Hunter learn how to play your class

[Hardoin]

Now I am sure there are some good hunters out there but from my perspective as a Guardian most hunters really do not understand how to play the game - particularly the whole issue of 'aggro'

This post - http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184676 - is a guide for Guardians but it also explains a lot of information about the whole issue of threat/hate/aggro and I really think many hunters shoudl read it to understand their role in a party.

Thanks

[Hardoin]

Actually sorry I posted this. Just seen the excellent guide here:

http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=183008

[Kaii]

My response is posted in the Guardian forum......Touché! :P

[dathylbran]

LOL, touche indeed.

[Ysolla]

I look at guardians as 'little princesses' like a high maintenance girfriend. They have to be centre of attention. They constantly throw hissie fits and tbh id rather use a good champion, Less maintenance and tend not to blame everyone else for their failings :)

[Instakiller]

Now I am sure there are some good hunters out there but from my perspective as a Guardian most hunters really do not understand how to play the game - particularly the whole issue of 'aggro'

This post - http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184676 - is a guide for Guardians but it also explains a lot of information about the whole issue of threat/hate/aggro and I really think many hunters shoudl read it to understand their role in a party.

Thanks
i would love to make a thread named
Guardians stop whining about us hunters and L2p yer own class
instead of complaining on other classes learn to tank so we hunters dont get aggroed
if yer a good tank and love to do your job even the worst hunter shouldnt be able to take aggro of that tank and then you wouldnt have a reason to come here and complain about bad hunters

btw this is hunters home and you "guardian" dont belong here
leave this open for the real hunter problems

[Lorianne]

How come people allways do everything them self right and others does everything wrong. :) Maybe they aren't doing it right, but they own ways and want others do the way they like it?

[Rickon]

I don't understand why so many ppl think they know they're class so well, and don't even TRY to listen to other classes.

This guardian is giving some helpful advice. I'm sure he/she knows there are good hunters out there who DO know how to play they're class, but its good all the same to hear some views opinions for the ppl who could actually USE that info.

So stop the "i'm a god-hunter, i dont need your advice, and learn to play ur own class comments" when someone is trying to help.

the same of course goes for guardians when they get "friendly" advice on tanking from other classes, they should not just go full out "im the tank, im God, i know everything there is to know".

My point is: there are good players and there are players who could use some help to get good. And that goes for EVERY class.

--------------
Rickon, guardian on Evernight.

[Jerusahat]

I've been playing with a guardian friend since level 1, and we've had the luxury of experimenting with managing aggro together. The post rings true; I will add this though-

1. Turn off auto attacks, and learn to toggle it. It's perfectly possible to pull with a hunter, provided you tag the mob once with that attack, and then let the guardian aggro-cycle the mobs. Barbed Arrow isn't recommended, as it often generates more aggro than the tank can grab back rapidly.

2. Keep your distance. A guardian can start a fight, but you can still trigger your focus generation, lay traps and remain in shooting range. However, Guardians; try to resist launching into battle when you're close to the hunter if possible. We have a focus generation bail-out, but there's a cooldown.

3. Skill forwarding is handy for dishing out poison cures, but can often get you into trouble if you're targetting the guardian and they tab through untapped mobs. I've found it best to target the mob, and hope it's concentrating on the guardian when the skill triggers.

[Instakiller]

I don't understand why so many ppl think they know they're class so well, and don't even TRY to listen to other classes.

This guardian is giving some helpful advice. I'm sure he/she knows there are good hunters out there who DO know how to play they're class, but its good all the same to hear some views opinions for the ppl who could actually USE that info.

So stop the "i'm a god-hunter, i dont need your advice, and learn to play ur own class comments" when someone is trying to help.

the same of course goes for guardians when they get "friendly" advice on tanking from other classes, they should not just go full out "im the tank, im God, i know everything there is to know".

My point is: there are good players and there are players who could use some help to get good. And that goes for EVERY class.

--------------
Rickon, guardian on Evernight.
so what you are saying here is that people who dont play a class know the class better then the class player its self ?
comon dude
im not telling a tank how to tank how the hell should i tell a tank how to tank if i never even rolled a tank up to 50
see what i mean??

if a tank has rolled a hunter to 50 and he's rerolling a tank and then comes here and tell us how,what we could change to our game play he's verry welcome to do so cause he played the 2 classes

but if you are a tank and just complain cause you lose aggro to a hunter
then stay away from this forum i think we hunter players know our class better then any other class BECAUSE WE ARE ACTUALLY PLAYING ONE!!!

[davejm]

Insta, you're getting too defensive here.

This is all helpful advice, and shouldn't be read as anything else IMO. There are plenty of players playing LOTRO of all classes that don't understand the group dynamic, and if posts like these help then I don't see the problem. If you're playing your class properly and don't need the advice, then good for you.

It puts a totally different angle on learning how to play your class if you're more aware of group tactics and aggro management - knowledge which applies to all classes. If someone doesn't play their class properly, they shouldn't be beyond criticism from another player just because they play a different class.

I'm enjoying playing my Hunter, and there's some sound advice in the two threads linked at the start of this topic.

[Ceriad]

so what you are saying here is that people who dont play a class know the class better then the class player its self ?
comon dude
im not telling a tank how to tank how the hell should i tell a tank how to tank if i never even rolled a tank up to 50
see what i mean??


Not many of us are as good as you mate ;) , I welcome feedback from other classes as it can only make me a better Hunter.

[Delbo]

if a tank has rolled a hunter to 50 and he's rerolling a tank and then comes here and tell us how,what we could change to our game play he's verry welcome to do so cause he played the 2 classes



Now that was a voice of reason...

There are quirks to every character and I've got 5 different classes myself (all level 20 or so bar a level 46 hunter). So with that I get a vague understanding of what the other classes can do, and more specifically what they need. So as you say rather than people bitching about hunters pulling aggro from guardians (and its tough not to with our dps) they should just get on and work out how they should best deal with it.

And finally I've found my hunter tanks reasonably well. Its not so much that he absorbs damage, its just that with such a high agility he evades and gets missed quite a bit. Tanking by speed is still tanking. Whilst it may not be as effective as the guardian its still pretty effective.

[Gilmir]

*edit* First I want to write that actually I think the thread is titled agressively and that the OP has to be blamed for quite a lot of bad blood in the thread just by not naming it eg "friendly advice to hunters wanting ot play in fellowships" or anything like it... I don't know, maybe he just came out of a session with a "moron hunter" and was angry. But it comes off arrogant *edit*

As a minstrel I sadly have to say that there are a lot of hunters who actually really don't know how to play their class in fellowships.

It's not an insult, it's a fact.

For every really good hunter who is a wonderful addition to any fellowship, you meet three morons who don't get it, that they should learn when to hold back their damage output and/or rains of arrows etc.. Even if they die repeatedly.

Sadly the only way to deal with them is not to heal them and let them die. If a hunter gets aggro in every fight, I tend to stop healing them after giving a warning in advance. No other way to get through the point...

Some examples of problematic situations:
- If the hunter is higher leveled then the tank of the group, it's VERY easy to overshoot and get aggro even on a single mob,
- if you hit a mezzed mob (Rain of Arrows anyone?), chances are you'll get the aggro at once, or even worse, the minstrel will get the aggro if he had to heal already,
- if you get aggro and keep pouring out damage with penetrating shots & melee specials, it's harder for the tank to get the mob off you. You have to get healed (for a lot more then the tank in the same situation as you have only med with no shield) causing the minstrel to generate massive aggro an ALL mobs in the fight

All the examples you meet in _many_ PuGs...

I think, the only class that's causing more nightmares for minstrels (& guardians obviously) are the champions. BUt they do have heavy armour at least and a self heal.

So please don't get offended at once that people try to tell _some_ of you how to improve your way of fellowship play. All the hunters that know their trade should just ignore this thread and/or be happy if some of the (many) lesser informed hunters maybe become less annoying fellowship mates for everyone else.

Btw... Level doesn't really mean people know what to do. I grouped with a lvl 50 hunter who died twice as often as any other member of the fellowship while doing the final chapter of book V. During the last fight he died after 30 seconds roughly... The fight lasted maybe 5 minutes. After he died, the rest (no 50s other then him) managed quite nicely to finish off the big boss...)

