my idea for our traits.

[Elukriel]

so far ive found that bowmaster is the most effective tratiline...im not a big fan of huge DPS over the CC traits but whatever some people are so yeah.

i found the huntsmen traitline to be pretty much useless excluding the press onward thing, but with the cooldown being ridiculous its still abit bad, and the legendary huntsmen improved fleet speaks for itself.

the trapper traitline is a stunning idea but i think its executed badly, i dont see any reason for the reduced damage, especially in the x4 one. we gain PS root n the CD goes to 30 secs to counterbalance that, it shouldnt have the ranged damage decrease aswell.

leave bowmaster as it is, people seem to like it but maybe increase the power cost of it.

for huntsmen, give a skill somehwere in there that makes camoflague moveable. and also something like 30% + crit chance wile in camo, making it abit more useful. that could be instead of the improved fleet stance, or jsut for 2. whatever.

for trapper just take away the x4 damage reduction. i understand SOME reduction but at that level its abit ridiculous.

[Noerenn]

I dont like the moveable camouflage since we are no burglars. Dont like the +crit in camouflage too because we already do huge damage and creeps will whine we 1 shot them even more. (heart seeker in camouflage will be a pain for them)

The damage reduce in trapper set is ridiculous yes i agree and improved fleet stance sucks.

[Elukriel]

I dont like the moveable camouflage since we are no burglars. Dont like the +crit in camouflage too because we already do huge damage and creeps will whine we 1 shot them even more. (heart seeker in camouflage will be a pain for them)

The damage reduce in trapper set is ridiculous yes i agree and improved fleet stance sucks.


then make it less effective than the burglars sneak, or give it a bigger cooldown, like we can do decent CC now but we aint LRM? plus the hunters from mirkwood and lorien were good at stealth movement if you wish to link it too the lore. the crit in camo wouldnt one shot as the 25% damage increase from BM would be gone. and if the crit is made to be the huntsmen legendary trait then it seems fair =/.

[Ulanor]

I dont like the idea of the moveable camo or anything, infact apart from the stance i do actually like huntsman, when i sue that i can cause nearly as much damange as another hunter in the bowmaster simply because of how much faster i can fire.

As for the trapper, I DO agree with the power cost, its the penetrating shot i think should go from there, i mean its hardly a benefit the root isnt that fantastic and its a very good damage skill reduced to a very bad one because of that cool down.

[MéLAnoR]

my idea : http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324581

[OMWiener]

... infact apart from the stance i do actually like huntsman, when i sue that i can cause nearly as much damange as another hunter in the bowmaster simply because of how much faster i can fire.

.


I agree. I don't get why people are shunning huntsmen tbh. Because of fleet stance? Do you really believe cool burn or improved daze shot is worth equipping 5 traits in that respective line? Imo, no.

As such i run a hybrid build with 3BM, 4 HM. BM is good for soloing but is not very good past three traits in groups, since you can't use strength stance that often anyway. So in an effort to increase your damage (which is our main role) in groups, there is only one possibility left imo and that's through reduced inductions.

my two cents

[Nimilanor]

Imo,

im using 4/3 huntsmen bow master same as wiener,
and it works like a charm -20% inductions.. -45% even when using needful haste
combined with resolute aim is a recipe for massive dps with low induction and no knockbacks.

Then combine it with +15% dps and +10% crits from Bow mastery and you get some really nice figures, only need to worry about icpr.. though thats counterable with tome and chants if you have them :).

Still im thinking about doing 4 / 2 / 1 Hunts / Bow / Trapper, the trapper being gracefull draw to draw less aggro and power, though it does render the bowmastery dps useless,
but will save me alot of headache in instances, example (really happend) :

me and a captain were easily pulling off aggro on 2 great playing grds in 16th hall..
with a -9 threat bow.. -20% aggro from endurance.. and a tome+chant to reduce aggro..

then still overaggroing a guard.. well that says something about my dps lol..
And about guardians threat sucking badly..

[Ulanor]

me and a captain were easily pulling off aggro on 2 great playing grds in 16th hall..
with a -9 threat bow.. -20% aggro from endurance.. and a tome+chant to reduce aggro..

then still overaggroing a guard.. well that says something about my dps lol..
And about guardians threat sucking badly..



Hmmmm might need to work with that guard some more as I can be in full out Strength stance and not draw aggro despite using everything I have.

