Hunters are NOT tanks! Please, people!

[Kaninen]

Pardon me if there is already a thread like this, but I'm starting to tear my hair out of my head over this.

I have a Hunter character. I also have a Champion, a Minstrel, and a Warden. I usually play with a friend of mine - he, too, has a Hunter (among other classes). I enjoy the class, though it is not my particular favourite. However, now that I am playing my Warden (a tank) and my friend is on a different character, I am beginning to notice something incredibly frustrating and disappointing.

Perhaps it is just a streak of bad luck, but every single time I have fellowshipped with a Hunter in the past month (on levels under 35, mind you), they seem to all be suffering from the same delusion - namely, they think they are a tank.

So I ask every Hunter on Laurelin, from one Hunter to another - Do not pull the boss. Do not pull the camp. Do not start DPSing madly before the party leader has done a ready check and/or the tank has begun to pull.

How this very simple MMO concept eludes so many is a complete mystery to me. I am by no means an expert on MMOs, but let me put it down as plainly as I understand, with whatever experience I have as a guide:

If you, as a DPSer, make the pull, you will wipe your fellowship. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, because chances are everyone else will come save your trigger-happy behind and perhaps manage to recover through doing their jobs impeccably - but you will learn a pattern of poor behaviour that is going to catch up with you, especially on higher levels and more difficult areas.

I guess part of the problem is that Hunters are so used to dishing out huge amounts of damage that they are used to getting away with being loose-cannons, probably a behaviour learned from soloing.

Wardens do not have instant Challenges, like Guardians, Champions, or whoever else has them. We cannot taunt something off of you, and even if we could, that would only solve the problem of ONE mob for a few seconds. When they're done with you, the healer is next, and there goes the fellowship.

Tanks pull. DPSers DPS after the tank has made the pull. And if you're REALLY good, you even wait *gasp* a few moments to let the tank build threat before flooring the gas, depending on the severity of the encounter.

I know, as Hunters we run fast, kill fast - I went 43 levels on my Champion with my friend as Hunter, who would kill everything before I even got to it. Soloing, for hunters, no doubt requires massive, immediate damage. But solo play does not equal fellowship play. Tactics change based on encounter. But this simple rule remains:

Tanks pull.

And I encourage all tanks to follow the advice of... a user whose name I've forgotten... who posted some words of wisdom in the Warden section - "You pull it, you tank it. Tough love."

I know there are plenty of excellent Hunters out there. But I'm being swamped with horrendous encounters, lately.

[MéLAnoR]

*demands sticky*
he's not on a rant or flaming here i assume and agree bad bad hunters really spoil your fun out and wipe.
imo if a hunter loves melee stick toe to toe with your tank just avid frontal aoe attacks and hit both melee and ranged in close range unless your under duty of covering a minstrel at back.

[Noerenn]

I usually let the grd get aggro first, but sometimes i like to be the tank and start doing insane dps first hehehe. I can tank pretty good as hunter, i miss the days we were doing DoF with 3 people with me as tank/dps. ^_^
But other than that, good hunters can manage to do a lot of dps without getting aggro. Just fire some quick shots in the beginning only so the grd can get aggro.

[Scatha the Worm]

I can tank pretty good as hunter

Nope.

Anyway... I might make an argument for ranged taking in multiple mob situations. And of course the root pulls. And getting aggro off minstrels when every other better candidate is busy.

But hunters are too squishy to serve as tanks.

Tanking is not about getting aggro easily, it is also about dealing well with incoming damage, being able to survive, self-heal, and avoid it is a what a good tank should do.

[Lugbara]

If hunter wants to be in Strenght then I let him/her be. When hunter dies I get aggro.

[Kindoffer]

Hear, hear!

I can tank pretty good as hunter, i miss the days we were doing DoF with 3 people with me as tank/dps. ^_^
But other than that, good hunters can manage to do a lot of dps without getting aggro.
Your first statement is ridiculous, but feel free to offer yourself up as the main tank next time you're doing a fellowship quest in order to prove your point. Your second statement rings true, however, and it is not rocket science for a Hunter to do well in his main role (damage), without stealing aggro from the tank. The sad thing here, though, is that those Hunters seem to be a rare breed nowadays.


Tanking is not about getting aggro easily, it is also about dealing well with incoming damage, being able to survive, self-heal, and avoid it is a what a good tank should do.
Indeed. You would have to be a very special Hunter if you have boosted up your morale and armour class high enough, in order to make up for the lack of a shield and other damage mitigation you usually lack. Not to mention your skills' induction times who would be increased ten-fold because of all the hits you're taking. A traited Needful Haste only lasts so long.

If hunter wants to be in Strenght then I let him/her be. When hunter dies I get aggro.
Another valid point. I am not going to waste my heals on a Hunter who is short-sighted enough to join up for a fellowship quest, and be in Strength Stance. It has its uses while playing solo, or when fighting enemies who are defeated before they even have a chance to hit anyone, but most of the time Strength Stance will only cause the Hunter to steal aggro in a split second, as well as to be drained of all his/her power before the first fight is over. You'll end up being just a useless spot-filler in the fellowship, that way. Precision Stance is a good bet, and if you still notice that you can't help drawing aggro or if you're running out of power too quickly, go for the Endurance Stance. It's not that complicated, people, and don't worry, you'll still end up dealing the most damage in the group.

This should all be a very easy concept to grasp, and like Kaninen says in her original post, of course there are also great Hunters out there who knows what they're doing, and as a result end up being a real asset to the group; but the chances of encountering one of those - at least before you reach the end-levels of 50-60, I suppose - appear to be extremely low.

[Kaninen]

he's not on a rant or flaming here

She. To quote Eowyn, "I am no man!" ;) Thanks for the sticky nomination, I definitely feel as though this very basic concept is elluding too many.


I usually let the grd get aggro first, but sometimes i like to be the tank and start doing insane dps first hehehe. I can tank pretty good as hunter

I'll tell you what, Noerenn - When I hit 60, I'll let YOU tank the balrog. We'll see how it goes. ;)

I might make an argument for ranged taking in multiple mob situations. And of course the root pulls. And getting aggro off minstrels when every other better candidate is busy.


Yes, I agree, I do realise of course that tactics change based on encounter, as I mentioned in my opening post. Hunters are perfect for taking on ranged mobs, especially with the appropriate virtues - these are almost always additionals, however, and that isn't tanking.
My frustration however was with a rather basic concept that I see being ignored every night I log on, lately. There are many variations between kinds of encounters but how can we expect people to handle such complications if they can't even get the most basic rules down? It's like having to tell a minstrel - remember to heal!

Tanking is not about getting aggro easily, it is also about dealing well with incoming damage, being able to survive, self-heal, and avoid it is a what a good tank should do.

I most certainly agree. However, I meant this to be a topic about Hunter behaviour, since the discussion on how to tank properly probably belongs in the Guardian/Warden subforums (and there are many, I am keen to read them, being relatively new at tanking). I haven't had trouble tanking, so far; I have had plenty of trouble with trigger-happy hunters, however.

About Strength Stance - in these encounters I've had, the loose-cannons almost always have it activated. As far as I've noticed, the main effect is that they draw aggro and drain their power, then they start dying because they no longer have the ability to execute any skills. Then the mad running around begins. Haha it's really quite frustrating.

I believe Strength is good for downing something quickly, but maybe not the best of choices when facing six elites.

[Selwen]

If hunter wants to be in Strenght then I let him/her be. When hunter dies I get aggro.