*edit* Also, it's quite understandable and, in a way a given fact, that there ARE a lot of more bad hunters and champions then bad guardians or minstrels. The later tend to be people who want to play their class because of its usefulness in fellowships and actively think about their part. There are a lot of hunters/champions who play their class as they think it's easy to solo and just plainly "cool" and don't give damn about the others. As always, if you are not like this, don't be offended! Just aknowledge the fact, that there are many who are. *edit*

[Gilmir]

And finally I've found my hunter tanks reasonably well. Its not so much that he absorbs damage, its just that with such a high agility he evades and gets missed quite a bit. Tanking by speed is still tanking. Whilst it may not be as effective as the guardian its still pretty effective.


No it's NOT effective. This from a minstrel whose main concern is to have a good tank. The problem is, with tough elite / master elite etc. If you get hit, you might go down in two hits as you have paper thin armour and no shield. So, you are NOT a good tank. A tank has to RELIABLE _absorb_ damage, not rely on chance. With luck you'll avoid the first one or two hits without anyone even noticing that you have aggro (ranged mobs ring a bell, they don't have to walk to you...) and then flatten you with the next hits. A proper tank has much higher parry / block skills then you might ever have, as they can directly buff it up.

You may off tank an add maybe but should do it ONLY if there is a specific reason for it (like minstrel getting hit). Any class (except for a Loremaster) make more decent off tanks / damage cussions then hunters.

[Delbo]

You may off tank an add maybe but should do it ONLY if there is a specific reason for it (like minstrel getting hit). Any class (except for a Loremaster) make more decent off tanks / damage cussions then hunters.

I didn't say hunters should tank - I said that a guardian is the more effective tank. Hunters can avoid a lot of the damage - sort of tanking by speed. I get hit around 1 in 4 times by mobs at my level due to my high agility - I agree that my armour is low, but the fact of the matter is the hunter will dodge and dive attacks. Which is useful because they often get the aggro because of their high dps which is the reason many hunters end up tanking for a second or two when a mob changes its aggro.

But before you tell us how our classes work you seem to say in your previous post that you see hunters get aggro who you then decide to stop healing, and then in the next paragraph bitch about how a level 50 hunter died twice. Is that his fault? Or does a minstrel have to take at least some portion of the blame? A fellowship works by making the whole more powerful than the sum of its individuals, by seeing where some classes have inherent lacks and covering them with other class skills.

[Gilmir]

I didn't say hunters should tank - I said that a guardian is the more effective tank. Hunters can avoid a lot of the damage - sort of tanking by speed. I get hit around 1 in 4 times by mobs at my level due to my high agility - I agree that my armour is low, but the fact of the matter is the hunter will dodge and dive attacks. Which is useful because they often get the aggro because of their high dps which is the reason many hunters end up tanking for a second or two when a mob changes its aggro.

But before you tell us how our classes work you seem to say in your previous post that you see hunters get aggro who you then decide to stop healing, and then in the next paragraph bitch about how a level 50 hunter died twice. Is that his fault? Or does a minstrel have to take at least some portion of the blame? A fellowship works by making the whole more powerful than the sum of its individuals, by seeing where some classes have inherent lacks and covering them with other class skills.

So basically you say that you have a combined evade/parry/block of 75%? Somehow I can hardly believe this. Maybe post a screenshot of your character screen?

First of all, in my post I din't "bitch" about the hunter dying. I just stated that he kept dying without changing his tactics in any way. As there were other fellowship members NOT dying that often (among them a champion who has the same possibilities to draw aggro as a hunter) it's plain to see that it was HIM that sucked at understanding the fellowship balance. As his dying didn't affect the final outcome of the quest that much (just his repair bill), I honestly didn't care.

If you understand a thing about fellowship aggro management you realize that a hunters job is to deliver maximum possible dps WITHOUT drawing aggro (accidents happen of course, but then you usually should just stop drawing it anymore) and a minstrels job is to keep: 1, himself, 2. the tank, 3. the rest of the fellowship alive. In a hard fight if the minstrel dies, everyone dies, if the tank dies, all wipe mostly as well. All other classes are very important, but more "expendable". So if I have a guardian loosing morale roughly at the same speed as I can heal him I can't heal a hunter who got aggro. If it's a case of, as you said "drawing aggro for one or two seconds", a minstrel doesn't have to heal. It's mostly not possible that quickly actually. If that happens and you actually get hit once, I'd wait for the tank to reestablish aggro and heal him up in a free moment not risking drawing aggro myself. But if a hunter draws aggro and keeps it, he's usually destined to go down. So I don't even try to heal him as that would be mostly useless and dangerous. And after playing for quite a while I don't give a second thought about letting the hunter die if he draws aggro constantly. Better him then the tank or even the whole fellowship.

[Delbo]

If you understand a thing about fellowship aggro management you realize that a hunters job is to deliver maximum possible dps WITHOUT drawing aggro (accidents happen of course, but then you usually should just stop drawing it anymore) and a minstrels job is to keep: 1, himself, 2. the tank, 3. the rest of the fellowship alive. In a hard fight if the minstrel dies, everyone dies, if the tank dies, all wipe mostly as well. All other classes are very important, but more "expendable". So if I have a guardian loosing morale roughly at the same speed as I can heal him I can't heal a hunter who got aggro. If it's a case of, as you said "drawing aggro for one or two seconds", a minstrel doesn't have to heal. It's mostly not possible that quickly actually. If that happens and you actually get hit once, I'd wait for the tank to reestablish aggro and heal him up in a free moment not risking drawing aggro myself. But if a hunter draws aggro and keeps it, he's usually destined to go down. So I don't even try to heal him as that would be mostly useless and dangerous. And after playing for quite a while I don't give a second thought about letting the hunter die if he draws aggro constantly. Better him then the tank or even the whole fellowship.

You're not exactly telling something I don't already know - when I get aggro I cunningly use the beneath notice skill and off goes the mob back to the guardian. I never once said about prolonged tank (vb), its short term when the damage to the mob is such that he wants a piece of whoever is giving him the damage. And besides are you confusing the noun tank (i.e. Guardian) with the verb tank (i.e. Reducing damage) in what I've said? You're going off at a tangent here with the stuff about minstrels and guardians dieing.

[Tankwulf]

Ohh a guardian trying to tell hunters their job, and also minstrel other classes joins in. Stick to your own forums, this place is (as mentioned) for _real_ hunter issues. It's not a place for you to come cry because the hunters in your group are too much for you.

And btw. minstrels here's a tip anyways: Don't be morons and run away from the tank when you're being attacked.. run TOWARDS him. I've seen 100000 of those nübs running about randomly in panic when attacked, then complaining on the tank, being their usual cheery, non self-inflatory self (as healers always are).

Since Guardians and Minstrels seems to be hanging around in our forum, why don't show a little class and give them a little treat here, instead of doing like them and crash their forums. Let's make this a thread for telling other classes what they should be doing. We know they will read it anyways.

Guardians? They're just trying to get hunters to adapt to them, so they woun't have to learn proper tanking. If hunters are afraid of doing damage, then they woun't have to be on the ball and tank skillfully. L2P, plain and simple. They're mostly lazy and crappy (at least 90-95% of them). It's the same in all MMORPG's. God bless the devoted ones.

HUNTER FFFTTTTTTTTTTTWWWWWWWWWWW

[tmp]

a minstrels job is to keep: 1, himself, 2. the tank, 3. the rest of the fellowship alive. (..)

But if a hunter draws aggro and keeps it, he's usually destined to go down. So I don't even try to heal him as that would be mostly useless and dangerous.
In other words, your 3 point task list for minstrel is actually 2 points long in your case. Out of curiosity do you tell your fellowship members in advance you won't even try to heal them if they draw the agro, and so they shouldn't be counting on the #3 of minstrel's rulebook when playing with you?

[Gilmir]

In other words, your 3 point task list for minstrel is actually 2 points long in your case. Out of curiosity do you tell your fellowship members in advance you won't even try to heal them if they draw the agro, and so they shouldn't be counting on the #3 of minstrel's rulebook when playing with you?


Nope, it's three points, although the third point is far down the list. I didn't have a single group complaining about me being a bad minstrel. I've had a lot of groups complaining about hunters or champions overaggroing. Most difficult instances are built around the same principle: first off some easier fights, so there is time to warn people to change their tactics if they tend to overdamage and draw agro too often. If they don't do anything about it, I usually let them drop really low before healing. If this doesn't help, I let them die. After all, I can resurrect after the fight is done. If this doesn't help, they die against bosses anyway, as usually in these fights it wouldn't be possible to keep a _badly played_ nuker alive anyway, even if I very much wanted to. So yes, I do warn people about my "rulebook". And this with good reason.


You're not exactly telling something I don't already know - when I get aggro I cunningly use the beneath notice skill and off goes the mob back to the guardian.

