Left Foot Braking...

A discussion was started in the old forum, thought we could continue it here, since IMHO it's an important technique...

garpon originally posted:

[quote]
Does left foot braking work in CMR2? Will it be supported in CMR3?
<hr></blockquote>

empty (are you 3mpty here?) responded:
[quote]
Left footed branking depands on your controller config. Some wheel support seperate pedals, others dont. Even on that I think thats a bad technique.
<hr></blockquote>

Once again, empty is half right. ;)

If you've got a pedal set that has the brake and accelerator control on one axis, you can't do left-foot braking. You're not really "braking" until the controller swings back to the negative axis. You can witness this in the controller calibration screen. Put your foot down on the accelerator, then apply brake, you'll see that it just results in less acceleration, not braking.

This really really sucks - and my Sidewinder FF setup is configured like this... I'm verging on buying a dedicated USB pedal setup because of it (no complaints with the wheel though). Left-foot braking is crucial for some rally driving techniques, although since I can't do it with my setup I can't comment on how well the technique transfers from real life to CMR2.

The reason that it's important that all the cars in CMR2 use Turbo engines, so (in theory) you have to keep the revs up to drive them effectively.

Same applies to heel/toe downshifting, etc. The CMR physics model doesn't appear to be realistically sensitive to brake/downshift dive, so it's not as big an issue as in real life driving, but hopefully that will improve for CMR3.

Your options are to use the handbrake, or have a brake button on your controller, or get a new pedal setup.

With my MadCatz 2 on Playstation it doesn´t work. When you have gas and brakes on at the same time, it´s just like letting the throtte go, like lifting off. And there is no way of changing this on Playstation with seperate axis and stuff like on PC:s, is there?

But you don´t really need to left-foot brake in WRC-cars, do you ;) ?

[Egz]

I tested my Logitech GT Force with my PS2 on GT3, and its able to. Going into a replay and turning on the pedal pressure icons, I can see both gas and brake being applied when I press down on both.

I really hope this wheel is fully supported. &lt;nudge, nudge, wink, wink&gt;

It's really just a controller issue, as far as I know. If you don't have independent axises for brake and throttle with your pedals, you're out of luck. There's nothing that Codemasters can do about this, unfortunately.

Calle -
I'm going to assume you're being facetious... If you've ever seen footage of the footwork WRC drivers have to pull off, you'll know that left foot braking is really common, and critical.

[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Idjiit ]</p>

Idjiit, it seems you are only half right too. :p

The reason rally drivers use lfb, is not to keep the revs up because they use turbos. The turbos' ALS (anti-lag system) makes sure that the turbos' revs are kept up after you lift off, so as to eliminate turbo-lag. The reason for lfb is that braking while keeping the throttle open can fully or partially lock the rear wheels, causing oversteer obviously. You'll understand now why this technique is essential in rallying but not so widely spread in f1 or other types of car racing. And you'll also understand that it's highly unlikely that this works correctly in CMR2, although I haven't tried it. I'm still driving with the keyboard. :D :D :( :confused:

BTW which would be the best wheel now? I'm looking for one with a serial type shifter (with a joystick, not the pads behind the wheel) and a handbrake if possible.

[RallyBasher]

I know that on the original CMR, when I first started playing I used to accelerate and brake separately, until a mate totally trashed me in a head-to-head race. After studying his technique and putting it to use myself I was amazed how much more speed and control I gained.

I remember playing the game at a club meeting once, using a wheel and pedals, and this worked great for left foot braking. The feeling was so realistic.

When CMR2 was released I tried to play it in exactly the same way, but found to my horror that the left foot braking method didn't work. I had to learn to drive doing both separately again, but eventually got used to it.

I don't know whether I could stand having to start learning all over again, but I'm thinking of getting myself a wheel anyway, so maybe it won't be so bad.

[MowerMan]

I have a Logitech Formula Force GP and I like it a lot. It allows the pedaly to be reported as one axis, or seperate axes. The shifters are on the wheel (which is what I prefer).

