I dont want to use a crossbow!

[Ewlyn Silverbow]

why are the crossbows so damned powerful in this game? its crazy they do so much more damage per hit than equivalent dps bows. I cant see any reason for this, and my elf hunter is never going to use a crossbow, regardless of stats, it would be nice if i wasnt gimping myself because of this!

I feel either bows need more damage, or perhaps crossbows should'nt be able to use abilities such as rain of arrows and swift BOW (not crossbow), as its actually impossible to fire a crossbow that fast!

just my 2 cents

[Therod]

Its impossible to fire a bow as fast as Rain of Arrows ( well and atually hit anything :) )

its like all games its upto the player, there are faster bows btw which normally have a lower max damage than a same DPS slower bow. the Slower bow would do more damage with skills than the faster and they are both bows :)

Crossbows do more damage per hit but less hits per minute. on auto shot a 13DPS bow (speed 2.4) and a 13 DPS Xbow (speed 3.4) will do the same average damage over time..
The bow would be better than the Xbow at interupting the enemies casting/shooting..

[Therod]

Also the elf bow bonus to damage does not apply to Xbows.. only bows.. :)

[Belechael]

why are the crossbows so damned powerful in this game? its crazy they do so much more damage per hit than equivalent dps bows. I cant see any reason for this, and my elf hunter is never going to use a crossbow, regardless of stats, it would be nice if i wasnt gimping myself because of this!

I feel either bows need more damage, or perhaps crossbows should'nt be able to use abilities such as rain of arrows and swift BOW (not crossbow), as its actually impossible to fire a crossbow that fast!

just my 2 cents

Check the relevant thread in the US Forum for some enlightenment. The Americans, as usual, are more into technical details than us, and some have provided the community with excellent data on this subject.

Apparently yes, the xbows are more powerful because the skills check damage and not DPS, and the faster bows can not compete in that area.

However, some tests have indicated that in a long fight the Total damage inflicted from a bow will be roughly equal to the xbow's damage. For short fights the winner is the xbow.

[Iolas]

I use both...

I have an power stealing bow and a High damage crossbow.

But be carefull using a crossbow, because when you are in a Fellowship you will draw Aggro very easy and you will be responsible for whiping out a whole felloship!!

[kowaltig]

you can use a moraledrain xbow for soloing and a powerdraining bow for fellowships

[Ewlyn Silverbow]

Also the elf bow bonus to damage does not apply to Xbows.. only bows.. :)

So they are forcing us Elves to use the weaker option? I dont want to turn this into a whine, but if at endgame all the best ranged weapons are crossbows, as they have been so far in the game (my Ferchu does less top end damage than a yellow quest reward crossbow with lower dps!) then it's going to ruin playing hunter for me.

[Teriodin]

I use a bow because I roleplay a bow-using Hobbit Hunter.


I don't care if the crossbows do double bow damage, I'll stick with my bows. :D

[Finve]

I would like to use a normal bow compared to x, but the stats realy are against that. In my opinion somethning similar to rl shold be done about the two. In other words..... xbow should be a good choice for your all around good guy who uses bow once in a while, but a real bow should be for those who take time learning the TRAIT. As in real life when bow's where used in warfare a skilled bowman was far superior in usability compared to a xbowman. The only trouble was that they didn't have time to train skilled bowmen in the quantities they needed for ever on going battles.

So my suggestion is that usage of a bow in battle should build up a trait wich in turn would in the longrun narrow the gap or even turn it in favour of a bowman.

[Therod]

So they are forcing us Elves to use the weaker option? I dont want to turn this into a whine, but if at endgame all the best ranged weapons are crossbows, as they have been so far in the game (my Ferchu does less top end damage than a yellow quest reward crossbow with lower dps!) then it's going to ruin playing hunter for me.


The Elf bow trait goes some way to narrow the gap..

If you are Roleplaying your Elf then thats the price you pay. Just like roleplaying a Champion that only uses daggers. Would not be fair to raise the top end damage on the daggers coz your roleplaying.

Ofc a Crossbow could have higher top end damage and less DPS ( damage per second) because it is slower firing... 10-20 damage on a 15 DPS bow speed 1 and a 10-30 damage on a 10 DPS Crossbow speed 2

To the above poster you can only very loosely use RL as a base for such things, this is a game it has balancing to consider..