So, according to the terminology that I'm used to (May be wrong) you're not tanking at all. You're getting rid of aggro as soon as possible which is exactly what I think is the right thing to do and tried to say so in my post.

Tanking for me is deliberately drawing aggro towards you to force the mob off weaker fellows (or fellows who shouldn't be interrupted as usually a minstrel eg has more morale & armour then a hunter of the same level but should be undisturbed to be able to heal anyone). In my view a hunter should tank only in very special cases. Usually risking his own death which ultimately might be sometimes the only way to prevent a wipe.

I can only repeat it again. A hunter is (from the pure standpoint of durability) the second worst tanking class in the game due to low armour, dex dependency, no reliable stun and no self heal. Face it, hunters _are: the so called "glass cannons" in this game and should be played accordingly.

To finish: I want to repeat once again that imho the thread has a very wrong and agressive title. But as it's the the only one where people discuss this issues...

And also: I have some hunters in my friends list whom I consider really brilliant players and would invite to a felowship any time. As I met two bad hunters for every good one, I thought some constructive advice from a different point of view might help someone. If anyone has to get upset and offensive because of this, well that's their problem.

By the way - this isn't a sub forum for hunters only - it's one for discussing issues connected to this class, so don't try to impress guilt on anyone who hasn't a high level hunter and is trying to discuss here.

[Delbo]

By the way - this isn't a sub forum for hunters only - it's one for discussing issues connected to this class, so don't try to impress guilt on anyone who hasn't a high level hunter and is trying to discuss here.

No you're right its not. Its meant to be a forum where ideas can be passed around instead of other classes coming in, bad mouthing an entire class (for every 1 hunter there's 2 bad ones...?), and not having a real idea about the class itself. So coming in and having a go probably isn't the most constructive post.

If you want to contribute to how a hunter should be played then play one, then come back and tell us how a minstrel would prefer a hunter to play. Perhaps even then you might learn how a hunter would like a minstrel to play. If you set in stone your tactics and don't adapt to each individual situation then you've lost the overal battle already.

[Gilmir]

(for every 1 hunter there's 2 bad ones...?)

Don't misquote, for every GOOD hunter I met two bad ones. Just my personal experience. Maybe I was unlucky. But there simply are tons of Legolas wannabees out there... And quite a lot of them are clueless

Of course experience teaches also that the 66% "bad" hunters use the forums less then the 33% good ones, so it won't apply in this scale to the forum readers.

I tried to describe quite precisely how I would like (or rather not like) a hunter to play in a group.

In a nutshell it's: don't draw agro unless you really have a reason for it and you know why you're doing it as when getting agro you lose health endangering either yourself or your healer and on top of it can dish out less damage as you're in melee.

That's it. Oh, and remember... If you get agro it's very often not the tanks fault, even if you try to be careful. They too can miss, get resists on their taunts etc. And you can eg. get crits and suddenly a spike of damage. As someone mentioned before: learn to just stop shooting, too if you are doing too much damage.

[faenbessain]

I usually only get aggro when an add comes into play that usually heads straight for our Minstrel. And if it's a ranged mob i even have a slight chance of surviving, as i believe my ranged evasion is at least at par with a guardians.

Of course i wouldn't try to tank a Dragon if there's no immediate need to it, at the moment three or four lucky hits would strike me down before the healer could even notice my situation...

[Shariva]

Tanking for me is deliberately drawing aggro towards you to force the mob off weaker fellows (or fellows who shouldn't be interrupted as usually a minstrel eg has more morale & armour then a hunter of the same level but should be undisturbed to be able to heal anyone).

On the blue part I have to disagree with you. I have grouped quite a few times with minstrels (nearly everytime I was in a group) and mostly the hunter has more morale and armour then the minstrel. Hunters can use medium armour as a passive skill, where minstrels have to equip a trait to wear it. As for morale, I've seen on all but a few cases that the hunters morale was higher then the minstrels when they were the same level.

As on the red part; I totally agree with you.

I can only repeat it again. A hunter is (from the pure standpoint of durability) the second worst tanking class in the game due to low armour, dex dependency, no reliable stun and no self heal.

Again I have to disagree with you on this again. A hunter makes a good alternative tank for ranged enemies. Our agility makes us rather hard to hit for ranged mobs and we usually outdamge them. With it, it's usually the minstrel that draws aggro from ranged mobs because they do one heal (be it group or single target), and then the tank abilities of the hunter are rather usefull. Especially since the guardian and other melee classes are to busy with the one mob, it's usually the hunter that watches the minstrels picture in the group. When the morale drops, it's rather easy for the hunter to take the aggro of the minstrel and do the tanking there. It might cost the hunter his/her life, but if the minstrel dies, the entire group dies.

In light of what I previously said, I always notify the minstrel in the group to type aggro in fellowship chat when they draw aggro. I have target forwarding on by default and those five letters are taking less then five seconds to type. I personally believe that it's the hunters job to protect the weaker memebers of the group (minstrel and lore-master) from harm and ensure that they can do their job. This simply because we hunters are standing a little further from the battle taking place and can see what adds there come or who draws aggro. Not getting one shot in on a mob won't wipe the whole group.

[Delbo]

Tanking for me is deliberately drawing aggro towards you to force the mob off weaker fellows (or fellows who shouldn't be interrupted as usually a minstrel eg has more morale & armour then a hunter of the same level but should be undisturbed to be able to heal anyone). In my view a hunter should tank only in very special cases. Usually risking his own death which ultimately might be sometimes the only way to prevent a wipe.

See thats where we're at a loss of understanding on 'Tanking'.

Tanking is a MMO term which refers to the ability to stop your enemy from doing damage to you, or at least maintaining the damage they do to you. Its either achieved by absorbing the damage, reducing the damage, avoiding the damage, by having a large amount of health or by replacing the damage or a combination of all.

The Guardian has an additional role within Lotro to its ability to Tank the mob damage, that is to get the aggro off of the fellowship and onto themself. Purely because they're the ones that can best deal (tank) with the damage and allow the other membership of the fellowship to maintain their roles.


I can only repeat it again. A hunter is (from the pure standpoint of durability) the second worst tanking class in the game due to low armour, dex dependency, no reliable stun and no self heal.

This shows an ignorance of the hunters ability. Yes we don't have a self heal you're quite right, but we do have other mob control aspects. Cry of the Predator sends beasts running off, bards arrow sends fear into all mobs and they run. Whilst we need to stop and think before entering battle we can lay traps to stun opponents. Laying campfires increases morale/power regen of all fellowship members.

In addition having a high agility allows us to avoid and evade attacks, addition it also allows us to absorb more common damage. So looking at armour levels isn't the only factor in damage. A guy with no armour can dodge about a lot faster than some guy in plate mail wielding an axe.

Also when a mob may come at my hunter I know I can strip it off its morale in short order as its running over the distance towards me. If its a big mob or still has more than 1.5k health I'll go beneath cover to hopefully send it back to the guardian. If it doesn't go straight away I'll sit back on the skills and wait for it to go.

On the other hand if the minstrel is receiving missile damage I will take that mob on depending on its location. If its away from the core of the battle then I'll go for it. My missile evasion is pretty reasonable and I'll stop the mob firing on the minstrel. If its an elite master then I'd hope the guardian was aware of what was going on, or a call to a lore master to stun it, or whatever other tactic can be used at the time for that particular situation.



Face it, hunters _are: the so called "glass cannons" in this game and should be played accordingly.


Yes. And the first thing any strategist will tell you is take out the artillery. The Artillery is an asset in any battle and should be protected, its not surprising we get aggro occasionally just because of the sheer weight of dps going in. Are you suggesting we stop and send them a bunch of flowers?

Its the Guardians job in conjunction with a considerate hunter to ensure that aggro doesn't come to other members of the fellowship. But as the artillery it will no matter how hard you try (unless you're not doing anything). And the first time you'll know the aggro is coming is when that mob turns and runs at you.

So your phrase may be true but said in a fashion that hunters are in some way inferior to minstrels. You, as another fellowship member, should understand that your hunters should be protected otherwise your battle will take 3, maybe 5, possibly even 10 times longer if you don't have them there. (Could you sustain the power in heals?) From one of your previous posts you even said that all other members of the fellowship, bar the guardian and minstrel, are not your priority - so its all well and good if your fellowship has got a 'heart and brain' but no arms and legs to fight with... So rather than put yourself on a platform realise that all your fellowship members have a role to play within the fellowship, no one member is 'better' than all the rest, we're all just different. If one class was clearly better then surely more people would play that class. (And no, thats not a snide remark in saying hunters are the best class because there's so many of them... ;) ).

