The Major Reasons behind Book 7 changes

[MéLAnoR]

Ok ; there are many reasons behind these changes but the major reason is that turbine created moria expansion on a way that mob stats has seen dractical buffes lvl 50-60 and the content design is put on some kind of dps race ( especially the instance designs)
the instances were not carefull examined and exploits hit the forums very hard ( i dont remember a major exploit of rift raid but moria was awful regarding exploits)
Exploited content favoured dps so much that many classes couldnt fullfill their role and also some classes are not buffed properly like guardians suffered threat issues.
The gameplay depends on people so a hunter can reduce his threat/dps ratio but the content design made people grind everything and community fell apart not only with style of play but also several class players in pve and pvmp complained about each other.
Another major reason of the changes is pvmp.
turbine ridicilously nerfed creep classes whislt buffin pve department that dps ruled moors and being the single target nuker class hunters and Bas ruined close combat in pvmp.
Hunter nuking ability has seen even higher numbers due to rare but fatal numbers of devastating crits which made creep players whined overwhelmingly about hunter class.
Well about moria first of all i want to thank to great story and world art design and as well as to our dev dangerdan for listening into our complaints over a year.
We did get a very nice update and seen a versatile options of gameplay.
the problem was the content was so dps demanding that bowsman set gone of the roof and almost noone used huntsmen legendaries or trapper of foes set.This also made hunters becoming artilleries of ettenmoors.
What should have been is being maed atm by several changes to dps and regarding skills.
but changing stuff after some perod of gameplay really ruins our experience cause we feel like dumped downhill ( just check how creeps felt when they see the nerf bat with the expansion - thoguh some classes are quite ok due to their dps ability)
Imho hunter should never has been a nuker but more hybrid class with good cc and nature control ability and some archery abilities with average melee.
Huntsmen is a great chance to do that but giving out a huge nuker setup made everyone become dps junkies and even hindered many hunter players to understand the full potential and abilities of the class.
now we're being forced to cope with changes once again ' sure we will adapt but there is the morality part of it.
Hunter players are so hated by others and moaned about that you can see a rant thread almost every single day about us.
is it cause we're bad persons? we dont play other classes?
nope.
the content and class design makes the class so much popular that even %10 of the class population can ruin its community by their acts and failures.
I ask ; we hunters did want so much dps ability?
did we ask for Heartseeker skill?
I tell you when the HS implemented % 90 of hunter players hated it.
we always wanted to see a dynamic and group friendly class.Sure its a great solo grinder but turbine made lotro become a more solo based game and its going that way even faste especially making dps classes even more popular ( champ / hunter / runekeeper)
Its turbine's fault that they couldnt balance the population ratio of classes.
Their basic view is to balance numbers by buffs and nerfs thus when hunter hit over %40 numbers after 2 months of launch has been nerfed to hell 3 times in a row.
turbine always have chosen easy way to balance classes ; not by content design or buffs to others ; aye nerfs after nerfs.
I cant blame devs ; they re professionals and they should have proper reasons ;they check the game data everyday and its their job to keep the game going.I cant say any of the classes is not fun.And ever will lost popularity.
numbers of subs might change for sure but we'll not be torn apart.
I want to talk about something a fact that devs always underline :
PVE will not be affected majorly by changes due to pvmp and we ll focus to change pvmp classes and content to balance ; which they did but also changes affected pve and overall pve class abilities ( sometimes i wish freeps were also like creeps as session characters)
This become a fact by every book update and hunters are familiar to it.
I dont mind the changes cause we did need them to balance pve and pvmp but at least admit it and dont make us players ; the customers feel like idiot.
Say that pve might be affected by pvmp changes cause WE DO CARE ABOUT PVMP ; WE DO CARE ABOUT PVMP PLAYERS ; CAUSE THEY ARE ALSO OUR CUSTOMERS.
Well well you ll never see it i assume sadly ; excuses excuses..
One dev explained briefly to a overwhelmed poor hunter rant/whiner as :
Today, 01:00 PM
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Spa Maven
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 549

some ridicilous Us thread >>>
Re: Hunters nerfed because of crybaby creeps? SHUTDOWN THE MOORS NOW
Hunters were not targeted for a nerf, there was an overall rebalancing of combat. It also had nothing to do with PvMP.I seriously dont beleive it ; we have foreseen the changes but didnt want to see it cause we did feel good in pve after months of broken gameplay ( pvmp is another story ; hunter is good premoria and has been very very powerfull with moria)
The drama you see in forums regarding hunter is a bit anxiousness cause we dont have the chance to test it yet.
I actually dont want to play a broken class for months again ; actually i have been waiting for some changes to hunter sets and utilities apart from dps.But with book 7 we only see negativity so far.Thus players are anxious to experience the same story between V1 b9-12.
to keep it short I for myself belevive the negativity with book7 comes due to reasons by moria content design ; pvmp ; population of class.
you can check the poll and discuss you view and maybe other reasons behind it.
No need to drama ; im sure the class will continue to be fun and fullfill its role and maybe comes out good changes to other aspects of the class ; as i misses too long.
/Mel the pointedear hunter troll :P

p.s : My vote goes to content design demanding too much dps.thus the class designed in that way .But i beleive second most essential factor was pvmp.

[Imbavince]

went for pvp reasons...although I was torn to that destiny thing as well...seriously

[MéLAnoR]

went for pvp reasons...although I was torn to that destiny thing as well...seriously
I just added it to have a laugh ; the above 3 choices are the ones we should think about to reach a conclusion.:)

Btw here is a good post (on us forums) which i quite agree over changes :
Originally Posted by kerryak View Post
Actually, it IS intended by the raid design. they made a raid where healing is inconsequential b/c you can re-enter the fight in 3 seconds from death, and combine it w/ the best ring for hunters, and then drop a bunch of **** in the chest w/ that ring so you have to do it 50+ times, THEN combine it w/ bosses that are best kited apart using slow (hi QS in S;S), that players will put two and two together.

You could double their morale and I'd still want 4 hunters on those *******s. Keep 'em slowed and don't let them catch you... if you screw up, no worries, you're back in there in 3 sec anywhos.

Same w/ the watcher. Hunter DPS isn't why Hunters are awesome there, it's b/c letting the tentacles bash on melees on the swim team while your healers get dangled by a strangling tentacle is mega-dumb. Hence watcher tank and new tentacle tank are Hunters - period.

If turbine wants balanced fellowships in balanced instances/raids, they should, I dunno, design the raid so that all classes are useful. That'd be trendy.

[nightbyday]

I wanted the option of 'All of the above' ;p

I went for content design because ettenmoors was redesigned with moria thus part of the content and there were flaws there too.

My summary would be PvMP actually motivated the drastic changes, with content design and need to balance and or produce multi skilled classes with a secondary and primary role (blurring of class definition and or role) given as an excuse for such drastic changes. With out the complaints of PvMP i fully believe the 'nerf' would not have been so bad.