Tho yeah if the captain used noble mark he would do because thats broken at the moment, if he wasnt, Hmmmm very nice DPS from that Captain then ! :D

[OMWiener]

Hmmmm might need to work with that guard some more as I can be in full out Strength stance and not draw aggro despite using everything I have.

mmhh Ciowyn can confirm we are workin with the better guards on our server (amongst many other good guards) and there's no way i'm not pulling aggro in strength stance. It might sometimes take a bit longer then other times. So i'm interested in a couple of things what you are doing/using: speed of bow, -threat book using, -threat legacies using, crit legacies using, agi, crit rating, lvl of bow, range of damage on bow? please :)

[Ulanor]

mmhh Ciowyn can confirm we are workin with the better guards on our server (amongst many other good guards) and there's no way i'm not pulling aggro in strength stance. It might sometimes take a bit longer then other times. So i'm interested in a couple of things what you are doing/using: speed of bow, -threat book using, -threat legacies using, crit legacies using, agi, crit rating, lvl of bow, range of damage on bow? please :)


Will have to check the bow stats when i get in, but its a fully traited lvl 59 3rd age bow, my crit rating as we have a captain with us is capped at 15 and my dev crit at about 5.7. I dont generally use the threat book as I need the power although i may have been in the fight I am thinking of not sure, there are no threat reducing legacies on the bow only crit damage increases.

Agility is at 530. Errr as I said I will check the exact bow stats when i get in unless someone knows the normal ones for that level ?

[Silmahad]

mmhh Ciowyn can confirm we are workin with the better guards on our server (amongst many other good guards) and there's no way i'm not pulling aggro in strength stance. It might sometimes take a bit longer then other times. So i'm interested in a couple of things what you are doing/using: speed of bow, -threat book using, -threat legacies using, crit legacies using, agi, crit rating, lvl of bow, range of damage on bow? please :)

I play a hunter with 6 radiance pieces and a couple of other nice equipment (Ferongol cloak from 16. Hall, 2x Sapphire Ring from Stairs, Wrist from Stairs and Smithy, Golden Earring and this Diamond earring with loads of moral and fate).

My agi unbuffed is usually 567 for fellowship play, depends on items I can switch in and out. With buffs I get to the cap easily. At 567 agi and without buffs, I have 13,8 % ranged crit. Meanwhile I am thinking about switching Determination for another trait (maybe Wisdom, or another trait with some fate).

I have equipped 3 BM / 4 HM traits, cos I damned like the -20% induction time in combination with Fast Draw.

BM: Critical Eye, Deadly Precision, True Shot (might change the last one for Swift and True)

HM: Fast Draw, Resolute Aim, Strong Draw, Swift Recovery

Legendaries: BA, RoT, (improved) Press Onward

I use a lvl 58 Second Age Bow with maxed dps ... and a level 59 or 60 one should better have the absolute dream legacies, to beat the 2,5 speed delay from the 58ish. Otherwise a lvl 59 or 60 SA bow is just a power waster. Even for PvM a 2,5 delay is better, cos bigger crits = more burst damage.

Sadly no crit amplifiers on that bow, but I am up to maximize reduced threat to focus skills, reduced threat to induction skills, reduced threat to Quick Shot in S:E (all up to level 5 or 6 now), reduced power costs to bow skills.

My dream legacies (PvE) would be improved crit damage focus, improved crit damage induction, less threat focus, less threat induction, less power focus, less power induction and perhaps more slow through Quick Shot in S:S (it helps with kiting, most Bosses aren't immune to that).

Even with this bow, heavy trained in threat reduction, with the bigggest threat reduction book and not to forget, only 3 BM instead 4 BM traits (less damage and less aggro), I pull aggro from every guardian, if I use strength stance, even with a aggro generating phase for the guardian of 10 seconds and more...

I usually give more than 10 seconds aggro phase, use endurance stance down to around 30k moral of a boss, if a guardian is tanking, and switch then to S:S, cos 30k isn't that much and I still have Beneath Notice ready.

If a guardian wears no good belt with trained aggro generating feats, it's possible to draw aggro even with endurance stance for me...Beneath Notice and Quick Shot spamming for a couple of seconds or even a total damage stop as a consequence...

The problem that guardians face in MoM is

1) they need a proper belt to generate good aggro
2) people prefer "lazy play", why get a guardian with all that hazzle about "give him time, endurance stance etc.", if you can get a Captain with Noble Mark and you can go all out in S:S with a powersaving book, while the Captain kites the Boss around? I cannot draw aggro from the Captain even using Burn Hot in the 50k moral range of the Boss, I just click improved press onward afterwards and continue to mangle the Boss...