I'd definitely agree with this. The only time I like to see a hunter in strength stance is when I've missed a mob thats pounding or plinking the minstrel/RK and the hunter uses strength to get the aggro off the healer. But then, that's when I'm not doing my job :)

[Doctorfun]

I have been trying to pass the concepts of aggro management to many young hunters both in my kin and out of it, but too often I get the "Endurance stance sucks" attitude or the even more insidious "When I get to real encounters I will change my ways".

I have to say that, although LoTRO has the nicest community, it also seems to have the less skilled community of all the MMOs I played (and they were many). I think this is due to the previous 'easy mode' game we had and am confident it will change in time. A community of players who are intelligent enough to be nice and mature will certainly adapt to the new level of skill required by the game mechanics.

I have a couple of questions though: I come from WoW to LoTRO. My mains chars there were a priest and a hunter. Hunters in WoW are, in most situations the best class for pulling, especially tricky pulling or when a fast sequence of pulls is required. I am deiscovering slowly that such is not the view (and probably the reality) in LoTRO. I am still 54 and since Helegrod and the Rift are just skipped content this days, I have had no experience of skill stressing encounter sin this game. In WoW I'd use a low threat pulling skill, but the warriors there had fail-safe aggro grabbing skills. Not sure if those exist in LoTRO and that would be a good reason for hunters not to pull. Am I near the right answer?
Are there situations where hunters can play a major pulling role? I like to be a puller as you can probably tell by now :D

[Bielduwyn]

Hehe, reminds me of when I was invited into a fellowship ages ago to do that book quest in the Great Barrow, the two hunters in it had this bizarre idea that I, as a Guardian, had to be magically capable of generating more threat than they did when going all out DPS.

Oh well. =D I could tank much more easily when one of them died.

[Noerenn]

Your first statement is ridiculous, but feel free to offer yourself up as the main tank next time you're doing a fellowship quest in order to prove your point.
Well the fact i can tank Elite Masters and Nemesis enemies before Moria with only a captain and lore master as other fellows i have proven my point.
Also we did Forgotten Treasury with the kin some weeks ago, but i was highest level and we didn't have a grd only a lvl54 champion. So i decided to tank, and it worked perfectly.

Grand Stairs? I just kite the boss around to kill him. (Isgash)
Torahammas? Just kite around.

Sure i'm not nearly as good as a guardian, i got 10% less common mitigation and guardians have instant aggro control and -incomming damage from shields etc.

I also don't like tanking i like to shoot from a distance, but when i want, i can tank ^_^ Almost everyone can tank.... But the repairs... Ouch..

[Seyanne_]

You're right that hunters are not meant to be main tanks, but you're taking it one step to far.
No we shouldnt aggro entire camps and pull bosses, but generally we are quite capable of tanking whatever mob we're killing. A lvl 60 hunter can easily have 5k+ morale unbuffed with high evade and parry ratings.

e.g. 5 mob pull, the guardian takes 4 and the hunter takes 1. Its no problem because whatever the hunter is tanking will be dead in no time anyway if the group correctly focusses their dps. When that one is dead, the hunter moves on to the next mob and kills it, perhaps pulling aggro on it in the process but who cares.
In a random pug, its a bad idea, in a reliable group, staying under the guard on the aggro list will only needlessly limit the dps a hunter can dish out against key enemies like healers for example.

[Bielduwyn]

Well the fact i can tank Elite Masters and Nemesis enemies before Moria with only a captain and lore master as other fellows i have proven my point.The only thing you really did prove is that you urgently need to fellow with better Captains if you have to tank for them rather than the other way around. o: You poor soul.

Of course, not disputing that hunters can indeed tank the odd monster or two, but it shouldn't be their role within a fellowship (especially not if you have a heavy armour class like the Captain around).

[ValgrenDaar]

All a hunter does is if he 'tanks' is reduce is damage output and increase the incoming damage for a healer to deal with.

[Kaninen]

In WoW I'd use a low threat pulling skill, but the warriors there had fail-safe aggro grabbing skills. Not sure if those exist in LoTRO and that would be a good reason for hunters not to pull. Am I near the right answer?
Are there situations where hunters can play a major pulling role? I like to be a puller as you can probably tell by now :D

Guardians have taunts, which draw aggro for a few seconds, but if you don't manage to surpass the threat of whoever you taunted the mob off of before it runs out, well, the mob will go right back. Champions also have a taunt. Wardens don't work quite the same way. These taunts do have cooldown, however, so you won't be able to pull it again in 10 seconds. It only masks the problem for a short while - if the mob is an elite master, it might be a bit more tricky. As far as I can think, there is no common reason why tanks can't pull - they have ranged attacks/the ability to use ranged weapons.

Hunters in WoW are definitely NOT Hunters in Lotro. But you've raised a very interesting issue for me - perhaps iI keep running into previous WoW Hunters who come to Lotro, roll Hunters and assume things function the same way.

Hunters in Lotro also lack Threat-transfer skills. A Champion on high levels can, however, transfer threat from a fellowship member to him/herself, then use another skill to transfer threat from themselves to yet another fellowship member (both at 15%). You could use this as a sort of threat-hot-potato, though I'm not sure how often people do.

Almost everyone can tank....

Well, there are of course tricks to pull, like you mention with kiting. But as I said, how can I expect people to pull off more delicate maneouvers if they don't have the basics? I'm not targetting my commentary at YOU, Noerenn, you clearly know what you're doing. You're the opposite of who I'm talking about.

You're right that hunters are not meant to be main tanks, but you're taking it one step to far.
...
In a random pug, its a bad idea, in a reliable group, staying under the guard on the aggro list will only needlessly limit the dps a hunter can dish out against key enemies like healers for example.

Alright, I don't know what I said exactly that gave the impression that I thought a Hunter cannot take on ONE single mob - obviously I don't. I did mention how in playing with my Hunter friend as a Champion myself, I rarely even got to HIT the mob as he generally killed it before it reached us. I also do not consider taking on one mob, taking an add, or temporarily saving squishies as tanking.

When I say tanking, I mean YOU are between the elite master dragon/balrog/wight lord/oogly-boogly and the fellowship (well, technically I would have whatever I'm tanking pinched between me and the fellowship so they don't get hit with AOE, but you guys understand my figure of speech, there).

Of course the tank cannot feasibly take on EVERYTHING, hence Hunters and Champions often get delegated to adds. I do not consider this tanking, guys. Of course a Hunter can down something, even a couple somethings if they come after them. Again, this has nothing to do with why I started this topic.

Seyanne_, you're describing basic group-dynamics, and believe me, I do understand them.

My gripe was solely about loose-cannons who pull before everyone is ready, before the tank does, dragging a whole camp to the fellowship, or notice the elite master with elite adds and think, hey, it's a great idea for me to start firing without any warning and aggro them all.

And yeah, I haven't had it lead to a wipe yet, because, like I said, the rest of the fellowship usually works hard and fast to recover. But I know it will cause problems in harder areas and on higher levels, and I was hoping to prevent pattern-building for that kind of poor behaviour with this thread.

And I don't have a character on level 60. I can imagine that the dynamics change quite a bit, but I really can't comment on that yet.

If anything, I'm not taking it far enough! ;)

I think part of the problem here is that my posts are too long. Perhaps people aren't reading it all and just reacting to one part of what I've said.

[Noerenn]

The only thing you really did prove is that you urgently need to fellow with better Captains if you have to tank for them rather than the other way around. o: You poor soul.
Actually i grouped with the best captains around. Do you know, captains can't heal themself, and relying on only lore master heals it not a good thing. So ofcourse i was a tank. 3 people in DoF, you get luminous stones REALLY fast. :) But those times are over now with moria. :(

[Tyranno85]

Play a hunter for quite a while already, and the ones with a bit sence of brains will know when to use wich stance and when not. Even in boss fights I use strengths stance and not get aggro from the boss. Just pling auto attacks for 10-20 seconds with a few quick shots and the guardian must've build up enough aggro to hold him, if not the champion should've build up enough aggro to keep the aggro from you even on strength stance.