I also believe the changes that are coming will 'break' the class, this is to say hunter will have no primary or defined secondary roll. It should be primary DPs on single targets, secondary on CC and a third roll of AoE, after book 7 hunters will bearly scrape the primary roll of single target dps and if they opt any thing for other than bow master (with cool burn or hybrid with 1 or 2 traits from ToF or Huntesman) they will fail in this roll (of course i could be totally wrong but post patch will either prove or disprove this theory). Hunter can have a secondary roll as CC but traiting to get the best of this roll ruins dps even further, plus very few recognise hunters CC potential including hunters themselves. AoE is a third roll that is lagging behind other classes beaten by Champ, LM, RK, and Mns in war hands.

I was looking at a 3/2/2 or 3/3/1 hybrid of trapper/huntsman/bowmaster which could be workable with some adjustment to the traits, it would give hunters a defined secondary roll as a CC merchant with some decent close quarter, ranged and AoE (a glorifed champ wanna be if you like) with no healing potential, Both 5/2 sets in either trapper or huntsman could be worth while but there are penalties in traiting as such both to the point of a huntsman or trapper roll in the form of sever dps reduction and all huge penalties on cool downs.

I would like to say if Dev had thought it through and removed such penalties from the trapper/huntsman lines they could have implemented the forth coming changes and hunter would have celebrated the chance to deversify. As it is traiting to huntsman or trappers currently still is not a viable option instead traiting full on the bow master range for 5/1/1 picking up intent concentration cool down reduction and the one that adds power on use.

Inaddition would it not be nice to have a bow or legacy or runic option of moral/power drain? maybe a trait could be addapted to include this or a trait set (huntsman)?

When book 7 hits i will be trying a 3/2/2 hybrid setup (after noting what dps over all has dropped too) and also the 5/1/1.

I have had my whine/moan/complain as is my right, with that off my chest so to speak it is now time to look forward and plan forward.

[Sidamos]

Seriously Mel - not finished whining yet with only knowing the numbers on the paper?

[Kuittaa]

Wall of text hits you with 21,512 points of hunter-nerf damage.

Flaws of content design.

[Silmahad]

It's clearly a PvM thing and some additional whines of other classes not being able to solo the steel archive as fast as a hunter. Pleasing the customerbase, by picking out a bad guy.

IF it were only the content design, I may ask, why did they develope it and haven't they tested it? and how dumb is it to test it not?

[nightbyday]

Seriously Mel - not finished whining yet with only knowing the numbers on the paper?

HEY!!!

Melanor is the 'VICKS tm' Of the hunter community... it gets all that nasty stuff off or chests and makes us feel better.

I do think it will end 50/50 between PvMP and flawed desgin/class balancing (added together)

More wine anyone? red please like blood... Devs

[OMWiener]

Seriously Mel - not finished whining yet with only knowing the numbers on the paper?

Seriously, do you have anything worth while to contribute? - Oh right, you played for two hours on the test-server. You're really an expert now...

I've had my whine as well and am over it. Like Mel said, would have liked some other things fixed though in addition to the current changes.

Anyway= bad design of content. You don't want 5 hunters trivialising content? Make other classes needed as well...Simple

[Alya]

tl; dr

Voted for the PvE class balance (speaking as a guardian, incurable altist and obsessed quest completer).

[Divona]

What concerns me most that it took 4 months to figure out that combat was off in Moria.

So we had broken classes, mostly Hunters are totally broken, as they "fix" most of the skills we have atm. Seems to me that they need new or better beta (non live server) testing players.
I voted: Flaws of Content design of Mines of Moria.

Its hard truth but not only legendary system itself has flaws, now combat and serious bugs in instances so on. Not going to even mention crafting...

[MéLAnoR]

Seriously Mel - not finished whining yet with only knowing the numbers on the paper?imo your just trolling here ; oh look hey im the adapter guy ; gimme smash i adapt all of them.
the thread is nothing to do with whines ;rabnt etc and to your statement its cleare that you even didnt bother to read it.
have a nice day

[Saurfenion]

I choose other ohw wait the option is not there ;)..

I think the biggest reason people whined about hunters is because......






*drum roll*






*some more waiting*








*getting there*





People are getting uberly annoyed by all the hunter farming everything that spawns around Lorethien at an incredible high speed, but even more annoying from extreme range compared to each and every other class out there, so people cant compeet for mobs (either for grinding or actually doing the intended quests of that area).

As soon as people are getting annoyed they want justice (or revenge, grief or food :P). Result they start crying, whining and force that devs come up with a solution, which ofcourse start in the wrong area to fix things, because alot of players go "OMG huntards are uber, they kill so quick.. NERF THEM".. I personally think though it more that people are annoyed with the ranged of hunter and how easily they can pull, root and tag everything..

DPS nerf fair? I cant tell, my gf just dinged 60 a couple of nights ago on her hunter and she was enjoying the class.. Sure it hits hard and fast, .. The fixes for hunters that are really under the hunter part of the notes really dont seem that extremely hard (sure they hurt abit).. Thing I wonder is, that if you add up:
* Hunter specific nerfs
* Global change to weapon dps nerf
* The new items scrolls and things (seem none of them is focussed on bow)

What will happen to a hunter?? Sure i dont play a hunter (but i prefer my gfs keeps enjoying the game too).. I know turbine from other games.. And often all the fixes/balancing ideas on there own are good.. But they seem to lack testing everything together which often result is spikes in each and every direction (nerf, buff, etc, etc)..

I hope for you guys that they wont nerf you to the ground.. But this is IMHO the oppinion of a non-hunter..

[MéLAnoR]

tl; dr

Voted for the PvE class balance (speaking as a guardian, incurable altist and obsessed quest completer).
yeah i can feel how guardians are left alone especially the watcher raid.
i have a very good friend our raid leader he way away due to movig to uk so couldnt played enough for instances.
actually im glad for him now.guardians cant play their main role atm in the main raid content of the curent endgame.
how lame.
we know its best ranged fighting against tentacles but at least they should have given another nonlair raid and should have made most bosses and mobs immune to root in instances.
It sucks that everytime we become live testers of the game and they dump it after seeing the real truth.

p.s : thank saurfenion for sharing your opinion ; it comes to the same point bad content design and not thouroghly tested.

and how stupid is that hunters wont get much love from lothlorien
come on its lothlorien and archers of Galadhrim which we have been so long waiting for but nope ; hunters get another slap in the face; well at least world art rock thanks to QC.

[Eorthor]

and how stupid is that hunters wont get much love from lothlorien
come on its lothlorien and archers of Galadhrim which we have been so long waiting for but nope ; hunters get another slap in the face; well at least world art rock thanks to QC.

Oh yeah, i mean, it's not like half the crafted items currently in game seem to be near on perfect for hunters, and yeah ANOTHER slap in the face, after being buffed so we can hit Half of a level 60 elite's morale in 1 hit.

./sarcasm off.

[Saurfenion]

From current hunter position.. All they should have done was, lower the spike damage from hunter damage (OMG 11k crit crap).. Instead keep it at much more stable DPS output..