As I know Noble Mark gets nerfed, but I don't know if this is the last solution for the "guardian problem", I guess guardians need more, either more aggro or more utility.

To TO: I have no idea why the HM line feels so disgusting for you, I value this line as the most worthwhile trait line of all. BM is damage with the minus of very high power loss and threat generation, ToF is relative nice CC with the minus of immense damage loss. HM is a solid dps increase by -10 or -20% induction time (in EVERY stance you choose), even more with Fast Draw traited and great synergy between Resolute Aim, Needfull Haste and Swift Recovery. It's discussable, if you trait for damage, you use 4 BM / 3 HM or 3 BM / 4 HM, but with either spec you will have a good build for dps.

Only the legendary trait, Fleet Stance, is pretty useless at moment, so there is no need to spec 5 HM.

[OMWiener]

Thanks for that Silmahad. Although i don't completely agree with your statement about 2.5 speed lvl 58 second age being better then a lvl60 (unless the lvl60 is 2.2 or 2.3 speed), but the rest of your post confirms my suspicions.

I don't really get how Ulanor can avoid getting aggro in strength stance, but i'll try and test some things out with him and his tank since his friends are my friends^^.


PS: You can see my stats in the 'hunter stat' thread. I run with almost same trait setup, although i did slot "swift and true" instead of "true shot".

My dream legacies involve crit and power mostly. Threat is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary imo.

[Silmahad]

Thanks for that Silmahad. Although i don't completely agree with your statement about 2.5 speed lvl 58 second age being better then a lvl60 (unless the lvl60 is 2.2 or 2.3 speed), but the rest of your post confirms my suspicions.

I don't really get how Ulanor can avoid getting aggro in strength stance, but i'll try and test some things out with him and his tank since his friends are my friends^^.


PS: You can see my stats in the 'hunter stat' thread. I run with almost same trait setup, although i did slot "swift and true" instead of "true shot".

My dream legacies involve crit and power mostly. Threat is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary imo.

As I know ALL lvl 59 and 60 SA bows have 2.2 speed and ALL lvl 58 SA ones have 2,5, never seen other speeds on AH bows and I filter the AH bow offers frequently (laughing at the unidentified SA bows offered at 300g buy out...), but you are right, if a lvl 60 SA bow would fall to my feet and it has nice high rank legacies, I would use it at least in PvE, cos I am sure I would be able to cover the more in power drain (what's the worth of a celebrant pot in times of daily mirror runs?), as a plus the reachable max dps of a lvl 60 is a bit higher (no idea, my lvl 58 maxed out at 53,x, a lvl 60 would max out somewhere around 56 I guess).

Noble Mark will get nerfed soon, then threat will be an importance again, but you are right, a bow with only crit magnitude and power reduction at rank 5 or 6, I wouldn't destroy at the relicmaster for sure and if there are 2 bows offered for the same price in the AH, one with crit damage / threat reduction, the other with crit damage and less power costs, I would probably take the last one :-)

[OMWiener]

lvl60 SA has a 59.1 dps ;). I'm not sure, i'll check my friend, but i think she has a 2.4 speed lvl60 SA

[Silmahad]

lvl60 SA has a 59.1 dps ;). I'm not sure, i'll check my friend, but i think she has a 2.4 speed lvl60 SA

If it is 2,4 then it's a clear decision, but I doubt, otherwise you can tell her she was extremely lucky :-)

[Mateuszzzzzz]

As I know ALL lvl 59 and 60 SA bows have 2.2 speed
Level 59 crossbows are speed 2.6.

[Ulanor]

Thanks for that Silmahad. Although i don't completely agree with your statement about 2.5 speed lvl 58 second age being better then a lvl60 (unless the lvl60 is 2.2 or 2.3 speed), but the rest of your post confirms my suspicions.

I don't really get how Ulanor can avoid getting aggro in strength stance, but i'll try and test some things out with him and his tank since his friends are my friends^^.


PS: You can see my stats in the 'hunter stat' thread. I run with almost same trait setup, although i did slot "swift and true" instead of "true shot".

My dream legacies involve crit and power mostly. Threat is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary imo.



Yeah it will be interesting to test, maybe it has just been a fluky lack of crits at the time or something, i wasnt paying THAT much attention, just noticing I didnt get the aggro when i had expected to LOL

[Lenin_]

me and a captain were easily pulling off aggro on 2 great playing grds in 16th hall..
with a -9 threat bow.. -20% aggro from endurance.. and a tome+chant to reduce aggro..