[Gilmir]

On the blue part I have to disagree with you. I have grouped quite a few times with minstrels (nearly everytime I was in a group) and mostly the hunter has more morale and armour then the minstrel. Hunters can use medium armour as a passive skill, where minstrels have to equip a trait to wear it. As for morale, I've seen on all but a few cases that the hunters morale was higher then the minstrels when they were the same level.
OK, then maybe I am a not so typical minstrel. I have grouped with (obviously) a lot of hunters and I can't recall a single one who would have my morale at the same level. And I don't even really try that hard to raise it with gear (I tend to go +will/Power and Power regen obviously, when grouping). Maybe it's the traits I've slotted.
Cry of the Predator sends beasts running off, bards arrow sends fear into all mobs and they run.
Both true, but - the first one is very specialited, the second one a legendary trait that at the moment not so many hunters do have. Later it will change obviously.
Whilst we need to stop and think before entering battle we can lay traps to stun opponents. Laying campfires increases morale/power regen of all fellowship members.
Traps are very powerful indeed if used wisely. Have to see it used properly on higher levels. Until now, no real luck. Campfires are an out of combat ability, so don't really matter for the sake of this discussion
On the other hand if the minstrel is receiving missile damage I will take that mob on depending on its location. If its away from the core of the battle then I'll go for it.
That's exactly what I meant when writing about "getting agro exactly when you know for what reason". I tend to seek cover in this situations whenever possible to draw the enemy in melee range of guardian etc. Still there are areas where it just isn't possible (Dol Dinen eg) and then it's a perfect reaction of the hunter if he can take over this mob.
So your phrase may be true but said in a fashion that hunters are in some way inferior to minstrels.
Nope, no one is superior or inferior to anyone. The fact is that the minstrel is the least "expendable" character in a fellowship (assuming there is just one, otherwise it isn't as true), followed by the guardian (again, if one), followed by any other classes. It's not a question of supriority, it's a question of tactical value. If I survive as the last one in the fellowship, I can mostly feign death and resurrect everybody. If I die (and there is no captain or another minstrel around), all others can return to the start of an area to pick me up again loosing time and progress.
The Artillery is an asset in any battle and should be protected, its not surprising we get aggro occasionally just because of the sheer weight of dps going in. Are you suggesting we stop and send them a bunch of flowers?
Actually, yes ;) If you come under attack by a mob (and not intentionally), you should under most circumstances just do that: stop. And maybe even send them a bunch of flowers with your "beneath notice" skill. This way you do protect yourself best. Dropping a heal on you in this situation doesn't change the situation. Mezzing might (if you have a LM) but can also only work, if you... stop. Otherwise it doesn't help as well. Granted, in most such situations if I see it, I'd fear the mob away with my shout but then again, if you don't... stop. It's just short time and temporary as feared mobs are hard to agro for the guardian as they are running around.
You, as another fellowship member, should understand that your hunters should be protected otherwise your battle will take 3, maybe 5, possibly even 10 times longer if you don't have them there. (Could you sustain the power in heals?)
While somewhat true, utterly exagerated. You mean that a loss of one hunter will make the fight last three times longer?? That's just laughable and you know it. First of all, a loss of one hunter in a typical fellowship is a loss of maybe (max) 25% of dps. But only if the hunter didn't constantly get melee agro. If he is constantly under attack in melee (and that's the case with the hunters I'd "let die"), you lose maybe 10% of dps. Max. But I would need to constantly heal him to keep him alive wasting a huge amount of my power.
Again, I'm not talking about properly played hunters who know how to keep themselves safe and are not kamikaze nukers. I mean the reckless all out damage types that constantly draw any kind of mob on them, be it melee or not. These ARE expendable. Totally.
From one of your previous posts you even said that all other members of the fellowship, bar the guardian and minstrel, are not your priority - so its all well and good if your fellowship has got a 'heart and brain' but no arms and legs to fight with... So rather than put yourself on a platform realise that all your fellowship members have a role to play within the fellowship, no one member is 'better' than all the rest, we're all just different.
Yes, that's what I mean. In no way I'm putting myself on a platform. I think I quite clearly made my point, why the survival of the minstrel is the top one priority of any decent group though. Not because of ego, because of tactics. And it's true, that you need all "legs & arms" you can sustain. It's also true, that you might fight without an arm... So if the choice is between me or a hunter or between guardian or hunter to die, the hunter IS more expendable. And of course I try to keep everyone alive if possible. Except for utter morons sometimes... ;)

[Forza]

As i was a maintank for 1.5 years in a game i won't mention ;) and play a hunter in lotro, i hardly ever draw agro.
As for the 'who's fault is it' discussion, imo its usualy the huters fault as a good hunter can overaggro any class tanking if the hunter and tank have comparable gear.
But beeing a good hunter does not mean never getting agro, it means dishing out max dps without aggro'ing to often. This is in fact a very thin line and even a good hunter wil cross that line once in a while when he gets 2 or more crits in a row for example.

Now if the hunter draws agro it should not be a big problem, but the hunter should have a respectable distance between him and the tank so the tank has time to gather the mob before it reaches the hunter.
Offcoarse if you get agro as a non tanking class do hit escape and stop doing damage, if you do the tank wil be able to regain agro after just a few seconds. Do not run away just stay put, you don't want to waste your focus points and give the tank a harder time to control the situation. If you realy want to run, run towards the tank.
When tanking multiple mobs the hunter should be more carefull as the tank is not always targetting the same mob as he has to keep agro on all of em because he is getting healed, and thus the healer is making threat on all the mobs at once.

The skill of tanking is not only managing agro it is also quickly retargetting any mob that runs of and regroup the mobs in a nice bunch again, its keeping free mobs away from mezzed/rooted/whatever mobs.
Its also deciding when its ok to release a certain mob when it is low enough to get killed by other classes when it does run away, because a good hunter wil increase his dps when he feel confident he can finnish a mob of alone.
The healer should know when a hunter is in melee with a mob that is nearly dead, he should not heal that hunter as he wil survive and a hunter at 30% hp dishes out the same dps as a hunter at 100% hp.

And never compare a pug to a kinship grp, pugs wil simply never be as good as ppl who always play together. But understanding the basics of threat (wich is almost the same in every game) is a good start of having fun in a pug.

[Delbo]

Thought we flogged this one to death already :D

But you made a very interesting point which I'd like to reaffirm

But beeing a good hunter does not mean never getting agro, it means dishing out max dps without aggro'ing to often. This is in fact a very thin line and even a good hunter wil cross that line once in a while when he gets 2 or more crits in a row for example.

I do find that some other classes are unaware of the fine line that we tread and my missile critical chance is just under 22% so the chances of me hitting two criticals in a row is high. In fact hitting four or five in a row is certainly not unheard of considering how many arrows are loosed in a long battle.

What the hunter then does with that aggro is what defines a good hunter. But its been known that players of other classes with no knowledge of the mechanics of the hunter will often start spitting venom because the hunter has picked up aggro (regardless of whether the hunter then sits back on their dps and allows the tank a chance to get back the attention of the mob).

[Forza]

But its been known that players of other classes with no knowledge of the mechanics of the hunter will often start spitting venom because the hunter has picked up aggro (regardless of whether the hunter then sits back on their dps and allows the tank a chance to get back the attention of the mob).


Aye, true and thats because its so obvious when a hunter gets agro as the mob starts running towards him. Melee dps'ers often get agro aswel but most of the time it goes by unnoticed because the mob just turns for a few sec and is gathered back by the tank quickly.

And yes at 22% crit it is hard to control your threat. Since we get damage and crit from the same stat there's nothing much we can do about it xD, not that i wanna see that changed hehe :p

[Feredir Laurelin]

3. Skill forwarding is handy for dishing out poison cures, but can often get you into trouble if you're targetting the guardian and they tab through untapped mobs. I've found it best to target the mob, and hope it's concentrating on the guardian when the skill triggers.

I have tried to shoot through a guardian a lot, and generally it works ok.

However, the guardian tabbing through targets rather than selecting the closest target (or clicking on what he/she wants) has caused horrible party wipes, which is a shame.

So, I have learnt to be a bit more conservative and take a bit of time but, of course, this reduces the amount of damage dealt....

That said, when there is a juicy target to clobber, such as a very large turtle or robed traveller with a dislike for fire (to name only two), it is scary how much damage can be dealt.