Give every other melee class the same range on there bow/crossbow.. Give every caster class 1 spell that can be used for pulling from the same range as hunters can..

And I would bet you would have heared alot less crying for nerfs already..

Add the global weapon nerf incomibination with weakers mobs (so in global it wouldnt affect melee/hunter, just buff tactical classes).. But we know turbine, they rather twiddle around with all the skills is just asking for more problems, which are going to take 6 months to fix again..

[MéLAnoR]

looking at the poll values ( not many people voted yet but) there is not one major factor behind the chages we can say.
And these 3 factors are kinda linked to each other ; that might be the reason.

[Sidamos]

I have away more information and input than just the 2 hours i played on my own.
We have alike 8-9 toons on the test server.
And having seen something live always is better than just guessing. You post a lot of
stuff without the needed information or just rambling about it.

For example you posted screenshots of skills and their values. This screenshot is
irrelevant so long you don't write which weapon was equipped but meh keep
complaining for that a forum exists.

[OMWiener]

I have away more information and input than just the 2 hours i played on my own.
We have alike 8-9 toons on the test server.
And having seen something live always is better than just guessing. You post a lot of
stuff without the needed information or just rambling about it.

For example you posted screenshots of skills and their values. This screenshot is
irrelevant so long you don't write which weapon was equipped but meh keep
complaining for that a forum exists.

It's not irrelevant if you wish to compare power costs and percentage of weapon. The olny thing incomparable is the additional damage on the skills.

Having seen something live is not representative either. I've been playing since beta and i was convinced that champs did more single target damage than hunter in SoA, while my champ friends thought otherwise. It's all subjective as well

Even the "information" you have is as valuable as the "information" we have from other forum posts i.e. it's second-hand and subjective. You are partially right that we have no grasp of the situation because we haven't experienced it yet, but neither do you because to be able to truly grasp the situation, you must have a lot more playtime then the test-server will allow. So get off your high horse already.

[Silmahad]

...and it is always good to know exact values and maybe even comparions as early as possible before the **** hits the fan. If something is wrong and gets live it will maybe stay for years in this game, we all know about Turbines "fast reaction" on bugs etc..

Add to that, that my trust in mathemetical knowledge and balancing experience of Turbine is somewhat weakened during my gameplay here, cos if you want to copy WoW and shine in its not bad classbalancing, skillsystem and game mechanics, you need to do it well, not halfheartly.

[Havard]

Voted for the PvE class balance (speaking as a guardian, incurable altist and obsessed quest completer).
Same


567890

[Sidamos]

I don't sit on a high horse because I critisize the argumentation. Some ppl just repeat
and reapeat nerfed nerfed nerfed isn't contructive. I strictly stand to my point that you
need to play and see something live before you can really discuss about it. There is
away too many assumptions.

So what's a fact now ?

Seems strength stance costs still +40% power but only +25% damage.
Direct bonus of skills are hardly lowered.
ICB bonus reduced from 50% to alike 27-29%.
PR bonus of BotR reduced by 21-22%.
MS trait bonus reduced from 100% to +50% crit damage.

Is that so dramatically ?

[OMWiener]

on top of the nerf to weapons? Yes, all those changes weren't really needed. Off course they aren't dramatic, but they weren't needed either. The nerf to weapons would have done a lot already (don't care about the Ms crit really)

[Silmahad]

1) Seems strength stance costs still +40% power but only +25% damage.
2) Direct bonus of skills are hardly lowered.
3) ICB bonus reduced from 50% to alike 27-29%.
4) PR bonus of BotR reduced by 21-22%.
5) MS trait bonus reduced from 100% to +50% crit damage.
Is that so dramatically ?

I am ****ed about 2 things:

to 1) They mentioned an adjustement of S:S bonuses provided by the BM line I rephrase "less damage but also less threat and less powerconsumption"
I can live with 5% less damage, but..

Question: Where TO THE HELL is the less powerconsumption on that Tooltip on the Testserver?

to 3) I can live with that, it angers me, that they touch our skills at all in addition to the weapon dps nerf, but for heavens sake...

to 4) WTH?? WHY DO THEY TOUCH THIS AT ALL?? what is the sense? what does this have to do with burst damage and high threat in fellowship play, what does this have to do with PvM?

to 5) A PvM skill in my opinion, I am not really bothered, I maybe can use this in a normal Bossfight twice and the difference to PS is small, if no crit and not traited.

So my question, why do they touch our powerreg?

It will make a difference, mob moral of Bosses won't be decreased, and as I saw from a testserver screen a Globsnaga Pulpum (signature mob type) will have godlike 3% moral less, so with 20% less weapon damage + 5% less S:S damage (presumed you can use this stance) + x % less ISB damage we are at 25% to maybe 28% less damage overall (in S:S) and nerfed powerreg, but no lowered Bossmoral and pathetic lowered Elite mob moral on the other side (I would like to see the exact difference of the watcher tentacles preB7 and B7).

[Gainas]

Voted for PvE class balance. I can accept an uber-nuker class, as everywhere in any MMo, but then having it in medium armor (which by the way doens't penalize too much vs. havey armor as it works in Lotro), with decent melee, good survivability (compared to nuker classes from other MMO), taxi capability, with a perfect panic-button then it is too much.

[MéLAnoR]

Voted for PvE class balance. I can accept an uber-nuker class, as everywhere in any MMo, but then having it in medium armor (which by the way doens't penalize too much vs. havey armor as it works in Lotro), with decent melee, good survivability (compared to nuker classes from other MMO), taxi capability, with a perfect panic-button then it is too much.
we dont have basic heal abilitiesand btw this caught my attention
decent melee you said ???
Perfect panic button as DF?
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/funny-pictures-black-l-cat-lol.jpg

i dont care the way they change hunter ; there will awlays be changes.

[Umami]

For me, what should have been one of LOTRO's strongest assets was the fact that classbalance in PvP could be balanced easily by adjusting the CREEPS and not the freeps, making the PvE side of the game unaffected by PvP!

The overall weapon dps reduction and the nerf to mob's morale just doesnt add up as i see it... Shouldnt those 2 things more or less just cancel eachother out??

Turbine decided to pound hunters with yet another nerfbat. In my mind there is no question why... PvMP

[Redeemer]

I am glad hunters got a nerf. They needed it, both PvE and PvP (even more so the 2nd).

The weapon DPS nerf affects EVERY class, not just hunters. It is a clever way, I think, of balancing the scaling of tactical DPS compared with weapon DPS (for those of you unaware, base tactical damage went up roughly 20% with moria, whilst weapon based DPS went up 70-100%). Mob difficulty is being reduced also. Not just morale, mitigations/avoidances also play a part.

The changes to the class WILL NOT be because of PvP, I think you should get that into your head before we hear the usual "this is not a PvP game, PvP should be deleted, creeps are a bunch of whiners" crap.

They could EASILY have given a debuff to hunters whilst in the ettens. We all know the technology is there (DR, use of stun/root pots, etc.), a -30% ranged damage debuff on hunters (or more likely a -30% incoming ranged damage buff on creeps) for example.