I would like the MOMO version...

http://logitech.com/cf/products/productoverview.cfm/2943

tommi_fan -
I stand corrected! I checked out drivingtechnique.co.uk, and actually found more info in the FWD techniques section, check it out...

http://www.drivingtechniques.co.uk/ShowPage.asp?Activemenu=27&PageID=24

As for good wheel/shifter setups, check out Act Labs - they get pretty consistently good reviews for their wheel/shifter combo. They've got a pedal set with a clutch even.

http://www.act-labs.com/

Ball Racing Development is coming out with a new set of pedals which is supposed to rule, but I don't think they do FF wheels currently. The stuff is pretty pricey.

Well I have already read almost everything that is written in www.drivingtechniques.co.uk (http://www.drivingtechniques.co.uk) but thanks anyways!

As for act labs, i cant think which game the clutch could be used in, since all racing cars only use a clutch to start up the enigne and start moving, and the shifter i want would be a serial one, move it towards you and it changes a gear up, and vice versa. I had seen one on a Ferrari 360 (I think) wheel but I dont remember who made it. Besides I didnt like the rest of the wheel, but the shifter was really good.

[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: tommi_fan ]</p>

[Egz]

I used to have a game called Viper Racing, made by Sierra I think, on my computer, and you had an option for a clutch, for shifting. The only one I know of.

That game had an interesting damage model...

thrustmaster make a good wheel both pedals seperate seperate gear lever and on the wheel throttle brake or paddle gear shift its so ace!!!! oh and its force feed

http://www.thrustmaster.co.uk/product/detail/pc/wheel/ff_gtracing.asp

[MowerMan]

Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed (best physics model I've seen so far), and NASCAR: Heat both allow you to use a clutch. I never do, as it was stated, you don't really need to use a clutch once a car rolling (no-clutch shifed all the time in my VW GTI).

tommi_fan -
Why do you want a stick to shift up/down? Most of the WRC cars are using paddle-type shifters now anyway (although they're not left-down right-up, like most wheels). I think the exception being Ford, right? I would suspect it's just a matter of time before they switch as well.

Actually only Peugeot and Subaru are using paddle type shifters. And not all of Peugeot's cars, Panizzi used the joystick this year. Mitsubishi, Skoda, Ford, Huyndai are using a joystick. Also most other cars, kit cars, old Corollas, Cordobas etc use joysticks too. Oh, the Xsaras use paddles also. But I think it is left-down, right-up. Isn't it?

[3mpty]

Heres a tip, u want to left foot brake geta good wheel. But I'm still against it. :)

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your comments on this. We intend to support the GT Force wheel for the PS2.

And you will be able to use both accelerate and brake at the same time (for the left foot brakers out there).

Let me know if there are any other 'techniques' your keen to see in CMR3.

cheers.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: thedode ]</p>

[Egz]

Woohoo! Lets just hope GT3 doesn't destroy my wheel before CMR3 comes out.

[3mpty]

hehe yeah

tommi_fan -
Mitsubishi is using paddle-shifters now as well. They've got a "ring" around the wheel, not "paddles" per se. I noticed that it looks like Delecour isn't using it in his tests so far, but I could have sworn I saw Tommi using it last year in some of the rallies...? I suppose it's a personal taste thing. It's a totally different technology though, isn't it? The paddles are always semi-automatic, while that "knobs" you see people using are usually just sequential gearboxes (ie, you'll need a clucth in first, but all other gears are clutchless)?

As for left-down, right-up... For most I believe it's a push/pull thing, not a side of the wheel thing... Makes sense with Rally drivers style vs. F1. So, you push or pull the ring/paddle to shift. That way you can still shift even if your hands are not in the usual position. Not sure which way does what for everyone...

[3mpty]

Paddles are becoming very popular on all rally cars. I think its a great idea. DOnt have to leave the wheel to change gear no more. More safe for real rallies.

PS, paddles are sequential and clutches in these gearboxes are often controlled with hydrolics (sorry my spelling is terrible) They are semi automatic. Thats what a semi is. A sequential gearbox.

Ususally the flappers and stick would be the same, just the flappers are a better location as the driver does not have to leave the wheel.

"Semi-automatic" does not refer to hydraulically controlled gear boxes. It just means that the car makes the clutch movements for you. Automatic means that the car controls the the clutch as well as the gearing.

Sequential refers to the layout of the cogs in the gearbox - they occur in sequence, hence "sequential". So a driver can just go "up" or "down" in the gears, instead of having to concentrate on getting the gear in the right "slot", like on a normal car. But usually, sequential boxes are referring to transmissions that are still controlled mechanically.

Since most pro sequential boxes use straight-cut gears with no synchronizers, they don't even use a clutch at this point, they just pop it in gear.

Now, in terms of the WRC Focus, it may very well use a semi-auto on top of a sequential box, but everything I've heard indicates otherwise.

[3mpty]

Your missing the point. Most rally cars with sequencial gearboxes have automatic clutches. In fact I think all of them do. On top of that I dont think I know a sequencial car with a manual clutch.

And I said or what I ment to say is on most sequenials, the clutch is hydrolically control on gear changes.

[3mpty]

ahwell then focus are rat trash..

you got subarus, mitsubishi, peugot, I think even seat did before they pulled out.

Where does this leave focus.

Doh, 3mpty was responding to a post I deleted. ;) Sorry, man...

I'm not trying to criticize Ford at all. I'm just say that sequential gearboxes != semi-automatic. Supposedly the Ford boxes are sequential with the "option" for being hydraulically assisted. I know for a fact that the Focus' have manual clutches in them. Whether they use them or not is another question. ;)

[3mpty]

ok fair enough

Actually guys, there is no gr. A rally car with a sequential transmission which uses a non-automatic clutch, all gr. A rally cars use the clutch only for igniting the engine, and to start moving, not for gear changing. This includes the Focus (and even older cars, like Corollas and Cordobas as I have said before).

Tommi and Mitsubishi in no way used wheel paddles, I saw all the rallies on TV and you can see clearly Tommi and Freddy using the joystick between the driver's co-driver's seat. I also noticed, that it is indeed right - up, left - down for the paddles. However if you push the right (or left) paddle instead of pulling it, the gearbox shifts down (or up). Some drivers use only the right paddle.

Peugeot used the ring behind the wheel, which is essentially two paddles forming a bigger one. Subaru used two paddles that did not turn with the wheel, but where stable on either side, and I think that so did Citroen.

[3mpty]

When did we say (or maybe I did) they dont have clutches? We simply stated in gear changing they are hydrolically controlled!

Thus being an automatic cluctch. Do you understand or do you wish to continue to read every 3rd line?

[ January 12, 2002: Message edited by: 3mpty ]</p>

I think you are the one reading every third line. I was just trying to correct Idjiit saying that the Focus WRC had a manual clutch. And the fact that the clutch is hydraulic doesn't mean it's automatic. My dad's car has a hydraulic clutch too, but it has a manual mechanical gearbox. That means non-serial with a manual clutch.

[INJURED MOOSE.SWE]

The best wheel on the market as far as im cocerned
is the Thrustmaster Modena pro 360!

Left foot braking is obselete with a wrc on cmr2
but essential with the p205 turbo on tarmac if
you want massiv times!

Come & visit us on www.HOTLAPS.DE (http://www.HOTLAPS.DE) if you think
you are up to a little tough competition.

We would appreciate some new fast players.
But be prepaired to lose youre pants if you
thought you were good!! :)
MOOSE.

[garpon]

Hello,
I have a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback Wheel USB. Will this wheel and pedal set support left foot braking in Colin McRae Rally 3?

garpon -
It does in CMR2, so I would be surprised if it didn't in CMR3.

You have to create a configuration for CMR2 to use all three axis - by default it runs as 2 (which I just found out).

[garpon]

Idjiit,

I do? Ok thanks. I have another question, in real life heel and toeing downshifts, do you just blip the throttle for one second and then shift from neutral to the lower gear or do you press the throttle with the outer edge of your right foot and shift from neutral into the lower gear while still keeping the throttle depressed?