But! If the mob is a ranged mob then I think the hunter is best to tank, since hunters have the highest ranged evade of all classes he should get the least damage when tanking. Also they seem to have all a poison skill that can be insta cured if the hunter knows how the induction to it looks like and then pew on.

Myself have no problem when I'm on my minstrell and a hunter tanks. He's not first on my "to-heal" list and if he dies its his fault. Since I'm playing champion I figured out how annoying it is to run after a mob that whas pulled by a hunter when you've runned towards it first.

This is roughly how the hunter players can be devided I think:

70% has no idea how to use the skills properly thus pulling everything + whiping alot.
15% has an idea on how to use the skills but lack the initiative to actually do so.
10% know what to do and react on how the situation develops.
5% of the hunters know how to use their skills and adapt to every situation depending on what it needs.

[Scappydog]

The big problem is that the Hunter's who should be reading threads like this rarely or ever visit the forums. I also think the new trait lines ( Bowmaster ) are actually encouraging people to go "pew pew" even more than they used too.

[Scatha the Worm]

Warning, lengthy post ahead.

This thread is not at all new, it has been present in many different ways from as long as I've started reading the forums. The same happens in US forus. I most certainly agree there are a lot of hunters out there who don't have a clue as to what aggro is, or how to manage it. Hell, I don't think those hunters even know they are placing the group in a tight spot with such behaviour.

But I also disagree with the MO. Most of the people who actually take the time to read the class forums are people who are usually reading it to learn more about their own class (among other things, but I do believe this is the primary interest). So coming in here to rant about PUG hunters is not a good strategy, I must say it may only come out as a "/rant on" post which ends up going nowhere. The odds of a hunter which reads these forums to have such a blatant disregard for game mechanics is slim (but I must admit it is present).

Your options? Try to educate the PUG hunter: Endurance unless specifically asked otherwise, let designated tanks do the pulling, define a main assist target and the hunter should specifically assist that person, when not to AoE, etc... It's not a pleasant task, but explaining things thoroughly has a high success rate. And don't be condescending while doing it, after all, the person at the other side is also playing a game and trying to have fun.

Also, these threads many times cast a very poor reflection on all the players of the class, and that is absolutely unfair. It is simply a matter of statistics. There are more hunters with poor performance simply because there are a lot more hunters. Proportionally, I don't think it is too far off with all the other classes. I've met guardians who slot their shield and go in overpower stance and never use vexing blow because "I want to do more damage", or captains who wouldn't place a Hope Banner because "it reduces my morale (referring to the extra morale not being filled at first when you place the banner, I guess he was looking at percentages???)", and minstrels who didn't know what ICPR was and why it was important (it is the concept that was enterily ignored, not just the acronym), champions who would say "clobber, what do you eat that with?/Ebbing-Rising Ire? I don't have such a skill", and on goes the list. Be more fair to the player base, and specially to the forum community, which usually cares/knows more on the topic at the very least (ignoring trolls and other internet lurker subspecies into that).

Back on topic...

At the very basics, a Tank is a player wich manages to focus the baddies attention onto himself in order to allow his group to perform their corresponding tasks more easily.
Translated to game mechanics, a Tank needs to have several capabilities:
- The ability to build up aggro reliably.
- The ability to regain aggro rapidly.
- The ability to soak and avoid damage.
- The ability to self sustain for at least some amount of time.
- The knowledge of each other classes aggro issues/capabilities.

The first 4 come in with the class design. Currently the guardian shines in that department, and supposedly the warden too, more focused on slightly different tasks (haven't grouped with enough to really say). The fifth is up to the player, and perhaps the least needed, but it can make a difference.

Now, that is for a very general definition. With the Game Mechanics of Lotro, there are some things to watch into:
- There is a base aggro related to pulling. If dealing with a tight packed group of mobs, whoever pulls, gets the aggro equivalent of doing a decent AoE damage to all those pulled, hence the usual instruction of letting designated tanks doing the pull.
- Guardians need to have mobs hitting them to be able to build up aggro.
- Once guardians have placed between 3 and 6 taunts, they have a much easier time doing their job, hence the usual 10-20 second delay usually asked for before the nuking starts.
- Forced taunts are usually saved for emergency situations. Every class has tools to help manage threat, learn them, use them, love them, or you will be producing emergency situations in addition to the intrinsic difficulty of the scenario.

Hunters specially have very good tools to deal with threat. A stance wich reduces 10% total aggro (20% traited, I would recomend this to any PUG hunters, since you never know how good the tank will be) and which transforms our Nº1 spammable skill, Quick Shot, into a detaunt: it REDUCES aggro for yourself to the target you are hitting. And also, Beneath Notice, a skill wich temporarily reduces your total aggro for a brief amount of time, it is very important to notice the temporary issue, once the skill wears off you're back were you started so what you should do if getting unwanted aggro is:
- Switch to Endurance immediately (you should usually be running with this if grouped anyway)
- Hit Beneath Notice
- Spam quick shot until the skill ends (a couple extra wouldn't hurt)
- Nuke away if and when aggro is steady on tank (learn to watch buffs on mobs, if the main tank placed a forced taunt on the mob, there are no guarantees it isn't going to come right back at you when it ends, so keep spamming QS until the forced taunt ends and aggro is off of you)

About Ranged tanking:
- This is basically pulling aggro of uncontrolled ranged mobs, wich usually mess it for everyone by nuking the healers in the group.
- This build requires you have decent -ranged vulnerability, (ranged) evade, as well as morale.

Hunters are good options for ranged taking because they have a decent amount of ranged evade, and they have the ability to gain aggro very easily if played properly (Stance switching on the fly, something very useful to do in many situations). But ranged taking usually takes place in very specific situations, most usual is pulling ranged adds off healers. And that is usually just temporary until a better performing tank jumps in, or the mobs is prioritized by the main assist (and should be since it is uncontrolled).

Better organized groups perform much differently, but they rely mostly on the players qualities and good group mechanics (usually happens with groups of people who reapeatedly group toghether). I know I will tank (wich isn't techinically correct, I'm more a ranged assist which gets aggro, as opossed to the champ who deals with melee mobs in a mayhem deathstorm of AoEs) every god forsaken archer in the 16th hall simply because it makes it faster and our regular group can easily handle it.

Also, learn your CC. It is our secondary role, and a very powerful tool, specially when dealing with adds. It is not uncommon for a hunter to be asked to do a root pull. This is firing off your 5 target root to break up perilous pulls into smaller more easily manageable bits. Remember to switch to Precision to maximize effectiveness for the root, and then switch back to endurance. Break loss on any ranged mobs. Assist, nuke. And be carefull with fear. Although it is very usefull, be carefull where you "aim" the mob, or it might bring extra friends.

[Barandir]

An interesting thread; I agree with the statement about low lvl hunter and pulling badly, but I get the feeling you have played to many times in the rift to remember what the average pug hunter does in a fs.
However with the game tweaks since Moria bringing more importance to armour value than before, our ability to get and hold agro, parry self buff and ranged slowing effects makes us idea for a lot of encounters that work with kiting or where a champ or guard are better served else where.
I've tanked the Everseer and various bosses in CD and Uru at 60 which was cake... I guess just for the burndown dps value a lvl60 hunter would be the weapon of choice in these encounters for the future.
Having also tanked all the Lvl 60 encounters pretty often (total runs in the high 80's now I'd guess) I'd say, "Yes, We can!" "But sometimes a Champ is better"
BTW I think you'll find most people agreed that Hunters should do all the tanking in the Maw.
The point I think is we can if it works best for a particular group/encounter we can with no real problem but for some bosses a champ or guard would be better.
I'd like to add aswell the reason I even tried to tank was when I first hit 60 there were very few others, defo no Guards, trying an armour run for the first time and working a strat to account for no mini no guard type setups ment thinking outside the box.