Sorry for the caps, might get through to certain posters on this forum more easily. ;)

[OMWiener]

The weapon DPS nerf affects EVERY class, not just hunters. It is a clever way, I think, of balancing the scaling of tactical DPS compared with weapon DPS (for those of you unaware, base tactical damage went up roughly 20% with moria, whilst weapon based DPS went up 70-100%). Mob difficulty is being reduced also. Not just morale, mitigations/avoidances also play a part.


If you actually bothered to read the thread, you would notice that no one is complaining about the weapon dps nerf, but about skill nerfs, unnecessary skill nerfs most of them.

[Silmahad]

Maybe the option menue given in this poll is incomplete, maybe it's just as simple as it seems, an obstacle to slow down the working off of content.

Remember these funny things:

-"Hiding behind the throne of Igash"
-"waiting 10 minutes at the bridge and it is still hardmode
-going out of groups ("warg tactics") in Fil Gashan, Skumfil and even 16. Hall
-"doortricks" in DD and 16. Hall Endboss
-leaving out 3 Bosses in the forge and killing the Endboss in the cavern entrance to avoid the fire

Another juwel:

-Resetting the watcher ID

..ah, and last but not least:

Noble Mark generating 40 times the intended threat, so you could trivialize bossencounters with kiting strategies while burning down the bosses with hunters in S:S.

Those are the reasons that whole servers now have dressed even their 4th twink in radiance pieces and already have the "watcher slayer" title :-)

Ok, the bad guy who is guilty of all this was now found and punished :-)

[Scappydog]

If this change is to rebalance PvE, then it is acceptable. Much as I dislike seeing so much 'rebalancing' hit the Hunter class in one go, I can live with it if it means other people get to enjoy playing their chosen class again and my role isn't compromised. All classes should be able to fulfil their designed role in a fellowship.

My big concern is in Turbines monitoring of this game; pre-release testing that enabled this 'imbalance' to go live, stay live for so long and create such bad feeling in the game.

If they have used the same testing/evaluation procedure on these changes then I have little confidence that they have got it right this time. Only the release of Book 7 and live play will tell us that.

[-V-engeance]

This is in my opinion a nerf to hunters heavily dominated by PVMP, the devs can deny this as much as they care to do so, but I haven't seen one single justification as to why the fixes are needed in the PVE setting. That goes for both the general change to dps and the specific nerfs to the hunter class. Lowering weapon dps and mob morale simultaneously is self defeating for weapon based classes, if it is designed to aid tactical damage classes will the RK be more of a dps beast now as if only weapon damage is effected they won't suffer at all. Surely upping this tactical damage for the underpowered classes would have been a better fix if the aim was to bring them into line.

Combine that sort of fix with an increase to creep morale/resistance/mitigation and things are balanced instead of this ham fisted messing around with pve to fix pvp.

[MordecaiWard]

Considering that there are only 2 devs for PvMP and that they are only partial time (as shown in dev diaries and dev chats) the PvMP option can be mostly forgoten. Any change they will do to PVMP will not affect PVE being rather the opposite. The only effect it should have had upon the dev team is to help them to confirm some assumptions.

From that premise they were checking the results of the changes made to the combat system and found 2 things:

- Tactical damage was way lower than weapon damage.
- They had modified all the combat system but had forgotten to modify stats (morale/dps/etc.) so the continued with the combat system modifications by reducing mob morale and DPS in order to get some ration with mobs stats vs players.

I think that it is an error to reduce stats and it would be better for them to raise them (nerf always gives a psycological problem). So if they had buffed the non weapon users a 30% and players morale 30% few people would have claimed.

Upon that they decided to nerf the hunter because he was dong too much damage. So as a result it seems that hunter will be nerfed around 10% after considering the global damage/morale reduction. (30% less DPS forweapons and 30% less morale for mobs?).

This seems an error since it is done at the same time other changes that may seem nerfs are done.

[Scatha the Worm]

I wasn't going to post here, since I have already done most of my complaining elsewhere, but I just can't help it after reading some responses.

I voted for Flawed Content design. The fact that every instance and encounter in Moria is a DPS race with high melee incoming damage, aggro generating classes seriously broken and CC being highly trivialized, is the factor here.

Almost every instance boss is easily kiteable, a lot of timer events suggest DPS racing, and The Watcher... well, the +% melee dmg buffs say it all, and the tentacle spawning/curing timers demand high DPS. That raid was designed to make melee classes barely useful.

I'm very glad that the forgotten classes of moria are getting some attention, it was highly needed, Guardians and Burglars specially.

To those arguing balance... I fail yet to see that so clearly. At least from the numbers, I can see that we're going back to having to struggle to be on top of DPS performance above champs, and rks seem to be getting a bump enough to raise serious questions.
Our sustained DPS is getting hit again, and cookie-cutter one-dimensional role builds are very near over the horizon. This is exatly what made the class boring in SoA, and we're heading straight back into it. If we're not supposed to be good enough at single target DPS to seriously outshine everyone else, present us options to keep it interesting.

[Umami]

The changes to the class WILL NOT be because of PvP, I think you should get that into your head before we hear the usual "this is not a PvP game, PvP should be deleted, creeps are a bunch of whiners" crap.

They could EASILY have given a debuff to hunters whilst in the ettens. We all know the technology is there (DR, use of stun/root pots, etc.), a -30% ranged damage debuff on hunters (or more likely a -30% incoming ranged damage buff on creeps) for example.



Explain to me why heart seeker got a big flashy thingy hit their target before its actually fired if its not because of PVP... This was added more than a year ago in a series of nerfs hitting the hunter every time a new book came out. Most if it because of PvP. Now its starting all over again :(

[Alya]

Explain to me why heart seeker got a big flashy thingy hit their target before its actually fired if its not because of PVPpYou'll be surprised. Orion (the main PvP dev) actually argued against a HS reticule, but the content designers insisted on keeping it for the PvE purposes. Since the GFX elements cannot be divorced between PvP and PvE, it is not possible to remove them from one realm but keep in another. There was quite a long debate about this issue on the US boards. You can look it up if you are really interested.

[Updated:] Here's the link (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=169695&highlight=reticule) and some discussion about the HS reticule (one of many). The actual post by Orion is quoted in the post #16 in that thread, even though the original thread has been purged.

Considering that there are only 2 devs for PvMP and that they are only partial time (as shown in dev diaries and dev chats) the PvMP option can be mostly forgoten. Any change they will do to PVMP will not affect PVE being rather the opposite. The only effect it should have had upon the dev team is to help them to confirm some assumptions.Quoted for truth. Knowing the history of Turbine's changes I am perfectly confident that monster play is their absolutely last consideration when it comes to core class tweaks.