You don't go from neutral into the lower gear, you select the lower gear but keep the clutch dipped. Then you press the throttle with your right foot's heel and let the clutch out (while still keeping the throttle depressed). This should be done in about a tenth of a second.

I don't know if this is what you think, but in case you have misunderstood, heel&toe is not used to downshift without the clutch, it's used so as not to unsettle the balance of the car during heavy braking and downshifting. When you start braking the engine's revs will obviously drop. If you downshift a gear and let the clutch straight out, the car will suddenly be braking twice as hard as before because of the engine braking (assuming the gear you will downshift to will have hgh revs). This can be pretty unsettling, and if you are really close to the limit, you are prone to lose control. Of course you could just balance the clutch until the engine's revs match the wheels' speed, but you will gain much time (and save your clutch and differential(s)) if you just press the gas (not all the way, approx to the middle, you must play a bit to find it) while you let the clutch out. If you position your foot (and your seat) correctly though, you will be able to be at full brakes and full throttle simultaenously. Hope this helped.

Forgot to say that once the clutch is out, you let go of the gas

[garpon]

tommi_fan,

Thanks for your help. You said that once the clutch is out, you let go of the gas. You also said that the entire heel&toe process should occur in about a tenth of a second (I think you said this in the opening lines of your message?). This means that the pressing of the throttle during heel&toe occurs for less than one tenth of a second and can be taken as 'blipping' the throttle quickly? Ok, I think I got it now- at least on paper- as before I was confused as to how to keep the car wheels from dragging the engine up to speed of the lower gear's rpm's and applying large torque to the engine mounts. I kept thinking that after the heel&toe and throttle blip you had to keep depressing the throttle. What was I thinking? Oh well, thanks.

Yes, it can be taken as blipping the throttle. Glad I could help

garpon -
After you blip the throttle to rev match, and get the clutch out - yes, you do need to keep your foot on the throttle at the correct point, to avoid engine braking... The "blip" is to get the revs up quickly. If you don't stay on the throttle, you're kind of defeating the purposes of heel/toe, since the balance of the car will be thrown off.

Needless to say, this takes a lot of practice with a bit of "the Force" thrown in for good measure. ;)

If you want to avoid engine braking you shouldn't downshift.

Eh? If you downshift and get promptly on the throttle, how would that translate into engine braking?

It wouldn't, that's my point. Heel & toe is used to aid you during downshifting so that you don't lose control (as I did once before I started using it). Down shifting on the other hand, is used to take advantage of engine braking for whatever reason. Maybe you are in a panic situation (truck popped up in front of you), maybe during a race you (obviously) want to brake later to gain time. So while letting the clutch out, you open the throttle to quickly get the revs up, so as to avoid the cars' 'hickups'. After that the throttle is released so that engine braking is taken advantage of. You don't have to take my word for it, you can watch (if you can find them these days) old rally videos with cameras at the feet of the drivers'. I have one on my pc with Rohrl at Pike's Peak in a Quattro S1 I can send you.

As for Monte, Tommi will kick ass. Besides, the only reason Loeb is first is that Tommi spinned out and lost about half a minute. Did anybody hear if Loix is ok?

tommi -
Not sure if we're disagreeing here... Downshifting isn't always done to take advantage of engine braking, it's done (especially in rally) to maximize the power band; the need to downshift combined with the need to keep the car balanced is why you heel-toe...??

Loeb won because he's an excellent driver, and because Tommi didn't push after the penalty in service. They basically detuned the engine after it happened, since everyone was very confident that the FIA directors will either re-impose the penalty, or disqualify him from the rally altogether.

Were it otherwise... I'm not totally convinced that Makinen would have caught Loeb, he's really really fast and the Citroen is (arguably) a better tarmac car. The relatively drive conditions worked in Loeb's favor.

Hopefully Subaru will snatch him up, they still need a tarmac specialist...

I think we're saying about the same thing. Anyway, I don't think the thought of Makinen not pushing and driving cautiously is rather realistic. Tommi is always pushing, even if he is 10 minutes ahead. Loeb of course is a tarmac specialist and the Xsara a tarmac car, so Loeb had obviously the advantage. As for the penalty I heard that it will take the FIA a couple of weeks to decide, until then, Loeb is the winner. BTW, Loix broke his ankle.

tommi_fan -
In this case, Tommi definitely, absolutely, stopped pushing. He said so in interviews. There was no need to keep pushing. He said he stopped pushing and that the Subaru engineers tuned the engine back to "Safe" levels, since retiring due to mechanical failure or an off due to risky driving was needless.

But with that said - OMFG, he's such a fantastic driver, and I'm so incredibly happy with his performance. He's won the last three Monte's, so I suppose it shouldn't be too much of a surprise he did well - but the Impreza drives much different than the Lancer because of the differential design. THe fact that he's adapted so quickly, and so successfully is a testament to how great of a driver he is.

I predict this is going to be Subaru's best year. Petter is coming into is own, and Makinen is a God. The 555 sponsership will add a great boost of funding, so let's keep our fingers crossed that they can get a tarmac specialist to seal the deal.

[3mpty]

Hey guys I met a dude in rallying. he suggest left foot braking is good, however not for your reasons. He says "Left foot braking save foot cross over time" or the time it takes you to move the foot over the pedal. None of this clutch burning, gas and brake *****.

He goes on that it may only be a split second, but that add up.

So technically, anyone can left foot brake. Just let go of the gas.

That's another reason... Trust me, McRae isn't left-foot braking just to save time. ;)

I guess all pro race drivers use lfb for the wrong reasons then. Saving time is crucial too but its not the main reason. You can easily watch from cameras by their feet that the throttle is open when they brake.

Idjiit, although Tommi is my fave driver of all time, I didnt expect him to adapt to the Impreza that fast! He was way ahead of all the others, except Loeb of course. But then again he is a tarmac specialist as I said. Petter was really fast too.

I just hope Tommi will win his 24th victory (and his 25th, 26th, 27th, ...) and his 5th title, so to undoubtedly be the best ever. Although he already is for me and some others.

[ January 21, 2002: Message edited by: tommi_fan ]</p>

[garpon]

tommi_fan,

I was wondering about that Rohrl at Pike's Peak/Quattro S1 video- just wondering- how many megabytes is that video?

It's 20 MBs. But I don't remember where I downloaded it from, I'll have to send it to you if you want it.

Found it! Click here (http://www.roehrl-walter.de/videos/pikes.mpg) to d/l it

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: tommi_fan ]</p>

I think it's different with the top rally drivers, their cars are very different to street cars (obviously). I'm new to this discussion but very interested. Heel & Toe downshifting is something I have to try, but will have to wait 'til I have my own car... dad wouldn't be too impressed if I did it with him in the car :D
I'd be interested to know what technique the top rally drivers would use on normal cars as opposed to WRC's. They Left Foot Brake in the WRC's 'cos otherwise their left foot would be wasted. They don't use the clutch at all for shifting 'cos their gearboxes are bulletproof. That's why you see them dancing on the pedals during braking.

With H&T Downshifting, can you suggest the best way to start? How did you start doing it? Which is the best way to get used to matching the revs?
How also do you shift up without using a clutch?
Cheers,
Ciao,

-Vivski-

I'm a big Subaru fan but fast becoming a Peugeot fan as well. Burns is taking a while to get used to the Peugeot, Makinen slipped straight into that Impreza, I think it's a tribute to Subaru for being so easy to get used to.

Vivski -
Well, part of Burns' problem is that he's sharing top spot at Peugot with Gronholm. And then with the Monte, their focus was Panizzi since he's their tarmac guy. Burns has already complained that Peugot won't setup the car to his liking - he basically has to take everyone else's settings. Also, I suspect that he was under orders from Peugot to take it easy and get used to the car, use it as more of a lesson learning Rally than anything else. He;ll be back in the game soon enough, I'm sure.

I still think it's amazing that Tommi did as well as he did, but don't rail on Burns too hard. This rally is by far the most I've seen Tommi smile in a looong time...

As for learning heel/toe - you have to make sure the car you're using is setup for it first of all. If the brake and throttle are too far apart, it can be very difficult. If there's not a lot of space in the foot well, or you have really big feet, you may have problems as well. Try getting used to the positioning of your feet with the car turned off first - left side of your right foot on the brake, roll the right side on to the throttle. Clutch control isn't an issue here since your left foot is free - the advantage over left-foot braking.

Like Idjiit said, you should practice it during a halt. But I think it's better to have the engine turned on so as to see how the revs are affected by the movements of your foot. It's not that hard though, you won't be sitting in a stopped car practicing it for 2 hours. Just try it a couple of times to get the feel of it. As for matching the revs, just give it a lot of throttle at first and then see how it goes.

Lastly, I wouldn't recommend shifting up without a clutch cause even if you get it right, your gearbox will eventually end up on the street. It will just happen later if you get it right.

I'm not interested in shifting up without a clutch, but matching the revs better to speed up my action on the clutch. (Decrease the time in which the clutch is depressed). It is very annoying for me at the moment, 'cos I'm not used to the revs of the gears so I have to do the conventional, 1 2 3 on the clutch. If I can match the revs better, I hope to be able to speed up my upshifts.

I had a little go at the different techniques while driving the other day and I found it really hard to control the amount of braking. Using my left foot especially (LFB) it wasn't smoothe at all. Something to get used to I guess. And had the same problem with my toe (H&T) with not having the same control my right foot would have on the brake.
I'll keep at it and see if I can improve. Can't do heel/toe if I can't brake properly with the toe.

Cheers,
Ciao,

-Vivski-

Well if you're downshifting like crazy you obviously want to brake hard so you'll be at full brakes. But you can get accustomed to h&t or shifting up only by experience and by spending a lot of time in the car. You just have to get used to it, there is no technique that I or someone else can tell you, it's different for every car, since they have different gearboxes and clutches. I can shift up in sth less than half a sec in my car, but it takes me about 2 secs in my dad's car because I'm not used to the clutch (then again I'm not trying that much because it's not my car and I wouldn't want to miss a gear or sth).

[garpon]

Thanks tommi_fan for the link! I am downloading it right now at less than the speed of light :mad: .

Is it just me or are lots of us using our dad's car to practice driving techniques?

Poor dads. :D

[garpon]

I have just watched the video :eek: . There is no sound, right? My eyes are probably bad because I cannot see what he is doing with the clutch and shifter, the shifts are too expert and fast. :cool:

I know, I watched it several times to understand what he was doing. No need to be dissapointed though, Rohrl is considered to be the best rally driver ever, so it's ok I think if we can't understand his techniques.

Anyways, I am NOT using my dad's car! I'd be in trouble if I did, I would probably ruin it. I used my mom's car at first and then mine.

My guess is that LFB isn't going to be much of an issue for most of us who are using clutches... Heel and toe is the thing to learn since the whole point is braking, shifting and controlling the throttle all at the same time.

LFB is going to be most helpful for "normal" people when you're already in gear, coming out of a turn. If you find yourself coming out of a turn, and understeering - that's when you need to think about Left Foot Braking.

For the record, I am absolutely not using my dad's car. ;) He drives an automatic Toyota Corolla and lives far away.

[Biberle]

Hi,
I´m new to this discussion. if only i had read it before...

Had the chance to go in a ford focus wrc (2000 model) a day before the arctic rallye. the driver was mika sohlberg, one of the premium-class finnish private drivers and best friend of mika häkkinen (who, by the way, visited the rallye too and stood just three yards away from me).

Unfortunately i didn´t keep notice how his techniques were. I just know that during this ride (we drove abaout five miles on a snowy, small path with 80 to 90% of rallying speed) his display got stuck by showing sixth gear, which was a bigger problem than i thought.

Just a few words about left foot braking or heel-and-toe-braking in regular cars. IMHO it doesn´t make any sense at all due to several reasons. One is that - at least in my car, it´s an audi tt - I got only "one axis" of brakes and gas. It´s an E-gas-system, and as soon you step on the brake pedal, the electronics shut doen the gas, so its´not possible to break and rev up at the same time.

Another thing to notice are the regular gear boxes. Even in quite sporty cars as mine, clutch and gearbox weren´t buit for anything like speed shifting at all. If you do it too quickly over a long period, clutch and/or gearbox can break down quite early.

The third and maybe most important thing to notice: After 30 months and 45.000 miles i´m really used to my car (it´s the quattro-version with the 225 hp engine). I really think i can go quite fast with the car, though i´m not a racing or rallye driver, of course. I assume that the fastest way of going fast with a non-racing-car is driving with *normal* techniques. Until you learned basic driving techniques, years have passed by and you don´t ever think of heel/toe braking and things like that. For an example, the best way to go through an hairpin for a "normal" driver in a "normal" car would be something like this: Brake on the straight coming onto the corner, shift down every single gear. Breaking should be done exactly at the moment you start turning into the corner, due to avoid understeer. Turn in and keep the wheel in that position. At the same moment you start turning in step on the gas. Steer the car just by adjusting the throttle. More throttle can be both, understeer or oversteer, depending on the concept of the car. Left foot or heel/toe braking IMHO isn´t necessary; the effects you want to achieve with this technique don´t play a role with regular cars as other aspects are more important, like the abs system or the loss of mechanical grip. :)

Sorry for my bad english,
Michael

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Biberle ]

[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Biberle ]</p>

Luckily, some of us know how to disable such systems, for really "spirited" driving.

On gravel, first thing to happen after putting the gravel tires on is to pull the ABS fuse. ;)

I agree with you somewhat, that these techniques don't apply much to day-to-day driving (they originally came up in the context of driving in CMR2), but I genuinely think that rev-matching and heel and toe driving can be useful, and is a good skill to learn.

For anyone who is driving fast with a FWD or AWD which tends to understeer, there is no replacement for LFB in tight corners, in my opinion.

When I say "rev-matching", I do not mean speed-shifting, which I would never recommend to someone using their daily driver with a gearbox that isn't using straight-cut gears. When I say rev-matching, I mean when you downshift, place the throttle at the RPMs that match the gearing and speed of the vehicle - therefore, the balance of the car is not upset. This is a valuable technique for anyone to learn (although it's arguably less fuel efficient).

Yes, it's fuel consuming, but you protect your differential(s) and clutch, so it's worth it. But still not every single time you brake

Maybe we should start a new thread, 5 pages is quite big!

[Biberle]

Hm, i still somehow have to disagree :)

A good friend of mine went quite far into this "drivers experience" stuff, where you´re going onto racing tracks and have former pros as instructors. But left foot or heel/toe-breaking never has been on the schedule. I think in regaular, quite modern street car it just isn´t an issue, even not if you want to go real fast.

Michael

I suppose it also depends on the car you drive. Mine has no electronic systems whatsoever.

[garpon]

My low price vehicle doesn't have electronic brake fuel cut-off throttle thing either. I heard that a Mercedes C32 AMG cuts off fuel when the brake pedal is depressed too. I wonder why the manufacturers would do this? What does a burning clutch smell like? Just wondering :p .
Is there a tiny bit of burning clucth smell after a quick run to the supermarket- even without mishifting or any bucking of the vehicle? Or is that burnt brake pad smell? Does anyone know what exhaust system sounds good on a Ford Focus 2.0 Litre engine car? A good (but skill-less substitute for left foot braking would be one of those electronic stability control things; DSC for BMW, ESP for MB, Autotrac for Ford, etc. :o

You'll know a burning clutch when you smell it. I think Subaru clutches are notoriously smelly. When I lived in San Francisco, I used to burn it a lot trying to parallel park on 45 degree hills. It's a very acrid smell... Disgusting.

Thank god I never smell that! I dont like changing clutch discs every month!

[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: tommi_fan ]</p>

[garpon]

But I have to smell that! Oh well. Did you mount mud flaps onto your car? Are they floppy ones or more rigid molded ones? Do you think gravel kicked up by tires can damage the paint on the sides of a car (right behind the wheel well on the doors)?

I'm not sure if youre talking to me or Idjiit, but I don't have mud flaps (although I want to). I think rocks thrown up from the wheels can damage quite a few things, including the paint. But then again, maybe the can't.

Garpon -
I don't have mud flaps, although I probably should. I'm not overly worried about my paint job. It is already pretty scratched up - even just from driving against brush, etc. But honestly, I didn't buy my car for the paint job.

What you really should do, as I have done, is make sure you install a real skidplate to protect your engine and other crucial elements from getting rocks thrown up into them. I've got a 3/8 inch aluminum skidplate which has saved my bacon more than once, as many rock-scars will attest to.

Hey Idjiit, did you get that STi you were talking about yet?

tommi_fan -
It's not out in the US yet, so no. It hasn't actually been confirmed that it's going to be released here, it's all speculation at this point. The latest rumor says that only 1,000 will be sold, and that it won't be out until next year - but who knows?

I just bought a house in November, so money is pretty tight. I love my WRX wagon, so I'm not in too much of a rush quite yet... but I think it would be quite hard to resist the STI, so I'm half hoping it doesn't get released here for another year or so!

Why does it take so long for cars to be released in the US?

tommi_fan
There's no easy answer to that, Nick. Sometimes it can simply be due to marketing, which I think is the case with the STI and the US. This is the first year that a turbo Impreza has been offerred here. Previous versions of the Impreza have been normally aspirated only. It is widely believed that the previous chassis configuration could not pass the US crash tests, due to the exhaust manifold intruding into the cabin. Whether this is true or not, no one knows. But for whatever reason, the US had to wait for the new body style before they introduced it.

So far, the WRX has exceeded Subaru's sales expectations here. They had originally planned on releasing 10,000 in the first model year, but that number quickly changed to 15,000. So, right now I think they feel like the don't have a compelling reason to introduce the STI, since interest in the "normal" WRX is so high.

The new model WRX hasn't been doing quite as well in the UK and Europe, however. It has been criticized in the press as been "softened" versus previous years, so the introduction of the STI was crucial to Subaru "saving face". So far the new STI7 has been getting stellar reviews so their approach appears to be working.

Other reasons it takes longer (in general) for cars to be introduced to the US is import regulations, and California's stringent emissions standards. Basically, any car that is introduced into the US has to adhere to California's requirements, since it's such a huge market and it doesn't make sense to develop a different car for each state. Some manufacturers, however will ship cars with different ECU settings (BMW does, I believe).

[garpon]

Idjiit,
Thanks for advice on the skidplate. Where did you purchase this skidplate? Where did the scars come from- not gravel kicked up by tires, I hope?
Do you lots of snow during the winter? Do you have a set of studded snow tires like on rally tv? Does anyone know if you can actually purchase those really narrow snow tires?

The local Subaru dealer said the STi will be released in Canada as well as in the United States in September 2002. At least this is what he said. I have also heard that the Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VII will be released around then as a 2003 model, in both Canada and the United States. I hope both are true; even though I wouldn't afford any, seeing them fly around roads would make me happy.

[garpon]

What does "Do you lots of snow" mean? I don't know. I think it means "Do you have lots of snow."

garpon -
We don't have a lot of snow here in North Carolina, usually only about a foot a year. So, no... I don't have any studded tires, I only use "All-Weather" tires.

My skidplate was purchased from Paul Eklund at Primitive Racing, a driver who runs an Open-Class WRX in the US SCCA Pro-Rally. You can check him (and his many numerous products) at http://www.get-primitive.com

The scars are mainly from going up serious 4X4 roads, and getting "hung up" on rocks, also from clipping rocks on gravel roads. Not a big deal - that's why I have it!

Here's my WRX in full gravel-gear:

http://home.dal.net/idjiit/deathvalley2.jpg

That's out in Dalley Valley, CA.

Also, if you want to get studded tires, look into Nokian - the Hakkepelitta 1's are studded, not sure where to get them in North America though.

http://www.nokian.com

[garpon]

idjiit,
That is one nice car! :eek: Those gold color wheels look good. Thanks for the info on the skidplate and tires. Too bad my car is only a small front wheel drive with limited suspension travel (I think). Maybe one day I can get a second hand WRX. Oh well.