[Kaninen]

So coming in here to rant about PUG hunters is not a good strategy, I must say it may only come out as a "/rant on" post which ends up going nowhere.

Me? Rant? *Monocle falls into martini glass* Why, I never!

I am aware there are stern undertones in my posts but I find it a serious issue when many players lack this basic, vital knowledge. I don't see how me bringing up a very significant point, crucial to the enjoyment of fellowshipping and expressing my disappointment and frustration in a collected manner, without the use of profanities or !!!11111 or other such things qualifies as a rant.

Well, I tried mentioning it to players I came across (and I was never the only one in the fellowship doing it, either), but the issue wasn't resolving. They usually just completely ignored any suggestions/directions.

So, exasperated, I turned to the forums as a last resort. Discussion of the classes and gameplay is, after all, part of the reason why they exist.

And I wouldn't say it's going nowhere. Plenty of replies and a rousing discussion is hardly nowhere! :D

The odds of a hunter which reads these forums to have such a blatant disregard for game mechanics is slim (but I must admit it is present).

Ah, hence my use of bold text. Those puppies stand out right on the page, big bad statements like "tanks pull" in bold are bound to get read, even if the reader goes "TLDR". And hence my cleverly named title, which says it all. Even if they don't read the topic, they see "Hunters are NOT tanks" - it's a three-pronged approach, to quote the Simpsons, "subliminal, liminal, and super-liminal (which presumably involves me shouting at random hunters passing by, "Hey, you! You're not a tank!").

And, come now Scatha, you can't disagree with the MO all that much - otherwise you wouldn't have written out such a lengthy and informative post on useful hunter tactics.

Also, these threads many times cast a very poor reflection on all the players of the class, and that is absolutely unfair.

Well, naturally, an inconsiderate player is probably an inconsiderate person, regardless of what class they choose. But I did mention in my starting post that I play a hunter, my friend whom I always play with has a hunter, and that "I know there are plenty of excellent Hunters out there." I never accused all hunters of playing poorly, but I used specific, personal encounters from the past month or so, which is all I can do. I can't very well start a thread about captains or guardians if I don't have anything pressing that needs to be said about those classes.

It would most certainly be absolutely unfair if I were to have written all hunters suck. But I most certainly did not. :)

Definitely a LOT of information in your post, Scatha, and very crucial stuff, too, especially on the specific hunter skills and their usefulness. A hunter-handbook every such player should definitely be familiar with. Hopefully, those players who need most to read it, will - though, as you implied, if they don't have the patience to let the tank pull, what are the chances they have the patience to read lengthy forums posts..

@ Tyranno - some great tips, there. I particularily will take to heart what you said about playing as a minstrel - not healing an unruling hunter does seem the best thing to do - they'll probably die and then the healer will get slammed with all the aggro right afterwards. Hehe I would also agree with your breakdown of players and their abilities - but then, I don't have any faith in humanity, either. :B

[nightbyday]

Actually i grouped with the best captains around. Do you know, captains can't heal themself, and relying on only lore master heals it not a good thing. So ofcourse i was a tank. 3 people in DoF, you get luminous stones REALLY fast. :) But those times are over now with moria. :(

Captians CAN heal themsleves, mine has a heal that ticks 122 5 ticks, revealing mark, pots and indire need rallying shout, oh also man heal :P. But of course thats not like a ready heal myself now never has a cool down type heal.

On the subject of hunters and the OP totally agree Hunters job is DPS and back up CC dong anything else iwth out request causes problems for others escpecially healer.

A 'savy' hunter will wait a few seconds open with barbed and build from there leaving big dps for the last half one third of the mobs HP. It saves on your armour repairs not getting hit :p

Of course there are exceptions, clear trash normal mobs, CC on ranged mobs going at minstrels and so on but as a general rule Hunters are not tanks leave the tanks to tank, healers to heal and CC'ers to crowd control, learn your skills and only step in on request or when things go 'pear shape'.

[oblivion147]

Even though I agree Hunters are not main tanks this game has been turned into such a DPS race that running in Strength stance is postively encouraged. Taking the Grand Stair for example most of the Mobs have 16k, 2 hunters in Strength will down those without much hassle in no time at all, if doing hard mode it is simply a waste of time to allow any trash to be tanked, Pre MOM Beta my main was a tank and the more I play the more redundant they seem but thats a different discussion.

Continuing with the Grand Stairs, on the final boss it is much more beneficial to use the slow and kite method then have a melee stood there getting beaten on.

In our Kin we now let all our Hunters run in strength Stance through almost all instances, its just quicker and easier, yes it can go wrong but that's some of the fun. There are obviously good hunters and bad hunters but it is not up to me to decide what makes a good or bad player.

Speaking of tanking a hunter is an awesome off-tank for ranged mobs with our innate evade, hunters are amazing in multi mobs pulls when a ranged gets free and locks on to your healer.

[Kindoffer]

Even though I agree Hunters are not main tanks this game has been turned into such a DPS race that running in Strength stance is postively encouraged. Taking the Grand Stair for example most of the Mobs have 16k, 2 hunters in Strength will down those without much hassle in no time at all, if doing hard mode it is simply a waste of time to allow any trash to be tanked, Pre MOM Beta my main was a tank and the more I play the more redundant they seem but thats a different discussion.

Continuing with the Grand Stairs, on the final boss it is much more beneficial to use the slow and kite method then have a melee stood there getting beaten on.

In our Kin we now let all our Hunters run in strength Stance through almost all instances, its just quicker and easier, yes it can go wrong but that's some of the fun. There are obviously good hunters and bad hunters but it is not up to me to decide what makes a good or bad player.
Interesting. To me it sounds strange that tanking has started feeling like a waste of time. As Kaninen already has mentioned, however, she is not speaking of end-game experience with poor behaviour of Hunters. Chances are, any Hunters who have made it that far and are welcome into fellowships, is a good one. Again, we're talking about random Hunters you run across during the course of the game, as you require groups in order to finish up certain quests.

Speaking of tanking a hunter is an awesome off-tank for ranged mobs with our innate evade, hunters are amazing in multi mobs pulls when a ranged gets free and locks on to your healer.
This has already been brought up earlier in the thread, and no-one is disputing that, but this topic is - as Kaninen has tried to state very clearly - about most Hunters deciding it's a good idea to initiate combat with a group of three elites or more. The Hunter herself may not notice the giant mess this creates, but everyone else certainly do. I'll chime in with the rest of the healers who have already replied, and say that a Hunter who draws aggro due to careless shooting is not going to get any help from me. It's a waste of my power, and we all know I'll quickly climb the threat list and be next in line for a pounding.

[Darzil]

There are occasions when hunter tanking works best. Book 14, Chapter 1 always sprang to mind, where a Guardian can't do enough damage to the boss to stop him going back over his add-summoning trigger points, but a hunter can, and can stand up to the boss well enough to tank. Hunter on boss whilst rest kill adds is much better than Hunter+Guardian on boss whilst rest kill adds, which was the tactic I'd previously seen used.

