Driving technique's

[niklas-tgs]

I was reading the "Leftfot braking"-tread and saw thedode's post. He said that he would like to hear other suggestions about driving techinques.

So here is what I would like to see in CMR3:
* Pendulum turn. You know when the drivers before a turn getting into a pendulum. Turns from side to side and then turns sharp, getting power from the pendulum. I have heard that it's found in Rally Trophy.

* Hairpin turn. In CMR2, you could take the hairpin very easy without using the handbrake.
So in CMR3 I would like to see more effect by pulling the handbrake.

* Turbo presure. To get grip fast and pull away from the turn, you must have a high rew on the engine, to keep up the turbo.
So when having a low rew you should feel the car have less acceleration.

* Return swing. I don't know really what is causing the return swing. I found it first in Driver for PSX, when I was losting grip and balance and trying to keep the car straight.
Somebody follow up this.


And also about the note system. USe the whole for CMR3. With the plus and minus. Everything.

Well you can actually perform a flick (pendulum) in CMR 2. You can also take hairpins without a handbrake pretty efectively in real life too. Lastly, turbo revs are dependent on how much the throttle is open, not on the engine's revs. Besides, with the huge amounts of torque rally cars have, you can accelerate very well from very low revs too. As for the notes, I think what they lack is the good timing. In CMR 2 you have to go slower, because by the time Nicky is done speaking, you have already stopped rolling.

Of course, I am in no way implying that CMR 2's physics and car handling are perfect. They be very much improved, but they are still quite realistic up to a point.

The two things that mostly annoy me with car handling are:

1. The way steering inputs are interpreted. Here you turn in, turn opposite lock, and keep going like that until you come out of the turn. And all of this in full throttle. In reality, as you know, you have to play with the wheel and throttle some times to come out smoothly.

2. The way cars react to jumps. No matter how you go over a jump, its not possible to lose control. Also, cars always seem to go in the air level, while they shoul land front, or rear, or even only the left or right wheels first, depending on your controls before the jump. Finally, when you land, cars just... land and stay on the ground, no rebound or sth. Jumps in Rally Masters should be taken as an example.

Oh... I will play CMR 3 on my PC. And I also want it to be a sim!

Oh, and a good crashing model, hitting the back end in a tree during a fast bend, should make you spin some times for example.

Oops, what did I say? Turbo revs are dependent on engine revs too, but in road cars once you lift off, the turbo revs drop. This, however, does not apply to rally cars.

I would also like a better automatic transmission system. In CMR 2 if you lifted off or braked in mid-air, or if the wheels locked up, the gearbox would downshift into even 1st gear at some points!! Imagine that happening at 160 kmh! I know that not many ppl use auto gearboxes, but with a keyboard, you sometimes dont have a choice (with my control setup, I have to let go of the brakes to downshift - or use the Alt key to downshift and crash the game :D ). And if you downshift prematurely, you should also be prone to lose control.

Tommi I agree with everything you have said. Honestly I've never tried the pendulum turns in cmr2 (I was going to then my wheel broke :( ) but my only problem with making you use the handbrake for hairpins is that where do you map the handbrake to for those of us with wheels and pedals? Many people only have paddles for shifting (Mircrosft's Sidewinders, Logitech Wingman's and Thrustmaster base Ferrari model) so where are they going to map it to, a button? Let me just tell you right now that a button would be HORRIBLE as a handbrake!

The jumps is a huge issue with me. Especially since if you crank the wheels when you land you can roll the car or break a wheel off in real life, but of course that never happens in cmr2. What is good is that jump-braking (braking as you go over a jump) works in cmr2 unlike some games. This is realistic, and in real life allows for added grip on landing!

[INJURED MOOSE.SWE]

You want pendulum turns & good hairpin techniques,
bouncy jumps, well just visit us on
www.HOTLAPS.DE (http://www.HOTLAPS.DE) CMR2

The best site to compete on when you havnt got time to play network or online!

The only way to realize just how good cmr2
is, is if you use a good analog wheel & peds, with a bumper view.
Using a keyboard or joypad gives most people the
wrong impression.

i don't know how we got onto the subject of turbo's but i think the bad old day's of turbo lag with factory cars of the mid eighties etc are long behind us so all this talk of turbo revs etc does'nt really apply given these days we have ball bearing turbochargers ,A/R ratio's on turbine housings matched to the engines to give good performance down low or run twin turbo set ups sequentially to give the best of both worlds and factory blow-off valves to relieve any boost pressure when the butterfly is shut
well thats road cars and as we all know rally teams utilize hybrid turbo's and have anti-lag set up's so this is definitely not a problem here

Well turbo-lag is still present, it just doesnt reach the astronomical times of 4-5 seconds that gr. B cars had, like the Quattro S1. And of course anti-lag systems keep the turbos' revs up by sending fuel into the engine, which isnt burnt and which then ignites in the exhaust port, sending flames out. But that doesnt apply when starting moving from a halt, it only applies when you lift-off and then open the throttle again, and of course for short amounts of time. You can't lift-off, wait 10 secs, go full throttle and expect the turbo to be in full revs for example.

[niklas-tgs]

I have a handbrake-lever on my wheel.
I have a Gamers Gear wheel. A very good wheel.
But if it have had 3 axels. So I could get left foot braking, but maybe Codemasters can fix that. So us with 2 axelwheels can leftfoot brake.

Cm2 supports three axis so it must be your wheel m8 in controller set up.
you checked on game controlers to see if it can be done from your wheel?

