend) 379.6 DPS total 109.7k damage. 5 Fury of Storm and 2 fire traits, I think.

Latter two were the same run. All had loremaster Sticky tar/warding/AC and bear, 2 captains with Oathbreakers/Telling Mark and burglar with Reveal weakness.

STR stance will drain your power way too fast. Precision stance with 928 ICPR and some power pots helped me last but just barely. I can however do better now that I've tried it once with hunter. I'll slot Intent Concentration power heal trait (full Great Bow set so 1.5min cd) and Improved Press Onwards to use after mid-fight Burn Hot. That should bring me atleast on par with our RK but it won't change the fact that I have to spend more power to do same amount of damage. :)

A proper Rune-keeper will be doing more damage than just 379.6 though, a Rune-keeper that runs the lightning line is vastly less effective than the one running a fire line. Turtle is the perfect mob for a DPS fire RK. Not only will it use less power, generate less threat because of the legendary distracting flame, it will also do more damage. The DoT's can't crit as high but the stream of damage will be much faster and the DoT's acctually tick for higher than the lightning base damage. Heck, just spamming the traited fiery ridicule will probably outdps a lightning RK, add to that the DoT's...

MéLAnoR

13-05-2009, 01:17 PM

There's a few things that I personally think elevates us up to at least equal standard with the other classes:
For one, the DPS. Yes the RK's CAN do as much, and even more DPS than us, but they won't! Why? Because they take much more damage than us with their light armor, and, ironically enough, because they actually can do something about it, and will spend a considerable percentage of their time healing themselves or the other members of the group. (We would also do a lot less dps if we HAD some healing skills, since we'd undoubtedly use them).
lol do you ever read what you write? We're not talking about solo abilities here.in lotro you can only compare classes for their group role.Who gives a frak about one class's solo ability.The runekeepers are traited either heal or dps and if they dps they dont ever use their heal skills in combat cause wait for it ! they're in that group for dps not heal.So they dont lose anything they dont stop to heal themselves there are healers in the group for that.If you look over Llew's group dps test you see that runekeepers are doing better than a hunter.Since an appropritate dpser is supposed to only dps and grab agro then there is no need to heal him/her apart from aoe damage or other factors like dots.

The power issue. If a hunter is traited right, uses his skills, traits and stances right, and has at least some decent equipment, he has no power problems. I have yet to see (I haven't played a high level one myself) a RK who does not run out of power in a few minutes, if it's a hard fight. I won't say they don't exist, but I haven't met any.
If a hunter is traited right he doesnt suffer a lot of power problems but do you know what should a hunter sacrifice for those traits? DPS ! AND LOTS OF DPS !
Again just check Llews analysis.A hunter who is traited for ongoing dps for a long boss fight yet suffer power issues even use every pot available is coming behind a runekeeper.He can add there the trait intent concentration as deep Conc trait but since its a trapper set it ll reduce the dps level even more.
So a runekeeper class who doesnt a lot of power issues and can dps in long boss fights better than a hunter ; also rk has a better threat level management without such dps reducer traits hunter have.Rk has versatily like being a main healer with traits and also a different way of dps through elemental skills.DoTS or insane critting lightning damage.Also much effective snares.

Please dont think overall i dont agree with your opinions ; i just want to underline some wrong assumptions there. :)
Devs should decide whether make hunter the number one single target dpser or give it other ways to play and moer versatile utilities and a content according to that.

note : about rk comparision i want to acknowledge that Llew has ones of the best hunter ranged weapon maybe the best in our server.So put a 3rd age bow used in that analysis your eyes would pop out :cool:Overall i agree with you but some points i want to discuss : read the bold lines please.

Scappydog

13-05-2009, 09:36 PM

Please look at this thread for a possible answer:

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353798

MéLAnoR

13-05-2009, 10:26 PM

Please look at this thread for a possible answer:

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353798looks promising :)

Lenin_

14-05-2009, 12:17 AM

Finally I remembered to start parsing before the fight starts :P but well I can not speak for other guys in the raid, but with mine hunter I did 90,068 dmg. Unfortunately I died when turtle was on like 30-25k morale.

traits : 1 BM (deadly precision) 2 ToF (Deep concentration, Graceful Draw) and 4 HM (Swift recovery, Strong Draw,Arrow storm and Enduring precision)

Heh I just noticed that I should switch enduring precision for Fast draw, probably my dps will be higher. I was all the time in endurance stance, only switching books, in the start reducing threat later in the fight reducing power cost. Also used fire oil. I made some mistakes, like not using burn hot :P. It was a half pug half kin alts run so there was alot of stress going on hehe. I think if I change the trait and use hotburn, I should do over 100k total dmg.
http://i39.tinypic.com/2ykdu0m.jpg
And my dps was 262~ and the fight was long 5min 9sec.