In a group, when on my hunter, I'll not worry about having one non-boss mob on me too much, usually. I'm usually on my Guardian, and these days the best strategy is usually not to worry about losing aggro on the one the dps are killing, but to control all the rest and keep them off the minstrel. Bosses are often an exception, of course. The one time I'll often switch to Strength stance is to get aggro off Minstrels, as a Minstrel who can heal is better than an interrupted one.

The hunter is a very flexible character, with many tools and stances, and no guide can cover realistically the different things you can do in unexpected situations. A "never get aggro off the tank" instruction can work in many circumstances, but in many other circumstances is a sub-optimal plan. It doesn't tend to hurt as the default intention, however, especially in a group that doesn't know you.

Darzil

[Silmahad]

What type of tanking are we talking about?

MTanking? shouldn't be a hunters job (the watcher maybe as an exception). But sadly, there are enough hunters out there, who are able to draw aggro within the first 10 seonds of a bossfight and don't even know what Beneath Notice is...

Offtanking? Sure, but depends on mob type. There are Elites and Elitemasters out there, who hit like a girl and there are 9k mobs, like the guards in the midnight instance who hit like a truck and 7k mobs like the ones in Dark Delvings who shred you in pieces with 1,2k shadow damage attacks...it just depends and in many cases you don't have enough CC (stun, AE-tanking by guardians etc.) to cover all mobs. As a hunter I like range tanking of archer mobs if no other CC is available. Better the thing hits me as the minstrel.

[Erhnam]

What type of tanking are we talking about?

MTanking? shouldn't be a hunters job (the watcher maybe as an exception). But sadly, there are enough hunters out there, who are able to draw aggro within the first 10 seonds of a bossfight and don't even know what Beneath Notice is...

Offtanking? Sure, but depends on mob type. There are Elites and Elitemasters out there, who hit like a girl and there are 9k mobs, like the guards in the midnight instance who hit like a truck and 7k mobs like the ones in Dark Delvings who shred you in pieces with 1,2k shadow damage attacks...it just depends and in many cases you don't have enough CC (stun, AE-tanking by guardians etc.) to cover all mobs. As a hunter I like range tanking of archer mobs if no other CC is available. Better the thing hits me as the minstrel.

So true. Yeah, a hunter can tank...just the healer behind him has to spend double amount of power. So to those hunters that say "I can tank" (again, as stated by others, not talking about those ranged tanked mobs), remember that you are not tanking...you are just being healed

[Silmahad]

So true. Yeah, a hunter can tank...just the healer behind him has to spend double amount of power. So to those hunters that say "I can tank" (again, as stated by others, not talking about those ranged tanked mobs), remember that you are not tanking...you are just being healed


Yes, you have to be healed, but if the alternative is a mob (or even a couple) hitting the minstrel and interrupting him, it's better as doing nothing. You do not always have the standard group setup with guardian, loremaster and/or rogue. We did all instances (with exception of DD, last Boss) with a Captain, 2 x champions, 2 x hunter and a minstrel. It's a risky setup, but damned fast if performed well. We didn't chose this setup, cos we wanted to try it this way, it just happened (small kin and friendlist).

Sure, if there is any other CC or heavy armor, who will obviously perform better with mezzing or offtanking, he should have the first shot at it, but there we are already on the next topic "champions who just stand besides the guardian, hitting his target without noticing the adds spawning and crawling everywhere and not moving out of the fire" ("move out of the fire!" is the most important rule in every MORPG, it just explains everything, plain and simple). That would be too much information for today, lets discuss that another day.

Attention, irony! :-)

[oblivion147]

Interesting. To me it sounds strange that tanking has started feeling like a waste of time. As Kaninen already has mentioned, however, she is not speaking of end-game experience with poor behaviour of Hunters. Chances are, any Hunters who have made it that far and are welcome into fellowships, is a good one. Again, we're talking about random Hunters you run across during the course of the game, as you require groups in order to finish up certain quests.


This has already been brought up earlier in the thread, and no-one is disputing that, but this topic is - as Kaninen has tried to state very clearly - about most Hunters deciding it's a good idea to initiate combat with a group of three elites or more. The Hunter herself may not notice the giant mess this creates, but everyone else certainly do. I'll chime in with the rest of the healers who have already replied, and say that a Hunter who draws aggro due to careless shooting is not going to get any help from me. It's a waste of my power, and we all know I'll quickly climb the threat list and be next in line for a pounding.

Fair enough and I take your points, being in a steady Kin for such a long time I get used to playing with the same people and knowing how they work, I imagine that fresh faced hunters running in max pew pew and shouting HEALZ can be a little annoying :)

Tanking for the most past does feel irrelevant now, if 2 hunters can kill an elite mob at range in a few seconds, surely this is better than waiting for a tank to get aggro, recieve damage and then finally allowing the hunters to open up with reduced damage output to make sure aggro is maintained. It's not what I personally want from the game to be honest and I don't like classes being made redundant but from running groups with and without Tanks they just feel like dead weight and that is horrible. Then when you finally get to a situation when something does need tanking, the so-called main tanking classes are not even the best for the job anymore.

[hasassin]

hımm what is the point? hunters tanking ability vs pulling all mobs in camp:S no class can last long if u overaggro.

i play hunter long times and i can say im pretty good with my class so belive what i say. sometimes hunters r best tanks sometimes not depends on the situation.its obvius as u know.
if area is big and boss is a stupid melee mob why u need to tank and take dmg all the time? KITE it.even hunter doesnt dps much he/she can hold aggro easily and even hunter loose aggro can take it back in 2-3 seconds. i belive hunters aggro is the real aggro.no need to argue hunters tanking/kiting ability we have limited tanking capacity with far best kiting ability.yes hunters can tank.

topic whines about a hunter who pulls many mobs its not about hunters ability to tank or it means lotro hunters suck.dunno why every1 focussed about hunter tanking :D so u mean guardian is right to pull all mobs in camp and die in a few second also fellow whipes??? what is the difference between hunter and guardian in this situation? comon guys its not about classes it matters players.

[Scatha the Worm]

hımm what is the point? hunters tanking ability vs pulling all mobs in camp:S no class can last long if u overaggro.
"Last long" is about 6-10s for a hunter in a big pull (5 elites). A guardian can last much longer. So does a captain, and a champ. Haven't seen a warden, but I would think so too.

i play hunter long times and i can say im pretty good with my class so belive what i say. sometimes hunters r best tanks sometimes not depends on the situation.its obvius as u know.
Seems you're doing well on the ego department. Hunters are good for tanking... the watcher & co. For any other boss I can think of there are much better alternatives (several ones).

if area is big and boss is a stupid melee mob why u need to tank and take dmg all the time? KITE it.even hunter doesnt dps much he/she can hold aggro easily and even hunter loose aggro can take it back in 2-3 seconds. i belive hunters aggro is the real aggro.no need to argue hunters tanking/kiting ability we have limited tanking capacity with far best kiting ability.yes hunters can tank.
Kiting != tanking. It is a very different thing. If a hunter starts kiting, his DPS goes down the drain, and since that is our main role, we become pretty much useless by kiting. In most scenarios where kiting is used, things can turn around into mayhem very rapidly (ie kiter dies on a bad corner turn, because kiters are usually very squishy, and healer gets aggro immediately). And rks can do it somewhat better, I've seen that.

topic whines about a hunter who pulls many mobs its not about hunters ability to tank or it means lotro hunters suck.dunno why every1 focussed about hunter tanking :D so u mean guardian is right to pull all mobs in camp and die in a few second also fellow whipes??? what is the difference between hunter and guardian in this situation? comon guys its not about classes it matters players.
A guardian can withstand a multiple pull with all aggro on him. Yes, he'll need heals, but no so badly as to be straining the healers, and even then have a good chance of dying anyway. The quality of players matter a big deal, but class role definitions are there for a very good reason.