[Viceciceror]

the thing is , you can vote all you want but you never know it for sure cause you *think* turbine did it for that reason , only turbine itself can reveal the true reason(s) they did this and you can not

[MéLAnoR]

the thing is , you can vote all you want but you never know it for sure cause you *think* turbine did it for that reason , only turbine itself can reveal the true reason(s) they did this and you can not
lol turbine never reveals fact to community and apart from a couple of class devs like Hakai and ZC you wont get a response ; maybe some teasing from some devs like anyone remember the roheryn forochel update?
there was a single use trapt with tooltip :
"A little nerf don't hurt much"
This is how some devs show their attitude but im keeping dangerdan out of his.
the latest nerf came out of whines is not related to him but he did his job.
must be the seniors of turbine decided in that way.
Imo DD made a marvellous job with mom regarding many broken hunter skills especially CC.
We just need him to focus on other stuff like long forgotten traits and skills as :
Port skills in one single window
Bards arrow
Enduring precision
Sturdy trap with exact tooltips.
Better melee functionality ( i love the bow stance - melee skills duos)
And overall a rework on huntsmen legendary
Better dps with Trapper of foes due to latest nerf on dps making it incredibly hard to use.

[Viceciceror]

lol turbine never reveals fact to community and apart from a couple of class devs like Hakai and ZC you wont get a response ; maybe some teasing from some devs like anyone remember the roheryn forochel update?
there was a single use trapt with tooltip :
"A little nerf don't hurt much"
This is how some devs show their attitude but im keeping dangerdan out of his.
the latest nerf came out of whines is not related to him but he did his job.
must be the seniors of turbine decided in that way.
Imo DD made a marvellous job with mom regarding many broken hunter skills especially CC.
We just need him to focus on other stuff like long forgotten traits and skills as :
Port skills in one single window
Bards arrow
Enduring precision
Sturdy trap with exact tooltips.
Better melee functionality ( i love the bow stance - melee skills duos)
And overall a rework on huntsmen legendary
Better dps with Trapper of foes due to latest nerf on dps making it incredibly hard to use.

i think turbine never says it cause they enjoy reading all the conspiracy threads about the reasons they do something ;)

[JK_Collector]

After reading over the posts here I can see why people are compalining. I voted for flawed content design, I'm a guardian and dps racing is well. No.

However the content design is only 70% of the problem. I hate to say it as I am a creep but the remaining 30% is from PvMP. Now the problem in PvMP is the damage that can be output by any class is far too high hence why all classes are recieving the dps reduction. Now as I'm not skilled in the way of the hunter, yet, I cant comment on the other changes but I do hope they dont nerf you too badly.

This time it seems to be the small changes on both sides that are causing problems instead of the buff/nerf of the creepside.

[Barandir]

I also voted "Flawed Content Design"
While I do think that PvMP would have been in the back of Devs minds I don't think that was the main reason. On a side note I think althought it would cost far to much effort and according to the rumblings of Devs would probably never change (Lotro is a story after all) the way MP toons are leveled and geared up is fundamentaly flawed. MP basicly rank with kills and DP and start at 60 where as Freeps are lvl'd from 1-60/Cap what are they balancing? its an unknown quantity, one freep might be fully kitted for raiding with full rank 10 traits and a uber 1st age fully ranked and relic'd weapons where as another might be a casual lvl 60 player with a modist setup... I'm not that big on PvMP anyway but seems like a tough thing to actually ever make even.
Back on track, having atlast completed all the Moria content barring the broken quests and a couple of deeds that are near impossible to do when most instance runs for me have been done HM since I hit 60 I can say looking back, What the heck were they thinking?... Oh yep I remember $$. I proudly told a friend of mine who plays WoW that there was no Easy Mode when it came to quests in Lotro and his lazy way of following an arrow for quests would never be a part of my favorite MMOG as it was for the more mature player who enjoys a good story and the content that goes with it... /handface
but this seems to really have gotten out of control, the amount of bugs that sprung up everywhere since Moria was just insane and shows in the plain light of day just how rushed the development was. It is very evident on the forums and ingame just how much strain has been put on the entire player base with some classes almost totally moth-balled people arguing over almost every aspect of the game that pre-moria seemed pretty balanced. I know the power of "The One Ring" is getting stronger I feel it every time I log on.
Looking at the content the way skills and stats seem to rise between 50 to 60 does seem a bit strange, going from SoA to Moria with my Hunter once the game was installed I did feel a loss in overall ability, mainly taking more damage and giving out less but once I strated to get better gear that soon changed, at lvl 51 having tweaked my traits and gear I found myself able to solo lvl58 mobs with around 500 moral to spare not that I did that too often but it was possible and now, Pre Book 7 I find my Hunter is a very flexable tool of destruction. What I'm really curious to see is if my hunter is about to return to his old status of taxi.
DPS Driven content:
Weapons XP instances; at least 3 of the 9 instances seem totally DPS driven
Timed HM runs; GS, FD
HM with ubuer repop rates; Skumfill hmmmmmmm we need more DPS??
The Watcher: "get it down GET IT DOWN! Oh to slow he's healing :(" sound familiar? not to mention the whole uber mele buffs
Book 5 Chater 5 battle quests; bit of a no brainer but the more dps you have the less swamped you get by the CRAZY rate of attacks
but with the mob moral drop our nerf might not effect that too much... oh wait they nerf'd hunter dps twice.
Right now if I'm asked to do a HM run for someone I take my Hunter as main tank which I agree is silly but after countless runs I know it works 100% of the time and is the easiest and fastest way to do things,
GS: first 2 bosses I can happily stand toe to toe and dps them down in strength, I'll never lose agro so the healer (doesn't have to be a Mini, Cappy LM or RK work just fine if traited to heal) has an easy job, it goes fast we get to the final boss and I grab agro, use QS Slow kite and kill, one happy fs member gets a nice pair of shoes.
exactly the same goes for FG
16th Hall is just as easy but more of a kite fest especially the final boss
infact all the HM runs follow a similar theme and I know plenty of other people from other kins who do exactly the same difficulty/risk and No.1 speed all tend to equate to this being the best way to do things, Speed being uber important when you have to do 6-8 HM runs per evening to get a raid group geared up.
So all the Bosses are being "fixed" so that slowing effects no longer work on them, we can no longer trap bosses in the rift or any other instances... mmmkay, guess they forgot they made our set trap skills easier to use incombat.
Our BoR is loosing some of its power- this feels as if the Devs are actually trying to force us out of Strength stance. Although personally I only ever slotted it for the Watcher runs anyway, the old raid content seems pretty trivial as getting hope from the rift or hele is mostly a 6 man affair now

My main point is yes we needed a DPS cut and yes it should be a champ or guardian tanking, but it isn't right that so many changes should land on us as we were ment to be the main single traget dps class, more testing, more thought on content design plz.

The tweaks do seem to stack heavily against hunters, reduced weapon dps, reduced dps buffs in strength, the champs rend skill being nerfed(mean we do less dps than before when grouped with a champ who has improved rend) Quality of Mercy's multiplier reduced,
Improved Swift Bow, third shot damage reduced, Quick Shot reduced,
"The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced"

we did however get a +10% speed buff for fleet stance.... /sigh

*************Stops Writing**************

I just went to the US forums and I can't find the Book 7 Patch notes anymore, Found lots of dev responses saying wooops that was wrong, sorry blah blah blah tight deadlines, 40 pages blah blah but I can't find the actual notes, the link i had no longer works can anyone give confirm or have i just gone mental? they are still here on the CM forum tho :S

[Overlord2]

Ouch OP, wall of text crits you for 10.000 of text damage.