Nyadach

14-05-2009, 08:02 AM

Been doing a few more runs last night, and with a bit of tweaking have got it over 122k through the fight. Feel it can do higher, and well no doubt will with further tuning from the info off cstats.

Anyhow, back to the above posts off those dev's, I soooo don't want to snap on those but am so tempted to. I truely can't believe the utter, I was going to say naivety but am actually going to say nubiness of it.

They fecked up hugely, yet the solution seems to be is to make us...actually from that description it's pretty much nothing. No nuking, piddly poor cc, no healing, and a taxi service if they haven't decided to get a warden along...seems like it's time for a manual rewrite Turbine, the bit were it says "Hunter, the dedicated nuker class" to "Hunter, the luggage handler with a little transport skills", and while they are at it redo the intro movie for the class types since that clearly states we're the damage dealer, not the left overs.

*sigh, ok rant off again*

OMWiener

14-05-2009, 08:41 AM

Nyadach

14-05-2009, 08:23 PM

OMWiener

15-05-2009, 07:12 AM

Lenin_

15-05-2009, 12:31 PM

i did 89K (for 297 dps) with a lvl59 second age x-bow. Same things= fire oil, breach finder, no captain though, precision (for lots of focus, since i slot enduring precision), no burn hot though. I was eating power the entire fight and was barely hanging on...

That's exactly how I feel the fight. I have tried precision, but the power consumption was too big for my taste. Many times we don't have more then 1 loremaster, so he is power battery for 2 minstrels and can't afford to share power with hunters. That's why I stick to traited endurance stance. Anyway, after tweaking my traits (also slotted press onward) I did 99k damage, and I think that is the maximum I can pull with my traits/gear and without any help from loremaster. Differences depends only on buffs/debuffs of other classes in raid.

nightbyday

16-05-2009, 12:06 AM

Basically dropped all use of bleeds and mercifuls (time to fire v damage landing and focus used makes them worthless in the stats), and only used three skills. Penetratings, Quick Shots, and Swift Bows...nothing else other than a Heart seeker when oathbreakers was used. Fire oil from the beginning also (light oil have tried but no where near as much damage landing). Chaining needful haste also when its up also helps...but guess thats pretty normal.

Been sitting in endurance oddly for first half of the fight, before switching to precision until 100k left then strength and burn hot. Still in a 5 slot bow master set up. Next few setups will be testing it with precision from the start if the tanks are feeling they can keep aggro.

In a 4m 30sec fight, landing around 120-130k damage now with not a very decent bow (still on a 3rd age) but am built around crits with a base unbuffed 4160 ranged crit in the turtle setup, yet icpr had been sacrificed a little at about 820 why in the earlier fights were very heavily endurance based.

Yes i have been doing that in turtle fights too (2nd age x bow crit induct crit focus range evade and block evade), i should run parse. I do feel my dps is sustainable but only just i have to watch the old power, it is still very easy to play aggro ping pong or steal aggro totally so i would say the crits and solid dps is there (however if the some loon of a RK there they don't live long.... MY AGGRO #SPLAT~)

Interestingly i have just started playing my hunter again, fight the orc camps in lothlorein for rep .... OMG what a shock. i can handle two fine but three.... as long as all my cooldowns are up there is no issues but if some thing is down .... very interesting fights. (i still feel safer than my dps mini... who does awsome burst dps but can be dry after the 2nd mob)

All i can say is if they gave us back the third shot on ISB and reinstated righteous bow to it's former glory i would be a lot more comfortable, until then i am messing about with traits ... i can't see my self going for any legendary 5.... we will see.

Scatha the Worm

16-05-2009, 04:48 AM

Well, the turtle groups I've been running in are very power aware, having 2 captains with traited victory banner and loremaster's eagle. That makes Precision sustainable if using all available consumables.

My current strat is Precision up to 200k mark, when Oathbreakers are fired along with Burn Hot + Strength for the rest of the fight. Up to 450k I'm with -threat book, then switch to power book, although I don't think I should need that if champs are transferring aggro to the guardian correctly (but I've pulled plenty times).