[ValgrenDaar]

what is the difference between hunter and guardian in this situation?.

The guardian has tools to aid his survival in these situations, the hunter doesn't.

[Konnje]

"Last long" is about 6-10s for a hunter in a big pull (5 elites). A guardian can last much longer. So does a captain, and a champ. Haven't seen a warden, but I would think so too.



Champs in Pug can be much worse tanks then a hunter, as i understand this threat is about Pug groups, and then i understand your point, but when it comes to kin runs it depends who you are grouping with and change your playstyle after that, cant see why a hunter cant tank when its need for it and the other classes are helpful in other ways then tanking a silly boss, adds can be more painful then bosses sometimes..
have even heard minstrels said hunters are easier to heal then cpt and champ, sure we loose some dps, but if me make the group/raid sucsess we have done a good job anyway..

and for big pulls, low cut, bards arrow, distraction shot, (even make the group stand behind a wall so you get the arches in melee range aswell for the tank) kite until the rest of the grp got controll of some of them and keep kiting so then have less to worry about, but if you stand still you will die.. but ive seen pulls that are much worse then a hunter pull becouse of the short range other classes have to pull from..
there are so many ways of making a hunter a good puller even a "offtank" even if you play in pugs..

[OMWiener]

*sigh*

I just hope i never have to group with a tanking hunter. I'll df and leave group I think.

kite until the rest of the grp got controll of some of them and keep kiting so then have less to worry about, but if you stand still you will die..

*pictures benny hill music*

Seriously the occasions you can actually kite large groups of mobs are very rare in Moria. Unless you off course wanna pull the entire instance.

[Scatha the Worm]

*sigh*

I just hope i never have to group with a tanking hunter. I'll df and leave group I think.



*pictures benny hill music*

Seriously the occasions you can actually kite large groups of mobs are very rare in Moria. Unless you off course wanna pull the entire instance.

QFT

And for god's sake, kiting is not tanking! There are 4 other classes much better suited for the job of tanking, why do you keep trying to make a case for it? A hunter is in no way prepared for REAL tanking, get over it already.

[Valandir]

A hunter is in no way prepared for REAL tanking, get over it already.
at least since the B/P/E-cap which came wit MoM :(

before, if there was any ranged-mob which was not in the guardians range, it was the hunter's job to "tank" it and bring it to the group (if no burglar with traitet enrage was present). it is still the hunter's job imho, but we take way more dmg...

[Erhnam]

have even heard minstrels said hunters are easier to heal then cpt and champanyway..

Never heard that, having played a minstrel for a long time, and now playing a RK, I would heal the Chmp/Capt who is tanking, and tos my preventive rez to the tanking hunter, far less stressful (unless he is ranged tanking/nuking some archers, or just trying to pull an add from me). So please, if you hear a minstrel saying that, tell him to delete his char

And yes, kiting is not tanking. I have kitted FG/GS/second DD boss/and a few more with my RK, and trust me, a RK is far better suited to do it, so while i kite the hunter can do which is mean to: DPS. My DPS while kiting is almost the same (at least, if im lightning spec)

But i would never dare to say "I tanked them"

[MéLAnoR]

...

Kiting != tanking. It is a very different thing. If a hunter starts kiting, his DPS goes down the drain, and since that is our main role, we become pretty much useless by kiting. In most scenarios where kiting is used, things can turn around into mayhem very rapidly (ie kiter dies on a bad corner turn, because kiters are usually very squishy, and healer gets aggro immediately).

yeah i was kiting one of the trolls in forges 2nd boss ( some people whine about hunters seeing this as tanking ! Get a dictionary !) and since trolls can reach you with better step range ability if you dont snare them i died after a couple of hits i couldnt manage to snare due to QS resisted and low cut was a bit late which urged me to run towards the middle to get a heal however our healer was hit by a worker troll and that 3 sec stun costed me death ; shame incombat rezz was on cd and that fight lasted like ages og i forgot to say the troll which killed me jump immediately on our healer which might also wipe the fight.
This run ended very embarrasing cause the time we killed the boss we were just 5 secs late for hard mode yeah 5 secs.
For those people who sees kiting as tanking please open wiki and read about mmorp termology.
I cant understand people whining hunters taking over tanking role?
Where did you see that apart from tanking ranged targets to cover healers and the watcher fight?
Go try to get close to watcher in melee and then what happens?
Anyways this thread is not about that : its about bad hunters who interfere a tanks doing his job and steal agro or grab agro at start.

[Tigerwyn]

A similar thing happened to me a bit ago I was on my captain and as the only class in my party who could tank I did what had to be done then this hunter joins and before I can even reach a orc he start's pulling em he might have been a higher lvl than me but I was still tanking

[Konnje]

Never heard that, having played a minstrel for a long time, and now playing a RK, I would heal the Chmp/Capt who is tanking, and tos my preventive rez to the tanking hunter, far less stressful (unless he is ranged tanking/nuking some archers, or just trying to pull an add from me). So please, if you hear a minstrel saying that, tell him to delete his char


this threat is mostly about pugs as i understood it, or bad comunications in Kin..
Champs got diffrent stances just like then hunters, a champ in fervour is not a "tank", just becous he got heavy armour doessen't say hes a good offtank, lets say you asked a champ to tank, but he still goes in fervour, he got 0 block/parry/evade, would you say he is easy to heal then? or steals the aggro from the main tank in the grp, still in fervour, is he OK for you to heal then? but not a hunter with parry/evade?
I agree to a hunter is not a tank, but mns plays like that in pugs is just as bad as a tanking hunter in my opinion..

[Kaninen]

Kiting != tanking. It is a very different thing ...things can turn around into mayhem very rapidly (ie kiter dies on a bad corner turn, because kiters are usually very squishy, and healer gets aggro immediately).
...
The quality of players matter a big deal, but class role definitions are there for a very good reason.
...
A hunter is in no way prepared for REAL tanking, get over it already.

Thanks for saying that!

I feel that my thread maybe isn't going too well... some people seem to have the impression that if they describe an event wherein their Hunter stretched game mechanics enough to tip-toe around a situation where a tank was needed, this somehow makes them as good as tanks or means they can tank.

And I feel the need to say again, taking on the odd add or whatnot is not tanking. Kiting is not tanking either, it is the AVOIDANCE of having to tank. As Scatha said in the bit I quoted here, there are roles for a reason.

Just wanted to add... a Warden can withstand multiple tanking targets on him/her as well, at least according to my experiences under level 40, so far. I often have a couple of adds as well as the main baddy bonking away at me. :) AOE self-heals, AOE taunts and, of course, tactics make it work fine - with a hefty healer or two, of course! But I don't lose aggro even with them spamming their healing skills, if I keep my head in the game.

That was a bit of a side-track...

No matter how many instances of pushing the game geometry and mechanics and tips and tricks people can come up with, these are not the definition of tanking. Tanks exist for a reason and hunters are not tanks.

On the other hand, I feel that Hunters are the best candidate for taking on ranged adds, especially with the appropriate virtues equipped. Hard to stack both direct ranged AND melee mitigation for tanks and melee fighters, otherwise.

@Konnje - I also play a Champion. When I off-tank, I use my bitchin' shield which gives me a 50% increase to my armour, and I TURN OFF Fervour. Champions do have two other stances, you know (granted Ardour is pretty... useless, I'd say). In fact, when facing mobs a few levels higher than me playing alone or with one other person, I need to have Fervour turned off so I don't die horribly.