The main problem I have found is hunters are very often not a popular recruit into the party - champions seem to get the nod and after close to 47 levels of hunter activity, I am not convinced that the class is viewed by others as a nuker. It seems to have picked up a lot of prejudice because of its similarity to another hunter class in another popular MMOG.

I am also left with the strong impression that experienced parties would rather grind out a success with a champion substituting for the hunter (with all the advantages of heavy armour and resistance to AOE) than risk the accidental pulls that are often encountered when travelling with hunters who aren't careful.

For me, the class needs to be looked at to make it more playable, but I think this has been at least partly done with the latest update.

[Ker]

A little story..

My good friend and I were paired at around level 20, a guardian and a hunter. It was a little fractious as the hunter needed to pull a mob from the open to a quieter area but he would keep blasting the mob with arrows until he was within melee range. Only then was I able to get the mobs attention.

"Why do you keep firing after you've tapped the mob?" I demanded
"Because once I am in melee I can't use my DPS" he replied
"So just tap and wait 'til it turns to me then back off" I retorted
"But I can't move in a fight."
"You are Rooted??"
"No, but I lose focus."
"...what's 'focus'..?"

So he gave me a brief tutorial and we started adapting our tactics. I should probably have demanded that I tap the mob or found a better way to intercept the mob en-route but I had no idea of the problem. There was in fact no way for me to know since he didn't mention it til I complained.

I felt somewhat justified in my viewpoint; you see, a guardian is a one-trick pony performing the most basic function in the long established strategy of MMO group combat. Exactly how we do it is irrevelant to the other classes - they only need to know that it takes a little while for our tender ministrations to get the attention of the mob and during that time you had better lay low if you want our protection. What everybody else is doing to damage the mob whilst it is pounding me is not relevant to my job of keeping its attention on me.
That's the role and everyone knows it. (Occasionally a new face to MMOs doesn't know and the fact becomes apparent. I will stop to discuss basic tactics and hopefully enlighten said newbie). If I have an additional ability that is not integral to this role I will be sure to mention it if I intend to use it - for example I often carry throwing axes nowadays for those awkward pulls but if I didn't say so any ranged damage dealer would naturally think that he would be preferable as puller.

DPS and other support comes in a bewildering variety of forms that each class knows the pros and cons of best. It is natural for me to assume that when one of these cons impacts the universally understood role of the tank then it is the responsibility of that player to use it carefully or either suggest the different tactic or bear the consequences alone (as in the example of a hunter off-tanking a ranged mob mentioned above)

The guardian is a simple soul with a simple goal. He is relatively fixed in his actions compared to the welter of possible actions of some classes. With the simple goal comes a degree of pride; he wants to be allowed to get on with his job without others interrupting and attracting the mob. Even though he requires the cooperation of the rest of the group to achieve this, it is all too easy for the guardian to become affronted that he wasn't allowed to do his job - as it reflects poorly on him.

I entirely disagree that guardians should be the group leader and he should probably mostly do what he's told - after all his role is understood by all and his job is to take whatever punishment the group deems necessary.

So, that is the crux of the 'Support Your Local Guardian' posts, in my estimation: some indignation about complaints that they are failing in their one and only goal on occasions where others aren't giving them a decent chance, coupled with a rather irrational sense of demarckation when anyone else gains aggro (except for their beloved minstrels, of course)

With apologies for defiling your forums...

[Macdui]

Guardian here... sorry

Have a low level hunter, burglar, champion and minstral all 18 to 21
Lore Master and Captains I'll likely never get to play, too much time and money invested in Grand Master and Master craft alts.

This is the first time I've play the tank in an MMO, I've done all the other roles in several other MMOs. Played the hunter, raid puller, role in "that other game" as well as the MT healer, even a Sage among other classes in AC2 (swore I never pay for a turbine game ever again).

There are a lot of people playing LOTRO with similar and more extensive experience. Other's come with extensive experiences of other genre games and others that read the books and come here as there first experience of MMOs.

I'm a firm beliver that you never truly know the capabilities of other classes unless you play that class through all levels of the game. Well I haven't got there yet so will try not too comment to much.

During the last 7 years I've played several games but been in only 2 guilds before LOTRO, first was a US guild as I played on US servers, second was when I was persuaded to come play regular hours on a UK server with European buddies.

Over all this time playing I've learnt that communication in all it's forms is paramount to my enjoyment and success. As well as the guild forum discussions on boss/raid strategies, classes, quest or just getting to know your guild (kinsmen) it's voice comms during play that makes the gaming experience more enjoyable.

MMO gamers have been using the likes of Ventrilo and Teamspeak for years now and they've revolutionised these games to the point where Turbine has incorporated it into their games. Now I've learned to loath PUGs due mostly to all the times when a guild run meant 99% success and PUG meant 20-30% success rate (for non-trivial encounters). The use of voice comms often gets that PUG success rate up higher however, but I'm amazed when I am drawn into joining a PUG how very few people have enabled voice chat.

I quit typing out tactics during an instance years ago. I don't have the inclination to set up Aliases for common phrases, it was a pain in AC2 and hasn't been recoded since.

The final part of communication that completes the experience is helping each of us learn what the other classes are capable of. Nothing turns me off an individual than the (cant bring myself to use the abbreviation) "Learn To Play" your class comments. MMOs are about working together and too many with this attitude and little constructive wizdom display only their own failings.

Some of the posts here are obviously from experienced players ever striving to play their class in a group environment to the best of their ability. All though will consider their opinion valid, but being all human we know we will differ.


Anyway... as a guardian if I pull a group with my bow and dive back out of LOS it means I want the mobs to come to us, it's not an invitation for the hunter to open up on an archer at the back or unload on the EM before it closes. Most hunters know to take a step or two back after the initial couple of pulls to set up for future pulls.

I try to be consistant when pulling so that everyone in the fellow generally knows what to expect after the first few pulls. Generally I want to choose the killing ground, which is invariably not their spawn point. Mobs might run. pathers might wander by. Mezzers can do their work as mobs close, then I can start to build the agro as they arrive to mellee.

Certainly as a major DPSer hunters are keen to full fill their role and we can understand that you will pull agro at times as you gauge what you can and can't do with the tank you're grouped with. If you do get agro on a tough elite I'd rather you then select another target to hit to give us a chance of regaining agro.

My main concern though is always the healer because he's the one that limits my repair bill.

[Morlu]

Well I have a Level 38 Mincer and a Lev 39 Hunter.

I normaly solo with my Hunter or Group with My brothers Hunter.

With my Mincers I play in a 4 man grp, no Hunter but we do have a Champ.

The point is that Hunters and Champs just melt under High-con Elite Mobs.

As a Mincer and Hunter I know this well.

If your in a grp with a healer, dont think your going to get healed if you pull the agro from the Tank.

To keep a hunter or Champ alive whould require a healer to spam there heals on you, pulling ALL the agro to the Healer.

So its simple, in a grp dont get more agro that u can kill with-out healing or you will die. Unless u have a noob healer that tries to heal you and then the all group will die.

The healer will be healing the tank! No-one cares if the hunter dies.

The same gose for Champs.

Harsh but true.

Its because of the above that my mincers will not join pick-up groups.

Ofc if you know this, your not the problem.

BUT there are lots of Agro happy hunters and champs out there and they cry for heals and whine when i let them die.

Valgore lev 39 Hunter, Jesabella Lev 38 Fixed group Mincer.

Im sorry but that post is rediculous, if the hunter pulls agro OFF the tank (as opposed to other mobs not already agrod) then the tank is not doing his job simple as that, the hunter in a straight fight is pure and simple a dps class, no debufs, no CC to speak of, just DPS, if the tank cant handle the amount of DPS the hunter is laying on then the tank needs some practice.
and saying no one cares if the hunter dies? good minstrels i have group with care if anyone dies, every group member has a part to play and so is important, yes if the tank dies a wipe is generaly about to happen, but if the dps dies trust me, you will be out of power long before the fight is over, and on higher level boss fights you will then die as well, all you do is prolong the inevitable, a healer should be looking out for everyone, not just the tank, what happens when you have a fight with 5 or 6 mobs? tank cant keep all of them on themselves, you just gonna let the other members of the group die?
your post shows a lack of understanding of the tank class and the wrong attitude for becoming a good healer at end game.

[Xinturaia]

i strongly object against your views (playing both a healer and DPS in LOTRO and other games).
With any decent DD you can pull aggro off the tank or even prevent him from getting it, even from the main mob the tank is focusing on if you really intend to do so.
I.e. EQ2, any wizard hitting a mob with an Ice Nova as first attack will get aggro. That is 10k damage / aggro and there is NO way for the tank to prevent aggro from being taken away. IF the healer tries to heal that wizard, he will be the next dead character after the wizards death as the healing will have generated more aggro than any tank will be able to get off him.

