Physics of CMR2 as realistic as NFS: Porsche Unleashed?

[garpon]

After playing Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed, Colin McRae Rally 2.0 :) seems to be a very much forgiving game. To correct oversteer in NFS Porsche, countersteering will cause oversteer in the other direction which usually results in a spin (with my skill-less driving). Correcting oversteer in CMR2, however, requires barely any countersteering, and even so will not cause oversteer in the other direction. Understeering also seems to happen more frequently in NFS Porsche.
I am not sure if CMR2 is more forgiving of sloppy driving because WRC cars have way more grip or better handling (?) than stock production Porsche cars , or that driving on relatively slippery surfaces (such as gravel or snow) lessens the effect of over correcting for oversteer, or that Electronic Arts has deliberately made NFS Porsche overly sensitive to steering inputs and/or made the car models twitchy, or that Codemasters has toned down the bad effects of oversteer-> spin to make the game more ‘arcadey’? Or I am totally wrong and should be quiet :confused: ?
Another thing I noticed was that in Need for Speed: Porsche Unleashed is that the game moves along faster than CMR2, as in when the game speedometer reads 160 km/h, the Porsches really seem to be moving at that speed while the WRC cars seem to be moving at, say 120 km/h. I may very well be totally off on this one, but I am not sure how to explain why the Porsches seem to move faster- maybe because landmarks whiz by faster in NFSPU, or perhaps it is an optical illusion caused by such effects as using a wider-angle lens view :confused: ?
I do not mean to advertise for NFSPU or downplay CMR2, but only to ask these questions that I have had for so long.
:) :D :eek:

Well, no. The physics of CMR 2 are not as realistic as Porsche's. CMR 2 is basically an arcade game. But keep in mind also that Porsches are rear wheel driven, which means they will behave differently. Although the Turbos and Carrera 4s that are 4WD, strangely enough behave exactly the same as the rest. Anyways, CMR 2 is still an arcade game.

[rubinho]

i think the physics of CMR 2 are good enough.
Understeering happens only on long coners like the tracks from nfs. Correcting oversteer in CMR2 requires barely any countersteering and even so will not cause oversteer in the other direction becauce the cars are 4wd it makes a big diffrence. and the surface makes the diffrence too. and did you notice the steering of the cars are the best in the world! if you take a corner focus on your front wheels when you exit a corner the wheels slowly turn straight like a real car. in other games from the moment you relaese the steering button the wheels are inmedietly straight

Over correcting oversteer produces oversteer in the other direction in 4wd cars too, you still have to countersteer, but its easier than in rwd. CMR 2 is fun at first, but after some time its arcade physics become pretty obvious. At least to those who have some real life rally driving experience, or know some things about car behaviour and physics.

Don't forget the importance of your right foot in terms of controlling understeer/oversteer.

In terms of understeer/oversteer, I haven't found this to be unrealistic. The Mini understeers, the Lancia's (RWD) oversteer like mad. For those without pedals, you may be out of luck, but oversteer in CMR2 is definitely controllable with good throttle control.

The control for the AWD cars with certain setups is analogous to driving my Impreza off-road in real life. The Impreza tends to understeer more than the real WRC cars, of course. In this case, left-foot braking is essential.

I think the physics on CMR2 are more realistic. The inablitiy to compensate for oversteer without causing a spin in NFS is somewhat unrealisitic. On the road, the only way to save your car and yourself is to correct your steering, but in NFS :p U this causes ridiculous oversteer in the other direction. I have long thought that this was a flaw in the game. I don't find it realisitic at all! This is just my opinion.

[3mpty]

Oh my god. You call NFS P2000 a realistic game?

You have goto be kidding me! The newer NFS games, ie from 2 up have always been completely arcade style, alike cmr2!

Realistic physics is more like grand prix legends, toca touring car 2, grand touring car ect.

Are you ppl crazy? NFS PU has one of the most realistic physics models I have ever seen. I guess none of you has driven a RWD car with a lot of power sideways. GPL, TOCA2 etc are realistic too, but remember:

1. In TOCA you drive FWD cars
2. In all of these games you drive FINE TUNED RACE CARS not your average everyday Porsche (I know it sounds a bit weird, but that's how it is). Race drivers keep talking about how there is no comparison between different race cars! Imagine between race and road cars!

[3mpty]

You have goto be kidding me tommi. Ahwell when I take up rally Ill be the judge

[garpon]

Hmmm, I wish I knew what it was like to drive a high powered sports car at high speeds on scenic roads like those in NFSPorsche. But all I have tried is a front wheel drive Focus on snowy and icy roads here in the north. That is probably at the opposite end of the scale. But if CMR2 physics were realistic then an average (?) WRC driver's skills doesn't really look that impressive (it is still impressive, of course, but if the cars really handle like in CMR2 then the cars must make up a large part of their skill. And not that I could drive like them- not even close.)
On the other hand, WRC cars rarely spin on TV. But then this could be because much of rally is edited out on the half-hour rally programs that are broadcast here on TV or that rally drivers have so much skill they don't spin or that WRC cars really don't spin or even that CMR2 has realistic physics, I don't know.