If a Champion is specced for it (ie in "The Martial Champion" path) they could make a decent off-tank. I don't see why anyone would make that choice, though - better to choose another class entirely. I go for critting like a madman, personally.

I'd like to see more Hunters using their trapping skills, which can be very useful for CC and fellowships, especially when traited.

[Konnje]

@Konnje - I also play a Champion. When I off-tank, I use my bitchin' shield which gives me a 50% increase to my armour, and I TURN OFF Fervour. Champions do have two other stances, you know (granted Ardour is pretty... useless, I'd say). In fact, when facing mobs a few levels higher than me playing alone or with one other person, I need to have Fervour turned off so I don't die horribly.


yeah, thats my point, have grouped with champs that tries to tank WITH fervour and dont change stance and dont equip a shield, in pugs.. hope that made it clearer for you..

[Kindoffer]

yeah, thats my point, have grouped with champs that tries to tank WITH fervour and dont change stance and dont equip a shield, in pugs.. hope that made it clearer for you..
Not trying to bash either class, but I think most immature people seem to be drawn to either the Champion or the Hunter class. The problem you explain with Champions trying to tank in Fervour without a shield, can be likened to a Hunter entering a fellowship and going all out with Strength stance activated. It's just... moronic. Both classes are extremely useful for various reasons, and they're not exactly too complex to play well either, but for some reason kids can't even grasp the simplest of mechanics.

(Again, it's PUGs we're talking about here. Obviously, organised fellowships in kinships and the like look different.)

[Kironiel]

Well, in most boss-fights champion can easilly go Controlled Burn and dual wield without endangering the fellowship if he knows what he is dooing, although, of course, glory + Heroic Nobles Heavy Shield or Wall of the Resolute Guardian makes it even more easy. The problem, as I have seen, is usually when someone with crappy gear and even crappier trait setup goes all out ferevor and thinks he can tank. Even worse, he usually does not know why some bosses are actually better tanked by champ than guard and has no idea what is clober for. Sadly, in PUGs there is no shortage of such champions - I mean, lvl 60 champ with less than 4k morale???

As for the hunters - when I am on my hunter I sometimes go strength stance on purpose to drop a few slowing shots at mobs, then go endurance/prec as needed. And, of course Strength+Burn Hot+Heartseaker for finishing moves :) People seem to forget that they can actually change those stances during combat.

Actually, ONLY boss where hunter is acctually tanking per se - i.e. always on the mob and takes hits and is beeing healed etc. is Watcher - as you can not really tank watcher in Melee, it is hunter's job to keep watcher on him and also it works best to have second hunter tanking healing tentacles. On all other bosses it is always either kiting or switching agro around if it is easier than having a proper tank on the boss (like Igash in Grand stairs - way easier to have him slowed and running around between hunters switching agro around than tank him).

[Mistradir]

Dear hunters,
my main character is a guardian in server Laurelin by the name Gaernath. He is probably one of the first guardians that reached 5900 morale in the server without sacrificing might or agility for getting more morale. I have tanked anything that walks, flies or crawls in Middle Earth so I have a very good opinion about tanking and it seems that this is a very good thread to share it with you.

So:
- A primary tank is always the guardian. Tanking does not mean keeping the threat. It means actually staying alive fighting a 200k nemesis boss that does 2-3k damage per strike. Some classes can draw aggro from me, like hunters, captains and champions. This is fatal for the fellowship, cause I lose all my power trying to get back the aggro, from the threat-stealers and thus making no damage at all to the boss myself, or even not trying to heal myself cause I have no power left. Ofc, at some instances like GS, Igash can be fought by a hunter, but this is NOT tanking. Kiting and praying to the almighty that the boss never reach my char to hit me in melee mode is not tanking. It is lottery. You may win and ofc you may lose. But if you lose, the minnie has to res you and meanwhile he doesn't heal the rest of the fel, so more deaths may occur while tanking. So, leave tanking to the heavy armour (at least a cap or champ).

- A secondary tank may be a champ or a captain. Both can draw aggro from a mob, but the champ is needed mainly in the cases of interrupt tactics (Clobber). Other that that, a guardian always has more armour (shield), aggro skills that can protect the others (save the minnies life), and better power regen and healing abilities than the champ. The captain though is a very good tanking option cause he can choose his buffs carefully and finish the battle without problems. This means he can draw aggro (not like a tank ofc, but relatively well), he can regen power good enough to last and also his Last Stand is a perfect tanking skill.

- Tanking as I said is not about threat. Whoever thinks so doesn't know tanking at all. The ultimate tanking lesson was at lvl 50 at Balrog. You were left alone with the elf tanking Balrog, while the rest of the raid was fighting the Everseer inside. This is the meaning of tanking. Staying alive at all costs, with very poor healing help and actually standing on your own reserves. It is not strange that in every battle a good tank dies last.

Moria has weakened the guardian's role by reducing the threat generated by him. I hope this changes, so that the guardians get back their initial prestige. Tank means physical resistance to melee and ranged damage, and I hope the GMs remember that soon.

Regards to you all.

An honoured guardian.

[Kironiel]

With all due respect, Mistradir, there are situations where kiting is very viable tactics, like aforementhioned Igash fight - two decent hunters can have him running between them to no end, dooing almost no damage and not endngering anyone. In that fight, IMO, guardian is best used to controll the two ranged adds, exactly for the reasons you menthioned - better agro managing skills, more armour and so on. Also, regarding the power regenration - decently kitted champion who knows what skills to use and when rarely runs out of power unless the fight is very long and there are no mobs dying along the way. However, like always it depends mainly on the people involved in the fight - how well they know their characters strengths and weaknesses, how well they can cooperate and how well they know the fight. Whoever says that guardians are useless in Moria is sorely mistaken though - yes you CAN tank any tankiable boss in it using champion - I have done it. You can actually do nearly any instance in Moria with almost any setup of classes (well save Watcher - you do need a ranged tank on him). But you could also tank any boss in game on champion pre-Moria as well. What guardian adds to the fight is the fact that it is much, much easier to do it if you have proper tank. And if high DPS classes know how to work togeather with tank - it makes them easier still.

[Mistradir]

I agree with the GS tactics mentioned above, but unfortunately this is due to erroneous game design. In the pro-Moria days there was no instance that could be done without a guardian. Now there are some game design flaws that have caused the guardians role to become less significant. This is NOT a proof though that anyone can tank, as the instances that exist in Moria are very easy and are not a good example in comparison to Rift or Helegrod, where a guardian was the first char to start the invites with.

As I mentioned before, the absorption of melee damage can only be accomplished by a guardian. There are many problems in Moria architecture as a gameplay and guardian's lack of role is a not the only one. I will just ask you one question: Tell me why in the crafted sets of jewellery there are not any suitable items for heavy armour classes except the sublime dawn-rose necklace. Just ask yourself this question and you 'll see that when Moria was designed a lot of things were badly developed.

As I said I am waiting for the tank's role to be improved. Otherwise the game will lose it's most impressive class. The class that dies last!

[Mistradir]

As for the statement that in pre-Moria instances you could tank any boss with a champion this is not true. Only a good guardian could solo Balrog with only the healing help from the Elf, until the rest of the raid would be able to finish the boss inside the room.
This is what has changed and makes me actually very frustrated.