So as it is the job of the tank to keep aggro it is as well the job of the damage dealers to do massive damage without getting aggro. If it was otherwise, there would be no / no need for aggro-reducing skills and equipment. To manage the edge between maximum damage without getting aggro makes a good damage dealer.

Any healer that will heal a DD risking the tank going down is a bad healer, now, in endgame and ever. You will wipe if the tank is down. you still can - in most cases - finish the fight without wiping with a DD down (with can be rezzed even infight) and without the healer wasting his power on DDs (which drains his power far quicker due to the amount of healing they need AND the risk of him getting aggro - from assisting mobs most easily or even the main mob). So the danger of healing the DD is not only that you waste precious power but drawing aggro which increases the risk of a wipe.

From what you write you probably didnt play many tanks or healers lately i assume? So using your words on yourself, with this attitude you will never be a good DD, no matter what content you are playing, beginning or endgame.

[Morlu]

I play a hunter and a gaurdian, your right i havnt played a healer, never have, never will, just not my cup of tea, with my gaurdian, unless someone decideds not to let me attack first i never lose agro when grouped with players of the same level because all i do is tank, im not there to do anything but increase my threat, I see a lot of gaurdians in big fights using skills which do damage but do not increase there threat level, then they lose agro, keeping agro is very easy for a gaurdian as long as they are resigned to the fact that that is ALL they are there to do.

I understand what you are saying about the initial attacks drawing agro e.t.c. and yes the tank must always be allowed to attack first (unless a mob needs pulling away from others from range, in which case an auto atack should be used) this i concede is indeed down to the DD not being to eager, but once the fight is up and running the DD should be able to use all the skills at there desposal to put the mob down, there are some tanks ive group with that can do this fine, others need a bit more practice.

What i put about never being a good healer e.t.c. was a little harsh, and i appologise, I just dislike these L2P threads as they simply seem to be an unneeded dig at an entire section of the community.

[Delbo]

i strongly object against your views (playing both a healer and DPS in LOTRO and other games).
With any decent DD you can pull aggro off the tank or even prevent him from getting it, even from the main mob the tank is focusing on if you really intend to do so.
I.e. EQ2, any wizard hitting a mob with an Ice Nova as first attack will get aggro. That is 10k damage / aggro and there is NO way for the tank to prevent aggro from being taken away. IF the healer tries to heal that wizard, he will be the next dead character after the wizards death as the healing will have generated more aggro than any tank will be able to get off him.

Well its an interesting point but somewhat moot. Whilst on the surface, and indeed just underneath, Lotro resembles many other games. But all of these games are different and have subtly different game mechanics. I'm still amazed by the number of people that play and talk as if they're still playing a different game. Would you play draughts the same way as chess even though its on the same board? (Well admittedly its a rather extreme example, but I'll use it to hammer home my point).

So as it is the job of the tank to keep aggro it is as well the job of the damage dealers to do massive damage without getting aggro. If it was otherwise, there would be no / no need for aggro-reducing skills and equipment. To manage the edge between maximum damage without getting aggro makes a good damage dealer.

True, and its a lot easier to do when you know the people in your fellowship and how they play. I rarely pull the aggro off of the mobs now (unless its intentional to get them off of a loremaster or minstrel that needs a bit of respite). But that said I still will occasional get the attention of a mob. Its a case of having a few back to back criticals, they don't like it and come running. We've flogged that to death already though in this thread.


Any healer that will heal a DD risking the tank going down is a bad healer, now, in endgame and ever. You will wipe if the tank is down. you still can - in most cases - finish the fight without wiping with a DD down (with can be rezzed even infight) and without the healer wasting his power on DDs (which drains his power far quicker due to the amount of healing they need AND the risk of him getting aggro - from assisting mobs most easily or even the main mob). So the danger of healing the DD is not only that you waste precious power but drawing aggro which increases the risk of a wipe.

From what you write you probably didnt play many tanks or healers lately i assume? So using your words on yourself, with this attitude you will never be a good DD, no matter what content you are playing, beginning or endgame.

As a DD (is this a Hunter or DPS abbreviation, I'm not too sure within the realms of lotro ;) ) I don't expect to get the healers attention - and theres one major reason for that, in most fights I don't pull the aggro and therefore don't get hit. You'll find minstrels concentrating on the boys and girls getting whacked, but a minstrel of worthy calibre can normally protect all members of the group without it being down to sacrificing the tank. If its thats bad where the tanks on his last legs, the hunters too and the rest of the fellowship well its normally time to wake up in the stones. And I'll be honest, at that point I'll normally open up with everything I've got if I can't run away. Sometimes that final nuking will get the attention but will hopefully ease up the odds (and yes I expect the healer to save the guardian, so in turn the guardian can save the healer and I can be rez'd :) )

[Vanguard DOTA]

Got REALLY annoyed with a hunter the other day.
Now for a level 15 Barrow downs is not exactly a lovely place to be, agree? I joined a level 22 Hunter for the quest Escorting Lalia out of the Downs. He was dead sure we'd get it done, but i wasn't. I called upon a Burglar friend level 35 to help out. He did. 2 Burglars now (me and the friend) so we had no issues with stunning/mezzing the wights. But this Hunter seemed hell-bent on attacking everything in the vicinity, even the mezzed. Obviously we failed the Quest as not even my friend could handle so many wights and Barghest and what not. I wouldn't normally mind dieing but since i was still on my way to getting the Lv. 20 undefeted title i was Slightly furious.

Sorry for the long post but i had to get it of my chest. :P

I Play a Hunter as my main alt and i enjoy teaming with others during big nasty Quests but some do need to learn to play there class.

[Chasak]

tbh, i think that lvl22 hunter could have been any class and still agro everything that moves.

[Edhelwen]

I often find that people don't understand other classes. I have one of each class so I have variety and perspective. It has allowed me to understand other people's roles so I work better in groups, whichever class I play.
However, rather than get annoyed with people who don't understand, I explain things to them.
For example (sorry not hunter or guardian), my main is a 38 Captain, a role which many don't understand. I cannot act as a healer when entering dangerous areas with lots of elites unless we have a really good group that won't need much healing, and often have to explain this. People think it's a cop out and I just don't want to do it but they soon change their tune when everyone dies.
I have a rez I can use with a 1/2 hr cooldown and I will ONLY use it if the minstrel dies because if they die, I'm the only one who can bring them back and yelling at me won't get me to use it on someone else. If there is no minstrel, I will save it for the guardian.
Also, people never give you the time to get your herald out as you can't call them in combat, but they provide excellent buffs.
I frequently find myself having to explain how I play so that people don't start yelling at me during battle to do things i can't.
Sorry for the long post about captains on the hunter forum but I just wanted to show you that people of all classes have problems understanding other people's roles. Just because they aren't good in groups does not mean that they don't know how to play their class, they just might not understand everyone else's role properly. So do like I do and offer advice on how to work with yourself if someone isn't doing what they should be to help.

[Dirtball]

Got REALLY annoyed with a hunter the other day.
Now for a level 15 Barrow downs is not exactly a lovely place to be, agree? I joined a level 22 Hunter for the quest Escorting Lalia out of the Downs. He was dead sure we'd get it done, but i wasn't. I called upon a Burglar friend level 35 to help out. He did. 2 Burglars now (me and the friend) so we had no issues with stunning/mezzing the wights. But this Hunter seemed hell-bent on attacking everything in the vicinity, even the mezzed. Obviously we failed the Quest as not even my friend could handle so many wights and Barghest and what not. I wouldn't normally mind dieing but since i was still on my way to getting the Lv. 20 undefeted title i was Slightly furious.

Sorry for the long post but i had to get it of my chest. :P

I Play a Hunter as my main alt and i enjoy teaming with others during big nasty Quests but some do need to learn to play there class.
But did you just get annoyed by this or did you offer any advice to the hunter? If you didn't bother with the latter how's he supposed to learn. You can't just assume someone should know how to play a class because you know how to play the class.

[Godric Lionheart]

We, hunters could same the same about guardians or champions - "learn to play". I'm tired of rushing at mobs, when I'm in the middle of setting a trap, and they don't even wait if asked politely to

Or when they just hack any mob they want, completely ignoring that hunter has to take aggro from minstrel, because "our great tanks" are too busy rushing. Or... or... or...

So maybe the point of all these discussions of "learn to play..." is that we all help each other understand weaknesses and bonuses of our classes and actually plan a fight before it starts.

Oh, and "1 r00sh" is not the planning :P

[Woogie]

taken from the "guardian learn to play your class" thread in the guardian forum

im level 40 now not 37 but the jist of the post is still the same

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ................................

Right now heres my Essay and it may be abit hard to read and understand but im not very good at constructing posts and what not so sry lol...

Im currently a level 37 Guardian and loving it.... Tanking isnt exactly a challenge if you even have the faintest idea of what you actually need to do... have the correct traits equipped and use the correct skills.....

Now.... first off, as a general rule your fellowship need to understand that the GUARDIAN is the one who pulls and initiates fights.... if the guardian is overpulling and then failing to control the mobs then they suck...advise them of a better way to do it and be helpful... if they still repeatedly fail....get rid of them and find a new one..

now i always ASK for a few seconds to generate Agro on the mobs (but then ive never really found this too hard anyway) and to position the mobs where i want them... with there backs to the rest of the group as that way if a mob turns around you know you have lost its agro and can easily get it back.... i have a fairly decent block chance so as the mobs run too me i bunch them up... use the slotted Vexing blow adding threat to 3 mobs... then use Sweeping cut to further damage all the mobs infront of me + adding abit more agro.... and 9/10 ive usually blocked or parried at least once by this point, which enables me to do a AOE attack further adding to my agro and damage and then allowing me to do a sheild swipe.... which in turn allows me to do shield TAUNT.... not shield bash... i have yet to see many other guardians use shield taunt over shield bash....

now by this point ive usually got solid agro on the one mob im fighting and it takes a very high amount of dps (a stupid amount in most cases which usually means someone is VASTLY over dpsing) to take the agro from this certain mob from me....

now if at this point its all about holding the main targets agro... so i will continue to use shield taunt vexing blow and my various AoE moves.... this holds agro on the entire group while holding the agro on my main target abit more due to the constant non special attacks im also doing on it.... now if any of the mobs leave the group to attack a Minstrel/hunter/champion ill know about it within seconds due to them turning round or running off... now at this point its all about the GROUP as a whole adapting to the situation...

Alot of guardians fail to realise they have a skill called ROAR.... which correct me if im mistaken now adds a temporary debuff to the enemy FORCING them to attack you for a temporary period of time.... instantly taking agro off anyone that may have gotten in.... you then reposition the mobs where you want, others shift as necessary and rinse and repeat...

NOW... thats how i tank and the only time its ever failed are when other classes either OVER DPS, or fail to use there agro management skills...

Minstrels can Distract mobs to make pulling far easier (Song of distraction) which drastically lowers a mobs agro range making group pulls alot easier and if that gets messed up they also have a fear..... to eliminate one mob from the fight for a while..
They also have Soothing (Song of Soothing) and at later levels they also have Feign death which instantly drops there agro

Burglars are Ace when it comes to Debuffs and making fights Easier they can temporarily remove mobs from a fight using Riddle and smack on conjunctions at critical moments.... and if riddle fails they can always vanish and reapply it once the cooldown has finished
Burglars also have Trick Enrage... this causes a mob to randomly attack anyone he considers a threat... now this may mean life or death for certain members of the fellowship, if the Hunter over agros, the minstrel fails to agro dump or the guardian is having a hard time retreiving the agro from a dying member, this can make the mob attack random members of the fellowship while the guardian works at rebuilding the agro

Hunters should use Stance of Endurance in Instances and fellowships that involve alot of pulling and group management, i know it reduces your damage but at the same time reduces your threat.... helps guardians and stuff out alot, but then at the same time you also have a Beast fear... so remove a beast from the fight if necessary, also lay a trap in the path of the pull so it removes a mob from the fight, discuss with the tank which one would be best to remove and then you can work out how to pull it and remove it Also to drop that Agro, Beneath notice can be a god send

Champions dont really have many Agro dumping skills Bar Hedge but that can backfire a little bit and dump the agro onto the minstrel or a hunter..... but then that may be due to the guardian not doing what he is supposed to be, but iirc Champions had 2 new skills introduced in a recent patch which removes all agro from a member of the fellowship and can then dump it all on someone else... making Champions a vital part in saving a near dead member of the party

now i havent really grouped with a Loremaster or Captain very often so i cant really comment on there agro handling

Now id not say its any one particular classes fault but a mix of many classes not playing how they should or trying to play beyond there role and then those players blaming everyone else for there shortcomings.... now ive had alot of practice with maintaining Agro as i level with a Minstrel/champion/Burglar on a regular basis and all 3 of them love nothing more than to go all out on there healing/DPS just to draw agro off me so im a good at getting the agro back and maintaining it...

this game is all about Learning how to play the your specific class.... now you may think your the mutts nuts at your class and know exactly what you are doing but there are so many problems and niggles that need to be sorted out to make a fellowship work properly that its just silly to assume that its never you and always someone else.... im not saying im the best guardian out there and play my class perfectly because im constantly learning new things and having to adapt as well....

so my advice to EVERYONE is to stop assuming its everyone elses fault and to actually sit down and listen when a class makes a comment about how another is making there life difficult....

My main gripe is with hunters... they always seem to over agro or attack a random mob out of the pile and which then causes me to run around like a blue arsed fly trying to get the agro back while they are whining at me for not doing my job.... now it may be my fault for not stating which mob ill be attacking but ive found that 9/10 they will wait for me to fire 1 arrow to lure the back and will then unlease hell on a random mob before allowing me to grab agro..... and EVERY SINGLE one (bar one or 2) of them uses the +threat + dps stance....

so my Advice to hunters... use the -threat - dps stance and allow the guardian 5 seconds or so to build agro and use the assit button....

oh and guys... a fellowship wont work without communication, you have a problem or feel you have a better idea how to do things, talk about it....

[SCM]

so my Advice to hunters... use the -threat - dps stance and allow the guardian 5 seconds or so to build agro and use the assit button....

Even with doing this i found i can still pull aggro off a kin guardian who is 3-4 levels above me, even with them doing a great job of keeping aggro. At times it doesn't matter what stance you use you can pull aggro off a tank even if you aren't trying to, crit hits as a hunter is something you can't control and these can overcome any stance you are using to reduce aggro.

Best thing for hunters to do is let the guardians tank the elites in an instance while we take care of the normal adds, at least this way if we draw aggro it isn't a major issue and we can cope reasonably well. Then we pile in onto the elites after the guardian has got the aggro level so high nothing we do will draw the elite to us 99% of the time.

It just takes good planning and mob targetting to help everyone out, this goes for any class as well not just us. The amount of players who rush in blind and don't give others a chance to get ready is the main reason for a lot of problems in fellowships, all classes to blame for this at times.

SCM

[Woogie]

doing those things i never really have trouble holding agro......

hmmmmm its all trait dependant as well.... if he hasnt got all his + threat traits equipped he will struggle too maintain agro...

its a very delicate balance between the tank holding agro and the dps pulling it...

[Instakiller]

can this crap get a lock on it pls?

[Delbo]

taken from the "guardian learn to play your class" thread in the guardian forum

And we manage to go full circle once more. Hasn't all of this already been covered once, perhaps even twice, in this thread already? Its rather tedious now....

[Phantorus]

doing those things i never really have trouble holding agro......

hmmmmm its all trait dependant as well.... if he hasnt got all his + threat traits equipped he will struggle too maintain agro...

its a very delicate balance between the tank holding agro and the dps pulling it...

We are getting a damage buff in book 10.. so if your finding it to hold agro now isnt that a bit worrying for the future :P. Granted some hunters really do over agro at the start but generally I dont play with many guards only the ones i know can hold agro of me in strength stance for the whole fight :p.

[Dirtball]

Granted some hunters really do over agro at the start but generally I dont play with many guards only the ones i know can hold agro of me in strength stance for the whole fight :p.
Imho it's the hunter's responsibility to manage their own agro and not the job of anyone else including the guardian. They have a hard enough time worrying about minstrel's etc than having to worry about hunter's too (though they always worry about hunters :p ).

Just stick yourself in endurance or precision and play for the benefit of the group and not your own egotistical greed for DPS.

This is the rule I've always stuck to and as a level 44 hunter I can honestly say no guardian has ever found the need to shout at me for stealing agro and I have never been the cause of a wipe. In fact I'm usually the last to wipe in a group which is the way it probably should be (unless you've saved enough power for desperate flight that is).

As always, this is just my opinion.