[garpon]

While I'm at it, how come I can't heel&toe into first gear from second? :mad: The gear shift lever won't go into first? :( Does this have something to do with double de-clutching or something even when the modern manual transmission is fully synchronized (??) :confused:

You shouldn't heel&toe from 2nd to 1st gear. If you need to go into 1st gear it probably means it's a hairpin. In that case you dip the clutch, select 1st gear, turn using the handbrake and opening the throttle at the same time and then let the clutch out when you are ready to power out of the turn. You don't need to heel&toe because you are not braking when you let the clutch out. If on the other hand you don't want to use the handbrake because you are just driving to go to the market or sth, the only thing I can say is... don't use heel&toe in everyday driving.

I'll back up Tommi here... Trying to learn heel/toe on public streets is a bad idea. If you're not good at it, inevitably you're going to slip at some point, hopefully a place with a bit of room so you don't slam into something or someone when you lay on the gas a bit more than you expected. ;)

garpon -
WRC cars are not any less prone to spinning than any other car - they're being driven by the best drivers in the world, that's why they're not spinning around everywhere. And if they spin, you do see it in the WRC coverage if it's someone who's in the top 6 or so... A spin can cost many manys econds.

I'm with you Idjiit! The other thing to consider is that even if CMR2's physics were completely realistic, many stages in rallying are much narrower than in the game, the stages are much longer and the rallies much longer than in the game and the slightest tap or ill placed rock can damage your steering or car enough to put you out of a rally. Also, in real WRC cars stalling is a real problem if you don't know what you're doing!

I'm not sure if NFS PU is realistic indeed...
I think, that CMR2 (even if a bit less realistic) is better than NFS, as f.ex. slides were done excelent for me.

mitchell

[garpon]

Thanks for the advice :p .
And I guess you are right about CMR2 realism. I wouldn't know anyhow and probably will never know how real WRC rallying compares with CMR2 or how real Porsche driving compares with NFSPU :( .
Just a question- do you use heel&toe in everyday driving? Not for performance but just so that you are in the best gear for a corner and not too low a gear :confused: ?

You don't need to use h&t in everyday driving. Since you have no time pressure, you can balance the downshift with the clutch. The only way to make sure that you are in the right gear though is to not downshift say, 2 gears at once. Just downshift one gear at a time.

But I think the most realistic car behaviour is in Rally Masters.

I heel/toe in daily driving sometimes. tommi_fan is right, it's kind of pointless since the speeds don't make it genuinely useful and there aren't many opportunities where it's necessary, but I like challenging myself. Luckily my car is set up pretty well for it.

I definitely rev-match on downshifts however. Again, it's not necessary since my gearbox has synchronizers, but it's more pleasant for passengers since the car's weight doesn't shift at all - so you don't even notice I changed gears.

Ah, you're right, I keep practicing h&t in everyday driving anyway. The downshifts are indeed much smoother. What car do you drive? I drive a VW Polo (1000cc :( don't know how much hp or torque, I imagine around 50 and 7-8 respectively). Today I was driving on gravel and I was braking reeally hard from 4th for a hairpin, and suddenly, before I was ready to downshift, the gear lever with a will of it's own hopped out of 4th gear!! And I wasn't even pressing the clutch! I was braking really really hard, but I can't imagine any amount of braking capable of causing the gear to come out. :confused: :confused:

Tommi -
I drive a US-Spec Impreza WRX Wagon (around 230 hp). I've never had it pop out of gear like that, needless to say. How slow were you going when the gear popped out? If I was slowing for a hairpin, I definitely wouldn't be in 4th... If your revs are really low and you're in 4th, I would imagine the gearbox wouldn't like it...

I'm sorry, I didn't describe it quite accurately. I was in fourth and was just starting to brake for the hairpin. As I reached over to shift down, the lever just popped out of its place (I didn't touch it). And now I remembered this other time when I wanted to downshift from 4th, I grabbed the lever, and just when I was ready to press the clutch, the lever went into neutral again. When I say 'grabbed' of course, I don't mean I actually grabbed it, I merely had my hand on it. Maybe my gearbox has a problem.

BTW, why did you buy the Wagon?

Yeah, sounds like the gates on your gearbox may be worn.

I bought the wagon because I'm a musician, a home owner, and a dog lover. There's just much more utility. I've always had a wagon of some sort. My last car was a Forester which was great, but I've dreamt of a WRX for a long time. They haven't offered the Turbo Impreza's here until last spring, so I jumped on it pretty quick and traded my Forester.