Anyway, I didnt bother to read all of the thread, to much :D
But even though the dev's say otherwise I do think you were nerfed because of pvp. Most likely. OR it was because you did to much dps to make instances challenging.

[Kheld]

Well basically Turbine screwed up.

Pre-MoM Hunter weapon dps was what, 32 at best?

Now for 3rd age its 50.

On 2nd & 1st age its absolutely sick.

While changing the bow dps they didnt scale everything else - which has caused problems & now they are trying to fix it.

Beep beep, taxi!

[nightbyday]

Ouch OP, wall of text crits you for 10.000 of text damage.

Anyway, I didnt bother to read all of the thread, to much :D
But even though the dev's say otherwise I do think you were nerfed because of pvp. Most likely. OR it was because you did to much dps to make instances challenging.

I read it and he was right ;p

[Viceciceror]

I also voted "Flawed Content Design"
While I do think that PvMP would have been in the back of Devs minds I don't think that was the main reason. On a side note I think althought it would cost far to much effort and according to the rumblings of Devs would probably never change (Lotro is a story after all) the way MP toons are leveled and geared up is fundamentaly flawed. MP basicly rank with kills and DP and start at 60 where as Freeps are lvl'd from 1-60/Cap what are they balancing? its an unknown quantity, one freep might be fully kitted for raiding with full rank 10 traits and a uber 1st age fully ranked and relic'd weapons where as another might be a casual lvl 60 player with a modist setup... I'm not that big on PvMP anyway but seems like a tough thing to actually ever make even.
Back on track, having atlast completed all the Moria content barring the broken quests and a couple of deeds that are near impossible to do when most instance runs for me have been done HM since I hit 60 I can say looking back, What the heck were they thinking?... Oh yep I remember $$. I proudly told a friend of mine who plays WoW that there was no Easy Mode when it came to quests in Lotro and his lazy way of following an arrow for quests would never be a part of my favorite MMOG as it was for the more mature player who enjoys a good story and the content that goes with it... /handface
but this seems to really have gotten out of control, the amount of bugs that sprung up everywhere since Moria was just insane and shows in the plain light of day just how rushed the development was. It is very evident on the forums and ingame just how much strain has been put on the entire player base with some classes almost totally moth-balled people arguing over almost every aspect of the game that pre-moria seemed pretty balanced. I know the power of "The One Ring" is getting stronger I feel it every time I log on.
Looking at the content the way skills and stats seem to rise between 50 to 60 does seem a bit strange, going from SoA to Moria with my Hunter once the game was installed I did feel a loss in overall ability, mainly taking more damage and giving out less but once I strated to get better gear that soon changed, at lvl 51 having tweaked my traits and gear I found myself able to solo lvl58 mobs with around 500 moral to spare not that I did that too often but it was possible and now, Pre Book 7 I find my Hunter is a very flexable tool of destruction. What I'm really curious to see is if my hunter is about to return to his old status of taxi.
DPS Driven content:
Weapons XP instances; at least 3 of the 9 instances seem totally DPS driven
Timed HM runs; GS, FD
HM with ubuer repop rates; Skumfill hmmmmmmm we need more DPS??
The Watcher: "get it down GET IT DOWN! Oh to slow he's healing :(" sound familiar? not to mention the whole uber mele buffs
Book 5 Chater 5 battle quests; bit of a no brainer but the more dps you have the less swamped you get by the CRAZY rate of attacks
but with the mob moral drop our nerf might not effect that too much... oh wait they nerf'd hunter dps twice.
Right now if I'm asked to do a HM run for someone I take my Hunter as main tank which I agree is silly but after countless runs I know it works 100% of the time and is the easiest and fastest way to do things,
GS: first 2 bosses I can happily stand toe to toe and dps them down in strength, I'll never lose agro so the healer (doesn't have to be a Mini, Cappy LM or RK work just fine if traited to heal) has an easy job, it goes fast we get to the final boss and I grab agro, use QS Slow kite and kill, one happy fs member gets a nice pair of shoes.
exactly the same goes for FG
16th Hall is just as easy but more of a kite fest especially the final boss
infact all the HM runs follow a similar theme and I know plenty of other people from other kins who do exactly the same difficulty/risk and No.1 speed all tend to equate to this being the best way to do things, Speed being uber important when you have to do 6-8 HM runs per evening to get a raid group geared up.
So all the Bosses are being "fixed" so that slowing effects no longer work on them, we can no longer trap bosses in the rift or any other instances... mmmkay, guess they forgot they made our set trap skills easier to use incombat.
Our BoR is loosing some of its power- this feels as if the Devs are actually trying to force us out of Strength stance. Although personally I only ever slotted it for the Watcher runs anyway, the old raid content seems pretty trivial as getting hope from the rift or hele is mostly a 6 man affair now

My main point is yes we needed a DPS cut and yes it should be a champ or guardian tanking, but it isn't right that so many changes should land on us as we were ment to be the main single traget dps class, more testing, more thought on content design plz.

The tweaks do seem to stack heavily against hunters, reduced weapon dps, reduced dps buffs in strength, the champs rend skill being nerfed(mean we do less dps than before when grouped with a champ who has improved rend) Quality of Mercy's multiplier reduced,
Improved Swift Bow, third shot damage reduced, Quick Shot reduced,
"The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced"

we did however get a +10% speed buff for fleet stance.... /sigh

*************Stops Writing**************

I just went to the US forums and I can't find the Book 7 Patch notes anymore, Found lots of dev responses saying wooops that was wrong, sorry blah blah blah tight deadlines, 40 pages blah blah but I can't find the actual notes, the link i had no longer works can anyone give confirm or have i just gone mental? they are still here on the CM forum tho :S

NERF the wall of text its definitly to OP;)

[matobi91]

I would say because it was to much, people just piled on the DPS (hunetrs and champs) and forgot about the other classes (burgs, LM) and it made most content to easy. I think it is a good thing, if they have changed it to much or not enough we will have to wait till the book goes live, untill then i am happy.

So i will say option 2 for PVE balance.