Same sometimes happens to me, I'm not using the chant tho.
But still, I think that using all the threat legacies, improved endurance stance and -threat tome should be enough to keep us under tank on the aggro list. So I'm really waiting for some improvements for tanking classes aggro management.

[Silmahad]

Same sometimes happens to me, I'm not using the chant tho.
But still, I think that using all the threat legacies, improved endurance stance and -threat tome should be enough to keep us under tank on the aggro list. So I'm really waiting for some improvements for tanking classes aggro management.

I agree and I think, that things are already totally messed up, if a class needs a certain item (belt), with the right legacies (threat generation) and needs to level that item legacies almost up to the max, to refill a main role for that class again (tank and head of the aggro list). With the exception of maybe minstrels, no other class has to have such an item to fullfill its tasks, such an item is only an improvement and no fundamental prerequisite for them.

[Ulanor]

I really am confused about some of this, I know for a fact in Endurance stance I havent pulled aggro at all off a tank in MoM, even with fully capped crit ratings, this i without using my threat drop book, and with no threat drop legacies.

[Silmahad]

I really am confused about some of this, I know for a fact in Endurance stance I havent pulled aggro at all off a tank in MoM, even with fully capped crit ratings, this i without using my threat drop book, and with no threat drop legacies.

Was your Tank a Captain with noble mark? :-) Otherwise, if it was a guardian, he had a great belt with maxed threat legacy. Not that I always pull aggro off guardians in endurance stance, only sometimes, aka off guardians without much experience (twinkplay) or without a good belt.

Another question is the bow you are using, there is a difference between a lvl 58 - 60 SA bow with maxed dps or a level 55 TA bow.

The amount of enganging time for the guardian to build up threat is important too. There are many fights where you have to kill adds or have other tasks as shooting on the boss, this always favors the guardian and his threat.

Drawing aggro isn't such a bad, it's ok for testing your limit, just find and click the Beneath Notice button in time.

[Ulanor]

Was your Tank a Captain with noble mark? :-) Otherwise, if it was a guardian, he had a great belt with maxed threat legacy. Not that I always pull aggro off guardians in endurance stance, only sometimes, aka off guardians without much experience (twinkplay) or without a good belt.

Another question is the bow you are using, there is a difference between a lvl 58 - 60 SA bow with maxed dps or a level 55 TA bow.

The amount of enganging time for the guardian to build up threat is important too. There are many fights where you have to kill adds or have other tasks as shooting on the boss, this always favors the guardian and his threat.

Drawing aggro isn't such a bad, it's ok for testing your limit, just find and click the Beneath Notice button in time.


No Guardian, to my knowledge her belt isnt fantastic but then I will check when i see her next, and its a level 59 third age bow fully upgraded. And as I say I have never drawn aggro in endurance with that bow unless it was a new add to a fight and the guard hadnt had time to even tag it. Or unless I tried deliberatly but then that was aggro from the minstrel not the guard.

[Scatha the Worm]

Talking from a very long time spent in instances with a very good guardian equipped with maxed +threat belt, threat stance, etc. etc. etc.

My grouping traits... 3/4=b/h

Deadly Precision
Critical Eye
Swift and True
Resolute Aim
Swift Recovery
Fast Draw
Strong Draw

I will definitely pull aggro given enough time, while in endurance stance, and critted threat book (but then power suffers badly). Anyway, champs get aggro too. I've tried a different setup:

Graceful Draw
Intent Concentration
Swift and True
Strong Draw
Fast Draw
Critical Eye
Deadly Precision

That with a threat book works perfectly, but it's a good hit on DPS (not that bad, but enough to be noticed). And I suspect we end below champs on single target here (while in endurance, obviously). Anyways, this also makes it quite hard to get adds off minstrels (specially ranged), and I've gotten used to a sort of emergency/secondary ranged tanking role, and kiting bosses when it's getting troublesome. For that I need to make sure I'm second (third if there are champs if possible, but on some boss fights champs are busy with adds) on the aggro list, or that I can easily get there.

Anway, we have many tools to manage our aggro, champs are lacking in that department (just ebbing/rising ire and the always present and boring alternative of turning off auto attack and doing nothing for a while). Guardian's aggro need to be tuned just a bit, but not to the point of making it easy.

Back on topic...

I don't see any need to change the traits, they are just fine the way they are, as are also the trait sets. I would only complain about the increased cd on Press Onwards with 4/5 huntsmen.

The uselessness of Fleet Stance is a whole different topic. Anyway, as OMWiener said, none of my regular setups include the new legendaries.