Also in book 5 chapter 5, my guardian was attacked by an 80k morale Berserker with only the healing help of a nearby guardian NPC, while the rest of the fellowship was fighting in another barricade. I got him to 35k until a minnie arrived and save me from a certain death(my power was gone, hehe). This is the guardian's job and no one else can do it better.
:)

[Dirtball]

I agree with the GS tactics mentioned above, but unfortunately this is due to erroneous game design. In the pro-Moria days there was no instance that could be done without a guardian. Now there are some game design flaws that have caused the guardians role to become less significant. This is NOT a proof though that anyone can tank, as the instances that exist in Moria are very easy and are not a good example in comparison to Rift or Helegrod, where a guardian was the first char to start the invites with.

As I mentioned before, the absorption of melee damage can only be accomplished by a guardian. There are many problems in Moria architecture as a gameplay and guardian's lack of role is a not the only one. I will just ask you one question: Tell me why in the crafted sets of jewellery there are not any suitable items for heavy armour classes except the sublime dawn-rose necklace. Just ask yourself this question and you 'll see that when Moria was designed a lot of things were badly developed.

As I said I am waiting for the tank's role to be improved. Otherwise the game will lose it's most impressive class. The class that dies last!
I like Guardian's, I really do, but I think your above argument is flawed. Basically pre-MoM almost any instance could be done by missing out any of the classes (including a minstrel) except for a Guardian. Therefore a lot of the time you were reliant on a Guardian but no other class. However since MoM this is not true, and the Guardian has become as useless (or useful) as any other class. You can make practically any instance with many different types of set-ups now.

So looking at it like this the Guardian is now in the same boat that everyone else was pre-MoM.

Like I said, I like the Guardian and most of the time I'd still rather have one in my group, however any class is now as expendable as the rest.

[Saurfenion]

Why are there no wardens in you list? Wardens are tanks too, just in a different way.. Sure you can come up with that we dont have heavy armor.. But we do have +- 39% evasion (15% B/E/P), quit some partial evasion and currently my warden is regenerating 500morale/3s + 1800icmr (just to give an idea i solo'd the endboss of mightnight raid for fun and never been below 5000health during the whole fight (i got around 5400morale on my warden)).. Making us just as well qualify as tanks since we nuteralize damage just as well, just in a completely different way and perhaps shine in different situations..

So perhaps a warden is not a tank in its most formal definition, i do think we are one of the closest classes that furfill the same role as that of a guardian..

Back to the subject.. Certains bosses are just flawed.. In my oppinion its not right that alot of the final bosses can be kited around while they are beeing slowed/snared/rooted/mezzed, unless they are really designed for it like the final boss in phase 1 and 2 in Fil Gashen.. For everything else it should not be possible to kite them like they are kited now..

I dont not aggree though that only gaurdians should be able to tank them. A warden (even discribed that way by turbine) or even a champion/captain that is build for tanking (traitwise) should be able to do it just as well..

And i agree even less how the watchers works (but that raid is flawed and rushed in every possible way).. But this has nothing todo with hunters, but more with flawed instance/raid design..

[Kironiel]

As for the statement that in pre-Moria instances you could tank any boss with a champion this is not true. Only a good guardian could solo Balrog with only the healing help from the Elf, until the rest of the raid would be able to finish the boss inside the room.
This is what has changed and makes me actually very frustrated.



Erm, sorry to say but you are wrong - I have successfully tanked all bosses in game pre-Moria exept for Thorog - and that is because we always have had guardians in Thorog fight. Of course it is way EASIER to tank them on guard (I have guardian as well) but to say that it was not possible to tank end-bosses in instances pre-Moria is plain wrong. I have done it and I know plenty of other champions who did it. As for the Balrog - when the last lock was openeed after everseer went down and elf stopped healing you, elf guardian can hit Eldars Grace getting 75% parry for 10 seconds which gives some breathing room for the rest of the group to get out of everseer room and give you healing. Tough? Yes. Impossible? No way.

[Mistradir]

Erm, sorry to say but you are wrong - I have successfully tanked all bosses in game pre-Moria exept for Thorog - and that is because we always have had guardians in Thorog fight. Of course it is way EASIER to tank them on guard (I have guardian as well) but to say that it was not possible to tank end-bosses in instances pre-Moria is plain wrong. I have done it and I know plenty of other champions who did it. As for the Balrog - when the last lock was openeed after everseer went down and elf stopped healing you, elf guardian can hit Eldars Grace getting 75% parry for 10 seconds which gives some breathing room for the rest of the group to get out of everseer room and give you healing. Tough? Yes. Impossible? No way.

Try it then without an elves' race skill. I am not talking about the exception, but I am just explaining the rule. Rule is that, on Balrog, only a tank can solo without jeopardizing the raid.

[sinomiel]

lol @ where this thread has ended up :)

i completely understand the idea behind the OP. the only trouble is, those muppet hunters usually cannot be taught, no matter how hard you try to explain. maybe if you find out the hunter is their 1st character and they need to learn something about the game mechanics here, you stand a chance :)

ad guardians:
many (most?) of the instances in shadows of angmar could be done without a grd, i´ve been there, i´ve seen it. and lol, why should an elf guardian not use their racial when they have it? would be a bit weirder if hobbits used hobbit silence, though :)

ad wardens:
the class is awesome (i play, i know) and a fully capable tank but still needs to be recognized, so patience, saurfenion, patience :)

i did a bit of tanking (real tanking) on my hunter but never in pugs and always with the consent of my minstrel and just for fun. i even saw a hunter succesfully tanking thorog! (in the all-hunter attempt, that is. pity we wiped because someone did not cure the eye :p and btw, it was still in SoA). you can always stretch the limits or try to, but as it has been stated several times before, the original post is not about exploring the options, it´s about horrible hunters. we can only pray that at least some of them read the forums and can take advice :)

[Kironiel]

Try it then without an elves' race skill. I am not talking about the exception, but I am just explaining the rule. Rule is that, on Balrog, only a tank can solo without jeopardizing the raid.

Well I have seen a man champion do that - again, not easy, but managable, that is why we have racial traits, that 3k heal comes in right handy. Of course, that was done using top-end heavy shield to have more armour. And by a very good champion who knew exactly when and what to do. My point is - you COULD tank end-bosses on champion even back before Moria, but if you had guardian avaliable, then tanking, quite obviously, was guardians job. And after Moria it si the same - you can tank bosses with champion, but it is best if guardian does it, if one is avaliable.

[LAW666]

Dear hunters,

Moria has weakened the guardian's role by reducing the threat generated by him. I hope this changes, so that the guardians get back their initial prestige. Tank means physical resistance to melee and ranged damage, and I hope the GMs remember that soon.

Regards to you all.

An honoured guardian.

i totally agree, ive always said its not the hunters job to tank and im dammned annoyed that instead of balancing the threat generation for Guards and Champs etc alike they decide to lower dps output of the hunter, correct me if im wrong but a hunters primary role is single enemy dps not unlike a sniper in real life...i can understand why an enemy may switch its attention to a hunter due to a couple of massive hits, just increase the threat generation for the guards etc, when im not fuming with anger lol i can understand somewhat the problems the devs face dealing with this issue. Give the guards a break hell give them better threat and stop the hunter hate!!

surely if they just took a little more time in planning in the first place none of this would be an issue...

Getting back to the original post many new hunters make this mistake of aggroing everything, its because they dont fully understand how that char works, done it many times when i first started playing as a hunter...ask the hunter to go in endurance stance and call out a target for him or hunter ask the same of your group leader... i rolled a guardian and was put down badly by a kin friend cos his GF who played as a RK died...he said it was my fault for not aggroing everything (all this for the sake of a title btw)...i told him straight ive just started playing as guardian gimme a break ive yet to get use to a melee char and the diff skills..hell i was only lvl 11...not all of us are proficient with many chars and some of us have only just started playing MMO games myself having come from many years playing FPS