[LAW666]

I voted bad game content, I havent even had a chance to do the watcher yet, still trying to get the much needed radiance armour...Yes im a Hunter! i didnt choose this class because its easy street or because we make tons of gold as many have siad in game and in here! i chose it because i like playing ranged characters (FPS games sniper class etc). What annoys me is the things i read about the watcher raid! why the hell would u create an instance (the biggest in moira) and exclude guardians/champs etc? why would u make solo instances that are near impossible for LM,s and mins to complete in time? yes they can do it i know but im thinking of the more casual players, who play for fun. And as far as lothlorien goes, yeah i farm there quite often and i dont seem to pull all the mobs as suggested better than any other class, i may take on 2 targets by trapping or fear and then dps down....guards ive seen there can run upto a mob of 4 and take the lot...many friends who play champ or capt brag with great pleasure about using shouts at mobs to **** hunters off! fair enough! personally if im in lorien and i see lower lvls i assume they're questing and will ask them, at which point i sit back till they finished...what am i farming! weapon xp plain and simple (given that 2nd age drop rate for me is nearly non -existent) yes take the **** and say how galant of you to consider other players needs...errm im not the only one ive this many times in lorien from us farmers Guards/Champs/Hunters alike we even take turns at times farming the mobs...its fun..you will always get loot *****s and money hungry players its part of any game like this...but to single out a certain class (again seen it in many games yawn) is tiresome to say the least..i didnt make this game i just pay to play and i choose hunter class...so nerf away slag off the hunter again hell remove the hunter from the game if u so wish...if i feel the hunter isnt as much fun to play with after the patch well ill play a different game (but not WOW lol)...whats one subscription anyway!!

[Tuarwen Telumendil]

I think that hunter nerfing has to do with the PvMP mostly.

PvMP requires changes, more than any other sector in Lotro. But instead of doing something good for the ettens, they change the whole char and we have a domino effect. Nerf hunter dmg, oh no we have to nerf mobs and bosses and instances too.

I say leave the Pve as it is. Hunter is supposed to have the best dps, champion a bit lower dps but more defensive abilities, then comes wardens, guardians, captains and the support classes. I cant understand why a guardian or a champ should be frustrated about our dmg. I would be happy to have some of their skills and give them some dps of mine.

But i dont think that this nerf is caused by concerning freeps and pvers. The whole thing in ettens is pretty lame right now. Before the patch note release, i was seriously worrying that all creeps are gonna leave ettens, because the overpowered creeps. So, with every right, they complain about this, and Turbine heard their prays. But they decided to fix this the wrong way. Why nerf something (negative action) and not buff up the other side? I mean wouldnt it be better if hunters did the same amount of dmg, but the creeps died a lot harder?? Wouldnt it be better if creeps had some kind of protection against our outrageous dmg?? We would have happy huntards then, proud of their 5k heartseeker and happy creeps, proud about pwning freeps all the time.

Removing or nerfing something in any mmo shows (at least for me) lack of imagination, inspiration and unwillingness to work things better.

Oh yeah, last but not least, if the devs even consider to fix our 2 other paths (trapper and huntsmen) i would gladly get rid of my bowmaster set.

[Belechael]

What most people fail to realize is that any dps nerfs, including the extra hunter dps nerfs, will make all the content much harder and slower, not just the hunters' solo capabilities.

Now, most of us should not have a problem with harder and slower fights, provided they are interesting, challenging and dare I say: FUN!

I voted flawed content design, since everything points to that direction: dps oriented boss fights, mobs' high tactical resistances, considerable loss of BPE, extremely off scale weapon dps, healing that doesn't scale with the mobs' damage output, terrain and mob problems that lead to a lot of exploits, etc. etc.

Apparently the plan was to have those instances, this cluster raid system, and the watcher lair to occupy us for many more months. As you all know this failed miserably, and something must be done.

What I'm afraid is that all these changes will again fail to achieve balance, because they are a lot! And forgive me for not believing that all the playtesters failed to mention the facts that Hunters finish the Library in a matter of minutes, the minstrels and LMs have mobs resist their skills 75% of the time, the guardians can't hold aggro no matter what and so on.

Are the designers going to succeed now that they have more feedback?

Are we going to see balance in ADDITION to more interesting, challenging and fun encounters?

Or are we all going to roll BAs? ;)

We will know soon, and lets hope for the best, not for just one class, but for the whole game.

[CountJabberwock]

I couldn't decide between bad game content or PvMP changes - but voted for MP in the end. I hate PvMP and always thought LOTRO was a PvE game - so please no more nerfs because of MP!
I've stopped playing my hunter (well actual I've stopped playing LOTRO at all because the hunter was my only char and I don't have enough time to grind through all of this (reputation/traits/xp) again with a second char) after the horrible Month of the Hunter changes. One year later I came back with Moria and I was really happy. I'm still sorrow for what they did to Bard's Arrow and other skills but now the hunter's solo play was really nice in Moria (I solo everything except for large fellowship quests). Looks like Book 7 is a kind of second Month of the Hunter. If these changes are really that bad I will again stop playing a broken class until the next expansion at the end of the year.

[Orthelian]

I went to the Moors on a creep for the first time ever the other day. All was going well util the Hunters came on. The moment I was seen by a Hunter I was guaranteed death, I was rooted before I had the chance to move out away and was taken down in under 2 seconds or so, if there was more than one Hunter I would be lucky to live 0.5 seconds. I know this game is a not PvP orientated, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason for the nerf, the damage was unreal.

[Selwen]

I think that Turbine had a few problems to deal with with book 7:

1) Tactical resist rates for 50-60 mobs through the roof, disproportionately affecting Minstrels/LM's/RK's and to a guardians (with taunt resists).

2) Creeps being seriously overmatched DPS-wise due to the changes to both PvE DPS and their own mitigations (as part of the global combat system changes).

3)Physical DPS scaling up much faster from level 50-60 compared to tactical DPS.

So, they start by reducing resist/mitigation rates/morale on level 51+ mobs and giving creeps a buff to mitigation. Hmm... "What about this massive increase in physical DPS we've given to players though? We can't keep that now as it'll be too easymode for them with reduced mob mitigations".

So, physical DPS got reduced by a percentage across the board (which coincidentally helped with creep mitigation as well). Who notices percentage changes the most? The classes with the highest DPS... and as many hunters feel that DPS is all they bring to the table I can understand the concerns. (I don't think it is all they bring to the table myself, but with the CC changes in book 7 their secondary role may not be too useful either :\ )

What remains to be seen is how far they've swung the pendulum the other way... perhaps they've nerfed physical DPS too far compared to tactical now and they'll do a further "rebalance" to both in the future.

It does sound like it sucks for you guys but it's not the first time it's happened after all :). As for me, I'll continue to plod along on my warden and just stack my tactical bleeds rather than physical attacks. It will make tanking a bit more dull though... keeping aggro from hunters in strength was the only thing that really made me work hard on my warden before book 7 :).

And Mel, if the hunter does get too painful to play, that's always an option for you too :)

Edit: Orthelian, I think that the changes they made had as much to do with balancing tactical versus physical damage, but as a happy coincidence also helped to even out PvMP. I suspect that with the stackable incurable DoTs on the creepside that the pendulum has swung too far the other way there too though, so I expect those will get nerfed or made curable in the not too distant future.

[Imbavince]

well coming to the moors for the first time as a creep is frustrating for sure...but bear in mind that you log on as a swarm-like being...To finish a swarm-bat in moria takes me one skill...I need more than that for a greenie in the moors ;-)
While I seriously thought PvP was unbalanced, you still have to keep in mind that player skill is what keeps you alive longer in a pvp situation. This is not PvE, real people are playing on the other side and are supposed to outsmart you, when you log in for the first time...