I'm planning on getting a Prodrive STI sedan if and when it comes out in America (hopefully around spring of 2003). The STI will be my tarmac-spec car, and the wagon will be the gravel-spec car. :)

Sounds like your financials are in a good state! :D

The STI kicks ass, if it comes out there you should definately buy it!

The weird thing about the "4th gear problem" is that it happened very naturally, as if I pressed the clutch and shifted to neutral. I mean that there wasn't that hair-raising cog sound that (bad) clutchless shifting makes, nor did the car or engine behave weird.

[Biberle]

hi tommi-fan,

although i think you know a lot of cars an their behaviour, i have to disagree with you. Anyway, i doubt that the word "realistic" makes sense at all comparing games to real life, even the most "realistic" games like N4 and GPL miss the most important part, which in germany is called "popometer" (Ass-O-Meter in English :) ))

I think oversteer and the correction of oversteer aren´t that big of a problem for rally cars and their drivers. when i went with mika sohlberg and his Ford focus wrc, it really felt that IT IS that easy to correct oversteer as it feels in Colin 2. When i read your lines correctly, aou have sideways-driving-experience on your own. Then you should know, that with some level of experience and practising, even for regular drivers it isn´t that difficult to correct oversteer.

I know, Porsche Cars (at least up to the 993) aren´t THAT easy to control, as most of the other cars. Nevertheless i think the physics in NfS5 are exaggerated. When you hardly have the chance to get an oversteering porsche back in line - although it´s juat a videogame -, than the physics aren´t neither good nor realistic.

I once went to a presentation of Colin 1 (i´m working in the videogames journalism business), and a guy named harald demuth was with us. He was two times german rallye champion back in 82 and 84 (with an audi quattro). Although he didn´t have any videogames experience he was very quick in Colin after a few minutes (of course he played with wheel and pedals) an was delighted of the game, because, as he said "he could use a lot of his rela driving techniques". Maybe the physics in Colin 1 aren´t the most realistic ever, but they for sure are working. and that´s IMHO the most important thing.

You maybe right, the physics of Porsche might have been a bit exaggerated, although after some (serious) practice I could drive it sideways and keep control (and I was driving with the keyboard!). As for CMR, yes, oversteer is indeed easy to correct once you have the experience needed, but the correction needed differs from what you need to do in CMR. Usually after you countersteer, as you approach the exit of the corner 4WD (and FWD of course) cars tend to understeer and you have to steer in the direction of the corner again to come out smoothly. Something that has beeen modelled very accurately in Michelin's Rally Masters, but not so well in both CMR games. I will agree though that physics in CMR are fun and give you a realistic feel, even though you know it's not 100% realistic. And that is indeed what matters. I was just playing CMR2 yesterday after a long time. I had forgotten how much fun this game is! But I know every stage by heart and I get a bit bored with it because of that.

[Biberle]

totally agree with that posting :)

Greetz,
Michael

I've been playing Porsche Unleashed recently, so I finally have something to add. First off, when you're comparing the two games keep in mind that the speeds you're driving at in PU are much higher, the cars are much different, so it's a completely different driving style. In PU style racing, you have to be very very smooth since making a steering or throttle error at 180mph, is much different than at 80mph.

PU is a tough game - but that type of driving is tough! I find the physics to be pretty good, especially if you pay attention to how utterly different the handling of the different cars are. The difference between driving the GT2 and the Boxster is massive. Driving with the manual becomes critical (it's still possible to drive very effectively in CMR2 with an auto box), every movement must be much smoother - steering, braking, throttle.

Overall, PU bores the sh|t out of me - but it's a beautiful game, and driving model seems to be a step above CMR2, but it's hard to gauge since the driving styles are so different. But just watch the replays and notice the car movements - how they are really based on a 4-point phsyics model, how the suspension seems to be more "real".

I still like CMR2 more, but I would like to see improvement in the driving model.

Very well said Idjiit, I agree completely!

[Biberle]

Right, good Posting.

I find it funny, that despite its good physics, PU feels completely like an arcade game to me. And you´re also right on colin - the driving model isn´t that complex and may be a bit arcadish, but nevertheless i always feel like playing a good rallye *simulation*.

[garpon]

I have just played a game called "Ferrari F355 Challenge Passione Rosa" for Sega Dreamcast. Has anyone else played this game? It seems that it is very realistic and even more realistic than NFS Porsche. Well, at least I think it is more realistic. I hope I will one day be able to find out which game has the most realistic physics model by driving the real cars. Sigh. :(

[garpon]

Since Colin McRae Rally 3 will come out for the XBOX, can you hook up the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback Wheel USB onto the XBOX?

[Bonzai Gopher]

Hiya,

I don't think you can use the existing MS-FF wheel with the XBox as it is now - the connectors on the XBox are not standard USB... maybe they'll make an adaptor or something, but I haven't heard anything like that yet... anyone else?

Cheers,

Bonzai Gopher

[garpon]

Hello,
I sure hope they do.