Also, being shield brother (To Arms being fired every time off cd) and correctly timing skills with Oathbreakers and Burn Hot will make a really large difference. A HUGE amount of fine tuning has to go into truly be best at DPS in that setting, along with a lot of effort and thought.

I still have to get to parse data, but my build is pretty much similar to some mentioned here: Arrow Storm, Strong Draw, Enduring Precision, Swift Recovery and Critical Eye, Deadly Precision, Swift and True
My 3rd age bow is not that impressive, but it does the job well enough.
I also slot Press Onwards to recover after BH, and of course: Bow of the Righteous.
ICPR around 920 unbuffed there, but as said before: IDOME+Tale of Heroism+Improved Victory Banner(+Eagle usually) provide a boost to ICPR good enough to sustain almost full power bar with pots. Of course eating critical Regen Food adds a lot to actual regen throughout the entire fight.

Fire RKs are still a better option because the baseline DPS they can deliver is more realiable, probably higher, and in no way adds power strains to the group. Even tho a hunter can theorically do much better, the tools to do so are not in the skill set but in milimetric tweaks in gameplay that can result badly if even slightly miscalculated. I'm pretty sure average joe hunter alt isn't doing better than average joe rk alt or average joe champ alt.

Emli

17-05-2009, 02:39 PM

Fire RKs are still a better option because the baseline DPS they can deliver is more realiable, probably higher, and in no way adds power strains to the group. Even tho a hunter can theorically do much better, the tools to do so are not in the skill set but in milimetric tweaks in gameplay that can result badly if even slightly miscalculated. I'm pretty sure average joe hunter alt isn't doing better than average joe rk alt or average joe champ alt.

They definately are, but that's because this fight is pretty much designed as the best case scenario for a fire RK, all that morale to burn down, no adds and the turtle doesn't wipe off the DoT's at certain morale points ( like the bosses in radiance instances ). In my opinion the devs have got it just right, they are both great at DPS but in a different way, hunters are more usefull in long instances full of trash and bosses that have adds that need to be taken down while RK's are the better option for the tank and spank bosses like the turtle.

OMWiener

18-05-2009, 06:39 AM

They definately are, but that's because this fight is pretty much designed as the best case scenario for a fire RK, all that morale to burn down, no adds and the turtle doesn't wipe off the DoT's at certain morale points ( like the bosses in radiance instances ). In my opinion the devs have got it just right, they are both great at DPS but in a different way, hunters are more usefull in long instances full of trash and bosses that have adds that need to be taken down while RK's are the better option for the tank and spank bosses like the turtle.

A champ is way better at trash and bosses with adds. A hunter taking adds will drop his dps tremendously because of induction. It's this induction mechanism specifically which should make the hunter best at tank and spank...Trash is already halfway morale before i finish my swift bow induction...Hunter should be at his best at the turtle as well. No induction setbacks, full on dps without too much worry... So i really don't get your point? It's an ideal boss for the hunter, yet we linger behind the champ and the RK. Imagine a boss where our inductions are reset....i dread to think about the numbers then. For example a hunter tanking the big tentacles in the watcher fight...

If the RK is gonna be this good (better then hunter), then they might as well strip his healing abilities, cuz tbh (as per dev) a hunter should still be top of ST dps. And it seems to me, no one rolls an RK for healing anyway :P

Emli

18-05-2009, 06:39 PM

A champ is way better at trash and bosses with adds. A hunter taking adds will drop his dps tremendously because of induction. It's this induction mechanism specifically which should make the hunter best at tank and spank...Trash is already halfway morale before i finish my swift bow induction...Hunter should be at his best at the turtle as well. No induction setbacks, full on dps without too much worry... So i really don't get your point? It's an ideal boss for the hunter, yet we linger behind the champ and the RK. Imagine a boss where our inductions are reset....i dread to think about the numbers then. For example a hunter tanking the big tentacles in the watcher fight...

If the RK is gonna be this good (better then hunter), then they might as well strip his healing abilities, cuz tbh (as per dev) a hunter should still be top of ST dps. And it seems to me, no one rolls an RK for healing anyway :P

Yeah, stripping the RK healing abilitys will surely get you to become the top ST dps... Where the hell is the logic in that?

Also, the hunter, despite the inductions will still get his damage going much faster than a RK, once the induction of the swiftbow lands you do some good damage, while a RK will just get his first 140 DoT ticking. I have to agree though, champs are probably better at it. Wait a second, they can do awesome ST dps (often even surpassing fire RK's on the turtle), do the best AOE damage by far and also tank! ZOMG, maybe we should cry for a nerf bat for them aswell!!!