[Orthelian]

Yes, I did find that all the other higher ranked Creeps seemed to have a lot more tactics and i'd just run around like crazy a lot of the time, mostly due to lag. It is very laggy out there ;)

[MéLAnoR]

..

And Mel, if the hunter does get too painful to play, that's always an option for you too :)

...i agree most of what you said.
Hunter will be fine ; its just annoying to get only nerfs and not many fix ; even those animations are still bugged and that ****es me off.
You can nerf a class to balance things but why not address many other broken stuff along ; just nerf nerf nerf?
And they also broke the ranged bpe miss and resist it seems.
Well book 7 only brings broken stuff for hunters shamefully except the IFS %10 attack duration buff which is questionable for ranged fight.( nerfs are not included to this statement its due to balance )
The class will contine to shine and will be fun without a doubt.
And im slowly moving towards another community ; more WAR friendly :):clap:

[WebbyWebbyWebby]

One word: ADAPT.

Creeps had to adapt when Moria hit, you should adapt too. How you guys can complain about this absolutely astonishes me, your damage output was overpowered and off the scale.

The changes being applied are simply to put a dampener on your DPS, much like you would put a limiter on a Ferrari. Your class won't be broken by this and you will still out dps anyone else, so take it on the chin!!

Oh and Mel, War has more class in-balance than lotro and it actually is game breaking, so I don't think you'll find your answer there!

[MéLAnoR]

..

Oh and Mel, War has more class in-balance than lotro and it actually is game breaking, so I don't think you'll find your answer there!hehe mate i was referring WARDEN :D
btw you might be returning with book 7? :P

[Tayh]

Oh and Mel, War has more class in-balance than lotro and it actually is game breaking, so I don't think you'll find your answer there!
I beg your pardon!
WAR is one of the most PVP balanced games I have played, next after Guild Wars. ;)

[Imbavince]

yes good old gw...kind of missing it...really focusing on group play and very fun to play pvp wise...

really different from lotro though in the concept...

[Llewrend]

I beg your pardon!
WAR is one of the most PVP balanced games I have played, next after Guild Wars. ;)Hahah, I agree! My Disciple of Khaine can only solo 2-3 Order players! ;)

[Grishoo]

Hahah, I agree! My Disciple of Khaine can only solo 2-3 Order players! ;)

WAR is simply a rubbish game, I know, I played it for 3 months (I think I'm allowed to post that outlandish coment on a LOTRO forum :) ).

Back on topic and after some more game time in pvpe MoM; I'm really glad about the DPS nerf.
It is wrong that Hunters are so absolutely needed for much of the new content.
They are essentially the "plug-and-play class" in this game: Easy to learn - easy to master.

Yeah, they needed a boost pre-moria update. But lets face it, it went way too far.
This should be corrected with the next update.
Nothing against the class, since I played it myself but really who didn't see this coming?

[Scatha the Worm]

It is wrong that Hunters are so absolutely needed for much of the new content.
They are essentially the "plug-and-play class" in this game: Easy to learn - easy to master.

I don't agree with that. Hunter weren't "needed" for any fight except maybe the watcher or the odd "spam cure poison" place. They (and the allegedly OPed DPS) added speed to the combats but not much more. The content design is quite flawed if it allows for such combat mechanics and needs such a huge nerf and braking of a single class to maintain playability.

Also, Hunters may be easy to level, easy to farm with, but easy to master? Seriously, no. That is the reason for the overabundance of "huntards". Very few care enough to explore their trait setup, skill rotation, limits of ICPR needed, timing of situational skills (HS, MS being the ones the huntards spam out mindlessly), proper use of limited CC available, kiting, and on goes. We have relatively few tools (our DPS and minor CC, gimped as of Book 7) at our disposal to deal with the world set around us. Where many other classes can afford to screw up and not suffer that much, that you won't have on a hunter.

[velimirius]

WAR is simply a rubbish game, I know, I played it for 3 months (I think I'm allowed to post that outlandish coment on a LOTRO forum :) ).

Back on topic and after some more game time in pvpe MoM; I'm really glad about the DPS nerf.
It is wrong that Hunters are so absolutely needed for much of the new content.
They are essentially the "plug-and-play class" in this game: Easy to learn - easy to master.

Yeah, they needed a boost pre-moria update. But lets face it, it went way too far.
This should be corrected with the next update.
Nothing against the class, since I played it myself but really who didn't see this coming?

"easy to master"...
what game u played,wow?

[Imbavince]

easy to play- hard to master that sounds better, way better and also is a lot truer...

[Calladan]

Mastery is a tricky issue, kiting alone is a science. And running around with a mob on u is not kiting, as most, usually non hunters, think. But dont bother about easy to play etc etc, a nerf always makes players better . Remember The month of the Hunter and the enduring precision nèrf.

[Imbavince]

yeah this is a kind of fact: Before Moria I probably knew many hunters on my server and knew what they were capable of, because every hunter that couldn't stand all the nerfs already left or rolled another class as a main.
Well it probably be the same with bk7. And ervery hunter left will be one nerf-resistant, well-played hunter. That is a good thing of course.

On the other hand though: Do I want so many people constantly lose the fun in the hunter class? Just because I do not care what Turbine throws at us anymore, I feel quite bad when I see a fellow-hunter leave.

On top of that, despite all the OP, easymode cries, If Moria has done anything for me it definitely made me a better hunter. Bk7 will improve my skils even more, but my usefulness will suffer greatly, I guess.

[LAW666]

I guess Hunters are easy to play, it certainly says something like that when u create one at start-up. Low lvl suvivability is a little difficult for new players...mastery is another matter however...most non-hunter players say we are OP because they see a hunter take down one mob quicker than them, but i have been amazed many times by the guards endurance with many mobs and the amount of dps a champ can do to many mobs....

I remember my first time in Annuminas i was picking off mobs one at a time carefully trying to survive and watched a champ run in and take 5 out in a matter of minutes...that inspired me to roll a champ...

Instance wise and the MOM content..i see lff mins needed, Lm needed, tank needed....hell even captns are more needed than hunters!...hooray for captns been a long time coming for those chaps, we hardly ever used them in SOA...and rog runs cept to help kinnies out with gear.

And any hunter who says there glad there being nerfed because they agree at being overpowered is just insane...thats like going to ur boss and saying give me a pay cut im over paid lol

[Tayh]

Hahah, I agree! My Disciple of Khaine can only solo 2-3 Order players! ;)
2-3 bad Order players. ;)
The balance being that a War Priest can solo 2-3 bad Destro players too.

[Jaldorian]

Voted pvmp & im sure the whinest lobbyist are secretly smiling & thinking right whos next? devs made the hunter a scapegoat for there own mistakes. i hope they do see sense & fix the hunter for you but for me the turbine mob can take all the time in the world i have better things to do and loads of other games i want to check out.