But to your point Crossbows are easier to learn how to use with greater accurracy/time spent training. ie takes longer to train accurate archers..

Crossbows have better range because they have a higher "muzzle velocity"
Your average soldier could pull more heavier Crossbows than bows the whole 1 hand pull of a bow vs the 2 hand pull to load an Xbow..hence longer ranges on the Crossbow

Yes Bows are faster to reload but Crossbows take no effort to hold ready to fire, whereas a bow does.

also because of the Higher "Mussle velocity" they were easier, no more instinctive to aim at moving targets because you did not have to lead your target so much.

[Ueauvan]

i am an elf and 39 hunter, i have two bows; fortified lebetrhon for power drain and ornate lebethron for morale drain. i aint gonna equip a stinking dorf lovin' crossbow !
as for roleplaying, i always grimace when a hobbit wants to use a 7ft longbow ...

[zimoo]

I hear what you're saying about us being disadvantaged for sticking close to Tolkien's lore. I definatly would like to see swift bow/rain of arrows not be available with crossbows (for the reason you stated...and because it may stop other hunters ruining my Tolkien experience by having an xbow).

[Azimov]

Crossbows have better range because they have a higher "muzzle velocity"
I dont think this is true of the real life versions due to the way they were intended to be fired.
Crossbows are designed to be a point and shoot type weapon, where as longbows would be fired at an angle upwards to have the arrows pelt down from above at long ranges.
I see some program with this bald medievil weapons expert on bows, and im sure in the comparison bows won on range and rate of fire, where as crossbows won on acuracy.

Anyway back on topic, I also will be loathe to use a cbow when the time comes as I just dont think it fits with an Elf.
I am not a roleplayer but I do have a thing for archery probably from all the old robin hood programs and films, and elves are just bitchin cool :D

I just about managed to get away with using a cbow in FFXI due to the fact you also had guns, and the Elvaan had a pretty badass way of pointing and firing both.

[Shakari]

The Elf bow trait goes some way to narrow the gap..

If you are Roleplaying your Elf then thats the price you pay. Just like roleplaying a Champion that only uses daggers. Would not be fair to raise the top end damage on the daggers coz your roleplaying.

Ofc a Crossbow could have higher top end damage and less DPS ( damage per second) because it is slower firing... 10-20 damage on a 15 DPS bow speed 1 and a 10-30 damage on a 10 DPS Crossbow speed 2

To the above poster you can only very loosely use RL as a base for such things, this is a game it has balancing to consider..

But to your point Crossbows are easier to learn how to use with greater accurracy/time spent training. ie takes longer to train accurate archers..

Crossbows have better range because they have a higher "muzzle velocity"
Your average soldier could pull more heavier Crossbows than bows the whole 1 hand pull of a bow vs the 2 hand pull to load an Xbow..hence longer ranges on the Crossbow

Yes Bows are faster to reload but Crossbows take no effort to hold ready to fire, whereas a bow does.

also because of the Higher "Mussle velocity" they were easier, no more instinctive to aim at moving targets because you did not have to lead your target so much.

Actually in RL and I ain't talking about modern day, Bows had better range, were more accurate and fired faster.....

the down side was the fact the to do this with a bow you needed years of training to pull 125 lb bows ...

the Xbow on the other hand was at closer range more powerfull and needed to be reloaded by a winching mechanism or leaver and was far simpler to use thus any one even the lowest peasant could kill a king with it.

But for accurate fast and rapid death dealing at range bows were superior and were used until superceded by the musket

[Ceriad]

Actually in RL and I ain't talking about modern day, Bows had better range, were more accurate and fired faster.....

the down side was the fact the to do this with a bow you needed years of training to pull 125 lb bows ...



It was more than years of training, in the golden days of the bow in Europe, English and Welsh boys had bows from childhood and their physiques developed accordingly, hugely overdeveloped right arms and shoulders for pulling the bows. The pull was estimated to have possibly been as much as 180lbs or 80kgs (The modern longbow, for any of you who've tried one, has a pull of about 60lbs). Lengthwise they were estimated to have been in excess of 6 ft or 1.8m.

And for anyone in the "crafting is too hard mwa mwa" camp ;) - Yew Long Bows could take as long as 4 years to make.

For the OP, my Elf is a girl, and she's sticking to her crossbow, who wants to look like a lopsided popeye :D

[Therod]

I was not comparing what a mutated Longbowman could pull :)

Your average soldier could not use an English longbow, as it required years of training from a young age so it actually warped your body.
as for range it all depends on what you mean effective or accurate and also alone or Mass archers..

I heard that Xbows are mentioned In Lotr think it was Gondorians that used them.. Not sure as this is second hand info..

anyway Xbows are hear to stay, I cant see then stopping Xbows using some skills, they had added a trait for elves to encourage them to use Bows.

I am sure Turbine did their research and added Xbows coz they were in Lotr .

I dont remember there being many Loremaster throwing spells around and having animal pets in the books.. yet no one is whining about them :)

[Therod]

But for accurate fast and rapid death dealing at range bows were superior and were used until superceded by the musket

Musket was really slow at firing totally inaccurate but had range and was easier to mass produce ( be it badly at first :) )

[zimoo]

Crossbows were never mentioned in any of Tolkien's works. They may have existed, but they weren't mentioned.

IMO crossbows should be removed from hunters and given to a less ranged-efficient class, such as guardians.

[Ceriad]

For the OP http://lotro.warcry.com/db/item/1933 & http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Weapon:Flightsong appear to be the slowest end game bows. Speed of 2.4 gives a higher damage per shot than the other bows I can see. The first can be crafted so isnt hard to get, second a drop.

Giving this further thought, there are subtle advantages to using a fast bow apart from the fact that you are interrupting your target. You can build focus quickly using quick shot and swift arrow and skill timer reduction traits, so precision/precise stance become less useful, possibly then using strength with a fast bow counter-balances the more obvious effectiveness of a crossbow. Also, your own shots are less interruptable. I often struggle with birds as they interrupt most of my shots with a crossbow for example. Like several people have said, it seems unlikely the devs havent given the balance a fair bit of thought (Saying that despite the fact that they didnt see fit to include putrid fingernails)

[Ceriad]

Crossbows were never mentioned in any of Tolkien's works. They may have existed, but they weren't mentioned.

IMO crossbows should be removed from hunters and given to a less ranged-efficient class, such as guardians.

IMO guardians shouldnt have ranged weapons, how can you use a bow with all that armour ;)

Joking aside, we're all actually on the same side in this game, why call for nerfs?

[Ueauvan]

the welsh created the longbow, the english beat them and nicked the idea then created over time mutated shoulder longbowmen call yeoman. noone else could pull 140-180lb bows or wanted too, as archers were the primary target of enemy cavalry. crossbows were used by the french, german and swiss predominantly. in europe there were lots of heavy plate cavalry and the best solution to either killing/wounding/dismounting these knights was the crossbow. longer to reload less skill and physique to use, more penetration at short range. accuracy questionable. a skilled yeoman could put 3+ arrows in the air and hit targets over 100m away. personally ill take skill and 160lb bows with clothyard arrows then again im english. iirc the french had crossbows and heavy cavalry at crecy and agincourt, the english had yeoman and luck.

[Theninir]

the welsh created the longbow

Wales ftw :P

[Wolfrim of Rohan]

yes crossbows have more damage per hit but they are also slower. With the right feats slotted a bow user is going to score more high-damage styles than a cross user and get more criticals. In a fellowship i suspect that damage is in fact fairly even as fights last a little longer.

When you're against low-health mobs a crossbow can have an advantage in sheer damage dealt in the one or two shots you get in. To be honest, if they are dieing that fast then who cares about a fwe extra damage.

Soloing a bow is going to get in more shots before the enemy closes. This is often a far better advantage than raw damage as you can get 3 or 4 styles off before the mob begins to interrupt your induction time. Once the mob is in melee with you the crosbows slower shots combined with interruptions will reduce the overall dps a lot more.

crosses however will do excellent damage with % based styles.

It's all a trade off, I for one prefer the speed and aesthetic of a bow, so you'll not see me with a cross. I have been in a fellow recently where I had the 30 hunter quest bow reward and another equal level fellow had the x-bow, there did not seem to be much difference vs the elite trolls in SE ND and i did beat him on aggro generation once or twice when i really let fly with the big damage styles.