Or... try to use our brains to see that other classes aren't overpowered, they are where they need to be and just the hunter need a little buff.

Scatha the Worm

18-05-2009, 10:34 PM

Or... try to use our brains to see that other classes aren't overpowered, they are where they need to be and just the hunter need a little buff.

We need more than a little buff, and tbh, rks need a nerf to their crit multipliers. The point is that just as the turtle is ideal for a RK to deal sustained damage, it is just as ideal for a hunter to unload, yet we come below RKs and champs... Imagine Dark Delvings where you have +50% induction duration.

OMWiener

19-05-2009, 06:33 AM

Yeah, stripping the RK healing abilitys will surely get you to become the top ST dps... Where the hell is the logic in that?

L2read. When combining healing abilities and nuking abilities (yes not at the same time *rolls eyes*), you should not be better as the hunter. At the moment you are, so there's three possibilities:

- buff hunter
- nerf RK damage (you don't want that)
- or remove his healing abilities, then he'll be just like the hunter ;)

Did you follow that or should i lower my level a bit more for you to understand? (see i can be demeaning and childish as well)

Anyway there was an emoticon at the end for a reason (was meant as a joke).

Or... try to use our brains to see that other classes aren't overpowered, they are where they need to be and just the hunter need a little buff.

Lmao, yeah the hunters were saying the exact same thing in B7 ;)

As scatha says, the hunter would need a serious buff. A lot of people don't realise this, but the hunter is a crit class. We have the highest base-crit rating of all classes. Problem is that when you nerf base numbers on weapons and skills, crits get hit double in absolute numbers. So our dps took a very big hit.

Second fault turbine made is that tactical classes are not dependent on weapon dps. Sure you need to be lucky with legacies (who hasn't deconstructed 600 third ages). But weapon based classes need to be lucky with their legacies on a first age! So turbine's fault is to make the difference in dps between a first and thrid age too big. A hunter can only really keep up with a first age.

And no i won't ask for a champ to get nerfed nor an RK, but us to get buffed. You see, the healing part was a cheek in tongue (i'll repeat it again)

anyway:Been there, done that on the hunter, mate. Hopefully you won't experience what we experienced through the two years the game has been out, cuz ranged dps classes tend to go through that ;)

OMWiener

19-05-2009, 06:40 AM

We need more than a little buff, and tbh, rks need a nerf to their crit multipliers. The point is that just as the turtle is ideal for a RK to deal sustained damage, it is just as ideal for a hunter to unload, yet we come below RKs and champs... Imagine Dark Delvings where you have +50% induction duration.

ye he totally missed my point...and could only focus on the part that was meant as a joke...

MéLAnoR

16-09-2009, 05:38 AM

it has been a while im away from the game ( i havent been able to see much first age parses) and now reading us forums and here its sad to see there has not been much change about group dps issues of hunter class.And check this out !

Wow is this WAI ? Should we all roll non - dps classes since they do more dps in groups and plus bring much more utility to the table?

Thanks to NAT from US servers for parsing turtle with his alternative character and main.
For the record he is a very experienced hunter as far as i see from boards and parsed turtle runs with his both end-game hunter char with maxed first age bow and his alt guardian with first age weapon.

http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=4020165&postcount=68
It's my regular Watcher + Turtle night so I have another data point. I took the Guardian tonight since I have a nice shiny new 1st Age 2H Hammer and I wanted to see if I could improve on 681 DPS. Same group makeup as normal: 3 Burglars, 2 Captains, 2 Minstrels, 1 Hunter, 1 LM, 2 Champs (had the 2 Shield Brothers), and 'lil old me. The result?

*drumroll*
parse here : http://forums.lotro.com/externalredirect.php?url=http://img15.imageshack.us/i/threedpsaway.jpg/
http://forums.lotro.com/externalredirect.php?url=http://img15.imageshack.us/i/threedpsaway.jpg/

So close! I need to work on my skill rotation a bit more. We have determined that I am officially not allowed to have a Shield Brother though or I'd be fighting the Champ for aggro and spinning the Turtle out of position...I'm not sure how much more I want to push it..

DiscussHe also parsed his guardian with a 2nd age weapon and tossed out over 550 dps.However his latest best record with hunter with first age bow is around 500-550
Wow im speechless :eek: