Yep, nerf came

[Scatha the Worm]

Hunter

* Improved Swift Bow, third shot has been adjusted to be a bit more in line with a two-second induction skill. Sounds like a nerf
* Quality of Mercy's multiplier has been reduced.explicit one, there's a trait i wont bother slotting anymore
* The overall effectiveness of trait set bonuses for "The Bowmaster" has been reduced, but the Threat aspects and power consumptions have also gone down, enabling aggressive groups to attempt to deal with the Hunter aggro generated by Strength stance and not automatically make it the wrong choice. (Though groups and tanks are still going to have to be on their A game with high end Hunters who choose to be this... aggressive.)explicit nerf
* Barbed Arrow trait now has tooltip text that specifies the DoT pulse increase.meh
* Strength Quick Shot Slow Legacy now properly updates the tooltip of Quickshot while Strength Stance is active.tooltip fix? OMG this makes it sooooo good
* Improved Strength of Earth Morale Regen tooltip has been corrected so that it shows the proper morale regen increase.? this already reads right, but whatever
* Legacy Quick Shot Threat Down tooltip has been updated to reflect that this only works while in Endurance Stance.meh
* Bow of the Righteous growth at 50+ has been slowed.sounds like a nerf to ICPR, cool
* Quick Shot has been slightly reduced at 51+ to take into account the larger weapon contributions of post-Moria.nerf to quick shot, nice
* The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced to allow for stacking modifiers.so, another nerf with some strange explanation
* Legendary Fleet stance now adds a 10% attack speed buff. still useless

So.... We all knew it. We all saw it coming. I just hope (not like we will ever know) that this stupid nerf after showing us the almost perfect shaped class is not about the PvP complaints. That could have easily been dealt with without ruining it for the rest of the game.

So, ISB, MS, QS all have gotten damage nerfs. So I guess LM's and Champs crits will be probably above ours, except for stupid HS which as a damage skill sucks as anything other than a meh opener. If the class wasn't working the intented way, you shouldn't have done this, MAKE IT WORK PROPERLY FROM THE BEGGINING, there was plenty of time.

More rant coming soon.

[MéLAnoR]

runekeeper FTW :P

[Kirke]

well they reduce morale/mitegations for mobs as well... besides, the gap between all hunter > rest was out of control...

no reason to complain, you all saw it coming... off course the hunter dps would be "fixed"

[tmp]

So.... We all knew it. We all saw it coming. I just hope (not like we will ever know) that this stupid nerf after showing us the almost perfect shaped class is not about the PvP complaints. That could have easily been dealt with without ruining it for the rest of the game.
I think it's more thanks to the stuff like lore-master and hunter duoing group instances like 16th hall...

[MéLAnoR]

they nerf dps ok but i dont see any fixes about the class.
we have still many issues and they didnt fix anything jus nerf nerf.
still fleet stance isa joke
trapper set not viable anymore with extra nerf to dps.
Well i read the other class notes but didnt see much nerf to dps.
We even didnt see the stealth nerfs yet.
hope the new book doesnt break the class down to hell.
lets see..

[littleguy=)]

Well deserved ;) When I look at it all I only see the OP'ness being nerfed

Hunter are still the most deadly class in this game from range, and what u think is a big nerf are just medium large excepted nerfs to what was too good.

[Imbavince]

well i told you before i will always keep playing my hunter...but this really makes me cry, biggest nerf since the month of the hunter i guess...congratulations turbine!

and finally we can fulfill our primary class role: porting our group...

by the way don't forget that all weapons' dps decreased too, that will effect the moors as well...

[aop]

Someone at Turbine must have hated the idea of Hunters being somewhat useful for groups for other than taxi duties (taking down monsters).

[Murky Majare]

Yepp,

Back to taxi duty for us then. (Oh, and the Watcher)...
Guess doing more damage than the guardian and minstrel were too much for some to handle. I guess we can be happy that Turbine at least listens to some of the lotro players.

We got, what?... 3-4 tooltip fixes and 4-6 nerfs? At least the other classes at least got one benefit/improvement.

And as for the OP thing...
Sure there are some uber players out there that can use all power/skills the hunter class got and take down a foundation troll...

but *certainly* not the average hunter player.

I have however seen *all* other classes take one of these trolls down with ease, (and having played some some of them, I can hardly say they are much above average)... so OP compared to what?
Because we can do 1 more damage than the next class? By that default the minstrel are OP because they can heal more than the hunter... the burglar because they got better sneak than the guardian and so on.

Of course the hunter is the "best at ranged dps"... we could basically do 2 points of damage with range and be better than the other classes... just like the minstrels can do 1 point of healing and be superior to the hunter in healing.

Now, I might be able to do some damage while the creature is at range... but it closes that gap and enters melee within 1-2 attacks... at which time a good portion of our attacks are constantly interrupted, setting our induction back so that a single attack can take trice to four times the normal time... Adding more than one opponent.. (and really... how many places - especially quest destination ones - have only a single target?).. well, then we might as well flee as we cannot get attacks off.

Quests which for most other classes are no problem at all... for example ALL escort quests, or quests where we have to take out this or that named monster are *very* hard or even impossible to do at a hunter's level (white), but with my minstrel, burglar, champ, lm, I had no problems at all doing those quests 2-4 level above my current level.

So I call BS on the idea that hunters are OPed.

[MéLAnoR]

Hunter

Improved Swift Bow, third shot has been adjusted to be a bit more in line with a two-second induction skill.we should see if its a fix to animation or a nerf to the skills damage.



Quality of Mercy's multiplier has been reduced.major nerf

The overall effectiveness of trait set bonuses for "The Bowmaster" has been reduced, but the Threat aspects and power consumptions have also gone down, enabling aggressive groups to attempt to deal with the Hunter aggro generated by Strength stance and not automatically make it the wrong choice. (Though groups and tanks are still going to have to be on their A game with high end Hunters who choose to be this... aggressive.)we yet to see the numbers obviously a nerf and good to see they re forcing hunters to use alternative ways but where is damn fix to other traits ! this wont change the fact that eveveryone and their mother sill will use the BM setup/Dman where is my fleetstance set being fixed?

Barbed Arrow trait now has tooltip text that specifies the DoT pulse increase.where is my Barbed arrow Dot scaling with level?

Strength Quick Shot Slow Legacy now properly updates the tooltip of Quickshot while Strength Stance is active.already in game with previous patches

Improved Strength of Earth Morale Regen tooltip has been corrected so that it shows the proper morale regen increase. already in game with previous patches
Legacy Quick Shot Threat Down tooltip has been updated to reflect that this only works while in Endurance Stance.good it was confusing but i guess its already in game

Bow of the Righteous growth at 50+ has been slowed.lol why do you nerf this? seriously? there is some wizard clever guy that hunters should suffer with power issues all the time.you should instead make the other legendaries viable so that not every hunter and their mom chooses BA+RoT + Botr triple leg set.

Quick Shot has been slightly reduced at 51+ to take into account the larger weapon contributions of post-Moria.omg even nerf to QS lol hilarious i reckon champion harmstrin skill will make more damage then QS now.

The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced to allow for stacking modifiers.good for creeps but arent the already dead by the time they re down to half morale.And where is nerf to heartseeker?

Legendary Fleet stance now adds a 10% attack speed buff.zomg !major fix to fleet stance lets trait ourselves to 5 huntsmen yeah right ..you should have made some good changes to this st so that many hunters go huntsmen instead bowsman.10%attack speed buff as if we're melee classes ..yeah im sure those nerfed autoattacks burn your mobs down.


* * *
overall im not surprised but i feel downed to see they didnt bother to fix many stuff we re suffering atm instead they nerfed everything at sight.

fix these please :


Barbed arrow
Enduring precision
Sturdy trap tooltip info something objective
Fleet stance and improved fleet stance bonuses and animation.
Trapper set 4 bonus : PS being wasted by autoattacks
Trapper set diminished dps way too down please make it a bit higher to make hunters choose this way other than full dps. ( make ps cooldown to 15 s instead 30 secs)
Fix hunter sparing utilities ( yes check burglar notes there is a fix regarding burglar class spar abilities unless im mistaken )
Give hunters some chance against a creep zerg.

wasted of focus when being interrupted by a stun or likewise effect even when the skill has succeded but it doesnt apply and you lost the focus used ( eg : Rain of thorns not rooting due to stun and you lose all your focus regarding skill - all other classes suffer from the same mechanic)

[Viceciceror]

arent they also making the lvl 50-60 mobs weaker? , therfor you would need less dps to kill 1? , maybe wait and see what happends in book 7 , then start whining afterwards?:)

[Duvaineth]

Give hunters some chance against a creep zerg.



WTH? :P

"haai, im surrounded by 40 creeps all with a ugly , hungry and mean face preparing to tear all my limbs apart....and i wanna SURVIVE?"

[Sidamos]

some really sound like anyone stole their lollypop...grow up...

I've 4 L60 including a hunter and I can tell you the damage diffrence was
beyond good and evil...That's an adjustment not a nerf...

[MéLAnoR]

WTH? :P

"haai, im surrounded by 40 creeps all with a ugly , hungry and mean face preparing to tear all my limbs apart....and i wanna SURVIVE?"well there are some classes surviving that still :)
anyways you ll be farmed by bas in book 7 good luck with that.
we ll see what happens with pve.

[Scatha the Worm]

Well deserved ;) When I look at it all I only see the OP'ness being nerfed

Hunter are still the most deadly class in this game from range, and what u think is a big nerf are just medium large excepted nerfs to what was too good.

I don't know the magnitude of the nerf but I remember the month of the hunter and I start feeling bad about it. And the LIs global DPS nerf should have been enough. After all, we are a class with no self heals or panic buttons (don't even get me started on the uselessness of DF, it just saves you the repair bill).

arent they also making the lvl 50-60 mobs weaker? , therfor you would need less dps to kill 1? , maybe wait and see what happends in book 7 , then start whining afterwards?:)

Yes, but to counter that there is the global nerf to LIs DPS... so I guess we're back to "if a hunter can solo it, it isn't a challenge for anyone else"

WTH? :P

"haai, im surrounded by 40 creeps all with a ugly , hungry and mean face preparing to tear all my limbs apart....and i wanna SURVIVE?"

I would rather like devs did something real to discourage zergs (they discouraged raids, but the mindless zerg is still there everyday camping Tol-SB-EC). I'm fine with the low survivability if our single target DPS stayed as the absolute best, as our class description states it.

some really sound like anyone stole their lollypop...grow up...

I've 4 L60 including a hunter and I can tell you the damage diffrence was
beyond good and evil...That's an adjustment not a nerf...

Comparing DPS between different classes... riiiight. Hunter is single target DPS nuker. The class role SAYS it shouldn't compare to non-DPS classes. And on sustained DPS (aka power regen build with endurance)... champs get very close and they really shouldn't (or give us their survivability options). RKs will have it a lot better on the balance table with LIs nerf. So, where does that leave us?

In the meantime some things that need help...

- nothing is ever said about fixing the ISB animation.
- nothing is done about the completely useless fleet stance (both normal and legendary suck big time)
- nothing is done about one of our "alleged" primary skills: barbed arrow. It remains unslotted, along with Scourging Blow. If I want dots I'll keep using fire oil: the bleed isn't common damage, It is up most of the time on a sustained combat, and it doesn't cost unreasonable amounts of power. Scourging Blow just sucks because BA sucks...
- Press Onwards needs same cd on improved version than in normal version. Pls.
- More slot bars or just 1 port skill. For the love of god.
- DS cd needs revisiting on the legendary version. It is a 6 trait (5 line + legendary) bonus specializing into main cc role giving up DPS, and we can't chain-mez, even with a 1st age legendary weapon with its most expensive legacy maxed out.

[nightbyday]

Oh come on it's a blattent nerf in response to all those whining about the DPS hunters do in PvP, nothing else. The crap about .. fellowship can't handel and 'aggressive' hunter is just plain simple 'bull' hunter can swap stance and have a skill called beneath notice, seriously not some thing right here. never mind i can get rid of by 'fellowship' bow that i used to reduces threat and do less damage.

I am sad that with this adjustment hunter have not got some thng back in return...

The thing i am REALLY anoyed about is the adjustment to rightoues bow What is that all about? there is no reason for the skill to be touched it wasn't over powered before, i suspect Dev are trying to force hunters in to using one of the other legendieres they have produced which are simply poo on a stick just to justify thier 'cleverness' on invention.

Sorry i simply annoyed over the HUGE nerf, normally i would adjust and probably will but... the whole thing is just 'rank'.

by the way any one notice how the two new 'glory boys' have got a large boost there dps especially runekeeprs. ROFL... i watched a level 54 rune keeper own 5 different level 60 hunters in a row in dolvin view once and only one hunter managed to get the rk to 50% HP and he was a PvP junkie.

Good thing for me i have a captain which will now equal the hunter for DPs and wins hands down on surviveability, also with the boost to minstrels dps etc (and they are getting a HUGE leg up) i might start soloing with that one too for fun.


Summary:-

Hunter is no longer top of the tree for dps it looks like they want 2 or more other classes equal to hunters on single target dps regardless of the fact said classes will win hand down against hunter on multiple target dps. I am sure hunters will trait for high dps and the 'adjustment wont affect the 'better' hunters to much and will 'get over it', however these changes will leave a bad feeling about the game and how is developing for hunters for a few mounths to come.

[Lenin_]

Heh here we are, the crying was loud enough. It is funny to read all the fixing and improvements of other classes and then check hunter changes - typo fixes already working pretty good, some blatant "buff" and couple of nerfs.

Improved Swift Bow - From what I have read, 3rd arrow was reduced to do 65% damage. No fix to the animation. Meh...

Quality of Mercy's multiplier has been reduced - I can live with that, in my opinion it was really pretty high, we will see how much it is nerfed.

The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced to allow for stacking modifiers - I don't really get the second part, but reducing merciful shot dmg output even more...

Concerning the bowmaster trait setup - From what I have read it is reduced by like 5% overall. Well not that big deal, but why developers didn't focus on making other trait setups more viable and actually usable.

Bow of the Righteous growth at 50+ has been slowed. - Hmm personally I don't see this as a very big nerf if the post on US forums is true that it is reduced by 1/3. I can live with that.

Quick Shot has been slightly reduced at 51+ to take into account the larger weapon contributions of post-Moria. - This change I really really don't like. Imho quickshot is perfectly fine and I don't understand why to change it.

Legendary Fleet stance now adds a 10% attack speed buff. - Haahah this is a good one. After I read the nerfs and was a sad panda, this joke made me laugh. If it will add another -10% to inductions that would be different.

Other changes I don't even consider worth mentioning.

I think it's more thanks to the stuff like lore-master and hunter duoing group instances like 16th hall... - all bosses are getting root immunity, that will fix it imho

some really sound like anyone stole their lollypop...grow up...

I've 4 L60 including a hunter and I can tell you the damage diffrence was
beyond good and evil...That's an adjustment not a nerf... - Oh noes. single target dps class was doing much more dmg then healer or crowd controllerl!!!!!!!!


As I see it, the fact that we can kill greendot warg in ettenmoors in few shots is more important then being a viable part of fellowship in instances and raids. Way to go!

What really ****es me off is that the forum trolls and whiners finally get what they asked for "omfg nerfff OP hunterzz".

And some nice quotes from US forums

Single target DPS is our class. Christ, EVERYONE knows that. They do, but they'll cry like children when they're killed by a Hunter in PvMP. Why don't we hear about Guardians that hold aggro too well? Or Minstrels who heal too well? Or Champions who AoE DPS too well? Or Burglars who debuff too well? Or LMs that CC too well? Or Captains that buff too well? Where are their nerfs? Why are there no tears being shed over them? Oh, right. Because they aren't single DPS classes.The perception that hunters deal significantly more burst damage is just that. Even on even-con normals, a decent champion will equal a similarly-skilled/geared hunter, and on anything that lasts longer than ten seconds, they'll pull ahead. The only "advantage" hunters have is the ability to occasionally produce impressive-looking numbers from specific skills under specific circumstances, which invariably makes those without any knowledge of the mechanics of the class believe we're doing insane amounts of damage.

[nonsferatou]

As I see it, the fact that we can kill greendot warg in ettenmoors in few shots is more important then being a viable part of fellowship in instances and raids. Way to go!

What really ****es me off is that the forum trolls and whiners finally get what they asked for "omfg nerfff OP hunterzz".



No mate you could kill any creep with a few shots ,you could one shot(or 2 shot ) most of the times a green ring.....
Just for once you pvers accept there is a freaking pvp in this game too and a lot of ppl plays it and they want to have fun like you ....this nerf needed to be done for pvmp ,dunno how bad it will be for pve but i know for sure you will be needed in groups
To the guy that said that champs shouldnt be closed when hunters used endurance stance ...LOL what you think champs are ....maybe ,lets say maybe dps class......

[Lenin_]

No mate you could kill any creep with a few shots ,you could one shot(or 2 shot ) most of the times a green ring.....
Just for once you pvers acceot there is a freaking pvp in this game too and a lot of ppl plays it and they want to have fun like you ....this nerf needed to be done for pvmp ,dunno how bad it will be for pve but i know for sure you will be needed in groups
To the guy that said that champs shouldnt be closed when hunters used endurance stance ...LOL what you think champs are ....maybe ,lets say maybe dps class......

Well if they managed to get different skills mechanics in ettenmoors (like DF), can't they adjust the changes concerning "one-shotting" creeps only to ettenmoors? Like lower our critical hits or something only when we are in that region.

And yes champs are dps class, but they can take down multiple mobs down much faster then any hunter can. And one of the main differences between champion and hunter should be the aoe vs single target damage output.

[Angartor]

lol
This isnt any news rly. just back to the start of the game again, be good, and be nerfed.
Maybe roll a guardian now and then i attleast got a chance to survive....

but i told you all but no one lisend.

"All this crying from creeps that we one shot em, and they want oure dps down,what wil happen then, no escape skill and no dps,hmm.... "

taken from this post i made some time ago
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325303


and then again like after every update in this game whe have to learn to play oure class again


sad

[nightbyday]

....
Just for once you pvers acceot there is a freaking pvp in this game too ......

One the things that attracted me to this game was the fact Turbin stated was Pvmp would not effect or cause changes to PvE. They way it should be, this is NOT a PvP game.

The two big nerfs coming up are due to whiners in 'PvP'

We cant kill xxxxx class (especially a minstrel) because a Captain can pop in harms way and last stand meaning we can't harm any thing while they harm us... NERF IHW

Hunters kill me before i can get close enougth to own them and they are so weak in melee so i always win. NERF DPS

Don't worry about it you can moan over the next three months minstrels are too hard to kill and buff freeps to much with there 'hots' and ballads. You can also complain that Runekeeps DPS is now to high and coupled with thier ability to stun stun stun with to much self and group healing they are over powered as well.

Dev need to learn not to fix some thing by breaking some thing else ANF stop telling lies.

[nonsferatou]

One the things that attracted me to this game was the fact Turbin stated was Pvmp would not effect or cause changes to PvE. They way it should be, this is NOT a PvP game.

The two big nerfs coming up are due to whiners in 'PvP'

We cant kill xxxxx class (especially a minstrel) because a Captain can pop in harms way and last stand meaning we can't harm any thing while they harm us... NERF IHW

Hunters kill me before i can get close enougth to own them and they are so weak in melee so i always win. NERF DPS

Don't worry about it you can moan over the next three months minstrels are too hard to kill and buff freeps to much with there 'hots' and ballads. You can also complain that Runekeeps DPS is now to high and coupled with thier ability to stun stun stun with to much self and group healing they are over powered as well.

Dev need to learn not to fix some thing by breaking some thing else ANF stop telling lies.
Tbh i have tired to hear this is not a pvp game ,it has pvp as well...if they didnt want to make it pvp game as well why didnt they just leave it only pve and see how much players they would have then...i heard some rumors that hunter killed a high rank wl with meele damage only ,i have been auto attacked for 600 from a hunter on my wl ( almost 8k armour when that happend )...it doesnt sound so few to me so when you get a nerf to damage you wont do a lot of damage.
Creeps have every right to whine after mom ....this is hardly pvp ,a hunter in burn hot and that would hit a debuffed creep could outdps 2 healers ,does that sound fair to you ?
Yes i agree that changes in pve shouldnt affect pvp ,i agree that you need an escape skill( even though you still have df just ooc ) but pls stop this bs about we dont have a role in fl and we are only good for taxi etc....

[MéLAnoR]

Tbh i have tired to hear this is not a pvp game ,it has pvp as well...if they didnt want to make it pvp game as well why didnt they just leave it only pve and see how much players they would have then...i heard some rumors that hunter killed a high rank wl with meele damage only ,i have been auto attacked for 600 from a hunter on my wl ( almost 8k armour when that happend )...it doesnt sound so few to me so when you get a nerf to damage you wont do a lot of damage.
Creeps have every right to whine after mom ....this is hardly pvp ,a hunter in burn hot and that would hit a debuffed creep could outdps 2 healers ,does that sound fair to you ?
Yes i agree that changes in pve shouldnt affect pvp ,i agree that you need an escape skill( even though you still have df just ooc ) but pls stop this bs about we dont have a role in fl and we are only good for taxi etc....Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol
id be shocked if i see a creep whine after book 7 again.
Reavers can devastate more than 2k now with over 8k morale buffed by warleaders at rank 8.
I can guarantee that hunters will be poop in pvp other than just raid assist target .
no solo chance from now on.

[Duvaineth]

and who or what in the name of sauron made you assume that because of these nerfs you are no longer the king of single target dps??

[Llewrend]

Reavers can devastate more than 2k now with over 8k morale buffed by warleaders at rank 8.I have 7,1k morale and can deva crit over 8k from 40m away when buffed by a captain; even my Rain of Arrows can deva crit over 2k buffed.
Grampsaz on STR stance change: "-5% for pwr, threat and dmg iirc" so not much is going to change. :)

I, for one, welcome these changes. I was not under any misconception that hunters are just fine in PvE (or PvMP), we are OP with the right gear and traits.

Hunters are hit specifically but overall DPS is way too high because of IA weapons. However, I don't agree with the tactical classes' DPS increase: we were supposed to specialize in Moria.

PS. I would just like to say calm down everyone, it's not as bad as it sounds. I am currently downloading Bullroarer client so I can see for myself.

[MéLAnoR]

..

PS. I would just like to say calm down everyone, it's not as bad as it sounds. I am currently downloading Bullroarer client so I can see for myself.
i have some questions can you look them into ?
What is the exact numbers of creep anticrit mitigation buff scrolls?
is there any similar scroll on freepside?
About hunter :
what are the exact numbers of MS cit multiplier nerF?
what happened to QS?
any stealth nerf ? especially power requirements?
is the improved fleet stance bonus - to attack duration melee and autoattack only?
Can you post any sceenies of a lvl 59 or 60 legendary bow?

thanks in advance LIew :)

[Doctorfun]

Well this patch notes are the proof that all the devs sent their full load of neurons to vacation on some deserted island.

They screw up all existing classes but one with MoM, especially Guardians and tactical damage classes... how do they fix it? By screwing the only class they didn't manage to before? Great solution. Sounds so WoW!

Its true, at the top, with all the right gear and traits, a hunter could be overpowered. But that's like... 1 in 100? Come on!

[Wishi]

...as foreseen by this weapon.
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q147/W1shmaster/nerf_bat_of_the_hunter.png

[Telebor]

I have to say i welcome the changes also....hunter dps was just too much...we still will be the highest single target dps'rs in the game...we have a number of cc skills now also...hunters have been vastly OP since mom...although the devs could improve the other two legendary trait lines a little

To say hunters have been reduced to taxi drivers is being completely OTT...get a grip.
hunters will always be in demand in pve.

Nighbyday- calling creeps whiners is a bit rich judging by your post....all i see is whine,whine,whine

[Wethrindir]

It seems to me that they made the mobs easier because the other classes where having trouble. but i would rather have it that they just improved the other classes instead of lowering our dps...

[Cillian]

Finally Champs will reign supreme on the battle field, instead of running to a target and finding it already dead due to huntards.

Hunters not OP? Try getting your 7.1k morale WL 1-shotted.

Yeah.. that's not OP :P

[Viceciceror]

Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol
id be shocked if i see a creep whine after book 7 again.
Reavers can devastate more than 2k now with over 8k morale buffed by warleaders at rank 8.
I can guarantee that hunters will be poop in pvp other than just raid assist target .
no solo chance from now on.

creep whine should not affect PvE and it also doesnt affect it , i think the reason hunters got nerfed cause they made other classes useless

[Starlet]

Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol
id be shocked if i see a creep whine after book 7 again.
Reavers can devastate more than 2k now with over 8k morale buffed by warleaders at rank 8.
I can guarantee that hunters will be poop in pvp other than just raid assist target .
no solo chance from now on.
The PvE changes are not because of PvMP imo - It brings balance back into PvE rather than the DPS King attitude, where 5 hunters and a minstrel could fly through all the instances. Now the support classes matter make a difference.

Hunters being poop in PvP? :rolleyes:

[MéLAnoR]

creep whine should not affect PvE and it also doesnt affect it , i think the reason hunters got nerfed cause they made other classes useless
lol creeps whine and excuse throwing ball to pve classes :)

[MéLAnoR]

quoted from us forums :
Some Numbers from the Test Server
Here are some numbers from the test server, and for reference the equivalent numbers from live:

Test Server
-----------
Level 59 3rd Age Crossbow:
DPS: 44.8
Damage: 99-134

Strength Stance (bowmaster):
+25% Damage
+40% Power
+30% Threat

Third swift bow (no stance):
73% weapon damage + 33 damage

Quickshot (no stance):
100% + 25

Bow of R power per shot:
11-13

============================== ======

LIVE SERVER:

The same bow as above:
DPS: 53.3
Damage: 117-160


Strength stance (Bowmaster):
30% Damage
40% Power
40% Threat

Quickshot (no stance):
100% + 25

Bow of R power per shot:
13-18

============================== ======

So overall a 5% reduction for bowmaster, but quite a big DPS cut on the weapon. Also, please note that in the test server, the third shot in Improved Swift Bow went from full damage (i.e. the same as the first two shots) to a significant cut.

The good news: my short time killing NPCs around Lothlorien felt extremely smooth and responsive. Improved Swift Bow fires like a machine gun now, instead of the sluggish animation that's on live. It's hard to explain, but I guess it basically feels like level 50 did in SoA.

I have yet to do any PvMP testing on my hunter, which is the most important aspect to me. If I can get around to it I'll report back (I basically want to see how fast I can DPS a warg, a WL, etc).

--------------------
/mel
apart from huge decrease of legendary weapons it looks ok.
though its stupid that they didnt decrease bowsman trait power sink along with the nerf !
QS : i dont understand what has changed with this skill?
BotR: meh
hunters will be ok in pve and but will definitely see the change in pvmp.
im dissappointed with changes not due to nerf to dps ; they still didnt make trapper and huntsmen esp huntsmen viable.
i was so excited with huntsmen but its still poop.
they should allow some skills on the move ; since you drop the str stance it'd be quite balanced and in pvmp you wouldn see hunters standing all the time to geta kill but instead running and dynamic which would be better for both sides.
/mel

[Laphor]

Was fun while it lasted.

[nightbyday]

I have to say i welcome the changes also....hunter dps was just too much...we still will be the highest single target dps'rs in the game...we have a number of cc skills now also...hunters have been vastly OP since mom...although the devs could improve the other two legendary trait lines a little

To say hunters have been reduced to taxi drivers is being completely OTT...get a grip.
hunters will always be in demand in pve.

Nighbyday- calling creeps whiners is a bit rich judging by your post....all i see is whine,whine,whine

Did i make a personal dig at any one in particular? NO! sso i guess by the fact you had a dig at my post means you feel i have a dig at you?

Originally Posted by MéLAnoR
Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol....

So Melanor is a whiner too?



BTW when i Pvmp i only play creep so i know EXACTLY what players complain about.

[Eorthor]

they nerf dps ok but i dont see any fixes about the class.
we have still many issues and they didnt fix anything jus nerf nerf.
still fleet stance isa joke
trapper set not viable anymore with extra nerf to dps.
Well i read the other class notes but didnt see much nerf to dps.
We even didnt see the stealth nerfs yet.
hope the new book doesnt break the class down to hell.
lets see..

How is it? i think it's one of the best stances we have.
and the trapper set is MORE viable due the Bowmaster being nerfed.

well i told you before i will always keep playing my hunter...but this really makes me cry, biggest nerf since the month of the hunter i guess...congratulations turbine!

and finally we can fulfill our primary class role: porting our group...

by the way don't forget that all weapons' dps decreased too, that will effect the moors as well...

Nerf? you mean balancing is nerf?
the ability to duo level 60 content with a captain/Lore master is not balanced.


Someone at Turbine must have hated the idea of Hunters being somewhat useful for groups for other than taxi duties (taking down monsters).

Wait?
a slight reduction in the bow master set completely makes us useful?
I'm pretty sure pre MoM when there was no buff to strength stance at all we were still best for Single target.

some really sound like anyone stole their lollypop...grow up...

I've 4 L60 including a hunter and I can tell you the damage diffrence was
beyond good and evil...That's an adjustment not a nerf...

Perfect summary. +1 kudos to you!


I would rather like devs did something real to discourage zergs (they discouraged raids, but the mindless zerg is still there everyday camping Tol-SB-EC). I'm fine with the low survivability if our single target DPS stayed as the absolute best, as our class description states it.


Erm?
the ability for us to 1 shot things has NOTHING to do with DPS.
Damage per second, if you kill something before a second passes there's no viable DPS.

One the things that attracted me to this game was the fact Turbin stated was Pvmp would not effect or cause changes to PvE. They way it should be, this is NOT a PvP game.

The two big nerfs coming up are due to whiners in 'PvP'

We cant kill xxxxx class (especially a minstrel) because a Captain can pop in harms way and last stand meaning we can't harm any thing while they harm us... NERF IHW

Hunters kill me before i can get close enougth to own them and they are so weak in melee so i always win. NERF DPS

Don't worry about it you can moan over the next three months minstrels are too hard to kill and buff freeps to much with there 'hots' and ballads. You can also complain that Runekeeps DPS is now to high and coupled with thier ability to stun stun stun with to much self and group healing they are over powered as well.

Dev need to learn not to fix some thing by breaking some thing else ANF stop telling lies.

Read above, the nerf's coming because no 2 classes should be able to duo group content.

you cry and cry because you can no longer 1 shot stuff. the global DPS nerf is to everyone, not just you.

and they lowered merci shots damage when traited, hmmm i wonder why, maybe because we could hit 9,000+ damage?

Theres a difference between nuking and over kill.

The nerf to IHW was obviously going to happen, how can you design effectively challenging group content when a group gains 20 seconds or so of complete invincibility.

Hell, if a group has a burg in there as well, as soon as LS/IHW goes, pop a green conj and you have another 20 seconds of pretty much invicibility.

So don't try to say these changes are due to PVP.

Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol
id be shocked if i see a creep whine after book 7 again.
Reavers can devastate more than 2k now with over 8k morale buffed by warleaders at rank 8.
I can guarantee that hunters will be poop in pvp other than just raid assist target .
no solo chance from now on.

Don't be so dramatic, you can still hit hard as nails, just because they can now doesn't mean you're underpowered.

And about the global DPS nerf.

Did you really not see it coming? honestly?

Lets compare:

(1 handed)
Top end level 40 dps: 21.14

Top end Level 50 dps: 27.5

Top End level 60 DPS: 45.74

So we go from an increase of about 6DPS to nearly 20DPS on a NONE maxed first age weapon.

Now maxed is what? 50.9? more? so that's over 20DPS increase from level 50 to 60. and you honestly never saw this coming?

[Telebor]

Did i make a personal dig at any one in particular? NO! sso i guess by the fact you had a dig at my post means you feel i have a dig at you?

Originally Posted by MéLAnoR
Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol....

So Melanor is a whiner too?



BTW when i Pvmp i only play creep so i know EXACTLY what players complain about.

Your post just stuck out is all.....seeing as you blame creeps whining to get hunters nerfed as the reason they were nerfed...and then you whine about it...and yes Melanor has whined in this post....but its inevitable when a nerf hits a class there will be those who will cry foul.

Bottom line is hunters were overpowered....its a nerf but one for the good of the game imo...and there are other classes out there who got bigger nerfs such as captains.Being able to cut down mobs in no time is no fun (atleast not for me).Hunter dps currently is ridiculous (and this is coming from a hunter).This nerf will not damage the viability of the class one bit in pve.and for the pvp hunters.....well.....lets see if they can adapt their tactics to something other than camouflage----> swift bow---->penetrating shot/merciful shot rinse and repeat.....leg it back to the mincers/capts when they get hit.

[MéLAnoR]

nerfs are good on long shot ; hope they make the other 2 sets viable which i have been looking for.
nope Fed fleet stance sucks atm :P

[tmp]

Creeps whined and lazy devs found the solution to nerf hunters big time and and also nerfed the legendary items to compensate they nerfed the whole world lol
Keep on mind that post-MoM Turbine has the mechanics in place that allow them to change effect of skills etc limited just to Ettens (*cough* DF *cough*) Which means, had these changes been caused by nothing but creep whining and intended to help the creeps, they would've adjusted the skills only in Ettens.

They didn't, which means these changes are caused by current shape of PvE, and intended to affect it. It is --as many point out-- PvE game first and foremost. What happens in Ettens concerns very few, and that includes the devs.

[tmp]

So overall a 5% reduction for bowmaster, but quite a big DPS cut on the weapon.
The DPS cut on the weapons comes together with the reduction of NPC morale though, meaning you can pretty much ignore it as it doesn't change a thing.

I.e. -- leaving hunter changes aside for a second and looking just at the 'dps cut' -- if you killed mob in 10 secs before, you'll still kill it in the same time because although you do less damage now, it takes less damage to kill it.

[Imbavince]

nah this nerf came because of pvmp, I bet ya. The whole uproar was insane in the Community. I'm not going to judge this behaviour, but a buff to other classes would have been enough. A Hunter nerf is just the easy way, that, Melanor, is really true.

Oh and the world effects of Morale/DMG on LIs etc on Mobs, won't count in the Moors. So MPs will get a double buff. Congratulations...buffed big time. I'm actually happy for you, I just can't take big nerfs to my class only that easy...so that makes me sad, naturally.

So I can't fulfill my primary role easily, which I should be able too. But at least you can say that every other class had their fair share of buffs, especially the tactical ones, maybe aside captains, and that's what we really wanted: Adjustments to other classes MP also, not a nerf for us. So Congrats to everybody else too. Your classes will work better now, hope you at least are happy :,-(

[tmp]

Oh and the world effects of Morale/DMG on LIs etc on Mobs, won't count in the Moors. So MPs will get a double buff.
Really? That wasn't in the patch notes, where does that info come from if i can ask..?

Mind you, i'd rather the mobs in Ettens to get the reduced morale than be kept as they are. Keeping them in current shape... while you can see it as a buff to creeps, i see it rather as making these NPCs as annoying to the freeps as they currently are to the creeps. Which is to say, way too annoying.

[Doctorfun]

Well I will of course give it a go and see what is the outcome.

But, if it's as bad as it seems on paper (or screen) then my hunter will sadly be retired. Good I picked my Mini to be my next char to lvl up.

As for those claiming 'my hunter DPs is ridiculous' you seem to forget that you're the exception, not the rule. You did all the instances, got all the best gear, probably a 1st age bow... so sure you're probably overpowered. But that's not true for the majority of hunters, mind you.

[Frenwe]

So I can't fulfill my primary role easily, which I should be able too.

Mind to backup that statement?

I havent seen any good raw data yet, so I cant give a final answer on it. But whilst hunter DPS has certainly gone down noticably, other non-tactical classes DPS has also gone down, and mob morale has gone down. So its not a linear relation that you wont be able to fulfill your primary role anymore.

And LM's and minstrel's damage doesnt matter in a group anyway, they are busy doing other things. RK damage will certainly go up a fair bit, but thats pretty logical, as they had pretty much the worst DPS of ALL classes (you can argue that they are on par with an OPguard and burglars, but the differance aint big between them, and the difference between RK's and hunters is bizarre), and are listed as primary damage dealers.

[Patte]

Hunter

* Improved Swift Bow, third shot has been adjusted to be a bit more in line with a two-second induction skill. Sounds like a nerf
* Quality of Mercy's multiplier has been reduced.explicit one, there's a trait i wont bother slotting anymore
* The overall effectiveness of trait set bonuses for "The Bowmaster" has been reduced, but the Threat aspects and power consumptions have also gone down, enabling aggressive groups to attempt to deal with the Hunter aggro generated by Strength stance and not automatically make it the wrong choice. (Though groups and tanks are still going to have to be on their A game with high end Hunters who choose to be this... aggressive.)explicit nerf
* Barbed Arrow trait now has tooltip text that specifies the DoT pulse increase.meh
* Strength Quick Shot Slow Legacy now properly updates the tooltip of Quickshot while Strength Stance is active.tooltip fix? OMG this makes it sooooo good
* Improved Strength of Earth Morale Regen tooltip has been corrected so that it shows the proper morale regen increase.? this already reads right, but whatever
* Legacy Quick Shot Threat Down tooltip has been updated to reflect that this only works while in Endurance Stance.meh
* Bow of the Righteous growth at 50+ has been slowed.sounds like a nerf to ICPR, cool
* Quick Shot has been slightly reduced at 51+ to take into account the larger weapon contributions of post-Moria.nerf to quick shot, nice
* The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced to allow for stacking modifiers.so, another nerf with some strange explanation
* Legendary Fleet stance now adds a 10% attack speed buff. still useless

So.... We all knew it. We all saw it coming. I just hope (not like we will ever know) that this stupid nerf after showing us the almost perfect shaped class is not about the PvP complaints. That could have easily been dealt with without ruining it for the rest of the game.

So, ISB, MS, QS all have gotten damage nerfs. So I guess LM's and Champs crits will be probably above ours, except for stupid HS which as a damage skill sucks as anything other than a meh opener. If the class wasn't working the intented way, you shouldn't have done this, MAKE IT WORK PROPERLY FROM THE BEGGINING, there was plenty of time.

More rant coming soon.

A hunter whining, gimme a break, ffs.

[MéLAnoR]

A hunter whining, gimme a break, ffs...says the uber champion

[OMWiener]

The PvE changes are not because of PvMP imo - It brings balance back into PvE rather than the DPS King attitude, where 5 hunters and a minstrel could fly through all the instances. Now the support classes matter make a difference.

Hunters being poop in PvP? :rolleyes:

you mean like 5 champs and a mincer could fly through everything in SoA and can still do or like 6 captains can fly through everything?

Ah well, i'm not too bothered about the changes. Quite upset about the raid being postponed though...

[MéLAnoR]

you mean like 5 champs and a mincer could fly through everything in SoA and can still do or like 6 captains can fly through everything?

Ah well, i'm not too bothered about the changes. Quite upset about the raid being postponed though...lol at least people will be forced to play pvmp due to lack of content and got owned by creeps :D

[Doctorfun]

Nobody will force me to PvP :P I'd rather go play *gasp* WoW :twisted:

[Lenin_]

This one is interesting if it will get live :
Originally Posted by Scuba1 http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?p=3442320#post3442320)
my level 60 2nd age xbow went from 59.1 DPS to 48.5 dps. Hope that gives you an idea of what the change is.

[MéLAnoR]

aye lenin overall hunter dps is nerfed by %30 percent ..

[Scatha the Worm]

A hunter whining, gimme a break, ffs.

Oh you've brought new light into this... I've changed my mind. I wonder what would happen if fervour legacy got nerfed, or dire need and bracing attack got smacked

New Raid being postponed? Can someone provide link?

Total amount of DPS decrease is not what worries me, but just that the smoothness of the class goes to hell. Sustained single target DPS is what I want, and adding power nerfs and DPS decreases goes back to having cookie-cutter builds to be able to function. This was already the case in SoA, where to have the upper hand on single target DPS, almost every hunter who looked at game mechanics ended up using exactly the same stuff, minor variations provided. I want the ability to function without being forced to slot certain traits, and use certain equipment. I want options. Nerfs eliminate that, and leave quite a bitter taste in the gameplay.

[MéLAnoR]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/ends_sti/LiveBows.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/ends_sti/BullroarBows.jpg

LEGENDARY NERFINE SYSTEM ! LOL

[tmp]

New Raid being postponed? Can someone provide link?

6-boss raid is pushed back for the book 8 update, book 7 will have a new single boss encounter.

http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3437663&postcount=1
I'd like to clear up one bit of confusion we're seeing now that the patch notes for Volume II: Book 7 are out. Book 7 adds a new 12-man raid, but there is also an instance cluster intended for Book 8 that is well along in development. This includes two 3-man instances, a 6-man instance and a 12-man raid.

These spaces are looking good and we have every intention to make them great! For the next cluster's 12-man, the current plan includes a substantial space with 6 boss encounters. We are holding the instances for Book 8 to give them the polish and attention they deserve.

We know some of you were looking forward to the new instances (so are we!) but we feel the additional wait will be well worth it.

http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3438058&postcount=40

Hey everyone! I just wanted to chime in here and let you all know that we’ve been working very, very hard on a new Raid-capped cluster for you all that was originally slated for Book 7. We want to be able to give you guys a high-polished, well-balanced experience with our instances and Raids and while we realize that a lot of you may be disappointed about us not having a new multi-boss raid, rest assured that it is coming and getting the full once over! We also want to make sure that we are doing our best to address the exploits that many people have complained about. We have come up with some solutions to take care of the problems we are aware of and we want to make sure we bullet-proof those as well.

In Book 7, we are releasing a non-radiance-gated Lair Raid and a new Battle Instance on the borders of Lothlorien! We are also releasing a ton of new content, Lothlorien and other awesome stuff! We realize that a lot of people are waiting for the next big multi-boss raid, we just ask that you wait a couple more months…

Coming soon will be a 6-boss Raid in the Foundations of Stone, a new 6-man in the Flaming Deeps, and two new 3-man instances in Zirak-zigil and the Waterworks! These are all level 60 and the raid will introduce our next high-end class set! In the coming months, we will be releasing more details about this exciting new cluster!

As always, stay tuned and enjoy the beauty of Lothlorien!

[Imbavince]

Really? That wasn't in the patch notes, where does that info come from if i can ask..?

Mind you, i'd rather the mobs in Ettens to get the reduced morale than be kept as they are. Keeping them in current shape... while you can see it as a buff to creeps, i see it rather as making these NPCs as annoying to the freeps as they currently are to the creeps. Which is to say, way too annoying.

well it was n the patch notes...creep morale got buffed by 10%, while resistances and so on goes upe as well you can continue that list...
so the 10% buff counts form the live serversr now, otherwise you wouldn't notice the difference, if you get my meaning. And because creeps and freeps are both lvl 60, the tweaks to lvl adjustment won't apply to them.

there you go...

@ frenwe: yeah i can back that up. Yes overall dmg was nerfed for all classes using weapons for their main dmg source. Still only hunters (correct me if I'm wrong), got direct nerfs to their skills, trait lines, etc.
So since my primary role is single target dmg, this goes down the drain...we'll have to see how much it scales down, but it'll hit hard you can count on that...
Just read the Hunter Patch notes...nerf all the way....
See I do not care whether guards dish out about 2,5k with 3 skills and an auto-attack, seen it more than once, I'm happy for them really. If i have to do the same with induction-based skillst in more time I need a tweak in the right direction though...not now of course but with book 7

oh and fleet stance is utterly useless. -10% attack speed...great. Delete the skill along with irritaitng shot and give me back my moria DMG that's fine...

thanks melanor for the stats...Excuse me If I'm wrong but I've been out on the booze but i juggled around with the numbers a bit and with these stats myresults were:

-20% Li DMG
-10% Crafted Weapons DMG
Now they are quite on par with the crafted...see DPS for details.

Now the only thing that's okay is the fact, taht crafted items will be more valuable and an alternative to an 3rd Age LI at least.

thanks melanor for posting the weapons...

[tmp]

well it was n the patch notes...creep morale got buffed by 10%, while resistances and so on goes upe as well you can continue that list...
so the 10% buff counts form the live serversr now, otherwise you wouldn't notice the difference, if you get my meaning. And because creeps and freeps are both lvl 60, the tweaks to lvl adjustment won't apply to them.
Ahh we just had a misunderstanding then. You meant the creeps while i was talking of NPCs, including the ones in the Ettens (despite what some freeps seem to think, creeps and NPCs aren't actually the same thing :cool:)

In this case yes you'd be correct... the damage reduction of the freep weapons is going to indirectly increase the strength of the creeps, in addition to the 10% morale buff they receive and such.

[nightbyday]

[QUOTE=Telebor;4943301]...there are other classes out there who got bigger nerfs such as captains...QUOTE]

Err apart from captains what other classes got nerfed? and i don't mean the global level 51+ weapons dps reduction across the board that effects all class except spell casters. Besides the change to IHW harms the fellowship NOT the Captain directly in fact as the captain is taking less damage theoreticlally it benefits the captain.

Now, you say hunters were nerfed for good reason, pray tell what is that?

your quoted reason :- (... Hunter dps currently is ridiculous (and this is coming from a hunter).This nerf will not damage the viability of the class one bit in pve.and for the pvp hunters.....well.....lets see if they can adapt their tactics to something other than camouflage----> swift bow---->penetrating shot/merciful shot rinse and repeat.....leg it back to the mincers/capts when they get hit...) is PvP reason!

Whilst i agree the change will not effect the Hunter's viability; apart from dropping them down the dps league, also the lowering of 'like to have in a fellowship' (if indeed DPS boost from Rks brings them in line with a hunter) and not being able to carve through level 60 orcs making them the perfect 'farmers' class. The reason given by your self is a PvP reason thus thats PvP Effecting a change in PvE which is my main grumble NOT WHINE (or 'debate which both yourself and myself have right to in posts on forums like this) which they stated would never be the case.

Of course if the reason was That Hunters DPS was so insane and over powered you just needed a healer and 5 hunters for a any six man instance to garauntee success and put said instance on easy farm hard mode i could understand (Hmmmm 8 hunters, 2 minstrels, 2 Lms and a BIG squid?) Or if it was the case that content was to easy across the board for all classes to easily solo through (which was not the case) so a weapons nerf was needed, This bit i can see is a correct 'adustment or nerf as combining the 'weakening' of NPC and the lowering of main weapon damage out put, balances the difference of potential dps between classes a bit more. Yes a justifiable reason if game design wise thats what DEV intended.

However the DPS drop off (predicted to be between 20-30%) over all for hunters is just plain wrong and every critic when asked to give a perfect example as to a reason for dps nerf either goes for the 'well they one shot creeps in the perfect situation...' Or 'if you had all xxxxxxx (you could insert RK here if you like or champ or...) class and a healer you would pwn yyyyyyy instance.

So am sorry your 'touche' post back has given a PvP reason for Hunter DPS nerf, please come up a justifiable and indeed understandable PvE reason. Of course the final proof and or out come will be 'launch day' and a few months after untill then everyone has a right to 'air their views' not that it will change any thing ;p

[samurai1]

Hunters nerf was coming because of all the other jealous classes who instead of playing there own roles correctly decided to whine about hunters all over the forums was gonna start a second acount i will be def holding out on that cant do nothing about this one as it is a founders shame very sad hunters always get screwed

[Telebor]

Well I will of course give it a go and see what is the outcome.

But, if it's as bad as it seems on paper (or screen) then my hunter will sadly be retired. Good I picked my Mini to be my next char to lvl up.

As for those claiming 'my hunter DPs is ridiculous' you seem to forget that you're the exception, not the rule. You did all the instances, got all the best gear, probably a 1st age bow... so sure you're probably overpowered. But that's not true for the majority of hunters, mind you.

I use a lvl 59 3rd age bow with common damage and have 4 of the 6 instance radiance pieces.my agility is at about 525 if that helps.......


Nightbyday - I dont know why you think my post is based on pvp reasons....i only once mentioned pvp at the very end of my post.You seem to have your reply made up before you even read my post.My feelings on the matter are based on both pve and pvp...i will wait and see what book 7 brings....i do think dps should be nerfed slightly (however 30% seems excessive to me).....to counter that i would like to see the other 2 legendary trait sets get a buff of sorts...dont forget all of the cc a hunter now possesses....hunters are good for more than just dps.

[azreldarg]

Guys, please..stop moaning on these threads and do something more constructive..

If you all believe the nerf was to do with PvMP then get all of your kins who go to Ettens to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE..Stay away from there and let the creeps play with themselves and then you will soon see creeps crying that there is no-one to kill please give the DPS back to the hunters.

Pesrsonally i dont think you will do it, you will just keep maoning here and you really think the Devs will look here and say...oooppps i think we made a mistake.

What we need is for the whole community to stop playing and THEN when Turbine's Beancounters say .."boss were short on cash..THEN maybe they will do something about it.

But i guess your all just windbags and will carry on as usual and let the big corporation take your money whilst letting them shaft you up the a**e.

[Duvaineth]

so after the watcher had been 6 manned by a party consisted by 3 hunters that did all the dmg to the healing tents and the watcher itself...

You still wonder why you got nerfed? :p

[OMWiener]

so after the watcher had been 6 manned by a party consisted by 3 hunters that did all the dmg to the healing tents and the watcher itself...

You still wonder why you got nerfed? :p

killing the entire kitchen in FG with 3 champs is just as impressive :P

Every class has their strength. Ours is single target ranged damage. Some guy in the US said it best:
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3441481&postcount=90

The hunter changes just like the nerf to IHW are a result of horrible content design. The classes themselves are pretty nice and mostly well rounded. When content is designed for only one strategy and class strength in mind (in Moria this is DPS, in SoA it was more CC) then classes that shine in that area will stand out as OP. The fact that Turbine didn't design content with multiple avenues for success or that leaves out some classes strengths altogether (CC is trivialized in Moria) then is just plain poor content design. Tweaking, buffing, and nerfing classes based on poor content is poor development and asking for trouble down the road.

So now with these damage output reductions we'll have a class with no consistent self heal (except the legendary on a 20 minute coooldown traited) doing the same kind of damage as the tactical healing classes. My LM and minstrel love this, but it is a far cry from anything approaching balance.

The problem with DPS-classes is that every other class out there can do it as well. I4m sure ministrels wouldn't be happy if every other class out there could heal and the different would only be 100-300 morale. I'm sure the captains wouldn't be happy if every class out there could buff, but for +30 to all stats, etc...So in an effort to distinguish these "dps" classes from the others you have three options (that i can think off):

1) get rid of dps classes. Let all other classes do a decent amount of dps besides their primary role
2) buff their dps considerably (like in MoM) so the difference with other classes is there.
3) Give them other primary roles (similar to option 1 really)

The reason why content in MoM favors dps is not because dps is so high, but because of poor design. If they design content so that all "roles" are sorta needed, then bringing 5 hunters isn't an option anymore, is it? Why was the watcher 6 manned=poor design.

[Imbavince]

just found this on the Hunter-US-Forums...It was posted by a R8 Stalker...

Report from the Ettenmoors:

Disclaimer: I am not a great solo hunter, and definitely far from the best under any circumstances in the moors.

Note: This is all with bowmaster trait line.

1v1 v. rank 5 Defilier:

This was a test, and the defilier only healed himself and did not fight back. I was unable to DPS through the healing, even when using Burn Hot, opening with Heart Seeker, etc.

1v1 v. various BAs:

When they hit the evade buff, it's over. A test run with no burn hot, no evade buff, just straight DPS'ing it out normally, I was able to win a fight against a morale build BA with about 100 morale left of my own.

1v1 v. spiders:

Difficult! I wasn't able to win any of these fights (but I am also a terrible soloer as a hunter). DPS test against a spider (when he didn't fight back) seemed similar to book 14. The spider was not a morale build.

I still want to test DPS against a higher rank WL while they heal. So, anyway, this is just a very preliminary report from an averagely geared hunter.

[Scatha the Worm]

Guys, please..stop moaning on these threads and do something more constructive..
The constructive thing, as I see it, is to express our thoughts on such nerf so it doesn't make it in such a bad shape to live. Nerf to DPS? already there with LIs nerf. Nerf ISB? I can live with it, but I won't like it after having used it. Nerf MS? Not a good sustained DPS skill, so whatever. Nerf to QS? This one I don't accept. Nerf to BotR? Has nothing to do with DPS, other than gimping our builds. Pls, I like having options, and I see having to go all around top ICPR gear again.

If you all believe the nerf was to do with PvMP then get all of your kins who go to Ettens to GET THE HELL OUT OF DODGE..Stay away from there and let the creeps play with themselves and then you will soon see creeps crying that there is no-one to kill please give the DPS back to the hunters.
I played a lot of creep these days, I suffer the hunters. But truth be told it is not their fault. In who's head was it right to LOWER creep morale when DOUBLING freep DPS, I don't know, but the problem was design of PvP, not customers doing what they can do. People will still be going to PvP, and they should, because it's one of the things we pay for.

Pesrsonally i dont think you will do it, you will just keep maoning here and you really think the Devs will look here and say...oooppps i think we made a mistake.
the CM team at least does read the boards. That we get a reply is another thing. On the other hand if nobody posted anything it gives the impression that we're ok with it. And we're not.

What we need is for the whole community to stop playing and THEN when Turbine's Beancounters say .."boss were short on cash..THEN maybe they will do something about it.
I don't know for sure the mechanics behind the design of the game, but I'm sure it has something to do with trying to keep all the customers happy. They failed horribly at PvP on MoM release. Now they are nerfing all non-tactical DPS. I for one won't be happy if RKs are on par with hunters, and not because it will be harder to get into groups (which it will, but I don't do PUGs anymore), but because the uniqueness of the class is gone.

But i guess your all just windbags and will carry on as usual and let the big corporation take your money whilst letting them shaft you up the a**e.
Really clever comment. It is a game and I will still enjoy it, on a theme I really like. That doesn't mean I can't try to express my opinion on some undesirable changes, hoping it helps in the statistics of the forums for the decision on the next patch to bullroarer.

[Tangaar]

i dont have a hunter.But i have a creep.Plz dont moan much mates :/i should be fixed.

[Darzil]

I can't be surprised by the nerfs, the weapon one was always likely, and the 50% increase in damage on swift shot was always extreme.

The way things are on live now, my guardian takes more damage in a 2 vs 1 fight in Library of Steel starting in melee range than my hunter took in a 2 vs 1 fight in Library of Steel starting in melee range. So hunter wins on dps and on survivability solo. I'd rather Hunter wins on dps and Guardian on survivability.

Turbine still have a long way to go to get back to SoA balance where this was true.

Darzil

[OMWiener]

I agree that the balance was off and i don't really mind the LI dps drop. But imo there were other viable options to deal with this imbalance besides nerfing some great hunter skills.

Anyway i don't expect things to change anyway, gonna have to adapt. I'll be glad to see less people whining about hunters though :)

[MéLAnoR]

..

Anyway i don't expect things to change anyway, gonna have to adapt. I'll be glad to see less people whining about hunters though :)I second that ; will be glad to see less whiner morons.

[Kuittaa]

Nerf... Yes, but not that bad one. I'll still be happy to play my huntress and I'm totally positive she can do her roles in a fellowship as well as before. If an encounter takes 10 seconds longer because of drop of dps so what. Aggro management has never been too much of a problem, although now it might take two more shots to get a mob away from the minstrel.

I have been at Ettens only once after Moria on huntress and it was ridiculous -- only good the situation is getting improved.

Dps will still be better than in SoA, compared to the changes to mob morale values. And I still have my all lovely huntress CC-skills to toy around when soloing (and even while in a FS).

Definitely not worth all the doom & gloom. Hunters will still be a great class to play.

[Sidamos]

Played 2 hours on the beta server - guardian tho to see how that changed. But running
around with 2 hunters etc.

Tbh either back it up the complaining or stop making wrong assumptions. From just
watching what the hunters were doing I can't say that really looked diffrent.

Except the 3rd arrow of Swiftbow all other changes are pretty small. For MS if you are
around solo if a MS crits the mob is dead. Doesn't matter if you have the +100% crit
multiplier trait slotted or not. (in B7 50%). Even in bossfights the impact of MS is rather
small at all. I'm pretty sure that this change was purely made due to PvMP.

[Silmahad]

I don't mind the nerf of weapon dps, I can live with that, although it's a big hit. I can even live with the 5% damage loss from the BM line.

I am upset about touching the following skills/traits:

-the ISB "animation fix" that concludes in a damage nerfe of the third shot
-WHY TO THE HELL do they touch QS?
-Why nerfing BoR?
-Is it an error from Turbine, that of the promised "less damage but also less powercosts and threat" of the BM line, only the "less damage and less threat" made it onto the test server?


I can even live with the nerfe to MS, cos it had less influence on PvE (6 Focus, I do even consider this as a PvM skill), but I do not understand the reason of these nerfes, especially the nerfes for power consumption/regeneration, while Fleet Stance and Barbed Arrow still remains unFIXED (untouched would be the wrong word).

[MéLAnoR]

guys btw if you have a rullroarer account please bug this :
the change to bowsman set is by dps %5 but they didnt update the reduced %5 power requirement as it was announced on patch notes.Still pow requirement is told %40 where as the dps is reduced by %5.

[Sidamos]

That's already reported by many ppl. However it could also just be a typo.

[nightbyday]

If people think hunters are complaining now wait until after patch :p

I have been trawlling different threads and the feeling that have been generated as summary would be people are bemused at the xp curve, disappointed by the content addition, delighted with the a tactical classes (casters) at thier dps increase and % wise compared to other classes due to global weapon DPS 'nerf', Annoyed over the IHW change, frustrated over the hunter adjustment (more so if your a hunter less if your not). The two changes (capt hnt) on explination of understanding in posts always revolves around the pointer to PvMP the finally unsupprused at some changes happening or not happening regarding some classes.

I think from a hunter point of view the worry is, (a) soloing a like for like level melee mob will take half thier hp and 1/4 of there power to do so (a power issue) ,(b) they will start to out dpsed by classes like Runekeeper and LM who can bring a lot more to a fellowship, (c) the effect of PvMP.

I have given it some thought over these worries, (a) soloing wise might just requier the need to use some CC (bard, trap etc) on each mob which is of concern because previously CC would be used when engaging two mobs or more. That would mean engaging two mobs or more will be hard as the CC component will have already been used. Are hunter being forced towards a more CC roll and trait system? (b) is a real concern if it turns out that hunters have equals to single target dps thier popularity for fellowships will plummet, on the whole no one looks at hunter as a CC class (including some hunters i have fellowed with, an example being a hunter who thought it impossiable for 2 hunters to keep one troll CC'ed in the forges), ergo no dps, they have no other role equals no team. Couple that with difficulties in soloing a lot of hunters will be shelved (if i am honest i will be playing my captain and minstrel more but for other reasons). (c) regarding Hunters and PvMP some thing needed to be done and possiably these chages were the wrong thing to do. A simple adjustment of incoming ranged damage mitigation for Creeps might have been better.

The 'acid test' will be after launch for me it will be soloing the steel libary instance. I could solo that in under 7mins at a rush and during that time found that i was never in danger of dying or failing but could run into power issues, normally allowing for a bit of regeneration between mobs said instance would never take me longer than 12 mins. Instances like the train hall i would just engage 3-4 mobs max at a time (any more i could potentially die). Compare the current to my captain and minstrel. Minstrel wise it was very easy to fail the libary as if cool downs were up on some skills i could not kill summoners, mobs and grims quick enough thus failed. My captain was equal to my hunter but engaged mobs 2-3 at a time in the libary as opposed to one at a time on my huneter. In the training hall my captain would just run in aggro the 1st part and main hall killing all, aggro left and right in turn killing all.. then to boss and out (alot quicker and she is no AOE specialist).

So you see i feel Hunter wise thing swill be harder, No change for Captain (except on a certain fellowship support skill) and easiers for my minstrel. having that conclussiobn equals what turbine are suggesting they are doing. Bringing balance to class and 'blurring' the roles between classes more.



Now here is the crux of it all what do hunters plan to do? stay the same set up or change. If it is change change what? power set up, cc set up, mititgation, acs, resistance etc etc. There is a lot to think about. If indeed they start to run into power issues Will is need (where has all the will gone for hunters) and maybe fate (icpr), if hunters have to face the enemy toe to toe the will need to think about CC tactics for every mob not just multiples and or mitgations or absorbtion (surviveability).

Thats the problem really the worry and concerns. Maybe after patch Hunters find nothing to worry about and adjust fine or maybe after patch things will be so bad 'complaining will increase'.

[Imbavince]

Yep, that about sums it up I guess...I guess the uproar comes after the patch, since most people don't yet know what will happen.

So other classes are getting buffed, that really is a cool change. I actually enjoy it when people are happy with their class, even if they use their class to stealth-gank me in the moors ;-)
I just bloody well hate that nerfing hunters is a cheap and easy way of balancing anything in the game. Not much thought went into this.
I'd really love to have a couple of words with DangerDan, our DEV. Maybe he sees something in the hunter class that we have not seen yet, or maybe he's always sick when class changes are to be discussed. :-)

[MéLAnoR]

..
I'd really love to have a couple of words with DangerDan, our DEV. Maybe he sees something in the hunter class that we have not seen yet, or maybe he's always sick when class changes are to be discussed. :-)He has never been on Eu forums and only very few times in Us forums so ..
TALK IN YOUR DREAMS :D
If he ever comes to our hunter forums ill break a teeth :p

btw .. after book 7 hits and i test the class i ll make a new thread to discuss how to buff and make usefull other two sets tof and Hm.
imo the dps loss in ToF will be too severe after book 7 which will made hunters never ever touch it.
HM is a joke already.

[NanGalad]

Excuse my butting in but I keep coming back to the comment "we all knew it was coming". For me this says it all. In your hearts you recognised that the Hunter class was overpowered and knew the nerf was coming.

Yes PvP was the most obvious sight of it, but in PvE instances I have seen hunters tanking because they have the morale to do it and even in endurance stance will take the aggro. This does not speak to me of balance.

Worse, it encourages poor gameplay. Hunters are not tanks and players should not ever be under the impression that they can tank (giving hunters a tanking role in the Watcher fight was a bad move by the devs encouraging this). By contrast, IF hunters can tank then again something is seriously wrong.

Hunters should be playing their class with reference to the roles of other classes in the group rather than dpsing simply because they can do lots of damage and have the morale to get away with it. Time to get out endurance stance and watch your aggro, methinks.

[OMWiener]

Excuse my butting in but I keep coming back to the comment "we all knew it was coming". For me this says it all. In your hearts you recognised that the Hunter class was overpowered and knew the nerf was coming.

Yes PvP was the most obvious sight of it, but in PvE instances I have seen hunters tanking because they have the morale to do it and even in endurance stance will take the aggro. This does not speak to me of balance.

Worse, it encourages poor gameplay. Hunters are not tanks and players should not ever be under the impression that they can tank (giving hunters a tanking role in the Watcher fight was a bad move by the devs encouraging this). By contrast, IF hunters can tank then again something is seriously wrong.

Hunters should be playing their class with reference to the roles of other classes in the group rather than dpsing simply because they can do lots of damage and have the morale to get away with it. Time to get out endurance stance and watch your aggro, methinks.

You are correct, we all saw it coming but were we overpowered in our dps department? No, we were "overpowered' because the content was badly designed. Is it our fault a lot of bosses can be kited? Is it our fault guardians threat and mitigations are borked? All this had nothing to do with our dps.

Like i said, the fact is that every other class out there can dps and as such the gap must be big enough. What would you say if *every* class could riddle but only for 10 sec? What would you say if every class could start a FM but on longer CD? Heck, you would call for clearer class definitions as well. Hunter is dps and he should excell at it by far, since every other class can bring dps to the table as well. People don't seem to get that. Champions didn't have their skills touched, while they were at the same dps level we were. Heck their tanking abilities could be called overpowered as well, but in fact it's the content and the bad guardian design that allows them to tank (even in fervour ffs^^)

If you don't want content trivialised by 5 hunters, make sure other classes are needed as well.

[Silmahad]

Yes PvP was the most obvious sight of it, but in PvE instances I have seen hunters tanking because they have the morale to do it and even in endurance stance will take the aggro. This does not speak to me of balance.

Worse, it encourages poor gameplay. Hunters are not tanks and players should not ever be under the impression that they can tank (giving hunters a tanking role in the Watcher fight was a bad move by the devs encouraging this). By contrast, IF hunters can tank then again something is seriously wrong.

The problem has 2 sides: drawing aggro because of the damage inflicted or because of the nerfed thread generation of guardians (Cry resists because of high tactical resist rate of mobs and B/P/E nerf -> nerf of reactive skills -> nerf of thread generation).

How will the nerf change this? We keep our morale, we still keep the loads of might on items to parry, we still have medium armor, but mob morale will go down and even damage output of mobs in PvE will eventually be scaled down a bit. I expect a lot more hunter tanks in future, because there is still no punishment for bad play...so leave those trolls at the Khazad Dum Smith Endboss for me...I guess we will still be able to draw aggro in Strength Stance from a guardian if we only want to.

But your are right, good reason to nerf our damage in S:S even further and our mitigation too, only because of some people cannot play their class and press the right Stance button. Sorry to dissapoint you, but I in every fellowship I was in S:E in the beginning and maybe I switched to S:P further in a Boss fight, or even S:S in the end IF I KNEW that the tank had loads of time to build up aggro while I was performing other tasks like burning down adds (in S:S only to mention this...and the minstrel was indeed very happy about this). The hunters I know, were playing around with the stances during a Boss fight and beneath notice, there was never something like S:S the whole fight, with the exception I had to handle adds.

Your observations about the S:S hunters I guess are about the times where noble mark gave 40 times the intended thread. These time are over and I do not mind this.

[NanGalad]

You are correct, we all saw it coming but were we overpowered in our dps department? No, we were "overpowered' because the content was badly designed. Is it our fault a lot of bosses can be kited? Is it our fault guardians threat and mitigations are borked? All this had nothing to do with our dps.

I agree. Threat levels were incredibly badly done even with one alleged 'hotfix'. More is clearly needed and hopefully will come in Book 7. BUT this does not mean that your dps was not overpowered as well. Part of the problem is as I see it that you also have far too much morale through instance jewellery simply being very very good for hunters - agility, ranged crit, morale etc. We have had this discussion over vent.

Sorry, but leaving aside the Watcher (which we can all agree is just badly thought out full stop), hunters should not have so much morale to even think that they can go toe to toe with a boss and kite. It's the tank's role to well 'tank' such bosses. Those not wearing heavy armour should not be able to even come close, Even my burglar with full evade buff and an official 'off tanking' role (thx devs!) should only be able to tank in an oh **** circumstance not as a matter of course. And you still have 500 morale more than my fully kitted out burglar!

Like i said, the fact is that every other class out there can dps and as such the gap must be big enough. What would you say if *every* class could riddle but only for 10 sec? What would you say if every class could start a FM but on longer CD? Heck, you would call for clearer class definitions as well. Hunter is dps and he should excell at it by far, since every other class can bring dps to the table as well. People don't seem to get that. Champions didn't have their skills touched, while they were at the same dps level we were. Heck their tanking abilities could be called overpowered as well, but in fact it's the content and the bad guardian design that allows them to tank (even in fervour ffs^^)

If you don't want content trivialised by 5 hunters, make sure other classes are needed as well.

Again I agree with your last point. But as for the rest, I still see Hunters being the single target dps add in the group just like in SOA and even allowing for both the worldwide dps nerf and the nerf on some hunter skills in particular. Not saying champs should be immune to some criticism either - esp seeing some of the big numbers playing my champ over the w/e. My dps specced burg could not even come close.

As for every class being able to riddle, didn't hunters just get a 10 second mezz as well... And all your root skills. You already have more powerfull cc than a cc class. :( While the massive dps was meaning champs and hunters started more conjunctions than a burglar - which BTW is immensely annoying when you are trying to pull off a conjunction at the right time - think balrog 5 minute anti-CJ buff for example.

[Armir]

LOL i have to say greatest thread ever!

Hunters have had easy mode since mom and now its time to address it and they whine, not all, but some. Blame PvP'rs? Not a PvP game? Well thats just untrue.

So you cant destroy a mob/creep in a split second anymore? Boo-hoo. Will you be out DPS'd by other classes? No ofc not, you will still have the highest single target DPS and anyone who says "But LM's!!!!! But RK's!!!! They bring more to the group and out DPS, so does a captain!!!" LOL!! LM's will never out DPS hunters, burst DPS maybe for 20s, but then its long CD's, captain again maybe but its all about lucky crits there, RK's again, utter rubbish. And all those 3 classes in a group will NOT BE TRAITED FOR DMG and presumably following their roles. Odd that.

Do ppl have to throw up numbers to remind you of your DPS? between 1.5k and 8k MS?? 2k-12K HS? 1.2k-3k SB? 400-1.8k pen shot? Or even up to 2k on a aoe skill? I;m sorry what? a aoe skill on a single target dps class doing that crazy dmg? pffttt

Game design some ppl say, perhaps but i find it less plausible than you being OP.

PvP whining? Well ofc, high ranked creeps have spent the entire game ranking to be all of a sudden smashed to pieces by a unranked hunter with a bow full of bombs? And in return creeps can heal 1/3rd of a swift bow? Or disappear only to be still shot and die? Or bubble a corpse? Or return such mighty DPS with err well not much really, or resist such a torrent of dmg with err 8% resist rate, hmmm. OR To be mez'd by the hunter. Err wait. Mez'd by the hunter? yep, fear'd by the hunter, trapped by the hunter, tracked by the hunter, rooted by the hunter, slow'd by the hunter.

See its not the hunters that annoy me, i know they are a DPS class and should be feared and treated as so. Or the fact that they are so far beyond normal DPS its like they are one shotters. Personally i agree with these changes, and in response to the hunters who agree you have been op'd, bravo, you have my respect. To those who would profess doom and gloom and seek to blame every other possible person/design/class/group for this. I say 2 things. LOL and shush ur face.

see you in the moors.

[Silmahad]

LOL i have to say greatest thread ever!

Hunters have had easy mode since mom and now its time to address it and they whine, not all, but some. Blame PvP'rs? Not a PvP game? Well thats just untrue.

So you cant destroy a mob/creep in a split second anymore? Boo-hoo. Will you be out DPS'd by other classes? No ofc not, you will still have the highest single target DPS and anyone who says "But LM's!!!!! But RK's!!!! They bring more to the group and out DPS, so does a captain!!!" LOL!! LM's will never out DPS hunters, burst DPS maybe for 20s, but then its long CD's, captain again maybe but its all about lucky crits there, RK's again, utter rubbish. And all those 3 classes in a group will NOT BE TRAITED FOR DMG and presumably following their roles. Odd that.

Do ppl have to throw up numbers to remind you of your DPS? between 1.5k and 8k MS?? 2k-12K HS? 1.2k-3k SB? 400-1.8k pen shot? Or even up to 2k on a aoe skill? I;m sorry what? a aoe skill on a single target dps class doing that crazy dmg? pffttt

Game design some ppl say, perhaps but i find it less plausible than you being OP.

PvP whining? Well ofc, high ranked creeps have spent the entire game ranking to be all of a sudden smashed to pieces by a unranked hunter with a bow full of bombs? And in return creeps can heal 1/3rd of a swift bow? Or disappear only to be still shot and die? Or bubble a corpse? Or return such mighty DPS with err well not much really, or resist such a torrent of dmg with err 8% resist rate, hmmm. OR To be mez'd by the hunter. Err wait. Mez'd by the hunter? yep, fear'd by the hunter, trapped by the hunter, tracked by the hunter, rooted by the hunter, slow'd by the hunter.

See its not the hunters that annoy me, i know they are a DPS class and should be feared and treated as so. Or the fact that they are so far beyond normal DPS its like they are one shotters. Personally i agree with these changes, and in response to the hunters who agree you have been op'd, bravo, you have my respect. To those who would profess doom and gloom and seek to blame every other possible person/design/class/group for this. I say 2 things. LOL and shush ur face.

see you in the moors.

Leave this board and die please.

It's not about the nerf itself, I expected that, it's the method they chose to do it.

Oh and if I haven't mentioned it already...BAN THAT **** PVM OUT OF THIS GAME !

[OMWiener]

As for every class being able to riddle, didn't hunters just get a 10 second mezz as well... And all your root skills. You already have more powerfull cc than a cc class. :( While the massive dps was meaning champs and hunters started more conjunctions than a burglar - which BTW is immensely annoying when you are trying to pull off a conjunction at the right time - think balrog 5 minute anti-CJ buff for example.

Aye but not *every* class has a mezz :P

Our cc combined with the dps was too powerfull indeed, but that doesn't justify a nerf to our dps. The fact that is infuriating me is not the fact that we were nerfed, but we were nerfed for the wrong reasons. We can tank? give light armour +increase boss dps. We kill creeps too fast? give more ranged mitigation, etc...

[OMWiener]

LOL i have to say greatest thread ever!

Hunters have had easy mode since mom and now its time to address it and they whine, not all, but some. Blame PvP'rs? Not a PvP game? Well thats just untrue.

So you cant destroy a mob/creep in a split second anymore? Boo-hoo. Will you be out DPS'd by other classes? No ofc not, you will still have the highest single target DPS and anyone who says "But LM's!!!!! But RK's!!!! They bring more to the group and out DPS, so does a captain!!!" LOL!! LM's will never out DPS hunters, burst DPS maybe for 20s, but then its long CD's, captain again maybe but its all about lucky crits there, RK's again, utter rubbish. And all those 3 classes in a group will NOT BE TRAITED FOR DMG and presumably following their roles. Odd that.

Do ppl have to throw up numbers to remind you of your DPS? between 1.5k and 8k MS?? 2k-12K HS? 1.2k-3k SB? 400-1.8k pen shot? Or even up to 2k on a aoe skill? I;m sorry what? a aoe skill on a single target dps class doing that crazy dmg? pffttt

Game design some ppl say, perhaps but i find it less plausible than you being OP.

PvP whining? Well ofc, high ranked creeps have spent the entire game ranking to be all of a sudden smashed to pieces by a unranked hunter with a bow full of bombs? And in return creeps can heal 1/3rd of a swift bow? Or disappear only to be still shot and die? Or bubble a corpse? Or return such mighty DPS with err well not much really, or resist such a torrent of dmg with err 8% resist rate, hmmm. OR To be mez'd by the hunter. Err wait. Mez'd by the hunter? yep, fear'd by the hunter, trapped by the hunter, tracked by the hunter, rooted by the hunter, slow'd by the hunter.

See its not the hunters that annoy me, i know they are a DPS class and should be feared and treated as so. Or the fact that they are so far beyond normal DPS its like they are one shotters. Personally i agree with these changes, and in response to the hunters who agree you have been op'd, bravo, you have my respect. To those who would profess doom and gloom and seek to blame every other possible person/design/class/group for this. I say 2 things. LOL and shush ur face.

see you in the moors.

Buff ranged mitigations on creeps. nuff said. You think these changes will kill hunters in the moors? Put 5 hunters together and they will still be very leathel (as was the case in SoA)

[NanGalad]

It's not about the nerf itself, I expected that, it's the method they chose to do it.

Err... how else do you do a dps nerf for a specific class except by nerfing specific class skills?

As for your comments about PvMP it was actually quite amusing for my warg. Find a hunter alone and they were toast, massive dps or not. And there were always plenty of candidates, most of them utterly clueless about pvp! But it wasn't fun for other classes. Just like in fact massive hunter dps wasn't fun for other classes in PvE seeing their contribution to the group being ignored? "Shall we take X?" "No, just get a hunter in. All we need is dps."

[MéLAnoR]

LOL i have to say greatest thread ever!

Hunters have had easy mode since mom and now its time to address it and they whine, not all, but some. Blame PvP'rs? Not a PvP game? Well thats just untrue.

So you cant destroy a mob/creep in a split second anymore? Boo-hoo. Will you be out DPS'd by other classes? No ofc not, you will still have the highest single target DPS and anyone who says "But LM's!!!!! But RK's!!!! They bring more to the group and out DPS, so does a captain!!!" LOL!! LM's will never out DPS hunters, burst DPS maybe for 20s, but then its long CD's, captain again maybe but its all about lucky crits there, RK's again, utter rubbish. And all those 3 classes in a group will NOT BE TRAITED FOR DMG and presumably following their roles. Odd that.

Do ppl have to throw up numbers to remind you of your DPS? between 1.5k and 8k MS?? 2k-12K HS? 1.2k-3k SB? 400-1.8k pen shot? Or even up to 2k on a aoe skill? I;m sorry what? a aoe skill on a single target dps class doing that crazy dmg? pffttt

Game design some ppl say, perhaps but i find it less plausible than you being OP.

PvP whining? Well ofc, high ranked creeps have spent the entire game ranking to be all of a sudden smashed to pieces by a unranked hunter with a bow full of bombs? And in return creeps can heal 1/3rd of a swift bow? Or disappear only to be still shot and die? Or bubble a corpse? Or return such mighty DPS with err well not much really, or resist such a torrent of dmg with err 8% resist rate, hmmm. OR To be mez'd by the hunter. Err wait. Mez'd by the hunter? yep, fear'd by the hunter, trapped by the hunter, tracked by the hunter, rooted by the hunter, slow'd by the hunter.

See its not the hunters that annoy me, i know they are a DPS class and should be feared and treated as so. Or the fact that they are so far beyond normal DPS its like they are one shotters. Personally i agree with these changes, and in response to the hunters who agree you have been op'd, bravo, you have my respect. To those who would profess doom and gloom and seek to blame every other possible person/design/class/group for this. I say 2 things. LOL and shush ur face.

see you in the moors.lol somebody is selfjoying with his hands :clap:

[Imbavince]

just want to add: We all saw the nerf coming because there alsways has been a nerf coming straight towards us...yes it is our personal waterloo, except that waterloo only happened once...;-)

and well why nerf dps? why not nerf our cc? heck i Don't need irritating shot, you could get rid of it and i would not mind (maybe a little bit), I chose a hunter to put out huge dps on One Target...I don not need to mezz. roots and fears really are okay...while i still believe the BM traitline needed to be nerfed because of the enormous threat lvl...

and dps nerfs are also achieved by adding + ranged dmg resistance...would have the same impact, but at least left our skills alone. probably would have been a cheaper adjustements than nerfing a class, the whole weapon system, buffing creeps etc...

[MéLAnoR]

just want to add: We all saw the nerf coming because there alsways has been a nerf coming straight towards us...yes it is our personal waterloo, except that waterloo only happened once...;-)

and well why nerf dps? why not nerf our cc? heck i Don't need irritating shot, you could get rid of it and i would not mind (maybe a little bit), I chose a hunter to put out huge dps on One Target...I don not need to mezz. roots and fears really are okay...while i still believe the BM traitline needed to be nerfed because of the enormous threat lvl...

and dps nerfs are also achieved by adding + ranged dmg resistance...would have the same impact, but at least left our skills alone. probably would have been a cheaper adjustements than nerfing a class, the whole weapon system, buffing creeps etc...
nah dont worry every nerf hunter has seen has brought good things regarding development of class.im hoping to see changes to other 2 sets hopefully huntsmen and better close combat options with better survivabilty to endure our dps in long run when solo and a better dps performance of ToF so that hunters can dps with good CC helping their group fellows :)

[Ozarius]

Hunter

* Improved Swift Bow, third shot has been adjusted to be a bit more in line with a two-second induction skill. Sounds like a nerf
* Quality of Mercy's multiplier has been reduced.explicit one, there's a trait i wont bother slotting anymore
* The overall effectiveness of trait set bonuses for "The Bowmaster" has been reduced, but the Threat aspects and power consumptions have also gone down, enabling aggressive groups to attempt to deal with the Hunter aggro generated by Strength stance and not automatically make it the wrong choice. (Though groups and tanks are still going to have to be on their A game with high end Hunters who choose to be this... aggressive.)explicit nerf
* Barbed Arrow trait now has tooltip text that specifies the DoT pulse increase.meh
* Strength Quick Shot Slow Legacy now properly updates the tooltip of Quickshot while Strength Stance is active.tooltip fix? OMG this makes it sooooo good
* Improved Strength of Earth Morale Regen tooltip has been corrected so that it shows the proper morale regen increase.? this already reads right, but whatever
* Legacy Quick Shot Threat Down tooltip has been updated to reflect that this only works while in Endurance Stance.meh
* Bow of the Righteous growth at 50+ has been slowed.sounds like a nerf to ICPR, cool
* Quick Shot has been slightly reduced at 51+ to take into account the larger weapon contributions of post-Moria.nerf to quick shot, nice
* The Super Critical Magnitude of Merciful Shot has been reduced to allow for stacking modifiers.so, another nerf with some strange explanation
* Legendary Fleet stance now adds a 10% attack speed buff. still useless



These changes are good ones :) , looking forward for them! will hopefully bring some balance in ettenmors.
________________________________
Ozar 60 Hunter
Thraimmor 60 Guard
Naltlor 60 Minstrel
Umitbas r6(10 k left to r7:)) Defiler

[Imbavince]

nah dont worry every nerf hunter has seen has brought good things regarding development of class.im hoping to see changes to other 2 sets hopefully huntsmen and better close combat options with better survivabilty to endure our dps in long run when solo and a better dps performance of ToF so that hunters can dps with good CC helping their group fellows :)

well the class developed because we tried to work with these changes and adapted. We learnded to "fix up, look sharp" i believe this is the right term. Turbine never did anything for us, we got better because of ourselves and because we had to.
With hunters it's just like somebody drove a car in you and you are put in a wheelchair. So you try to learn to walk again. You'll always be disabled but at least you're walking again.

I believe I saw a picture of DangerDan months ago. And he seems the type to be out on lunch-break everytime the hunter class is discussed. Replace lunch-time with: Breakfast, 11-o-clock break, Brunch, Lunch, Afternoon break, Teatime, Supper, Dinner, Midnight Snack...

[MéLAnoR]

first dev response on us forums ( on a rant thread lol) :

http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/statusicon/post_new.gif Today, 01:00 PM
http://forums.lotro.com/image.php?u=1015948&dateline=1234216391 (http://forums.lotro.com/member.php?u=1015948) Tarrant (http://forums.lotro.com/member.php?u=1015948) http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Spa Maven
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 549


Re: Hunters nerfed because of crybaby creeps? SHUTDOWN THE MOORS NOW
Hunters were not targeted for a nerf, there was an overall rebalancing of combat. It also had nothing to do with PvMP.

If you have canceled your account, we hope that you enjoy whatever game you end up in, and wish you the best of luck.


* * *
so moaning and crying no solution we re familiar to nerfs and changes and will adapt.
if you dont seem to be having fun after b7 just roll another class for some time. ^^

[Eorthor]

nerfs are good on long shot ; hope they make the other 2 sets viable which i have been looking for.
nope Fed fleet stance sucks atm :P

You suck at the moment.

Still don't get how you think,
+5 seconds before Focus loss.
-70% moving miss chance
(and after book 7) +10% attack speed.

is bad.
Sure untraited it's as useful as a slap in the face but traited Fleet Stance ftw.

Buff ranged mitigations on creeps. nuff said. You think these changes will kill hunters in the moors? Put 5 hunters together and they will still be very leathel (as was the case in SoA)

And what about annihilating NPC's in a matter of seconds?
Still think that's not imbalanced?
Dream on.
And the nerf's aren't that big i don't understand why you're all crying.

[MéLAnoR]

You suck at the moment.

Still don't get how you think,
+5 seconds before Focus loss.
-70% moving miss chance
(and after book 7) +10% attack speed.

is bad.
Sure untraited it's as useful as a slap in the face but traited Fleet Stance ftw.yes compared to traits and dps you sacrifice its bad.
i still beleive they shoud allow us some skills to be able to use on move like barbed arrow or Qs.
At start of development of huntsmen set they talked about it that way but i dunno they might have left it to rohan expansion for mounted combat.
And i dont suck !
Get it ! :p

[Imbavince]

yes, fleet stance is useless, even traited. -10% attack speed, is only for auto-attack anyway...and autoattack on the run? while losing focus? and giving up the buffs from the other stances? plus it is only available in combat? rubbish...

ah and nerf not directed towards hunters...yeah, right...he would say that, wouldnt he? :)

[Gilrob]

Ultimate solution: delete the moors, all it does is break the game and make all the creep babies cry.

Hunter = NUKER live with it!

[MéLAnoR]

For those dps maniacs runekeeper also might be a good alternative but bear in mind these 2 classes are completely different :

check here (http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=251680)
Hopped on over to Bullroarer to test the changes.

So far it has been mostly positive with solitary thunder.
The net gain is definately a dps boost. This is my preferred spec so I mostly going to comment on those specific changes.

Legendary item DPS Legacy changes:
Lightning damage modifier goes to +%15
Writ of Fire modifier +20%
Essence of flag modifier +%20

Store bought level 50 chisel crit = 647 tactical resist penetration(300ish non crit)

Teal crit chisel needing mithril flakes (recipe found on monster) = ~750 tactical resist penetration

The damage on lightning is lot of fun. Lots of stacking crit bonuses. I one shot a level 60ish orc in lorien with epic conclusion. Lightning now has a better rotation than before. It is also less repetitive.

- Epic conclusion buffed!
- normal hit 700-800
- Closing remarks: +75% damage for each harsh debate, and or thunderous words buff on the runekeeper! 30s cooldown.
~ 1250 with one debuff
~ 1800-200 with two debuffs
Biggest crits going for about 4k-5kdepending on which buffs are on me.


*Fall to our wrath buffed to be useful. Now stacks with fall to X and has %10 proc rate. If you want burst - pop both on a monster and watch the damage stack up.

- Essence of storm is wonderfully buffed and has a great chance at critting for solid damage
700-1000. The crit rate is a lot more reliable on it too!!! Its on a longer cooldown which makes sense.

- the 15 second +%30 chance to crit bonus after casting vivid imagery is great for controlled burst.

*AOE damage SIGNIFICANTLY improved. Ice got buffed.
*Writ of Cold doing excess of 200 damage.
*Essence of winter 450-550

* Writ of fire and essence of flame are doing a bit more damage. Vital part of lightning rotation now.

* Calming Verse: If it does what the trait says its supposed to do then it will be useful. +10% rk skill damage.

* Lost the speed buff from martial training. The changes to it however are very useful. Power regen and +10% to Morale and Power.

* Weapon of X changed to reduce ice/fire/lightning elemental mitigation depending on stone used.

Fire:
I tried it for a while. The inductions are fine if you're in a group i guess. Harder to use solo, but still effective if used for pulls and then use storm skills to finish off. I can see it doing fairly nice damage if given room to cast. More control over steady damage as well. Less spikey than lightning.its nice to see runekeepers are geting some love in dps department.
the game has been missing a caster dps and many of us might try and have fun.
And on LFF maybe runekeepers will be also looked for as a dps class too.

[beaverlegion]

Nice we'll prolly end up doing less dps than champ or rk now.
So the only reason to have a hunter in you group will be to remove poison in skumfil.
Great

[MéLAnoR]

Nice we'll prolly end up doing less dps than champ or rk now.
So the only reason to have a hunter in you group will be to remove poison in skumfil.
Greatahh dont drama champ / hunter / rk dps all different.
imo hunter from start shouldnt be called as nuker on class definition ; being a major dps class gives you a dull game experience as it has been in SoA and now we re simply going that way after b7 changes sadly.

[Imbavince]

Nice we'll prolly end up doing less dps than champ or rk now.
So the only reason to have a hunter in you group will be to remove poison in skumfil.
Great

no you are wrong! we can port them back to 21st hall!

[MéLAnoR]

rough number : Swiftbow reduced dps by 25% at least (3rd arrow is liek 77% of bow +44 damage posted on us forums)

[tmp]

For those dps maniacs runekeeper also might be a good alternative but bear in mind these 2 classes are completely different :


The damage on lightning is lot of fun. Lots of stacking crit bonuses. I one shot a level 60ish orc in lorien with epic conclusion. Lightning now has a better rotation than before. It is also less repetitive.

- Epic conclusion buffed!
- normal hit 700-800
- Closing remarks: +75% damage for each harsh debate, and or thunderous words buff on the runekeeper! 30s cooldown.
~ 1250 with one debuff
~ 1800-200 with two debuffs
Biggest crits going for about 4k-5kdepending on which buffs are on me.

Oh ffs... :bw:

[MéLAnoR]

Oh ffs... :bw:wellcome to pvmp of BA vs Rk fights lol.

[aop]

Hunters survival is all about DPS.

Keeping enemies away from your skin is the only way to not die in fights as a hunter. You have no healing or escaping skills except for DF which is pretty much death without repair bills. I generally get ½ health off from lvl60 mob before he lands his first blow. Against one mob it may seem OP but against 2 or 3 it's very much necessary because enemies hitting you reset your bow inductions and you can only use skills like Quick Shot (which is going to be nerfed too) and skills requiring focus like MS (going to get nerf batted). Ever tried to use (Improved) Swift Bow when you have 3 enemies on you?

edit: Since PvMP seems to be the main reason my PVE game is getting ruined I wish that one day Moors would be shut down for good.

[Doctorfun]

Well comments from other classes in this thread are the proof, if we needed one, that the MAIN reason for the hunter nerf is... PvMP. Which is ridiculous in a game where the developer stated more than once that PvP will NEVER be a reason to make changes that affect PvE. This is not a PvP game. Yeah, right!

But it's not the only one. The other is to give RKs a boost. Let's face it, the acceptance of the class was really low and devs seem to be in love with RK... or just too stubborn to accept the player base mostly dislikes it. So they will do anything to force us into playing RKs.
Reminds me of the brilliant idea Blizzard had to balance population between Alliance and Horde... make the shaman he most overbuffed class in MMO story. We're seeing something similar.

[nightbyday]

These changes are good ones :) , looking forward for them! will hopefully bring some balance in ettenmors.
________________________________
Ozar 60 Hunter
Thraimmor 60 Guard
Naltlor 60 Minstrel
Umitbas r6(10 k left to r7:)) Defiler

Again another post that points to hunter nerf being due to PvMP, i noted to day that there are rewards coming which will buff melee damage that will compensate and balance any difference between casting and melee, there is nothing for buffing ranged....STELTH NERF TO HUNTERS...

[Imbavince]

i swa these jewellery sets as well, there is on set granting +10% crit chance fpr 30 seconds, not worth slotting though the jewellery does not compare

[MéLAnoR]

Feel free to read and vote here :
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=338519

"Major reason behind hunter changes with book 7" Thread..

TA.

[Sidamos]

rough number : Swiftbow reduced dps by 25% at least (3rd arrow is liek 77% of bow +44 damage posted on us forums)

what nonsense is that statement ?
If they had removed the 3rd arrow totally it would be 33%....

(no stance)
Now It is 3 x bow + 104
In B7 2 x bow + 99 and 73% + 32

Let's say bow 150 => ~84%
bow 140 => ~83%
bow 130 => ~82%

Really stop posting crap...

[Silmahad]

what nonsense is that statement ?
If they had removed the 3rd arrow totally it would be 33%....

(no stance)
Now It is 3 x bow + 104
In B7 2 x bow + 99 and 73% + 32

Let's say bow 150 => ~84%
bow 140 => ~83%
bow 130 => ~82%

Really stop posting crap...

Please, fanboy, give me a logical answer, why does Turbine touch ISB, QS, BoR at all, besides the weapon and Bowmaster Set nerf?

[Sidamos]

I'm not a fanboy but it's bullsh1t to post ISB is reduced to at least 75% of prior but
in fact the damage is reduced by around 16-18%.

I still miss in which way QS was touched.

BoR change isn't the world. You lose ~350 power for 100 Skills. I guess it's mainly
directed to strength stance and QS. You could chain QS and your power didn't go
down at all. It's alike -20% powerreggen by BotR. However not really something to
complain about.

About ISB. I have no clue. I can only guess. I see it like that they are pleased how
the skill works <52. Also ISB builds on SB, so if they want to reduce the damage
52+ they can only lower the 3rd attack which they will do. Overall the damage
you loss there is just alike 100-150 points per ISB.

[Imbavince]

well bur people stating that the third shot is roughly auto attack level, worries we why i bough it at all...for an auto-attack more every 10 seconds?

[MéLAnoR]

thanks to us forum members :
Tooltip of Skills in Book 7

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9471/str.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=str.jpg)


can we compare it with live any stealth changes especially regarding power requirements cause that hurt sustained dps in a group.

[Imbavince]

how come there is always a loss in percentage of the weapon AND a loss in the addiotional dmg? I thought, apart from the skills nerfed they were only touching weapon dps, if you get my meaning...

[OMWiener]

how come there is always a loss in percentage of the weapon AND a loss in the addiotional dmg? I thought, apart from the skills nerfed they were only touching weapon dps, if you get my meaning...


becuase the additional damage is based on the weapon and non-comparable

[Imbavince]

is it? I thought the additional damage was made up by the skill itself, the agility modificiations and so on...was never sure of course...

[OMWiener]

I know that's it's at least partially dependent on the weapon.

[tmp]

is it? I thought the additional damage was made up by the skill itself, the agility modificiations and so on...was never sure of course...
To a degree it depends on the max damage (iirc) of the weapon you have equipped. You can check it easily by swapping a few weapons on your character and comparing the damage listed in tooltips :)

[Sidamos]

For example
3rd age bow maxed out ISB 125 in str BM4+
3rd age crossbow maxed out ISB 135 in str BM4+

it's abit strange...

short to really compare it with now you need to be sure you have equipped the same
weapon

[aop]

That ISB nerf is freaking huge. It's much closer to original SB than the ISB we now have on live.

[Sidamos]

not true...~40% to ISB(now) ~60% to SB...

You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 341 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 329 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 187 points of Beleriand damage.

You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 355 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 341 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 198 points of Beleriand damage.

You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 346 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 331 points of Beleriand damage.
You wound Gwollúg with Improved Swift Bow for 187 points of Beleriand damage.

seeing it from SB:
old bonus +50%
new bonus +27-29%

The screenshot you see some posts before is made with a 3rd age crossbow L59 equipped.
For ISB it's 120 (B7) and 135 (now). (-5% in strength)

[Imbavince]

and you are telling me this is not a huge difference? It's an auto attack, nothing more, that's what hunters spend 250s on...Ridiculous

[Erhnam]

For those fearing about RK numbers, I have posted an explanation about it form a RK point of view. It may be interesting to read

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4955018&postcount=20

[MéLAnoR]

They say we dont see much change to our kill rate ; thats wrong cause the mob morale didnt go down as much as global dps nerf ; actually hunters will suffer additional at least %10.

This thread gives an idea.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=252374

[MéLAnoR]

Improved Swift Bow
Before.....
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/KrisnWo316/before-1.jpg

AFTER!
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/KrisnWo316/after.jpg

from us forums ..

[tmp]

That's 16.5% reduction in overall strenght of the skill for weapon with 100 damage per hit, less so (percentage-wise) if the weapon is hitting for more than 100 points. E.g. for top-end damage of l.59 3rd age crossbow on test (134) the reduction is 15.5%

Hard to provide single number since the reduction is uneven -- the '% of ranged weapon damage' part on the last shot was cut by 1/3 rd while the fixed damage part was cut by 2/3rds.

or to put it another way, the bonus given to the skill compared to standard swift bow was cut by half.

One thing that lot of people seem to be ignoring though... apparently this change is accompanied with change to skill animation, that makes the whole thing execute much faster/smoother than the current ISB on live?

[OMWiener]

One thing that lot of people seem to be ignoring though... apparently this change is accompanied with change to skill animation, that makes the whole thing execute much faster/smoother than the current ISB on live?

Incorrect, the animation was bugged on bows. On crossbows the skill animation was fine. As such it's jsut a fix for bows, not a buff.

[Valandir]

* the overall effectiveness of trait set bonuses for "the bowmaster" has been reduced, but the threat aspects and power consumptions have also gone down, enabling aggressive groups to attempt to deal with the hunter aggro generated by strength stance and not automatically make it the wrong choice. (though groups and tanks are still going to have to be on their a game with high end hunters who choose to be this... Aggressive.)

..........
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=3461490#post3461490
The patch note is wrong. The power cost did not change.

Technically the patch note was correct. Originally the DPS reduction was larger than it is now on Bullroarer and it required less power. The decision was made to give back a portion of the DPS and remove the power reduction.

Unfortunately the patch notes were released before the comment was changed. Sorry for the confusion. The patch notes now reflect the correct change.

[tmp]

Incorrect, the animation was bugged on bows. On crossbows the skill animation was fine. As such it's jsut a fix for bows, not a buff.
If the "fix" results in faster shooting with bows ... ah whaterver, if you want to split hair on semantics just because you feel like crying you got nothing but nerfs... by all means, keep crying.

[Scatha the Worm]

If the "fix" results in faster shooting with bows ... ah whaterver, if you want to split hair on semantics just because you feel like crying you got nothing but nerfs... by all means, keep crying.

So now we are supposed to consider bug fixing a "buff" to our class? Oh please...

I already run everywhere it mattered to with oils because it fixes the animation of ISB. No change for me, just a minor impact on game economy. And yes, we got nothing but nerfs this time, look at the frikin list.

What is it with people coming over this board to say "huntards whine" when all there was to see around before was "*cry cry* my <whatever not DPS class> does less damage than a hunter, NERFFFFF THEMMMM". Now there you have it, tactical classes back on the OP side of the meter, god mode for loremasters and probably runekeepers now. I try to be optimistic and think this didn't happen just because of PvP, even when we are by far the class with the most casualties in ettens.

Anyway, this class role blending, while not a bad idea since it is oriented to casual players, is game breaking for the hunter experience. Throughout SoA we were one trick ponies with a replaceable role, and I for one certainly don't want to go back to that. So, yes, I want to outdamage every other class in game in an obvious way on a single target, and the idea of not only having to go back to the racing track with champs but also with RKs is not very nice.

Of course ToF (either give us chain-mez without a 1st age weap maxed legacy, or go easier on the tradeoffs) and HM (legendary sucks, and IPO should have 10m cd) could improve enough to be able to consider them, but that won't happen in this life-time considering the current experience.

So, whatever. Good Hunters will still outshine everyone else (or so I hope/wish, if it's not the case, I guess I'll switch main for a while), and casual hunters will struggle to make the difference, while the class itself will become less desireable in groups. The watcher will no longer be a ranged stand-off (great change IMO, I don't want to tank). the only thing I will really hate is the stupid nerf to power regen.

CONTENT TRIVIALIZATION BY MASSIVE DPS IS A CONTENT DESIGN PROBLEM.

[tmp]

So now we are supposed to consider bug fixing a "buff" to our class? Oh please...
Sure, considering that whenever a bug fix results in reduced utility of the class, the players never hesitate to scream how much it nerfs them. This logic either works both ways, or not at all.

[nightbyday]

...Anyway, this class role blending, while not a bad idea since it is oriented to casual players, is game breaking for the hunter experience. Throughout SoA we were one trick ponies with a replaceable role, and I for one certainly don't want to go back to that. So, yes, I want to outdamage every other class in game in an obvious way on a single target, and the idea of not only having to go back to the racing track with champs but also with RKs is not very nice...

Thats the probelm or rather its a problem people see hunters as 'one trick ponies'

A fully traited BM Hunter has more than one use in fellowship and 'good' hunters know this. they know primary when to switch traits and when to hit big, they know when to use AoE, fears, traps (and not just at the start of a fight) and so on.

I find my self when playing hunter very often getting multiple adds off a minstrel by switching to strength stance using AoE and low cuts etc etc, grabbing aggro running off then rain of thorns on them and running back to main fight. Then using bards/distracting/ and even in combat traps to lay down more CC.

Hunters have more than one use and can do a superb job of adding a little 'control' when the dung hist the rotating spinning thing. people just don't see hunter on the whole as anything other DPs freaks and we are. If were not i doubt i would be able to do the above.

Think of the uses have in some of these moria instances...

GS, kiting the 'big fella' by pinging of barbed arrow and quick shot in trength stance while other beat on him as he runs past them (the nubs scream ,ffs drp aggro, and chase after the hunter like benny hill) i suspect hunter will just become ranged there and nothing else (a damage totem).

Forges, No LM or Burg? never fear a hunter will handel the other troll bards/distracting shot/rain of thorns/ in combat trap.

FG, hunters are beautiful for picking up the fire fist as respawns, then kite dpsing him till he is almost dead only to them melee him to finish right next to the boss (and the awsome DPS finishes for third phase).

16th hall, ranged dps for the win with some emergency CC.

Skumfil, Oh my nothing better than a hunter for protecting you mini in strength mode with out a champ around.

DD, because hunter can multi task and are multi skilled they so valuable an addition in a fellowship here.

Of course all the instance are being changed so there won't be much of a need for back up CC and any way once we lose the 'mad burst dps' the chance of aggroing 'swarms' off minstrel will be low so might as well get and LM or RK.

Bit negative i know but yes you are proably right Hunters will once more viewd as pure ranged dps and not have a chance to show the skills that they do have.

[OMWiener]

If the "fix" results in faster shooting with bows ... ah whaterver, if you want to split hair on semantics just because you feel like crying you got nothing but nerfs... by all means, keep crying.

You should take a look into the creep changes thread about the defilers. Weren't those nothing but 'fixes' either? :P

Weird how people use different standards for the other side hé?

You didn't read correctly. The animation was fine for crossbows! So it doesn't change anything for those hunters. I don't wanna whine, i'm over the changes really, but if you do give info, make sure it's correct.

[Silmahad]

..........

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?&postid=3461490#post3461490

I already expected that somehow...

[Imbavince]

yep great...basically another "nerf" +5% Power cost...

Come on, now we have skills in full bowmaster setup that cost up to 200 power...I'm sitting at 830 ICPR unbuffed at the moment and still need an LM around in the Vile Maw, while using precision stance and BOTR equipped, and also with a Focus Power Cost Legacie. These Power costs are insane. Fully Buffed I get upt to 1000 ICPR... I agree at some point that SS power cost should be high, but this really seems out of control now...

As concerning the thrwat reduction...Who would care about this? Every Hunter using SS while soloing aggros the mob in any case. Every Hunter using it in Fellowships knows that he will aggro anything near, while burning through the mobs and power. Also it provided a useful snare to the mob...

I reckon this change is nerfing SS to bits. And the hunter in particular roles as well. So no more kiting, the #1 ability which he could shine in is gone in fellowships. I don't know where it says Guardians have to tank the boss. I agree that kiting was an option in every instance, but this is bad content design. Kiting is a respected tactic and really useful. Maybe guards are not happy just tanking the 2 adds, which is quite a responsible task as well. It was really a mastery of kiting with two hunters snaring the mob playing PingPOng with Boss. This needed a huge amount of class- and aggro understanding. I pride myself in being good at it, while bringing something useful into group with my kiting and tanking ability.
Now I am basically degraded as a minor Watchtower, pushing 1,2,3 in Boss Fights, and doing not a heck of al lot of DMG because a) BM Traitline was Nerfed b) I'm running around in Precision or Endurance because otherwise I cannot handle my power consmption in SS which does not matter anyway because c) SS does not provide anyhing useful to the group any longer (Snare) and d) DMG was nerfed quite a bit as well.
If I would be looking for another fellowship member I would now rather take another LM, CPT, BURG, CHMP or a second Guardian, since they can contribute more to the fellowship if B7 plays out like I fear it will.

[OMWiener]

I don't really agree on that one. A hunter in S:S should run out of power, similar to a ministrel (with way more icpr then us) running out of power when doing his max healing or any other class.

Yes power/damage has increased considerably with this change, but then again it would force more hunters into endurance when in groups, which can only be a good thing tbh. Imo this only hampers S:S in groups.

[Silmahad]

I don't really agree on that one. A hunter in S:S should run out of power, similar to a ministrel (with way more icpr then us) running out of power when doing his max healing or any other class.

Yes power/damage has increased considerably with this change, but then again it would force more hunters into endurance when in groups, which can only be a good thing tbh. Imo this only hampers S:S in groups.

Your are right, that a hunter that uses S:S exclusively should run out of power and a good hunter won't do that of course (the watcher fight - as it is now - might be an exception), but the good hunter plays with stances.

I am changing stances during fights a lot. On trash I usually use endurance on start (or precision if I know it's a good tank with a solid maxed belt), but switch to S:S to draw adds from the minstrel and to burn them down fast (the 7k morale buggers in the Forge for example). During Bossfights I do start in endurance, switch to precision later on and maybe I even use S:S on the last 10k Morale of a Boss (always with my Beneath Notice button in reach of course). If certain encounter scripts forces me to accomplish other tasks during a Boss fight (battling adds etc.), I know the threat progression of the tank even allows a much earlier switch to S:P or S:S.

All in all, the direct (BoR) and indirect nerfs (less damage but same power in S:S) to power consumption will affect this - in my eyes well sorted - playstyle.

[nightbyday]

yep great...basically another "nerf" +5% Power cost...

Come on, now we have skills in full bowmaster setup that cost up to 200 power...I'm sitting at 830 ICPR unbuffed at the moment and still need an LM around in the Vile Maw, while using precision stance and BOTR equipped, and also with a Focus Power Cost Legacie. These Power costs are insane. Fully Buffed I get upt to 1000 ICPR... I agree at some point that SS power cost should be high, but this really seems out of control now...

As concerning the thrwat reduction...Who would care about this? Every Hunter using SS while soloing aggros the mob in any case. Every Hunter using it in Fellowships knows that he will aggro anything near, while burning through the mobs and power. Also it provided a useful snare to the mob...

I reckon this change is nerfing SS to bits. And the hunter in particular roles as well. So no more kiting, the #1 ability which he could shine in is gone in fellowships. I don't know where it says Guardians have to tank the boss. I agree that kiting was an option in every instance, but this is bad content design. Kiting is a respected tactic and really useful. Maybe guards are not happy just tanking the 2 adds, which is quite a responsible task as well. It was really a mastery of kiting with two hunters snaring the mob playing PingPOng with Boss. This needed a huge amount of class- and aggro understanding. I pride myself in being good at it, while bringing something useful into group with my kiting and tanking ability.
Now I am basically degraded as a minor Watchtower, pushing 1,2,3 in Boss Fights, and doing not a heck of al lot of DMG because a) BM Traitline was Nerfed b) I'm running around in Precision or Endurance because otherwise I cannot handle my power consmption in SS which does not matter anyway because c) SS does not provide anyhing useful to the group any longer (Snare) and d) DMG was nerfed quite a bit as well.
If I would be looking for another fellowship member I would now rather take another LM, CPT, BURG, CHMP or a second Guardian, since they can contribute more to the fellowship if B7 plays out like I fear it will.

Superb post...

I wrote some thing simular, yep thats the problem for hunters i also suspect we will relegated to 'only need one' for fellowships and only when they need 'one' to 3 button spam shots and ZZZZZzzzzz away in a corner :P

[Imbavince]

wow this is the first time that someone called my post superb ;-)

But I should have made it very clear, that I myself agree that we should run out of power fairly quick in SS, that is why they put a +40% on this stance. i completely agree with the devs on this part and with Silmahad/OMWiener. A good hunter plays around with his stances and does not always toggle only one in group play.
In specific boss encounters post B7 I just do not see any point in unsig it any longer. In addition the snare effect was quite a big part of our utility and CC, so that is gone. I tend to think that we'll get really one-dimensional, concerning instances. Since boss encounters usually are the most difficult, thrilling and challenging things to do in PvE, potentially being degraded to pushing 1,2,3 is not what I want. You all know that aggro control, and kiting both are a high art-form of a hunter's performance, so I would prefer to keep this ;-)

[tmp]

You should take a look into the creep changes thread about the defilers. Weren't those nothing but 'fixes' either? :P
Hmm what do you mean? If i remember right, the book 7 defiler changes buffed the class some but in the areas other than people expected (the heals) ... could you be more specific? :confused:

[aragurulas]

people will always whine, but hunters were godmode... WELL DONE TURBINE

[Halo Jones]

They're nerfing BotR as everyone is using it.
Everyone is using it, as if you don't then in SS you run out of power very rapidly indeed.
Now in SS with the nerf everyone will run out of power very rapidly.

One could untrait BotR, negating the loss, and resetting to the previous I'll run of out of power anyway position, so I'll plug a different trait to allow me to do something else, but the issue here is that they're all utterly useless.

Is any well traited and equipped hunter slotting anything other than BA, RoT and BotR at the moment? If so what are you using, why are you using it, and how do you make the best use of it?

[Scappydog]

Those are the 3 I have slotted. Haven't wasted my cash on Fleet Stance and can't see any reason to slot either of the other 2 new legendaries either.

[Scatha the Worm]

Fleet Stance legendary is a joke, Cool Burn is nice in paper but to really get the best out of it you would need a power pool of 3.5k or more, and the 5 bowmaster traits means quite a trade-off for responsiveness and sustained DPS. Explosive Arrow... it should allow chain-mezz (or at least allow third age weaps legacies to get there).

The nerf just forces us further into cookie cutter builds, since the sustained DPS department is pretty clearly defined within a group of trait sets and some particular mandatory traits.

If you want to generate big numbers, fine, trait cool burn, but you're giving up some significant induction reduction bonuses, power regen, and/or cc (you either unslot BotR or CC legendaries). Perhaps that would work for a "leechin' huntard" build for PvP, but don't expect to last more than 2 minutes in a combat before being completely depleted, and therefor useless.

[Imbavince]

I run Cool Burn in the moors to jump on people that are alone, and I'm stealthed. Big Trade off though on the long Inductions, will throw it out when B7 comes Live for RoT... That is 3 legendaries nobody is going to choose...

[Honvik]

As a Minstrel I dont know WHY they would nerf it to the extent they are doing. All that will happen is more people get unhappy and stop playing hunters :(

[MéLAnoR]

in pvmp i dont slot BoTr any more ; instead i get press onward which is usable every 10 min ooc.
Pvmp is situational so it might save you some time.

[Imbavince]

A it's just that none of them really feel legendary...Well apart from Botr up until now, and Rot ;-)

[Viceciceror]

Hmm what do you mean? If i remember right, the book 7 defiler changes buffed the class some but in the areas other than people expected (the heals) ... could you be more specific? :confused:

heya il try 2 explain all the defiler changes to ya ;) , we have no increase in heals/debuffs whatsoever.. the -5% chance your critically hit by melee is now also 5% for ranged/tactical , this were all the changes conerning only the class itself

[Beleg Of Doriath]

Yepp,

Sure there are some uber players out there that can use all power/skills the hunter class got and take down a foundation troll...

but *certainly* not the average hunter player.



I did that, and it wasn't overly hard. Guess that makes me l337 ;)

About this nerf - I am hoping its not as big as it sounds. The DPS reduction is substantial, I hope they won't give us an overal -20% dps effectiveness on top of that.

We did needed nerfing a bit. The Quality of Mercy trait could have been lowered, Bowmaster reduced by 5-10% and the weapon nerf. That would have been about right.

But we also needed some buffs to the other two trait sets. I mean, Huntsman should have a bonus which allows us to use camouflage while moving, with a -50% run speed cost. It could have been the fourth set bonus. After all a hunter is supposed to be about stealth in real life and Middle-earth, yet we have virtually no decent stealth in this game.

[MéLAnoR]

Some real numbers from bullroarer server ; thanks to us forum members:

From what I can tell, the mob morale decrease scales down each level. There is a bigger drop in morale on level 51 mobs than level 56 mobs, and by the time you get to level 60 mobs, the drop is 3% like reported from the LoS.

3% drop
Level 60 Live Ghash-Hai Rampager- 3919, Ghash-Hai Summoner 3172
Level 60 Bk7 Ghash-Hai Rampager- 3817, Ghash-Hai Summoner 3090

11% drop
Level 56 Live Moria Warrior- 3529
Level 56 Bk7 Moria Warrior- 3168

19% drop
Level 51 Live Shadow-Warg- 2923
Level 51 Bk7 Shadow-Warg- 2381
also its reporte that the LoS mobs hit %20 lesser in melee damage.

[MéLAnoR]

first official dev response (11th march us dev chat) regarding dps change :

[01:48] <@Zephenia> <[PM]Renali> I fully understand why the need to scale back DPS was implimented. However, do you think it went a little too far in some cases? With my own personal testing, my Hunter has dropped a solid 35-40% in overall DPS, before today's update to Bullroarer. (I haven't been able to test it much today to see anything changed) And this is with the same gear/traits as I had on the live servers.
[01:50] <@Jalessa> We also scaled down monster hits and resistances to compensate for the change in weapon DPS. In the case of the Hunter though, you also went through additional skill changes, which may reflect the other changes you are seeing in your overall DPS changes. We're still evaluating the data on these changes however, so please keep feedbacking on on the changes.


edit some tester views (wolftear us forums) :
The Improved swift bow is now a lot slower than what I am used to with my crossbow on my
live server. It feels slow, sluggish, and just plain irritating.

The graphics glitch when you have oil applied to your bow/crossbow wasn't fixed.

The random 'stun for no reason' that I would very rarely get on live is now worse. I had
3 of them in the scholar crafting instance alone.
-once before a fight as i was just starting an induction (and not yet in combat)
-once after a fight and just turning to walk away
-once after a fight and starting to remove poison
-there was another but I was actually in combat with a goblin so it's possible it was a legit stun

Pathing issues and anti exploit continues to get worse, or at the very least just as bad.
p.s : Jalessa is working over monster behaviour ; pvmp and some other things i cant remember right now.

[tmp]

p.s : Jalessa is working over monster behaviour ; pvmp and some other things i cant remember right now.
http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3490428&postcount=47
To address this rather quickly...

I am a systems developer for LOTRO - one of my current projects is monster play.

However, at a dev chat, I am a representative of the entire systems team, regardless of who else is there with me. I may also cross post on occasion, when one of my brethren is not able to post.

[MéLAnoR]

http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3490428&postcount=47
thanks for additıonal info and nıce post there regarding IHW nerf to captains.

Btw some preview server data taken from us forums :
ISB (all dev crits,max dps second age bow, full bowmaster, strength stance):
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 676 points of Common damage.
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 676 points of Common damage.
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 385 points of Common damage.

total: 1737 on all devastating criticals


ISB (no crit,max dps second age bow, full bowmaster, strength stance):
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 302 points of Common damage.
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 320 points of Common damage.
You wound the Orc Brawler with Improved Swift Bow for 178 points of Common damage.

total: 800 no crits

(both tests on a level 60 orc npc)

the improved merciful shot trait has been nerfed from +100% crit magnitude to +50% crit magnitude which results in a change from 2k on a dev to ~1600 on dev

From experience in the post bk7 moors a hunter will crit nowhere near as much as they do on live, I havent seen a dev crit yet and only crit at most twice on the same creep in all of their 7k morale.

[LAW666]

ive said it once before...if i feel the hunter class is less fun after book 7 then ill cancel my subscription...i dont want to roll another class, this is my first mmo and i chose hunter for a reason, that being its close to the many FPS class chars i play i.e. sniper. Sniper = massive DPS and **** melee a fair trade off in my opinion same as the hunter in lotro...if u (turbine) make the hunter a mere taxi player then sod u !! i will go back to free to play FPS games and save money..theres more FPS games out there anyhow..i will not bother with what i see u forcing players to do...change to warden or RK!! ive seen this crap b4 in other games mainly guild wars and u have taken many ideas from that game and introduced them here.

Fair enough peeeps are a little panicky about said changes, and many say its due to pvmp players moaning...I DONT PLAY PVMP IT DOESNT INTEREST ME AND I DONT SEE ANY PVMO IN LORD OF THE RINGS BOOKS!!..."oh hang on gimli i cant help the FS im going to do some PVMP for a bit" bull****!......anyhow what do u care if u lose 1 subscription...Heres a list of games ill be happy to play and NOT pay for...DODS, BF2142, TF2, BF2, GUILD WARS,FALLOUT 3.....the list goes on ....all great games all free to play!

[MéLAnoR]

ive said it once before...if i feel the hunter class is less fun after book 7 then ill cancel my subscription...i dont want to roll another class, this is my first mmo and i chose hunter for a reason, that being its close to the many FPS class chars i play i.e. sniper. Sniper = massive DPS and **** melee a fair trade off in my opinion same as the hunter in lotro...if u (turbine) make the hunter a mere taxi player then sod u !! i will go back to free to play FPS games and save money..theres more FPS games out there anyhow..i will not bother with what i see u forcing players to do...change to warden or RK!! ive seen this crap b4 in other games mainly guild wars and u have taken many ideas from that game and introduced them here.

Fair enough peeeps are a little panicky about said changes, and many say its due to pvmp players moaning...I DONT PLAY PVMP IT DOESNT INTEREST ME AND I DONT SEE ANY PVMO IN LORD OF THE RINGS BOOKS!!..."oh hang on gimli i cant help the FS im going to do some PVMP for a bit" bull****!......anyhow what do u care if u lose 1 subscription...Heres a list of games ill be happy to play and NOT pay for...DODS, BF2142, TF2, BF2, GUILD WARS,FALLOUT 3.....the list goes on ....all great games all free to play!Hey easy Law ; we all have been through this phases and i can understqand your frustration but dont think they ll make the class useless.Dangerdan our dev did a great jonb covering many broekn utilities being fixed with mom and im sure he ll cover it again.But yes its annoying to be forced to adapt adapt again.
Sometimes i really like my class is not getting advanced 3 steps forward 2 stesp backward.And i feel dizzy between books.
If you dont play pvmp you wont suffer really ; its just pvmp hunter will be trash now.
The class has become utterly helpless out of a raid imo in pvmp cause the new content forces each side to go raid or heavy gank groups like burg half raid or warg pack or heavy BA army.
If you think your bored with the class or even a game just take a cooldown and try some time later when you miss the content. :)
And dont care about those will flame ; go away delete your sub etc ..
Its a fact that the class is the most hatred one due to thefact that even being the most easy to understand how to play its the most wrongly perceived by others and remind you no reason to become as a person to be hatred and truely its not so.
No right to generalise a class perceiption to players own real life personality.

[Grishoo]

I'm happy about the DPS changes. And I'm sorry about the nerf Hunters, but this isn't just about you.

Big mobs shouldn't be taken down in 2 seconds by DPS alone. Hard instances should require planning, tanking, cc and not just piles and piles of raw dps.

The game has been getting easier since launch and finally Turbine take 1 step back with these changes and not before time!

[OMWiener]

I'm happy about the DPS changes. And I'm sorry about the nerf Hunters, but this isn't just about you.

Big mobs shouldn't be taken down in 2 seconds by DPS alone. Hard instances should require planning, tanking, cc and not just piles and piles of raw dps.

The game has been getting easier since launch and finally Turbine take 1 step back with these changes and not before time!


They could have changed the content ;)

[MéLAnoR]

They could have changed the content ;)
ARE YOU CRAZY ! ITS DAMN HARDER ! :eek:
WHY NEED TO SPEND TIME AND RESOURCE TO CHANGE CONTENT WHEN YOU CAN CHANGE A CLASS ; WAAAY EASIER ! :clap::clap::clap:

.....FILL WITH MORE EMOTES :p

[Imbavince]

dangerdan won't do nothing...I bet he's at lunch again and lets Jalessa work on the hunter changes ;) But I have to agree: Fleet Stance brings quite a bit utility now, when running away from a signature mob ;)

800 on a ISB is just plain ridicoulous...now this is a 2-second induction skill, it is supposed to hit hard, very hard...

[OMWiener]

dangerdan won't do nothing...I bet he's at lunch again and lets Jalessa work on the hunter changes ;) But I have to agree: Fleet Stance brings quite a bit utility now, when running away from a signature mob ;)

800 on a ISB is just plain ridicoulous...now this is a 2-second induction skill, it is supposed to hit hard, very hard...

I used to hit 800 in early SoA days with SB, lol

[Imbavince]

yeah i remember that...and it was ridiculously overpowered then, no doubt about it...

I mean 1,7k on all dev crits, well that is not going to happen a lot...0.05x0.05x0.05= 0.000125. Hmm I beleive the chance for hitting this hard will be at 0.0125% ;-)

[Scatha the Worm]

It took DangerDan a whole year to bring class development to where it is now, just to have it blown away on the first update. I'm sorry but I'm not too confident about upcoming positive changes.

Really, my concern is where our sustained DPS will stand when compared to a RK and a champ. Guess I'll develop my build just like SoA times.

[Ulanor]

It took DangerDan a whole year to bring class development to where it is now, just to have it blown away on the first update. I'm sorry but I'm not too confident about upcoming positive changes.

Really, my concern is where our sustained DPS will stand when compared to a RK and a champ. Guess I'll develop my build just like SoA times.

Oh i am not worried about champ DPS, dont forget they lose 20% of their weapon DPS too, and hunters without the bowmaster full set can still run against champs. Its the RK's I worry about as they get quite a boost compared to use from the fact their skills arent really affected by weapon DPS.

[Chocobo]

RK damage was already to low...thats why it has been boosted.

[Sidamos]

Well you need to compare the whole package not just that the RK will be a good dps.
Most people just forget that there is more than just damage that describes and makes a
class. Even if RKs get up to the damage of hunters, they won't really place a hunter. It's
more an addition how groups can setup and run.

The abilitity to survive is rather low as RK compared to a hunter. To be exact it's the
lowest of all classes. A RK can't really off-tank at all and has a much harder life to get
rid of aggression. For example a hunter can tank another ranged or do burst damage
to get a mob of a minstrel/rk. A RK can't do that. Ofc on the other side a RK can switch
to heal the group. That's what class developement means and is about. It's wrong to
just compare damage.

@Chocobo
too low is good - lol
in the lib: hunter 8-12s - RK ~18-24s per mob

[Imbavince]

yep after grouping up with a couple of RKs in hardmode instances, I agree. The RKs dmg is way too low, every instance i went with a Rk instead of a different class got significantly harder. Of course people have yet to learn their class, so that may change a bit but the RK surely needed the buff.

I'm more worried about the LMs and Minstrels DMG since they can dish out quite well even now, and LMs CC is just insane. I play a Loremaster myself and have to say, that I had no difficulties whatsoever soloing in Moria.

I really believe that Turbine is killing two Hunter trait sets with B7. Trapper of Foes is just useless since it still leaves us way behind the LM's capacity of CC. and our dmg gets hit really bad. Also all our bread and butter CC comes from legendary skills. The other form, Traps, is based on consumables that are quite expensive and the average Forester Hunter can't even farm the mats himself ;-) That really needs to be changed...
BM setup gets nerfed to pieces as well, there is no point now to go for 4BM since the traits got nerfed as well or are plain useless.
I guess we'll see many 3/4/0 builds now and some oddities with 2 ToF to get the extra ICPR. You will probably see more S:Precision now as well...

[Scatha the Worm]

Well you need to compare the whole package not just that the RK will be a good dps.
Most people just forget that there is more than just damage that describes and makes a
class. Even if RKs get up to the damage of hunters, they won't really place a hunter. It's
more an addition how groups can setup and run.
Even when I sometimes regret being the opener of this thread, and I sometimes manage to convince myself to wait for Live and try it out, the more information I gather, the worse it gets.

I'll be clear about one thing, I'm a grouping hunter and that is what entertains me the most, so I couldn't care less about outstanding impact or not on soloing. Whatever people say about the speed at which a solo normal mob drops doesn't interest me at all. It is group play I wan't to work into.

While it is true what you say about classes being more than the damage they can deal, for the hunter it isn't so much. Our so called secondary role of CC isn't potent enough to keep a mob mezz-locked, which is the definition of effective crowd-control, and anything that matters will now be snare/root immune, so there you go. All we will be bringing to the table is DPS, therefor it is in practice all we can compare.

Analyzing that, I've seen the raw data, and I can say I for one am truly worried about my class primary role.
If you had to choose between three classes that are similar on sustained ST DPS, which would you choose: one that can also off/main-tank (proper tanking that is, not only keeping aggro), one that can switch to being a full capable healer in a relatively small amount of time, or one that can Ditch Friends if/when things go bad?
I do have a kin which I will group with anyway, but I want to be useful to the group, not just to have a pity invite.
The abilitity to survive is rather low as RK compared to a hunter. To be exact it's the
lowest of all classes. A RK can't really off-tank at all and has a much harder life to get
rid of aggression. For example a hunter can tank another ranged or do burst damage
to get a mob of a minstrel/rk. A RK can't do that. Ofc on the other side a RK can switch
to heal the group. That's what class developement means and is about. It's wrong to
just compare damage.
A hunter can't really off-tank anything, it's rather just kiting or getting spam-healed. And tools to get rid of aggresion... That's is more a matter of gameplay than tools themselves.

If I have to pull something of a squishy, and things are going bad, that will only create a marginal difference (and I'm quite squishy too), unlike switching to full fledged healer mode. Off-tanking ranged adds... well, that's a niche we've found for ourselves and one that's not so important, it just saves the group of the task of stepping back until it's safe to tank it in melee (the watcher being an exception, but that will change too). I hope we don't have to give that one up as well.

I also know RKs have some number of mezz/stuns, even some AoE one.. so I'm not so sure if that's a big difference your survivability in comparison to our own CC used that way.

Medium armour and avoidances... granted, but I haven't seen that make such a big difference, anyway that is just opinion. And there are still self-heals you can use on 9-red, apart from whatever it is this new faster method to change attunement that comes with bk7.
@Chocobo
too low is good - lol
in the lib: hunter 8-12s - RK ~18-24s per mob
The Library isn't a well suited test to measure sustained damage. A hunter in there can go on +40% power cost strength and not break a sweat, just longer pauses between fights. A RKs DPS is based on attunement and DoTs, so it is by design it should lag far behind a nuke-designed DPS class. On the sustained DPS department, drop the +30% damage of strength, against the 9-red atunement on it's full power, having DoTs to full effectiveness, I would dare say it isn't that far off as everyone sees (I'm not saying RK damage is ok, I'm just saying we've gotten too hard a hit), and Book 7 in, it may get too close if not over the top.

All those stupid threads about high crits and impossible shots have created an impression every hunter gets them out every day, all the time, which is very far from true. But I can pretty much assure you, a 5 bowmaster hunter with cool burn and probably a low ICPR is nowhere near the best effective sustained DPS build. And all things considered, this Book 7 changes only reduce the utility of the trait sets, leaving few choices apart from 4/3-H/B heavy on ICPR, hence, back to one-dimensional carbon-copy builds, because the imposed play style of the skill set and class capabilities won't leave much room for imagination.

[Erhnam]

Hey Ilthan!! Nice runs yesterady ^^

A few comments
I do have a kin which I will group with anyway, but I want to be useful to the group, not just to have a pity invite. You know that we love having you around. The "pity invites", as you call it, were for my RK when you invite me to "DPS" lol :p Having a good hunter around is a blessing, ubre dps or not

I also know RKs have some number of mezz/stuns, even some AoE one.. so I'm not so sure if that's a big difference your survivability in comparison to our own CC used that way. Not really...one melee 5-10 sec mezz, one melee aoe 5-10sec mezz, and one not reliable stun (not a 100% to proc)...its more a "pull that one off of me!!" than any other thing

Medium armour and avoidances... granted, but I haven't seen that make such a big difference, anyway that is just opinion. And there are still self-heals you can use on 9-red, apart from whatever it is this new faster method to change attunement that comes with bk7 Just one self-heal, and not a big one (100/5 I think). The change attunement skill (Steady Hands) is a legendary we already have, it attunes to neutral, has a 3s induction, cut by half with the book. Not something you can cast while running for your life ;) With the little I know about hunters (level 56 still, as you know), I can really say that RKs are a lot more squishy, and the book wont change that a lot. We will still be the squishiest of all the classes (which is as it should be)


I'm still waiting to do some sustained DPS tests with you ;) Look at the bright side: If you have been nerfed too much, you will be buffed with B8 :p

[OMWiener]

I'm still waiting to do some sustained DPS tests with you ;) Look at the bright side: If you have been nerfed too much, you will be buffed with B8 :p

Let us know the results! and i think we'll have to wait another year for a buff :P

Reading the american forums, it seems power has once again become an issue. Well, i guess i'll start to stack icpr again. Bye bye all other stats :P

[MéLAnoR]

Let us know the results! and i think we'll have to wait another year for a buff :P

Reading the american forums, it seems power has once again become an issue. Well, i guess i'll start to stack icpr again. Bye bye all other stats :PIm stacking javelins :D

[Lenin_]

Reading american forums, if the posts there are true, we got more (unintentional) nerfs then stated in patch notes :P

Bow chant -900 down to -0.1 ? I've had to replace bow chant when zoning, but all the food oil and chants have been dropping randomly. I tested a number of times if hitting Needful Haste while being traited for Resolute Aim would prevent the induction from being set back, and sure enough, it wasn't set back. I tried this again today (as I was being beat up by many goblins http://images.lorforum.turbine.com/images/smilies/frown.gif) but, alas! It no longer seemed to work. A single hit by a goblin would interrupt the induction.

I don't want to troll, these reports are not yet verified, but what if...

Just... made me laugh reading it so I feel like sharing with you :D

Something more to make you smile


I was teamed with a Guardian buddy with a 2 hander tonight. He asked why I was doing less damage than he was with a fair number of hits. Even BM spec'd in strength stance. Embarrassing.
I took my Guardian (5 Keen Blade + Hemmorage and a 2H Axe) out to play around after checking the Hunter. I'm not at all surprised at this post.

[Scatha the Worm]

I would say that rather than unintentional, they are stealth nerfs... And the fact that ISB animation is stil bugged.... grrrrrrr for the love of gooooood, they'd rather fix stupid tooltips rather than that?

[Divona]

I as main hunter player agree that hunters dps went roof in Moria, but instead lowering weapons dps around 20% (confirmed in usa forum) they also nerfed most our skills and also traits. Power consume went up also like they did back in old vol 1 (SoA) times.

But main reason im posting is one trait that maybe broken also now, and that is one i often use so i could hit mobs instead getting beaten up:

I tested a number of times if hitting Needful Haste while being traited for Resolute Aim would prevent the induction from being set back, and sure enough, it wasn't set back. I tried this again today [Book 7] (as I was being beat up by many goblins ) but, alas! It no longer seemed to work. A single hit by a goblin would interrupt the induction. I was wondering if any other Huntsmen hunters also noticed the same thing?

Did they really broke hunter class? Its clear they have done this in past so people would roll other classes and level them by making sure customers will play long this game.

[MéLAnoR]

..


Did they really broke hunter class? Its clear they have done this in past so people would roll other classes and level them by making sure customers will play long this game.a little help ? here you go
(http://community.codemasters.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1158)

and also check these funny posts
there are lots of knee jerk rxn on forums :
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=255720

[Sidamos]

From the time I've played it kinda looks like that every class is almost on par with each
other if it comes to solo gaming. That means for the solo game every class kills as fast
as the other. That's abit confusing but actually a logical step.

However how this looks for groups and raids that's a totally diffrent story. I mean a tank
won't run around then witha 2h and a minstrel won't be in warspeech and a LM probably
won't run around in MonF or whatever and so on.

So it seems a raid can be filled with every other class so long you have a MT and MH for
the instance. That's kinda abit like in WoW but it's a deep cut to the known gameplay.

Now the good question is: intended or made by mistake ?

[Scappydog]

Its always been the problem. Trying to balance solo play with what you are supposed to do in group play. If your classes all have a fairly equal solo play kill rate, it then becomes a problem for who does what in Fellowships.

I saw it pre-MoM, Minstrels who wanted to dps in a group instead of heal.

" Hang on, let me kill this mob first, then I'll heal you...oops!!!"

Guardians who liked their damage.

" Are you sure you should be tanking with a 2 hander? "

Not every player, but enough to make it noticeable. This I suspect is what will happen again, people will stop playing their defined fellowship role because of the dps they can now do.

I really am glad I never pug anymore and only join kin/alliance groups.

What this and other games need are skills that allow you to solo content on a par with other classes, but become inactive if you join a fellow of 3 of more.

This is almost a complete rerun of events post SoA launch, except that for us in this case, the re-balancing is coming in one huge lump with bugs attached, instead of downward tweaks every few months.

[OMWiener]

furthermore, the more classes a game has, the more balancing it needs and thus more dev resources. I actually liked our little group of 7 classes tbh ^^

[Sidamos]

So long it won't be more than 9, it's ok...

However I think it's more that the content runs with the classes and not the classes
with the content. Not that MT & MH is enough...

[Yorky]

well there are some classes surviving that still :)
anyways you ll be farmed by bas in book 7 good luck with that.
we ll see what happens with pve.

This is beyond priceless, a hunter crying about being farmed by a ranged class... oh dear.

And pray, why do you think you will be farmed? (Please, please don't mention stacking DoTs).

[MéLAnoR]

This is beyond priceless, a hunter crying about being farmed by a ranged class... oh dear.

And pray, why do you think you will be farmed? (Please, please don't mention stacking DoTs).
good job quoting sentences and making biased comments :clap:

* * *
skipping the mp junky above here are some initial findings :
block parry evade miss resist from mobs are found out noticable where the release notes said that they lowered the bpe miss resist rates but it turned out either wrong or there is stg going wierd with hunter skills ( stealth nerf to RoT premoria anyone?)
its funny that devs defended dps nerf by decreased morale ( which is actually %3 on lvlv 60 mobs vs at least %30 dps nerf to class and yet they said the miss resist and bpe rate is reduced on mobs ; hmm itneresting - are you lying to your customers or implementing the patch not tested enough with broken features?)


Some players claim that their devastating crit rate is reduced but no obvious proof of that so better take screenshots of your pre book 7 stats now.

will post later on with more obective infos.

[Scatha the Worm]

Summarizing the nerfs specific to the hunter class:

- 3rd shot of Improved Swift Bow aproximately halved in damage.
- Bow of the Righteous power regeneration reduced efficiency in about 25%.
- Quick Shot dubious nerf, but overall reduction in 40% damage.
- Quality of Mercy trait critical multiplier halved.
- Bowmaster set bonus (3) of +%Bow Critical Mutiplier halved.
- Bowmaster set bonus (4) of +%Strength Damage halved.

New Bugs:
- Bow chants and oils dropping randomly before timer expires and when zoning.
- Resolute Aim no longer works properly (induction setbacks happening anyway).

Old Bugs Remaining:
- Improved Swift Bow animation pause between induction bar completion and skill launch on bows without oils and xbows with oils.

Miscelaneous Issues:
- Hail of Arrows trait, that gives a bonus 3600 critical rating for Rain of Arrows, won't go over the hard cap of 15% critical chance.
- Shot through the Heart trait, that gives a bonus 1200 critical rating for Heartseeker, won't go over the hard cap of 15% critical chance.

Just to inform the crowd that randomly spawns here saying "the weapon DPS nerf is ok, live with it", that's not all of it for the hunter.

[Viikuna]

Yes! More nerfs please. I might get lucky and all the FotM rerollers might leave the class (hunter was the first class i created without knowing anything about the game) and be happy to level my cute hobbit hunter without seeing 2/3 of people being a hunters. :)

[Imbavince]

well the US-crowd does not seem to be happy about it at all, now that bk7 is live. While soloing you, as a hunter, can still manage, many people claim it is not fun anymore.
Crafting Instances seem to be hostile to ranged classes, since it contains of narrow space and pulling multimobs.

Since it went live about 10 "This sucks..."-Threads were created ;-) Many people believe we are being nerfed to bits.
Oh and everybody is still running 4BM and S:S in order to dish out at least a bit damage. Threat Management presents no problem any longer. With a tank you can fire away as you like, threat is the tank's problem. Just what I've heard and seen so far.

[OMWiener]

A lot of the counter arguments on the us-forums, involve running LoS or killing Lorien orcs, which are pointless. I'm not really concerned about our ability to solo, we've never really been good at in the past and i've already accepted that. My grief is in the difference with other classes. My fear is (although not really confirmed by hard data) that LM/RK are too close to us damage-wise or even surpass us now.

Furthermore a lot of RKs are saying how rare those crits are for EC and as a hunter i more then understand. But it was the same for us Pre-B7. You think we were doing 3k+ damage every 2 min without using breach finder chants/Burn hot/HS/4 BM traits? no. You think we didn't have to specialize specifically for that kind of damage?

Another argument from RKs= Our damage relies on crits.. And ours doesn't? That's why we get a trait to increase crit chance (unlike champs), trait line with increased crit multipliers and legacies to increase crit multiplier.

Furthermore, hunters did do a lot of damage pre-B7 in S:S. That is completely worhtless in groups. In endurance we did about 20% less damage ie not that far from other classes.

This is not a whine post against the hunter changes (as it doesn't help anyway), it's a whine post against all the false arguments against the hunters. Sure we did high numbers with 4BM traits and in S:S. That meant absolutely nothing in most groups.

[Sidamos]

Miscelaneous Issues:
- Hail of Arrows trait, that gives a bonus 3600 critical rating for Rain of Arrows, won't go over the hard cap of 15% critical chance.
- Shot through the Heart trait, that gives a bonus 1200 critical rating for Heartseeker, won't go over the hard cap of 15% critical chance.


Bonus by Skills bypasses caps.

[Imbavince]

well never traited heartseeker...but as far as rain of arrows is concerned, it seems to be working as intended. but of course nobody can show data to back this up...

oh and i agree with omwiener...totally true. could quote it but I'm just too lazy ;-)

Seems that we can only do proper dmg in S:S with basic skills costing up to 200power...
on a side note to RKs, while I believe the 6.5k crit screen on the US-Forums is a once in a lifetime occurance (as all the screens of hunters posted on the forums were as well), I fear that they might fulfill the role we were supposed to play: the glass cannon.

Also a runekepper can fill up more roles in a group as an hunter now: He can be a very good DD, as well as a versatile healer, wthout having to trait specially for it or buying/crafting items to fulfill any of these roles.
A hunter either decent does dmg or does very good cc (Not as good as a LM though). He can't do both at once.
And yes I know the RK has to attune to heal or doing dmg but he can switch while in combat if need be.
Apart from that I'm fine with RK damage since they are supposed to be DDs as well, so they should be between us and champs in that department.

[Mcginty]

Also a runekepper can fill up more roles in a group as an hunter now: He can be a very good DD, as well as a versatile healer, wthout having to trait specially for it or buying/crafting items to fulfill any of these roles.
A hunter either decent does dmg or does very good cc (Not as good as a LM though). He can't do both at once.
And yes I know the RK has to attune to heal or doing dmg but he can switch while in combat if need be.
Apart from that I'm fine with RK damage since they are supposed to be DDs as well, so they should be between us and champs in that department.

Actually the new traits make a HUGE difference to RK roles. Without at least 3 traits in lightening you WILL not EVER get those big numbers people have fixated on (those crits happen so unreliably I can't rely on them) But by going for those 3 traits you miss out on other stuff and won't heal as well so effectively nerf yourself. In BK7 the RK is encouraged to specialise which he couldn't do in MoM as the trait trees where borked.

-So trait for very random big crits in Epic Conclusion (Storm) - be poor at healing and DOTs.
-Trait for sustained damage over time (fire) - be poor at healing and Crits
-Trait for Healing - be poor at damage.

Clearly this is relative. Being poor in this case still means we can still do it ok. But we can't do everything at once as we CAN'T normally switch easily when in battle! RK cannot do damage AND heal at the same time. Sure we have a Trait to switch to passive but really not as effective as people are saying. Still going to take time to build up potency even in BK7

And our CC is **** poor - no really: 5-10 sec (morelike 2-7sec) and a 2-10% chance IF we crit and traited for lightening and have a lightening stone. I play a Hunter as well - trust me there is no comparison. It is very useful though agreed but situational.

All that has changed is Rks are now (by the Dev own admission) where they should have been at MoM release. We were doing less damage than Burglars before BK7 (except for the rare and totally misleading crits being reported)- bit pants for a class described as a Nuker on the log-in page and as a glass cannon by Turbine.

[Fuin]

Actually the new traits make a HUGE difference to RK roles. Without at least 3 traits in lightening you WILL not EVER get those big numbers people have fixated on (those crits happen so unreliably I can't rely on them) But by going for those 3 traits you miss out on other stuff and won't heal as well so effectively nerf yourself

Are those 3 traits nerfing healing output or other skills, like LM DPS set shortens their mezz to 5 seconds? If not then You have to understand quite simple thing. Every class have to slot traits to be really effective in given area, hunters have to do so with bowmaster traits to do damage, Loremasters have to slot DPS traits to do damage, Cappies have to slot healing traits to heal, Wardens have to slot shield traits to tank. If not they are effectively nerfing themselves. See the resemblance? Furthermore 3 traits leave You 4 spaces left enough for healing/utility ones.

In book 7 Turbine did what I didn't wanted(though I expected they will go the easy way) and nerfed hunter damage instead just rebalancing ranged combat and mobs health/mitigations. Hunters should have stay king of DPS because it's really their only way to help the FS. And it seems like devs just like to nerf too much just in case, they did it with captains(oh In Harms Way is too good because of DPS - nerf DPS and IHW) and with hunters(DPS is too good lets nerf weapons and lets nerf skills too). And out of the blue RK appears with better bubble and almost as good DPS and You guessed healing/rezzing and some buffing. And hearing unbelivable stories about *whole* 30-60s to switch between DPS and 2nd best healer in game is really shocking. Damn I wish my hunter can switch from bowmaster to CC/trapping in 1 minute when I know CC will be handy in next encounter in instance. Problem is RK DPS shouldn't get nowhere near hunter as RK offers much more to group then hunter.

[OMWiener]

Actually the new traits make a HUGE difference to RK roles. Without at least 3 traits in lightening you WILL not EVER get those big numbers people have fixated on (those crits happen so unreliably I can't rely on them) But by going for those 3 traits you miss out on other stuff and won't heal as well so effectively nerf yourself. In BK7 the RK is encouraged to specialise which he couldn't do in MoM as the trait trees where borked.

See the post above and my previous post. Everyone has to make sacrifices to specialize into something, so your argument doesn't stand. You think we had 4K+ heartseekers every 10 min? no we didn't. But turbine thought these numbers were too big anyway, why would they allow it on an RK?

Furthermore remember that RK damage isn't dependent on weapon dps (if i'm incorrect i apologise). Wether they are wielding a first age or third age stone doesn't have a direct effect upon their dps. Hunters who don't have a first age yet are however even more screwed. An average hunter with average gear will probably struggle even more to keep up with the RK.

I'm not saying the RK didn't need buffs, but both buffing a class while nerfing all others is always asking for trouble.

[Sidamos]

You need to understand that the basic healing of the RK is rather low compared to a RK
which has 4+ traits in the healing line. More than any other class - and I have 5 L60
now - the outcome of a RK depends on the class trait setup.

First the RK has 1 CC skill which got "nerfed" and stated by ZC is actually more designed
to be a panic button. A durartion of mid 7,5s (traited 12,5s) I don't really call a CC.

Second there is some diffrences between a hunter and a rk. Damage wise it might be
no diffrence to take 2 RKs instead of 2 Hunters but I would rather take 1 hunter and 1 rk.
The hunter has a few significant advantages over the rk. For example try to take aggro
of the minstrel with a hunter or a RK.

The thing with B7 is that a group which is settled in healing/tanking/support has a
greater choice. Instead of calling for just for a hunter/champ they gonna call for a hunter/
champ or RK. It's something you need to live with.

Actually ZC has it pretty easy to balance out the damage he just needs to tone down the
crit multipliers.

@OMWeiner
yep as RK you only invest points into legacies and not into dps. I even use the L58 crit craft
atm.

A good thing about B7 is that a 2nd age weapon is more or less easy to get.

I think I died on my RK 2 times more from L50 to L60 than on my 4 other classes togather...
tho Burglar and LM haven't died once that way...oO

[Orthelian]

runekeeper FTW :P

Win! ^^

(10 Characters)

[OMWiener]

Second there is some diffrences between a hunter and a rk. Damage wise it might be
no diffrence to take 2 RKs instead of 2 Hunters but I would rather take 1 hunter and 1 rk.
The hunter has a few significant advantages over the rk. For example try to take aggro
of the minstrel with a hunter or a RK.

The thing with B7 is that a group which is settled in healing/tanking/support has a
greater choice. Instead of calling for just for a hunter/champ they gonna call for a hunter/champ or RK. It's something you need to live with.

I'm sorry, but a hunter having to take aggro from a ministrel is the result of a lazy guard/champ/CC. They have much better skills to deal with that then we do. A hunter taking aggro is a solution to a crap situation that shouldn't happen and doesn't really happen that often (imo)

And for me, it's not about getting a spot. It's about actually feeling usefull in a group. If both an RK and a hunter are in the group, i fail to see my usefullness compared to his debuffs/buffs/dps/aoe/healing. In MoM we have dps/cc/travel and cc is totally borked in MoM.

[Sidamos]

Which buffs ? The poison or wound blocker which don't even work properly ?
Debuffs *cough* - They aren't that great and they are power drainers.
Aoe ? RKs are so gimped like burglars about that...

It kinda falls down to dps/cc/survivance to dps/healing/glass tho hunters can do
both at once. A RK can only do either damage or heals.

[Imbavince]

well you know hunters cc works with legendaries and consumables (quite expensive ones). With the complete ToF Traitline, we got borked dps, and not even then are we able to keep a mob mezzed the whole time...CC is good as it is yet not that useful in a group. I would rather take a burglar on for CC. having an add mezzed constantly delivers better cc, in my opinion, than being able to root, daze a couple of seconds or fear a mob...

[OMWiener]

Which buffs ? The poison or wound blocker which don't even work properly ?
Debuffs *cough* - They aren't that great and they are power drainers.
Aoe ? RKs are so gimped like burglars about that...

It kinda falls down to dps/cc/survivance to dps/healing/glass tho hunters can do
both at once. A RK can only do either damage or heals.

I don't wanna discuss the weaknesses of the hunter tbh. All i'm gonna say is this: CC in MoM? Laughable at best, healing is a more important game mechanic, especially in MoM.

Anyway, no use in speculating. I'll test some things myself when the patch is here, but if it turns out the RK outdamages us, you'll see me again :P

[Sidamos]

Well I played in ToF a few days to try it out. It's abit strange. However it wasn't
that bad. Actually it was a way better than expected.
It doesn't really matter which other 2 traits you use because you play constantly in
in strength stance. So compared to an archer who uses endurance in groups the
damage diffrence was only that I couldn't use pen-shot. For that you kinda spam QS.
and the damage diffrence between QS and pen isn't so big.

Yea well with the reduced damage I hope CC will become abit more valuable
againl. Tbh tho, I still don't get it how epic they failed with MoM, damage and
content. I mean that could have been known. Whoever played the beta
server knew it...It's better ppl cry about too difficult content than too easy
content. Too difficult you can fix, too easy ....sucks...

[MéLAnoR]

imagine a hunter trying a trapper setup with endurance stance in a group :)
your ISB will hit barely 100 then.
excuse me what is your auto attack hits with those shiny runes?
you think we run with 4 bowsman and burn hot every 10 secs with 20 k power in groups right?
what makes me upset is nopt that rk taking our role ; actually id be glad to drop to number 2 dpser in game ; take our accursed role pls but what ****es me off is that the otehr 2 sets are absoultely junk now.
and chhosing 4 bowsman for a group run is a hutnard thing.
i guess best set will be 4 huntsmen to reduce inductions even if it kills your damage per hit and get either 3 bowsman or 2 bm plus 1 trapper as deep concentration for power.
yes now every idiot must have icpr again as we re becomine peww peww clones thanks to turbine who said moria would bring versatility and uniqueness.

[Sidamos]

nvm........

[Mcginty]

See the post above and my previous post. Everyone has to make sacrifices to specialize into something, so your argument doesn't stand. You think we had 4K+ heartseekers every 10 min? no we didn't. But turbine thought these numbers were too big anyway, why would they allow it on an RK?

Furthermore remember that RK damage isn't dependent on weapon dps (if i'm incorrect i apologise). Wether they are wielding a first age or third age stone doesn't have a direct effect upon their dps. Hunters who don't have a first age yet are however even more screwed. An average hunter with average gear will probably struggle even more to keep up with the RK.

I'm not saying the RK didn't need buffs, but both buffing a class while nerfing all others is always asking for trouble.

There are also Minstrels complaining we Heal better than them as well??? Utter Tosh!

In point of fact: I wasn't arguing.
Just pointed out some stuff to a post. Interpret it as my endorsement of the changes if you will but you'd be wrong as it wasn't my opinion. My opinion is it is overall a good patch that resolves several outstanding issues and levels the playing field somewhat.

why would they allow it on an RK?
They don't allow it on the RK either iirc.

I really don't understand why people are walking around with massive erections and fixations over these damn numbers - they, the crit numbers, are not that informative, fun yeah! but tell us nothing about either class. Is all this griping really just down to chirlish hurt feelings and ego? Taken out context numbers can be made to mean and support any old rubbish - look at almost any politican.

What do these crits mean as far as the game overall plays anyway? Nothing really.

But why does it bother you that the Runekeeper is now so close behind?
Hunters, if the figures on US forums are to be believed (and ofc they are no more reliable than the boards over here), are still ahead on single target DPS. Sure they don't have the numbers they had before BUT they still do the damage and do more of it than anyone else. Isn't that enough?

Funny thing is. . .alot of RKs where griping about being not powerful enough. Tactical damage was always due for a buff as stated by Turbine. Runekeepers, being a tactical class, got a buff they needed (When a Guardian can out DPS you, you know something is wrong) as Turbine had also stated the RK was not working as designed.
Yet they still don't surpass Hunters in DPS.

But there are still, aleast, 2 US Hunters who have stated/posted it is now their aim to get the Runekeeper nerfed in the next patch one way or another!!
How childish is that?

[Mcginty]

Problem is RK DPS shouldn't get nowhere near hunter as RK offers much more to group then hunter.

The problem was Runekeepers were not being invited to groups before as they couldn't do enough damage and they couldn't heal properly (it was presumed by many). So if we offer so much to a group how come the lack of invites? Yeah! That was real fun.

But it didn't matter because it didn't effect you I guess?

[OMWiener]

I really don't understand why people are walking around with massive erections and fixations over these damn numbers - they, the crit numbers, are not that informative, fun yeah! but tell us nothing about either class. Is all this griping really just down to chirlish hurt feelings and ego? Taken out context numbers can be made to mean and support any old rubbish - look at almost any politican.

First of all - Chill. I wasn't attacking you in anyway. I was merely pointing out that those numbers were taken out of context for us as well, but we still got nerfed partially because of them (too high crits).

But why does it bother you that the Runekeeper is now so close behind?
Hunters, if the figures on US forums are to be believed (and ofc they are no more reliable than the boards over here), are still ahead on single target DPS. Sure they don't have the numbers they had before BUT they still do the damage and do more of it than anyone else. Isn't that enough?

Could you point me to these numbers. I haven't seen them yet and would be interested to see what you base these conclusion on ("more damage then anyone else"). Is that in strength stance (which is gonna be worthless for groups in B7 cuz of power cost) or endurance/precision?

Yet they still don't surpass Hunters in DPS.

Again, what are you basing this on?

But there are still, aleast, 2 US Hunters who have stated/posted it is now their aim to get the Runekeeper nerfed in the next patch one way or another!!
How childish is that?

It is quite childish indeed. I have no intention of getting you nerfed. If anything i want to see us buffed ever so slightly again ie undo some of the changes to hunters.

The problem was Runekeepers were not being invited to groups before as they couldn't do enough damage and they couldn't heal properly (it was presumed by many). So if we offer so much to a group how come the lack of invites? Yeah! That was real fun.

But it didn't matter because it didn't effect you I guess?

Again, Chill. I think everybody agrees RKs needed buffs. We just fear that we will be the ones not getting invites. I'm sure that is not your or the devs intention either, is it now?

[Sidamos]

I'm not so certain that the crits were a reason to reduce our dps. Neither PvMP played
a big role imo.

I think DD knows very well how to see those crit hits. I also assume he pretty much
knows what had been the maximum. I think more that they have, unlike us, loggers
with which you can see kill speed, dps etc a true damage meter.

After analyzing these logs and probably also getting some feedback through forums,
they came to result to change the combat damage system again.

The only change I could think of which is related to PvMP is the class trait for MS to
reduce the critical damage, because the impact of this skill pve-wise is very small unlike
for pvmp.

[Mcginty]

Could you point me to these numbers.

Sure thing
Again, what are you basing this on?

Bk7 Runekeeper DPS parsing:

Not the best, but pretty decent. Using a +15% Chisel and these are the and my Legendary Stone and Sachel, and these are the legacies between them that could influence this data:

+39% Fury of Storm Critical
+10% Wrath of Fire Damage
+14% Writ of Fire Damage

4/3/0 Spec.

Library of Steel First Run, No Fire Skills, using a Priority Rotation of Essence of Storm > Scribe's Spark > Ceaseless Arguement.

All Orcs save one Summoner since I can't kill the last one if I want to reset the instance.

Lowest DPS = 4090 Damage in 23 Seconds (174.56 DPS)
Highest DPS = 4155 Damage in 10 Seconds (387.48 DPS)
Average DPS over all mobs save one Summoner and Excluding Elementals = 223.39 DPS

Library of Steel Second Run, Weaving in Writ of Fire and Distracting Flame and Shocking Words @ 3 Attunement into the Priority Lightning Rotation of EoS > SS > CA.

Lowest DPS = 4233 Damage in 25 Seconds (167.63 DPS)
Highest DPS = 3950 Damage in 15 Seconds (293.00 DPS)
Average DPS over all mobs save one Summoner and Excluding Elementals = 229.86 DPS

Library of Steel Third Run, Going all out, big cool downs, dropping EC every 30 seconds, etc. Not resetting Attunement between mobs purposefully, but had to stop once for power due to EC spam.

Highest EC = 1006 Damage
Lowest EC = 546 Damage
Lowest DPS = 4161 Damage in 20 Seconds (208.05 DPS)
Highest DPS = 4472 Damage in 13 Seconds (340.36 DPS)
Average DPS over all mobs save one Summoner and Excluding Elementals = 259.93

No matter what I did on my tests, my damage was really spikey as you can see, some fights I could end in 10 seconds with 3-4 lucky crits, and buffs from traits proccing, and on other fights I would get no crits and they could last up to 25 seconds.

No massive EC crits unfortunantly.

This isn't the best test, but until someone else really comes up with something better for me to do (I'm always up for suggestions) this is all I could think of on short notice, so, there you have it, that's what I got, if you want me to do more, just let me know.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=255942

As you can see. Not as HUGE as the outcry suggests. The average DPS being around 230. Agreed it is a small sample but until Bk7 comes over here not much more I can add.
I should point out out average pre-bk7 is only around 180DPS iirc.

Bk7 Hunter DPS parsing:

Here. . . .
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=255932
OP seems to be suggesting an average of 311.3638347 nearly a third higher. Sure the crits will effect this. But that's the point: They just don't happen that often to push the average up.

Ok these examples are not exhaustive - how can they be. Neither do they take into account subjective (i.e. it feels badly like a nerf) impressions of the overall changes in the patch.
But clearly I really don't think you Hunters have anything to worry about.
Just a shame they had to jig things this way as it has lead to a lot of misunderstanding and at worst, deliberate misinterpreting of the figures.

Again, Chill. I think everybody agrees RKs needed buffs. We just fear that we will be the ones not getting invites. I'm sure that is not your or the devs intention either, is it now?

Hey I'm cool :)
Spent a few hours (instead of working) trawling and getting annoyed by the US boards and I was generalising massively.
No personal digs where intended. Sorry for that.

Now! Hunters! Chill out :)

[Imbavince]

no everybody is cool with RKs and their DMG, or should be at least, they needed the buff...and wanting another class to be nerfed is stupid, though the claim was proposed constantly in the last months pointing at us.

I honestliy believe that huntrs will be in trouble in the upcoming book though...And i do not like this...

[Mcginty]

no everybody is cool with RKs and their DMG, or should be at least, they needed the buff...and wanting another class to be nerfed is stupid, though the claim was proposed constantly in the last months pointing at us.

I honestliy believe that huntrs will be in trouble in the upcoming book though...And i do not like this...

There has indeed been a stupid amount of 'huntorz r OP nerf plx' whines since MoM. Shame. To be honest Hunter, or champ DPS never really bothered me. Fair play to you.

But will stop hijacking the thread now :)
Thought someone was complaining Rks were OP now when clearly we are not. Just been made playable again. Really hope it's not as bad as expected when BK7 comes out - Some US Hunters (not all tbh) liked it? :/

[Lenin_]

That is not much we can change now, but since there is gap between US and EU book release we have the time to come up with some numbers.

There is this nice tool - Cstats - it is like a combat log parser and helps players to compare and cross-check the damage or healing done during encounters. It is not a damage meter or a bragging tool, all the info there is only about your own performance, so you can try various equipment/trait setups and see what works best for you in numbers.
http://www.codeplex.com/cstatsAtm I'm running The library of steel multiple times with different builds and after book 7 release I will do the same, and then compare the results. It is a nice place for such a experiment because the mobs there are always the same and you can repeat the run as many times you want if you "unfortunately" fail to finish it :)

The only problem is that the results will be legitimate only for solo play and the in-fellowship performance will be blank. For that I would need to run instances multiple times with the precisely same class setup and buffs... and that is just too much for me to be bothered with.

[Scatha the Worm]

Bonus by Skills bypasses caps.
The regretable and proven by numbers truth (http://forums.lotro.com/showpost.php?p=3364409&postcount=41 I'm willing to test that out myself since the sample size is too low, but still...) is that direct +% increases bypass cap, +ratings compute into the cap sistem, even if it's just for one skill.
As you can see. Not as HUGE as the outcry suggests. The average DPS being around 230.
OP seems to be suggesting \[Hunter DPS\] an average of 311.3638347 nearly a third higher.

Ok these examples are not exhaustive - how can they be. Neither do they take into account subjective (i.e. it feels badly like a nerf) impressions of the overall changes in the patch.
But clearly I really don't think you Hunters have anything to worry about.
Just a shame they had to jig things this way as it has lead to a lot of misunderstanding and at worst, deliberate misinterpreting of the figures.


Well, not that it isn't fun to argue against someone's opinion, but I see some weak points to your conclusions beyond my general opinion on BK 7 ;)

Like many others I don't care much for soloing ability, or how many mobs at a time I can take... whatever, I know I'll be just fine. Sustained DPS is the issue, and this tests covertly bring up hard data to be actually worried about.

First issue is LoS is a test of burst DPS (because of the length of the fights) in a soloing scenario (traits, skill rotation, etc). As such, not really the best grounds to measure up to Hunter performance in groups.

Also, I don't know a RK damage skill rotation, but a Hunter one during a sustained DPS fight is quite different of the one you would use will putting down a single mob. Basically, the DPS a Hunter can output during a single encounter of less than 30 seconds is probably higher (assuming equal stances) than that of a sustained fight (where I would try to manage focus buildup, no use of MS, etc.).

From the little knowledge I have of a RKs dynamics, a RK can't start, by design, with full nuking skills or deal the best DPS skills, because of attuenement. Hence I would assume you can perform better a bit longer into the fight than just as it starts. At this point I would be grateful if some experienced RK player can tell me if I'm correct or not.

So, back to see the numbers, that Hunter DPS was calculated (although in the post itself it isn't mentioned I would bet it was run in S:S) with the bonus +15% Str damage.

So in Endurance, drop 15% of the DPS rating calculated there, from the 311 original DPS you get 264 DPS. I know a hunter's sustained DPS, by skill rotation changes, would drop a little more, and I would think a RK can do a little better, but let's assume they don't.

EDIT: Just found a champs LoS DPS run... -_- http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=256225

Hunter: 264 DPS (311 DPS in S:S)
RK: 230 DPS
Champ: 322 DPS <------- New Stuff, no comments

So a RK, for this case alone, sits at 87% efficiency of a Hunter's DPS. That is too close IMO. Consider skill rotation changes for a long fight + power problems and the difference gets even smaller, if not inverted.

Of course these are all premature conclusions at best, but what you might call preliminary number crunching just confirms what we all feared.

Regarding RKs trade-offs and healing/DPSing abilities... I do know you guys can't heal AND DPS same time, and I also know that specced in one, the other suffers greatly. The point is, you CAN switch mid fight, into at least a moderate healer to help up, I've seen it. With the low impact CC has now, and if those numbers proove themselves in further tests, it will be a fact that RKs are more useful and desireable in group content. It will come true again that the only thing a hunter can do for the group when the **** hits the fan, is to Ditch Friends and cheer them up when they spawn alongside ;)

Now, considering the discussion about crits... The biggest and outrageous numbers that have been subject of several degrees of discussion in the forums for the past 4 months needed of at least 5 traits in Bowmaster line + legendary, and depended on a crit chance every 6 minutes(if Burn Hot was traited, if not 10m) at best. And even when I consider myself a good hunter, with nice tho not best gear, the few times I tryed to get a high crit depending only on my buffs and consumables (full bowmaster, traited BH, bow chant, battle scroll, nice little 3rd age maxed bow with crit legacies), I barely got above 7.2k (on any sort of mob that matters, not a lvl 1 critter or the grodbog bugs). That will now be barely hitting 5k. Anything more probably has outside buffs/debuffs involved. Now the difference might grow nicely on a first age drop with crit + HS legacy, but I wouldn't ever spend a point in it ;) And it still wouldn't get that much farther up.

The point is, the trade-off in traits made by hunters to generate those crits was even higher, for what I read in this very thread, than what RKs have to make now for their own high numbers. RKs may have smaller chances to have one of those, but I'm not saying RKs shouldn't have high crits, all the more for the better. The points is, why were our crits revisited and nerfed, and a RKs suddenly gets them on the same update?
Still, this whole discussion about high numbers is unimportant to me, since at least for hunters, I am quite sure speccing for huge HS and MS numbers is counterproductive in most of the gameplay.

[Mcginty]

Well, not that it isn't fun to argue against someone's opinion, but I see some weak points to your conclusions beyond my general opinion on BK 7 ;) Haha I don't doubt it lol :)

Like many others I don't care much for soloing ability, or how many mobs at a time I can take... whatever, I know I'll be just fine. Sustained DPS is the issue, and this tests covertly bring up hard data to be actually worried about.
First issue is LoS is a test of burst DPS (because of the length of the fights) in a soloing scenario (traits, skill rotation, etc). As such, not really the best grounds to measure up to Hunter performance in groups.
Actually I wholly agree - the figures where meant to be illustrative not definitive. I'm aware of the short-comings of drawing concrete results from such a self-limited data set.

Also, I don't know a RK damage skill rotation, but a Hunter one during a sustained DPS fight is quite different of the one you would use will putting down a single mob. Basically, the DPS a Hunter can output during a single encounter of less than 30 seconds is probably higher (assuming equal stances) than that of a sustained fight (where I would try to manage focus buildup, no use of MS, etc.).

From the little knowledge I have of a RKs dynamics, a RK can't start, by design, with full nuking skills or deal the best DPS skills, because of attuenement. Hence I would assume you can perform better a bit longer into the fight than just as it starts. At this point I would be grateful if some experienced RK player can tell me if I'm correct or not.

You are correct. We hit like wet flannels un-attuned.

(edit) removed chunk to reduce post length. see Scatha's thorough post above (edit)

The point is, the trade-off in traits made by hunters to generate those crits was even higher, for what I read in this very thread, than what RKs have to make now for their own high numbers. RKs may have smaller chances to have one of those, but I'm not saying RKs shouldn't have high crits, all the more for the better. The points is, why were our crits revisited and nerfed, and a RKs suddenly gets them on the same update?

Not sure either but I'm sure it wasn't personal :)
Well look on the brightside: Hunters had it for the last 3/4 months but now RKs are going to have to endure the ill-informed ridiculous 'Overpowered', 'Oh noes! nerf plx' rants from emo-raging creeps and DPS junkies for the next 3 months. Sheesh.

Still, this whole discussion about high numbers is unimportant to me, since at least for hunters, I am quite sure speccing for huge HS and MS numbers is counterproductive in most of the gameplay.

Again agreed :)

[Fuin]

The problem was Runekeepers were not being invited to groups before as they couldn't do enough damage and they couldn't heal properly (it was presumed by many). So if we offer so much to a group how come the lack of invites? Yeah! That was real fun.

But it didn't matter because it didn't effect you I guess?
First of all I ran Skumfil easy mode as unusal captain main tank with even more unusual team of 2 burgs, hunter, lm and a RK. That made me quite convinced that RK is 2nd best healer just after ministrel and i'm confident to go with RK as main healer. And nope we weren't GGGBB on FMs ;)

Now the matter why RK wasn't invited isn't the concern here as it was definetaly not due to being not usefull and weak. You can't really expect that class which came with expansion(same with warden) will be well known and popular like SoA ones. There can be quite few reasons but I think it's bad place to discuss them.

Hunter is a DPS class and damage is everything he has to offer. We have CC and it's very good(unlike sometimes hunters claim) but mainly for soloing where it bumps up our survivability. In instances with groups hunters CC skills are for messy situations, where well aimed trap or mez shot can make a diffrence. I'd never go as main CC on hunter or never took one as leader as it's far to unreliable for longer fights.

So if the hunter a single DPS class with some CC(as group utility skill) compares himself with RK which do only slightly less damage, has buffs and can switch to healing before some tough part of instance(like boss fight or even phase in boss fight) the outcome is pretty obvious. It's somewhat like with guardians vs champ, champs just brings more to the table and tanks good enough.

[Erhnam]

excuse me what is your auto attack hits with those shiny runes?
Around 70. Melee. Most of us don't even have it active, so it doesn't interfere with our casting :P

From the little knowledge I have of a RKs dynamics, a RK can't start, by design, with full nuking skills or deal the best DPS skills, because of attuenement. Hence I would assume you can perform better a bit longer into the fight than just as it starts. At this point I would be grateful if some experienced RK player can tell me if I'm correct or not.

As you said, we need to build attunement. But not only that. We also need to build our dots, and that takes some time too. And the funny thing it happened a lot to me.. once I got a T3 writ with its corresponging Essence of Flame, and a few other non relevevant stuff...plof!! The boss cleans all his debfus. Need to start again. I have seen it a LOT. This is talking about a fire build, the correct build for instance/raid dps. And with the fire build, our contribution to the group for trash bosses is less than optimal


Champ: 322 DPS <------- New Stuff, no comments

Now thats serious, because it was ST. There should be no way a champ could outdps a hunter in a single target enviroment


More stuff: We dont have buffs. Really. I dont know where people got the idea that we can buff people. The only thing we can do is prevent one poison OR wound every minute (btw, works half of the time, specially the wound one >_<), and a lightning/fire/ice attack every 30s (depending on the equipped stone).


One thing I liked a lot after reading both US hunter forum and this one. EU hunters are much more mature than US one :) A lot less QQ'ing, more open to talk about the matter :)

[Sidamos]

More stuff: We dont have buffs. Really. I dont know where people got the idea that we can buff people. The only thing we can do is prevent one poison OR wound every minute (btw, works half of the time, specially the wound one >_<), and a lightning/fire/ice attack every 30s (depending on the equipped stone).

qft


One thing I liked a lot after reading both US hunter forum and this one. UE hunters are much more mature than US one :) A lot less QQ'ing, more open to talk about the matter :)

so true - lol

[OMWiener]

More stuff: We dont have buffs. Really. I dont know where people got the idea that we can buff people. The only thing we can do is prevent one poison OR wound every minute (btw, works half of the time, specially the wound one >_<), and a lightning/fire/ice attack every 30s (depending on the equipped stone).

Although I was probably not right to call it buffing, I really like the prevent death skill. From what I heard, I understand it isn't easy to use, but could be very powerfull in the right hands at the right time.

Furthermore, what is that lightning icon i sometimes have (out of interest)?

Champ: 322 DPS <------- New Stuff, no comments

You could interpret this in many ways imo. These are all LoS tests and with the reduced dps, it's not unimaginable the hunter in LoS will spend quite some time in melee range, getting hit. It hampers his inductions and thus his damage. I'm not saying this is what happened, but there's a good possibility it happened.

i would however like to see what happens when someone else tanks the mobs.

[Lenin_]

Just found a champs LoS DPS run...

Champ: 322 DPS <------- New Stuff, no comments


Well, I have not played as champ, but what if he cleared LoS by aggroing 2-3 mobs at the same time and using aoe attacks?
I mean, that is the way I imagine to play as a champ, so maybe that is why the dps is so above ours in this case.

[Flambergius]

Hunter is a DPS class and damage is everything he has to offer. We have CC and it's very good(unlike sometimes hunters claim) but mainly for soloing where it bumps up our survivability. In instances with groups hunters CC skills are for messy situations, where well aimed trap or mez shot can make a diffrence. I'd never go as main CC on hunter or never took one as leader as it's far to unreliable for longer fights.


I think many people underestimate the utility you can get out of the hunter secondary CC. While filling a DPS slot, hunter supports the main CC very well. I think this is obvious in the case where the main CC is burglar, but many people make the error of thinking that having a loremaster in fellowship makes hunter's CC redundant. Sure, you need to use the hunter's CC to extend what the loremaster can do, but tactically that is usually very useful. Also, two DPS hunters can combine their CC to fully control a mob (say, a troll) while still out-performing any other class in single target dps.

[Sidamos]

Like OM wrote it's abit tricky to compare those numbers. Also it needs to be proven
if 3 BM/4 MDJ or 4BM/3 MDJ is better. Also in solo a hunter now goes more into melee
which in groups shouldn't happen at all and in melee the dps drops significantly.

Comparing to the RKs is a difficult case,too. The dps of the Rk is closer if he doesn't let
the attunement drop to 0 but doing so he rans out of power. A RK can reach his best
perfermance versus high moral monsters but most bosses clean their debuff bar.

However atm it looks like a RK has 80-90% damage of a hunter. Considering that each
class needs their solo abilitiy, this looks pretty fair. Against champions it's really difficult
to say anything yet.

I would like seeing tests not only based on the dps but also on time. Like clean LoS
as fast as possible and compare the times of each class. In the end such a test would
show more about who does the most damage than pure damage parsing.

I know exactly my times I needed to clean LoS on several classes and I'm going to
compare them with the times I need in B7.

[Erhnam]

Although I was probably not right to call it buffing, I really like the prevent death skill. From what I heard, I understand it isn't easy to use, but could be very powerfull in the right hands at the right time.
It would be easier with B7, as the preventive buff will last 1min instead of the 30s. The bad point its that uses a lot of power and attunes 3 o 4 towards neutral. Is as powerfull as IC rez, no more, no less. The only advantage over rally! is that Do not fall this day is instant


Furthermore, what is that lightning icon i sometimes have (out of interest)? It may be the weapon of XXX (being XXX=lighnitning this time). I forgot about this skill. Its so bad I never use it, except for lowering my attunement if I need it :P Its a toggle-buff we can cast on anyone, it eats like 4power each second (this is why I never use it, thats a LOT of power), and depending on the runestone, the wielder of the weapon will gain a (very small) chance of refreshin a fire or ice Writ, or appliying a -ligthning resistance to the mob. The power cost along with the very small chance of the proc makes it a horrible skill :p



i would however like to see what happens when someone else tanks the mobs.
I want to run this test too. Ill try to get somre creep friends to stand still while being healed so we can test the DPS in a lapse of time, lets say 3-4mins. Or find some nice EM

[Davout]

We often use a hunter (maybe 2) in order to supplement the LM CC on the 2 leiutenents during the second boss fight in FG. LM root as they become active, then Hunter root after 28/29 seconds. We get nearly a minutes CC on the leiutenents this way with LM + hunter, and 1.5 minutes of roots with LM & 2x hunters.

This works well in DD as well to keep the word eaters locked as well.

[OMWiener]

I wouldn't say hunter CC isn't powerfull. It is quite powerfull indeed, but i would like to say four quite important things about this:

1) our primary goal is to dps. Doing CC involves cutting his dps in three *possible* ways:

a. traits
b. focus (for RoT, that could be used for other highly damaging skills)
c. attention (If an enemy to be CC locked, you need to be ready to use your own cc skill at the right time, this attention cannot be used to target the main target)

2) Most of our cc is not instant, unlike the burg riddle/lm root. It involves induction/gathering focus/long animation(RoT). Might not sound important, but if your playing ground is small, you need to lock enemies fast. You need preparation for hunter cc.

3) CC in MoM isn't very important (dev promised it would play an important role in b8 raid).

4) Our cc comes with a high cost, be that money/legendary/focus/possibility of adds.

I'm not saying i would like this changed. Our cc shouldn't be better then it already is, but it is not something i would rely on as a group leader unless i had no other choice, especially considering not everyone slots RoT/BA. And as a hunter i don't like to focus on it. For me, it's more a perk to make us better at solo instances.

[Scatha the Worm]

You could interpret this in many ways imo. These are all LoS tests and with the reduced dps, it's not unimaginable the hunter in LoS will spend quite some time in melee range, getting hit. It hampers his inductions and thus his damage. I'm not saying this is what happened, but there's a good possibility it happened.

i would however like to see what happens when someone else tanks the mobs.
While I agree on the melee part, those numbers are too much alike. On the tanking thing... I plan to set up a series of controlled tests, either with some standard high morale mob, or an overhealed creep, to parse data and take a look.

Anyway, I'm already planning on going full-time precision in groups to enhace DPS whatever I can... we'll see about power.
I think many people underestimate the utility you can get out of the hunter secondary CC. While filling a DPS slot, hunter supports the main CC very well. I think this is obvious in the case where the main CC is burglar, but many people make the error of thinking that having a loremaster in fellowship makes hunter's CC redundant. Sure, you need to use the hunter's CC to extend what the loremaster can do, but tactically that is usually very useful. Also, two DPS hunters can combine their CC to fully control a mob (say, a troll) while still out-performing any other class in single target dps.
A Hunter's support CC is practically made up of a single skill, RoT. And having our primary role taken away is the problem here. CC is not part of the discussion IMO.
Well, I have not played as champ, but what if he cleared LoS by aggroing 2-3 mobs at the same time and using aoe attacks?
I mean, that is the way I imagine to play as a champ, so maybe that is why the dps is so above ours in this case.
In the original post it is stated as a ST DPS test, and later an AoE test, so yep, no doubts about that.
Like OM wrote it's abit tricky to compare those numbers. Also it needs to be proven
if 3 BM/4 MDJ or 4BM/3 MDJ is better. Also in solo a hunter now goes more into melee
which in groups shouldn't happen at all and in melee the dps drops significantly.

Comparing to the RKs is a difficult case,too. The dps of the Rk is closer if he doesn't let
the attunement drop to 0 but doing so he rans out of power. A RK can reach his best
perfermance versus high moral monsters but most bosses clean their debuff bar.

However atm it looks like a RK has 80-90% damage of a hunter. Considering that each
class needs their solo abilitiy, this looks pretty fair. Against champions it's really difficult
to say anything yet.
Agreed, tho I still think that while LoS runs are bad tests for the numbers of sustained DPS, even back in SoA a Hunter would never fall behind a champ in damage versus an even level normal mob. And I don't think RKs should get any higher than 75%, top 80%, or our group usefullness/desirability drops much in comparison. Having a secondary healer if needed vs having an extra root once in a while... can't really compare.
More number crunching needed :/
We often use a hunter (maybe 2) in order to supplement the LM CC on the 2 leiutenents during the second boss fight in FG. LM root as they become active, then Hunter root after 28/29 seconds. We get nearly a minutes CC on the leiutenents this way with LM + hunter, and 1.5 minutes of roots with LM & 2x hunters.

This works well in DD as well to keep the word eaters locked as well.
Most bosses and boss related mobs are being made root-immune, though I don't know about the Lieutenants. I've never had to do it that way before anyway. And this current discussion is about sustained ST DPS.

[Arrgur]

I wouldn't say hunter CC isn't powerfull. It is quite powerfull indeed, but i would like to say four quite important things about this:

1) our primary goal is to dps. Doing CC involves cutting his dps in three *possible* ways:

a. traits
b. focus (for RoT, that could be used for other highly damaging skills)
c. attention (If an enemy to be CC locked, you need to be ready to use your own cc skill at the right time, this attention cannot be used to target the main target)


a. Rain of Thorns is the most vital CC skill probably (used in most instances for initial pulls on large groups) and it costs an entire 1 legendary trait. If you, like most others, have done instances prior to MoM then you've had this slotted and used it in the Rift for example for long time.

b. You regain that focus in a couple of seconds, 2 swift bows.

c. Attention? You need to be paying attention to the entire fight every time if you want to be really useful. Most other classes need to pay attention to the entire scene anyways, not focusing solely on the current Primary target. The guardian looks for mobs that he has lost the aggro off, the lore-master and burglar do same for CC, champion and captain keep an eye on the squishies ready to use their shouts to pull aggro off them and so on. Why the hunter should be exempt from this I have no idea. It's not like its an incredible strain to be spamming Quick shot, Swift Bow, Penetrating shot and repeat on the mob that is primary.

[OMWiener]

a. Rain of Thorns is the most vital CC skill probably (used in most instances for initial pulls on large groups) and it costs an entire 1 legendary trait. If you, like most others, have done instances prior to MoM then you've had this slotted and used it in the Rift for example for long time.

b. You regain that focus in a couple of seconds, 2 swift bows.

c. Attention? You need to be paying attention to the entire fight every time if you want to be really useful. Most other classes need to pay attention to the entire scene anyways, not focusing solely on the current Primary target. The guardian looks for mobs that he has lost the aggro off, the lore-master and burglar do same for CC, champion and captain keep an eye on the squishies ready to use their shouts to pull aggro off them and so on. Why the hunter should be exempt from this I have no idea. It's not like its an incredible strain to be spamming Quick shot, Swift Bow, Penetrating shot and repeat on the mob that is primary.

*sigh* I don't need someone else telling me how to play my hunter, especially in a condescending tone as yourself. I have a good knowledge of my hunter and the game mechanics. But i'll indulge and answer your points:

a. More then ever (with MoM we got 3 extra legendaries) is RoT a choice the hunter makes for himself. Wheter it is a vital CC skill is irrelevant if the hunter does not want to spec for CC, especially in one of his limited legendary slots.

If you had any knowledge of the hunter pre-Moria, you would know that RoT resisted too much to be of any use in SoA (unlike MoM where it got really good).

And the rift? Any respectable rift group would have a LM around (for Balrog disease, narns wounds, Thrangs wounds, etc). I fail to see with an LM in the rift, which fights/pulls i would need an unreliable RoT for...


b. Whether i can generate focus afterwards is irrelevant. I said i could use that same focus to generate a huge amount of damage. It's not only the focus that was lost, but the combination of damage and focus. Focus is very important to a hunter and 6 focus isn't something that should be discarded easily (actually that is 3 swift bows you need) as you just did.

c. First of all the things you just described involve looking at the movement of the mobs, which is easy as hell. In fact a ranged class has mostly a better overview of the battlefield than any other class. But this doesn't involve mere overview of the battlefield. It involves knowledge of the CD and duration of the applied CC in an effort to cc-lock him. I'm sure you don't expect all your fellowship members to know that, now do you? You have to time the re-appliance of the CC carefully to maximize it and as such for a short time you're not doing damage.

Second, like i mentioned, our cc isn't instant. So if we wish to cc-lock a mob, we have to prepare well in advance for this, ie we need to divert our attention away from our primary role ie you can't spam QS-PS-QS anymore for a short amount of time.

CC is something that works best when it can be cast instantly. So i'll restate: hunter cc is good, but i wouldn't rely on it unless i had no other choice.

Oh and i didn't say that other classes don't have these trade-offs. I was merely pointing out the costs of our cc, which are often forgotten.

[Scatha the Worm]

a. Rain of Thorns is the most vital CC skill probably (used in most instances for initial pulls on large groups) and it costs an entire 1 legendary trait. If you, like most others, have done instances prior to MoM then you've had this slotted and used it in the Rift for example for long time.

b. You regain that focus in a couple of seconds, 2 swift bows.

c. Attention? You need to be paying attention to the entire fight every time if you want to be really useful. Most other classes need to pay attention to the entire scene anyways, not focusing solely on the current Primary target. The guardian looks for mobs that he has lost the aggro off, the lore-master and burglar do same for CC, champion and captain keep an eye on the squishies ready to use their shouts to pull aggro off them and so on. Why the hunter should be exempt from this I have no idea. It's not like its an incredible strain to be spamming Quick shot, Swift Bow, Penetrating shot and repeat on the mob that is primary.
Ok, CC discussion asked for...

Hunter CC:
- Cry of the Predator: Beast fear 10s duration 1 minute cd.
- Distracting Shot: 10s mezz 3 minutes cd.
- Set trap: OOC trap 30s 1 minute cd.
- Bard's Arrow: Legendary trait 15s fear 30s cd.
- Rain of Thorns: Legendary trait 30s AoE root 3 minutes cd.

The first 3 are pretty much useless in group scenarios. Traps are unreliable and the mechanics are quite poor. The mezz is too shortand too long a cd to be of real use. Cry of the Predator... not many beasts around instances.

Bard's Arrow and RoT are the two important ones, tho Bard's Arrow and it's tendency to bring friends have gotten most hunters to be very wary of using it.
Rain of Thorns is mostly used to break apart large pulls into manageable stuff.

Again, 1 (and maybe a half) skill hardly makes up for a secondary role. And reliable group CC has to allow a mob to be pin-locked down and disabled, which a hunter can't do, not even heavily traited and with a 1st age legendary with capped legacy. Furthermore, Moria has rendered CC useless, and most bosses are being made CC immune.

[Flambergius]

A Hunter's support CC is practically made up of a single skill, RoT. And having our primary role taken away is the problem here. CC is not part of the discussion IMO.


I don't think anyone is disputing our primary role (DPS), nor that the cap between us and other classes, in that role, has grown significantly smaller. However, it is very much part of this discussion whether or not classes that are able to fill a DPS slot in a fellowship have any broad utility beyond DPS.

I would argue that hunter's CC, especially in secondary CC role, has sizable utility and is broadly on par with what the best (single-target) DPS class in the game should have. I am painfully aware that at the moment we don't actually know where we are compared to RKs in DPS role. While waiting to find out that one, it's good to consider that, for the guy filling the DPS slot, our secondary CC is actually much better thing to have than RK's ability to switch over to healing.

[OMWiener]

While waiting to find out that one, it's good to consider that, for the guy filling the DPS slot, our secondary CC is actually much better thing to have than RK's ability to switch over to healing.

In the setting we have now, I would disagree. CC in MoM is far from vital.

[Sidamos]

Well imo the only real CC class in LotRO is the Loremaster. A burglar has basically only riddle. Burglar is more an overall support class.

And I don't think RKs should get any higher than 75%, top 80%, or our group usefullness/desirability drops much in comparison. Having a secondary healer if needed vs having an extra root once in a while... can't really compare.
More number crunching needed :/


This depends on how much a RK needs to give up. A RK which is purely traited for damage
is a very gimped healer. I would even say a Cappy heals better then. The bonus you get
in the healing line of the RK is really huge.

[Flambergius]

Rain of Thorns is mostly used to break apart large pulls into manageable stuff.
...
And reliable group CC has to allow a mob to be pin-locked down and disabled


Ah, the disconnect is probably here. I know that my LM friends would disagree, but I view pin-locking mobs as needlessly fancy and brittle way. I understand that the LM enjoys disabling a particular mob for the duration of the fight, and that' fine, but it's not tactically necessary. To me CC is all about "the manageable stuff". AoE roots being the best way, of course, but mezz, fear, trap, slow, well, I like them all. The aim is really only to delay the mobs as long as is needed to deal with the previous ones. Even Distracting Shot is useful here, not for the ten second duration it has itself, but in helping the LM chain-mezz two mobs.

[Flambergius]

In the setting we have now, I would disagree. CC in MoM is far from vital.

Well, yeah, not vital right now. Useful still and might become more important with fellowship's DPS going down. Now, I don't know if the difference is in how we view secondary CC, might be more that I don't rate RKs ability to switch over to healing as all that great. Now, that might well be my ignorance, and hopefully the experienced RK players can weight in on this. There's actually quite a lot of "secondary" healing available to a fellowship from second main healers, captains and even loremasters and wardens. I just don't see the DPSing RK switching over to healing as a good tactical maneuver, definitely not during the fight, but even switching between different fights seems suspect.

[Erhnam]

Well, yeah, not vital right now. Useful still and might become more important with fellowship's DPS going down. Now, I don't know if the difference is in how we view secondary CC, might be more that I don't rate RKs ability to switch over to healing as all that great. Now, that might well be my ignorance, and hopefully the experienced RK players can weight in on this. There's actually quite a lot of "secondary" healing available to a fellowship from second main healers, captains and even loremasters and wardens. I just don't see the DPSing RK switching over to healing as a good tactical maneuver, definitely not during the fight, but even switching between different fights seems suspect.

We dont usually have to switch roles. If I enter a instance for DPS'ing (as I usually do, because our kin-alliance has more minstrels than hunters :/ ), I almost never have to switch to healing. If I do, usually its because the healer was one-shotted and I coudnt toss my preventive rez. The only thing I do is putting a few preludes on the tank (or the huntertank :P ). Its just 65/5, but with some legacys its duration is 80s, so it helps

So you were right, if I have to switch role, is because something went very wrong

[Calladan]

Their main standing point is "Ok we will nerf u BUT, mobs morale and resistances will be down too! Yeah, so u wont have a problem!It's sooooooo cool!"

LoL what makes u believe that there was a possibility that we would have the slightest problem against mindless mobs? Most hunters can easily kill them with QS only and melee attacks.

Burgs/LMs (at 60) can solo - duo CD (definite solo by LM till Mordirith, he lost at 2nd Phase), GS, 16th, and maybe more instances. An LM at 50 lvl soloed Coldbear at Helegrod + these 2 classes can win almost every spar with creep or freep. Minstrels can do pretty much the same dps as a hunter PLUS THE CAN DO IT WHILE MOVING!

But hunters r OP cause they have HS. I admit it. And i m an easy mode player, cause everyone says so, but none can explain.

Hey all outhere: Do u know that hunter and warden r the only classes that actually PLAN their game/attack?Every other class can just attack and if caught unprepaired can easily escape. An unprepaired hunter is a dead hunter. If that's easy mode, then i m glad i m playing on easy mode. Compared to hard mode LMs and Burgs that can easily deal with 4 opponents. Huh? What? They dont have HS? Oh well....

PS: What's the difference between HS and March of the Ents?

[Erhnam]

Minstrels can do pretty much the same dps as a hunter PLUS THE CAN DO IT WHILE MOVING! Please, stop using bows from prologue instance. They improve with levels, I promise. A minsrel will outdps a hunter...in the first 10 seconds of the battle. Then they are sold


Hey all outhere: Do u know that hunter and warden r the only classes that actually PLAN their game/attack?Every other class can just attack and if caught unprepaired can easily escape. At level 20 you get DF. Keep levelling. At 45 you can also get an AoE root. It helps a lot, too


An unprepaired hunter is a dead hunter. If that's easy mode, then i m glad i m playing on easy mode.You never played a RK, then


Compared to hard mode LMs and Burgs that can easily deal with 4 opponents. Huh? What? They dont have HS? Oh well....
Nor you played a LM or a burg. "Easily" only applies if you know you class. BTW, I know hunters that can "easily" solo 4 mobs. As I said, keep playing, things get better once you exit beginner instance

[OMWiener]

don't bite Ernham, just don't bite :)

Posts like those are exactly why hunters get a bad name.

[Eorthor]

Burgs/LMs (at 60) can solo - duo CD (definite solo by LM till Mordirith, he lost at 2nd Phase), GS, 16th, and maybe more instances. An LM at 50 lvl soloed Coldbear at Helegrod + these 2 classes can win almost every spar with creep or freep. Minstrels can do pretty much the same dps as a hunter PLUS THE CAN DO IT WHILE MOVING!

Have you ever actually played a minstrel/LM/burg?
Minstrels rely on BIG crits with certain skills to get anywhere near Hunter DPS, even then they definitely can't do the same DPS.

A Lore master is a CC class, of course it can solo more than a hunter, it's job is to stop mobs fighting with roots/dazes/stuns etc, but a Lore master NEED's to be aware, if caught out, they will struggle due to the light armour.
As for burglar, there a survival class, they have moderate CC and they have Panic buttons more so than the hunter.

But you can't just pick up and play a Lore master or a burg, you'll die unless you know what you're doing.



But hunters r OP cause they have HS. I admit it. And i m an easy mode player, cause everyone says so, but none can explain.


No hunters are Overpowered because our corner stone skill (swift bow) can hit over 3,000 points of damage in total with just 1 legacy on a bow, and merciful shot can crit for 8k+ with using only one other skill. hence the reason these skills were nerfed.


Hey all outhere: Do u know that hunter and warden r the only classes that actually PLAN their game/attack?Every other class can just attack and if caught unprepaired can easily escape. An unprepaired hunter is a dead hunter. If that's easy mode, then i m glad i m playing on easy mode. Compared to hard mode LMs and Burgs that can easily deal with 4 opponents. Huh? What? They dont have HS? Oh well....

Did you know Hunter takes less planning than most other classes? obviously not, as for the 'easily escape:'

Desperate Flight:
Level 20,
Instantly ports the hunter to the nearest respawn.
Requires - 1 travel ration.

Yes, other classes can escape so much easier than us. :rolleyes:


PS: What's the difference between HS and March of the Ents?

With the right set up, heart seeker can crit for 7,000+ damage, March of the ents can't.

March of the ents requires a legendary trait. heart seeker does not.

March of the ents, requires a crit to hit for 1.5k+ Heart seeker does not.

[Erhnam]

don't bite Ernham, just don't bite :)

Posts like those are exactly why hunters get a bad name.

Feeding trolls is the only fun thing I have done today!! Horrible day at work :p

Some of us can separate a hunter from a huntard ;)

[Sidamos]

He's a greek. They like exaggerating...

[Viceciceror]

He's a greek. They like exaggerating...

and your a noob if you think that :D

[MéLAnoR]

did i miss stg on boards?
eh?
*back to sticking mobs and tossing javelin*

[Calladan]

Seems there r so many ubber hunters here. Ok, maybe i overacted up there but come on guys. 7k+ dmg? I have 26,3%-27,8% ranged crit and 586 agility and never scored above 4.5k. Is it so frequent to score that ubber crits? They dont call MotE and the Lighting, AoE HS for fun.
And DF? From the very begging we r asking for a defensive skill to replace DF. I dont want a skill that sends me 1 mile away, I need one to survive, like most classes do. But as I said, seems u r too good for me.

Sidamos how u define geek? Cause someone with 4 60s cant say that. I wish u know how to play at least one.

Federic m8 and Erhnam, minstrels can throw 3-4 tier 1 ballads at u and Piercing Cry before u start loading a shot. So in 5secs they burst more dmg aka more DPS. Just spar a good one.
And yeah some of us can see the huntards.

[Sidamos]

Like 70-80% of my clan in L2 are greeks....oO alike 50-60 ppl...

@Calladan
26,3-27,8% crit rate ? hu ? Which version of LotRO are you playing ?

Another thing that wasn't really meant negative but I know how to take and
understand things which are said by greeks. I meet my guys every 4-5 months
in Athens since like 2-3 years.

[MéLAnoR]

Like 70-80% of my clan in L2 are greeks....oO

@Calladan
26,3-27,8% crit rate ? hu ? Which version of LotRO are you playing ?

Another thing that wasn't really meant negative but I know how to take and
understand things which are said by greeks. I meet my guys every 4-5 months
in Athens since like 2-3 years.
hehe i can understand ; Turks also are keen to exaggarate no suprising since we share the same region and quite look like each other imo with greeks :)

[Erhnam]

Seems there r so many ubber hunters here. Ok, maybe i overacted up there but come on guys. 7k+ dmg? I have 26,3%-27,8% ranged crit and 586 agility and never scored above 4.5k. Is it so frequent to score that ubber crits? They dont call MotE and the Lighting, AoE HS for fun.
And DF? From the very begging we r asking for a defensive skill to replace DF. I dont want a skill that sends me 1 mile away, I need one to survive, like most classes do. But as I said, seems u r too good for me.

Sidamos how u define geek? Cause someone with 4 60s cant say that. I wish u know how to play at least one.

Federic m8 and Erhnam, minstrels can throw 3-4 tier 1 ballads at u and Piercing Cry before u start loading a shot. So in 5secs they burst more dmg aka more DPS. Just spar a good one.
And yeah some of us can see the huntards.
Enlighten us of how to exploit the crit cap in order to go above 15% crit, please. Oh, BTW, crit rating has NOTHING to do with crit magnitude. You can have 0'5% of critting, and crit above 7K when you do

I have a minstrel, was my first 50, I know how it plays. I know how much damage do a ballad. I know the range of those skills. Yes, minstrels have probably the highest burst damage when traited for it. And what? Burst damage is not DPS. Saying the opposite is just not having a clue about game basics. A superb geared and traited mins can hit you for about 3-4k, IF EVERY ATTACK IS AT MINIMUN A CRIT. After that, they have all his high damaging skills on CD and their power bar is at 2/3. Anyway, what are you trying to say? That if a mins can beat you in a spar, they have higher DPS than you. lol . Wait, let me say it again. LOL. Following that rule, LMs and Burglars (and maybe good played wardens) can outdps any class out there. And im not taking into acount that you have the longest range of all skills. You can take out half the morale bar of a mins or any light wearer before he or she can land the first attack. But yes, try to support your ideas on spars :rolleyes:

[Calladan]

Oh sorry m8, misread Greek for Geek, mua culpa.

13,3% is the base crit and then we have: 13% Focus Bow Crit Multiplier (not magnitude) / 14,5% on Induction skills.

Most players dont go far away when sparring hunters, they stay so close that even Camouflage cant hide u. So, if he starts going around and hitting tier 1 ballads, u cant relay on RoT always, u lose. Ofc I will support my ideas on spars/PvP ! :) I dont care if I can kill mindless mobs. That's the easy part.

And again, ofc u can score a crit of 10000 points with 0.01% crit chance but how often u see that?

[Scappydog]

Focus Bow Crit Multiplier does not affect your crit rate, it increases the size of the crit number applied to a standard hit. ie if base hit is 200 and crit multiplier is 2 then you would get a crit of 400. With that legacy crit multiplier becomes 2.26 and you will get a crit of around 450.

The same applies to Induction Bow Crit Multiplier as well.

Crit chance has been capped at 15% since MoM release, any excess moves to Dev Crit chance.

[Calladan]

*DF* Got it wrong then, but ubber crits remain too hard to score, it's pure luck.

[Erhnam]

Ofc I will support my ideas on spars/PvP ! :) Then you fail at this topic. This game will NEVER be balanced towards PvMP, and even less toward spars. This is a purely PvE game with a small PvP component which was not intended to be there at the beginning.

About the crit stuff, other have already say it. (Crit magnitude = crit multplier) =/= crit rating

[Scatha the Worm]

Ballads? Are you frikin' kidding? DPS through ballads? What planet are you from? Ballads are for tiering to the important stuff and applying self-buffs, the damage itself can go nice all around with legacies and traits, but not something to rely on.

The burst DPS skills of a minstrel are Piercing Cry, Call of Orome, Call of the Second Age, and Call to Fate. Anthem of the Valar perhaps but that one is more about the ICMR than anything, and Anthem of the Wizards maybe for a pure soloing build. It's a matter of buffing/debuffing apropiately (Timeless Echoes of Battle + Ballad of Resonance + Call of Orome are the buffs/debuffs to keep up at all times) to get good burst damage out.

On a burst DPS test a Hunter should always be on the top, and I think it does. Even more by using HS as an opener. Even more with Burn Hot. Even more with Needful Haste. If your grounds for comparison are spars against a minstrel, or PvMP, you are completely off the map, HERE BE MONSTERS.

EDIT: Keeping it nice.

[Mivrandir]

Let's keep these forums clean please gents. Calladan was just expressing his oppinion and a pvp-oriented point of view of some aspects of the game. Adding personal insults to a game-mechanics argument is the true case of trolling of which the last post is a clear example of.


Mivrandir
LVL60 R5 Loremaster
Proud member of Element Zero
[EN]Snowburn

[Erhnam]

Let's keep these forums clean please gents. Calladan was just expressing his oppinion and a pvp-oriented point of view of some aspects of the game. Adding personal insults to a game-mechanics argument is the true case of trolling of which the last post is a clear example of.


Coming here with a whaaambulance attitude, stating non-senses as pure facts and calling other people "ubber" for showing him the wrong points is also trolling. I agree that Scatha's reaction may be a bit exagerated, but thats what you get when you throw a flame-bait: someone picks it and flames you for being a troll

Anyway lets not derail the topic please :) We where having some nice posts regarding both hunter and rk DPS ;)

[Calladan]

I said DF, but u didnt get it.

Nice common sence. PvE wont change much with the nerf anyway, mobs will still be mobs not thinking players. And if we keep seperating PvE from PvP that much, PvMP will never be fixed.

For the record at the back of the game's box and at the Official site PvMP content is clearly written. Unbalanced or not pvp exists.

Ubber was reffering to 7k dmg, that's all, and I said I was wrong 2 times, said "I m sorry" and DFed from the thread. Was trying to cool out the situation.