The Trapper of Foes trait set is working as intended, I think. While on that trait setup, we still do very nice damage, but our main role is changed to support CC, it's not single target DPS anymore. The PS root actually comes in very handy on fear/trap resists.

I've tried it, and I kinda like it, but it is very different of the usual play style. Anyways, I've only used it twice while instancing, so not exactly experienced here. The availability of roots is very nice, since bosses are only cceable that way, and there are many trash mobs immune to fear/mezz (16th/DD for example).

My trapper of Foes setup is...

Combat Traps (more CC)
Heart of the Bard (helps damage, HS becames almost part of regular damage skill rotation)
Strong Intimidation (better CC)
Sturdy Traps (better CC)
Deep Concentration (helps power, since I unslot BotR for this trait setup)

Swift Recovery (helps damage, focus availability and power)
Enduring Precision (because I use precision while on trapper path)

I also slot Explosive Arrow and a bow with reduced CD and resistance for distracting shot.

[Conn]

I dont like the moveable camouflage since we are not burglars.

So what? No, we are not Burglars but we are Hunters. Not Archers. Hunters. Masters of the art of stealthily stalking our prey until the perfect opportunity arises to kick the living crap out of them. But we can't do that in this game (traited Elves are the exception) and that's something I thought I'd learned to live with until I found out that Wardens, you know the semi-tank guys running around with the big shields, can move around in stealth for short periods of time. What is that about? Allowing us to run around stealthed indefinitely with our current level of damage dealing abilities would be silly as we would be far too dangerous. But how about a change to the Camoflague skill that allows for short bursts of movement? For example...

Switching on Camo' does what it always has. However, you can move around for periods of say... 10 seconds, with a reduced stealth level. If you are still moving after 10 seconds then stealth is completely broken. If you have stopped moving before the 10 seconds has passed you remain in full stealth but can not move again for a further 20 seconds or stealth is broken. Can not be activated in combat as now. Does not stack with Sylvan Shadows.

It's not such a silly idea to give Hunters stealthy movement as it would fit with the definition of a Hunter. But let's be honest, who cares about realism anyway? Apparently a Burglar can move around in broad daylight without being seen, even in the middle of an open field with no rocks, trees or even tall grass for cover.

[sinomiel]

as for the aggro, we do the instances with a warden in my kin and i never have aggro problems, not even in strength stance. we did fil gashan 3 times last night, i only had to hit beneath notice twice (for the champ´s sake i think, don´t remember though) and switch to endurance in an emergency case at the last boss when the champ was kiting and he needed to hold aggro.

wardens rock i think :)

[Eorthor]

My Idea:

Scrap Fleet Stance,

Add a new stance:

Huntsman Stance:
+10% melee Damage,
-15% ranged damage,
+5% Evade/parry chance

As the legendary skills are all based around these specific skills, instead of buffing it, it'd add to the improved melee idea maybe something like:

Way of the Huntsman:
+250 morale,
+300 armour value,
+360 In-Combat Morale Regeneration,
+5% melee damage,
-5% ranged damage,
+5% evade/parry chance.


So Overall from the 5/5 Huntsman set and using the Huntsman stance, you'd gain the ability to survive in a melee fight and do a reasonable amount of damage to balance this you'd do 20% less ranged damage but with the use of certain Huntsman traits, you're melee skills will be a lot more effective.


My reasoning behind this is linked to Conn's post, We aren't archers, we're hunters, and when you read about them it says we do enough damage in range so that when they get close enough we can finish them off effectively in melee, yet we kite? melee wise we're poor, so why not improve it? i'd much rather sacrifice some ranged DPS for the ability to fight in melee.

[Adathor]

Very interesting read.

Ul's right on the kin guardian. Razzael isn't using the best belt, its good but not great. But she holds agro off our hunters well, and always as done. I love having her along on any run, because I know she keep agro off people. and that includes large numbers of mobs. She herself says she much prefers to tank multiple target stuff than single mobs, but she's good at both. I run most of the kin instances, to my pain. we have some good hunters in kin, well equipped, well traited, and she will keep agro off them, till they do silly things like 2 heartseekers (they seem to love resetting heartseekers with bard arrow). But I will be honest part of reason the kin runs do so well is we been playing together for a long time, and know how each other play. Its always noticable when we bring in people outside, that there is some adjustment, but Raz's tanking isn't one them.

[Silmahad]

Our guardian tank in our kinship now has some better gear, that allowed him to switch out some traits for traits for more threat. Meanwhile it seems working quite well. Threat seems to fit now, although our guardian has the imagination "Turbine did something hidden" :-)