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Cartman ]</p>

[niklas-tgs]

2 axis= steeringwheel and accelerate/brake
3 axis= steringwheel and accelerate and brake!

I'd love for a company to have a usb add-on handbrake, that would really be great!

tommi in what situation on a WRC car does turbo lag seem evident too u ?????
if u understand what "lag" is i dont think u could site a scenario in normal race conditions .
with the advent of ball bearing turbochargers the cars should be showing some kind of boost situation when the engines are bouncing off the rev limiters on the start line
im sorry but i can't believe in this day and age multi million dollar works teams are struggling or more to the point accepting "lag" problems when rally's are won or lost by seconds
lag too me is the pain in the backside time it takes the engines manifold pressure to change from a negative figure to a positive when the throttle is opened fully ,i dont know what meaning it has in your mind

I'm not sure what the meaning of your post is. Of course I know what turbo-lag is, but I don't think it's difficult for anyone to understand that turbo-lag (even if it's only for 1 million of a second) can only be fully eradicated by using supercharging. ALSs work only during lift-offs as I said, but of course it's obvious that during a race you rarely (if ever) encounter turbo-lag. That's because the car is always moving, and lift-offs last for very brief moments. And you don't have to show us that you know all about ball bearing turbos and A/R ratios, like you are Ralliart's chief mechanic or sth.

Oh, and turbo-lag's definition is the time taken after the opening of the throttle until the turbo's revs build up. That's a definition, it's not the meaning it has in my mind or yours.

Tommi what makes the "turbo revs " (as u like to put it )increase ??????
yep thats right exhaust pressure ,the more air and fuel you give the motor the faster the turbine wheel is going to be spun and then in turn compress the air charge and thats when you go into a boost situation
without boost your going no where fast in a turbo car so i think my definition of turbo lag is ok

Maybe you're right (although I've never heard anyone referring to turbo-lag as "the time it takes for the manifold pressure to change from a negative figure to a positive", everybody uses the definition I gave, but I guess you know better), maybe you are wrong, that's not the point. The point is that turbo-lag, at least when accelrating from a halt and from low revs will always be there. You obviously know that it takes some (minuscule) time for the exhust fumes to reach the turbo and start spinning it until it reaches the optimum revs (as I like to put it? no, turbos actually have optimum revs, and rev limits).

Tommi i realise im splitting hairs with you on this lag topic ,neither of us are wrong as such ,my point of view im trying to get across is that the turbo is only part of a big system and the efficiency of this system has a direct impact on lag ,thats why im hesitant to relate turbo rpm too lag and instead relate it too manifold pressure because i know we dont live in a perfect world and just because you have max. turbo rpm doesnt necessarily mean you have boost
the reason why i mentioned ballbearing turbos,A/R ratios etc was not too big note myself but to illustrate that these are all factors in reducing lag to a negligible amount in factory road cars of today compared too say the mid eighties .
the first turbo car i ever drove was my brothers 85' (i think) Nissan Exa ,i remember him telling me to be ready for it too come on boost ,now that had lag ,i think from memory i had enough time from when i planted my foot till boost came on to think too myself he is a tosser ,but when it did come on i got a surprise ,but then again it was almost a case of all or nothing
im a bit confused with your last line ,are you saying they do or don't have max. and optimum rpm's ??????

I guess you're right, neither of us is wrong, and this discussion is pretty much meaningless. As for road car turbos, I remember my father telling me his car (a '00 Audi A4 T Quattro) doesn't have turbo lag, and my first thoughts when I drove it. Starting in first gear with low revs, I put my foot down and at first I was like "that's all??" and a moment later I was buried in my seat! The car is not the standard version, to avoid any confusion, it has been tuned by Powerteam.
So there you have it! Very obvious turbo-lag (about half a second, maybe more) in a car that came out 1,5 year ago.

As for the last line, I'm saying they do have optimum and max rpms.

[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: tommi_fan ]</p>

tommi_fan -
That's not what I would consider turbo lag. I think it's more defined as the time it takes from when the turbo starts spinning up (from it's idle speed), to maximum speed/compression.

So, if you're trying to start the car in first with only 1,500 RPM, the Turbo isn't even trying to spin up yet.... But once you're up to 3,000 RPM, then it should be spinning up... The time it takes from there, to achieve full HP/Torque is my definition of turbo lag.

So, your experience with Turbo lag sounds more like a lack of experience in driving Turbo cars. I don't mean that as an insult in any way - you just cannot drive a Turbo car the same way as a NA car.

Just my opinion. :)

That's what I mean by turbo lag too, I'm sorry if it is unclear through what I've said. I have indeed little experience with turbocharged cars, but played a bit around when I drove the car, and found that it was not rpm related, turbo lag existed.

Okay, cool. It just sounded like you were talking about what a lot of people experience with Turbo cars (read: me!) when they first start driving them... They start out with the revs too low, give full throttle and don't feel anything, then... WHAM, 60 miles an hour.

PS: Go tommi go!! (Loeb's engine will blow, too bad!)

i think the main reason lag or even turbo's to a point have had such a bad name is of all the backyard mechanics that find a turbo sitting around somewhere and decide to plonk it on an engine and because its not matched to the requirements they want they experience pain and next thing you hear are turbo's are crap etc
i had a turbo 13B putting out 320 b.h.p ,i ran a 1.15 A/R turbine housing ,now this was probably just a tad large for the street but like Idjiit said in his post if you know how to drive a turbo car lag does'nt really come into it ,just keeping it straight on the road was the only problem