I dont believe you are gimped for using a bow.

[CloakVai]

the welsh created the longbow, the english beat them and nicked the idea then created over time mutated shoulder longbowmen call yeoman. noone else could pull 140-180lb bows or wanted too, as archers were the primary target of enemy cavalry. crossbows were used by the french, german and swiss predominantly. in europe there were lots of heavy plate cavalry and the best solution to either killing/wounding/dismounting these knights was the crossbow. longer to reload less skill and physique to use, more penetration at short range. accuracy questionable. a skilled yeoman could put 3+ arrows in the air and hit targets over 100m away. personally ill take skill and 160lb bows with clothyard arrows then again im english. iirc the french had crossbows and heavy cavalry at crecy and agincourt, the english had yeoman and luck.

I seem to remember that we had a hill covered in mud as it had been raining and arrogant french noblemen trying to charge heavy cavalry up it just got stuck and became target practice. As I recall they also sent the peasant rabble away as they thought they could win in one glorious charge..If they had sent the rabble up the hill first to tire out and expend the archers arrows it would probably have been very different. The longbow was certainly a monster though and rightly feared.

[Azimov]

French get 0wned at Crécy (http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/W/weapons/longbow2.html)

[hekate]

as were going all historical out of interest did you know that the rude V sign with the hand came from the longbow contingent.

when captured by the enemy the french would cut off longbowmens two fingers to disable them from fighting again.

because of this longbowmen at sieges used to flip off the defenders of castles they where laying siege to as a taunt.

[Kheld]

I read somewhere that the British did consider training Longbowmen for the Napoleonic Wars, but didnt because of the "humiliation factor" (technologically regressive).

Musket - 3~5 shots per minute.

Bow - 10~20 shots per minute.

I watched the Master Archer at Warwick Castle rattle off 22 shots once, cant remember if it was in 1 minute or two, but he claimed there to have beaten the world record.

[Ceriad]

as were going all historical out of interest did you know that the rude V sign with the hand came from the longbow contingent.


I always believed this to be a fact, but while checking up some of the history of bows read that it may be a myth, and that ironically it was a gesture created by the French in the 15th century - I guess its that long ago that no-one can say which story is true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#Mythic_origins

[Ueauvan]

weather = luck
and maybe a touch of arrogance on the part of the french ;)
and the v sign is a myth as stated

[markakeen]

weather = luck

Well not really. The whether is part of the backdrop to the battle. It's how the Generals react to that which is key. Charging across muddy fields while being massacred by archers was not "unlucky", just arrogant and stupid.

[Ydyp]

Also I saw a few time mentioned that xbow is easier to handle then bow. Why do we get the xbow skill at level 30 and bow from start then? Oops did I throw out the real live analogy right now ;)

For me I don't mind if a xbow hits harder, as long as they hit slower. Equalling the same dps on autoshot. Now for the skills swift bow and that other one, I would agree with disabling them for xbow. Try to reload a crossbow twice as normal, then imagine to reload it fast enough to get a flurry of bolts. Not really that realistic, not even for a game. And if you say bow can't be used for that many arrows either, then check out the intro movie to see the explanation, 3 arrows in one shot ;)

[Therod]

Also I saw a few time mentioned that xbow is easier to handle then bow. Why do we get the xbow skill at level 30 and bow from start then? Oops did I throw out the real live analogy right now ;)

For me I don't mind if a xbow hits harder, as long as they hit slower. Equalling the same dps on autoshot. Now for the skills swift bow and that other one, I would agree with disabling them for xbow. Try to reload a crossbow twice as normal, then imagine to reload it fast enough to get a flurry of bolts. Not really that realistic, not even for a game. And if you say bow can't be used for that many arrows either, then check out the intro movie to see the explanation, 3 arrows in one shot ;)

The point is its a game, Xbow is a skill you get past L30 its slightly better for Skills but slower with autoshots does not get the elven bow damage bonus which goes some way to closing the gap in damage.

You cant compare things in a game to real life. Things in game are there for many reasons..


On the Real life front.. what about Repeating Crossbows they exist they can fire bolts very fast.

A bow can only fire one arrow accurately at a time if you try to put 2 or more arrows in a bow at once your chance to hit with them is tiny due to the flight dynamics and the release angles and the wind resistance and the way you would be holding the adittional arrows in place. Also each arrow would have lower damage due to shared power on release.

Makes for good viewing in Movies or game intros but is as likely in real life as someone casting fireball :)

I dont really see the problem as any Hunter over L30 can use a Crossbow, if you choose to not use one for Roleplay reasons then thats your call.. Just as if i choose to not wear meduim armour for roleplay reasons i would not expect to have light armour boosted to Meduim armour damage stopping status.

An archer in real life would drop his bow or even just run off if melee troops got close to him.. Its very very hard to shoot someone with a Bow while they are trying to hit you with a sword, also bows are very fragile compared to a sword/axe etc so one hit to it would normally make it useless.

Crossbows are a little tougher than bows but still fragile compared to a sword. Probably a little easier to fire once in combat if it was loaded before the attacker reached you.

I dont hear anyone saying that we cant use Bows/crossbows in melee range, also you seen the speed which we swap to bow from melee weapon , hardly realistic, also we dont use arrows or bolts noone is whining about this fact either.. certainly the latter is far more Unlife-like than Crossbows in Lotr.

[Ceriad]

Having spent a couple of hours last night pvping, I think I'll be using a bow in there once I hit 50 (2 more draggy levels to go, thats another whine though :)) The xbow is too slow for zerging, I was getting killed occasionally because I was being forced to finish a slow xbow attack when I should have been retreating with all the cowardly meleemen :D . Its also too slow in that I was only getting a couple of shots on my targets before they pulled out of range, sometimes losing them before I even got a single shot finished.

Swift Arrow - Bringing RL into this to argue against xbows having swift arrow is a straw man, time we got the debate back on track. Hail of arrows, Storm of arrows for example kill the argument - are we talking bows, xbows, or Uzis? This is a game and we are the nearest thing in it to a damage caster class - we arent WoW hunters. Be grateful for what we've got and stop asking for nerfs.

[Stigmata89]

They should make a skill for hunters to make bow more efficente then :p

But I used both. I had Bow of the Rising crossbow. It was great but I prefer bows now. At lvl 43 missions and epic quests battles take long. The bow will increase the damage more then crossbow. Also I never did pvp, but I do kite people/monsters. I wouldn't want a pansy ass slow crossbow while kiting I need to be fast :P With elvish trait of bow and other triats i have total of Damage +10% from bows.

*spoiler*

In book 5 Chp8 We had a hunter using Powerstance and Xbow. He pulled hate fast, he also was one of those people that after pulliung hate they keep pumpling not stop attacking to tank gets hate. Me? I was using a bow and enduring stance. Later in the fight I pulled hate and ended up kiting the nazgul. Long fight Bow > Crossbows and later level bosses tend to have lots of HP.....




When can we kill that 400k+ HP Dragon!

*end of spiler*

[Vargur]

as were going all historical out of interest did you know that the rude V sign with the hand came from the longbow contingent.

when captured by the enemy the french would cut off longbowmens two fingers to disable them from fighting again.

because of this longbowmen at sieges used to flip off the defenders of castles they where laying siege to as a taunt.

I thought they cut off the left thumb to prevent the archer to hold the bow, but you might be right.

As for the crossbow vs bow discussion, it appears as crossbow win in tests and statistics, but I think there are more to the picture than this. First of all, have the tests factored in that you can increase damage by using more styles with a bow, and how much does auto-attacks affect the comparison?
Have the tests factored in monsters interupting and this effect on actual DPS?

There are probably more questions regarding the tests and which weapon is the better. Numbers flashing across the screen and on spreadsheets can tell one story and the results on the batlefields another. My gut feeling is that crossbows are better when fighting blue-con mobs or less where the drawtime of the initial pull is negated, and in long fights where power might be an issue, but for most fights I think bow isn't necessarily any worse off than crossbows.

[Bamber]

....clip....while kiting I need to be fast ....clip....

what exactly does that mean ?

as for me - i had the Quest reward option for the bow or xbow and went with my gut feeling and ignored the xbow.
can't really explain why but it just doesn't seem right
i will have one at some point to try it out but i'll probably wait till i can craft a decent one myself or use one from a drop or a fixed quest reward.