[Gilmir]

IIn fact I'm usually the last to wipe in a group which is the way it probably should be (unless you've saved enough power for desperate flight that is).
Actually, from a purely strategic point of view (not because I play a minstrel myself) it's best to do ANYTHING (including dying in the process, if necessary) to let the minstrel be the last fellowship member standing, as minstrels are the only class (except for captains, but with a long cooldown) being able to rez fallen fellowship members. So, if you have any chance to let the minstrel be the last standing (and maybe feign death when out of agro range etc.), use it, before DFing. This way you have a chance of continuing on without all the other fellowship members having dread & having to get to the point you were when the wipe happened.

[Dirtball]

Actually, from a purely strategic point of view (not because I play a minstrel myself) it's best to do ANYTHING (including dying in the process, if necessary) to let the minstrel be the last fellowship member standing, as minstrels are the only class (except for captains, but with a long cooldown) being able to rez fallen fellowship members. So, if you have any chance to let the minstrel be the last standing (and maybe feign death when out of agro range etc.), use it, before DFing. This way you have a chance of continuing on without all the other fellowship members having dread & having to get to the point you were when the wipe happened.
/agreed

The problem is it can sometimes be difficult for the minstrel to survive alone unless thay have fast running shoes on or a nearby cliff to fall down (that they can hopefully get back up) :)

[Anasyn]

I've never really had many problems with aggro unless I'm with a lower level grd.
I use Precision stance routinely, which whilst it doesn't in itself add threat to attacks, means I miss less, and, with trait, regen focus during a fight even without using special abilities (fantastic for elite fights/needing to save power, can empty out your focus bar on a mob and switch to auto-attack and let the focus/power bars slowly refill themselves) which can make up the threat difference all by itself.
Infact I routinely fight with a guardian 2-3 levels lower than me with no problems, he knows he needs to be careful to build up that much more aggro because of difference, and I know I needs must be careful at times to not over-aggro.
Only time I've seriously pulled aggro without intent was in a pug not long ago with a lvl48 grd who simply could not hold aggro, (I was lvl44 at the time and after the first 2 deaths because he couldn't take mob back, I had to spend majority of fights using AA [still convinced that was a v.poor tank mind you])

[jinkyjonk]

hunters suck, big time

[nicbass]

thanks for that constructive criticism! If you always have problems with them - perhaps you need to look for a common denominator: you!

[rasengan]

You hunters don't let us do are jobs i tell you hunters to let me build up some aggro before you attack then what do you go and do attack about 3 mobs at once with that stupid rain of arrows then you run around in circle spammming like litte girls HEAL!!!!! AGGRO!!!so next time that happens is let them die, i had to take on about 3 or 4 mobs because of two hunters tht didn't listen then they don't even say thanks for saving there butts they go of and start complaining.............



PS: This not about all hunters just the two in the fricking fornost instance i have a level 40 hunter lol and a level 43 gurdian and plus some of us gurdians don't know how to do are job.

[HavFaith]

so what you are saying here is that people who dont play a class know the class better then the class player its self ?
comon dude
im not telling a tank how to tank how the hell should i tell a tank how to tank if i never even rolled a tank up to 50
see what i mean??

if a tank has rolled a hunter to 50 and he's rerolling a tank and then comes here and tell us how,what we could change to our game play he's verry welcome to do so cause he played the 2 classes

but if you are a tank and just complain cause you lose aggro to a hunter
then stay away from this forum i think we hunter players know our class better then any other class BECAUSE WE ARE ACTUALLY PLAYING ONE!!!


I got a Tank Lvl 50 & a Hunter lvl 47... Its so easy for hunters to lay off High aggro moves, until the mob/mobs are 75% Hp, and its easy 2 use the Tanks assist Button, sometimes it cant be helped takin aggro... thats when u do as little dps as u can, and run to the tanks pocket, so he can take aggro bk.

I use 2 take Aggro of tanks 2 see how easy it was, which it is, even on great tanks doing all Their aggro moves.

Hunters have it easy in instances..compared 2 tanks sooo plz stop sayin tanks are **** just cos u steal aggro of him!

[Chasak]

...sometimes it cant be helped takin aggro... thats when u do as little dps as u can, and run to the tanks pocket, so he can take aggro bk.
actually, that's when "Beneath Notice" comes handy

[nicbass]

The point is that, yes, there are bad hunters who tag mobs before the Tank has aggroed, but let's face there are bad tanks too. Our Kins main tank has had to tell several, high level tanks how to do there job properly as they haven't had a clue.

[Larsgo]

Not all hunters are bad :) I have played with about 10 who knew what they were doing and when they got the aggro they just stopped shooting and low and behold the aggro then moved :p Some are just sometimes a bit too trigger happy :)

[xwhitemousex]

If your reply in this thread is "Don't tell me how to play my class", then you lose at growing up.

If your reply in this thread is "It's the guardians job to keep aggro", then you lose at teamwork.

Teamwork is the key word.

Yes, the guardian should be working on keeping aggro on himself.
Yes, everyone else should be working on keeping aggro off himself.

If the guardian loses aggro, that's a dent in his pride as a good tank.
If the hunter gets aggro, that's a dent in his pride as a good dps class.

Ripping aggro from the tank is NOT how you measure wether you are doing good dps or not. Ripping aggro from the tank only marks you as a complete noob.

"Buuhuu but the tank sucked and can't keep aggro at all"

So freaking what?

It is YOUR job to know how much damage can I do without taking aggro from tank? If the tank sucks, that just means YOU need to stop spamming penetrating shots like a tool on autopilot. "Don't tell me how to play my class"??? Then LEARN how to play it BEFORE you join a group!

There are good tanks, and there are bad tanks. Always was, always will be. If you fail to understand that simple fact of life, then you lose at both life and the game.

A good hunter, in fact, a good player regardless of class, learns how to adapt his character into the thousands of different settings and group combinations you will find yourself in. If the tank can't hold aggro, you don't spam heals, or high damage shots. You adjust yourself. Yes that might mean it takes 7 seconds longer to kill each mob, and if you can't handle that, the solution is simple.. LEAVE THE GROUP!

Unfortunately for the tank, if he has problems holding aggro even if he uses all his skills (for instance there is a dps class of higher level in his group who doesn't know aggro from his own browneye) then there is pretty much nothing the tank can do other than to ask the dps classes to tone down their damage.

If you fail to respect that, you lose at teamplay.

Tanks take pride in holding aggro.

DPS classes should be ashamed to rip aggro. Yes, ashamed. It's a disgrace and a sense of "I suck" everytime a mob flakes off the tank and starts hitting me. It does happen, I'm not perfect. Sometimes I misclick an AE instead of a regular shot, or I overdo my damage because I'm not paying enough attention. It happens, but I let that shame remind me to pay attention better in the future, and I belive that improves my ability as a dps class significantly.

So sick and tired of hearing that "Dont tell me how to play" or "it's the tanks fault" excuses from DPS class players.

So I didn't play a guardian to level 50 in LoTRO. I did play a tank to end game in several other MMO's, as well as DPS classes, support classes and healers. I know how aggro works in an MMO and what the role of each different category of classes function inside an MMO, as do many, MANY others than me who has played MMO's for years.

So just because someone didn't play your specific class in one specific game to the same level as you are, doesn't mean they are clueless morons who have no experience or background to tell you how to play your sacred over-nuking class.

Bottom line is,

Everyone has a role within a group, so learn your class, learn how to function with other classes, and most importantly, learn how to freaking adapt yourself.

[Larsgo]

Here here White Mouse well said :) All said all ppl have a role to play and should know that role

[Traziz]

I found this funny.

See most hunters will say Guardians cry over not doing well and not being healed etc.

But the reason being is most hunters ive come across, would rather get the agro themselves, which means mobs hit them, they lose more health than a guardian, which means healers heal hunters more often to keep them alive, which in turn means guardians get less and healers run out of power in a short time.

Champions are not bad at holding agro, but even they have less health than a guardian, who would you want to tank?

Guardian with a shield handy skills and lots of health and can keep agro once gotten for a pretty long time. And doesnt require healing every 5 seconds.

Or a champion who has nice skills, but could easy die quickly if not kept in constant check and healed almost all the time.

[Ceriad]

<snipped>Bottom line is,

Everyone has a role within a group, so learn your class, learn how to function with other classes, and most importantly, learn how to freaking adapt yourself.

Very well put -

Its worth noting that being moderate in your spamming of damage is probably the easiest part of being a hunter (Which makes this thread so hilarious) - soloing elites of an equal or higher level and doing group quests WITHOUT a healer and tank is how you learn to play as it forces you to use all the tools in the chest.

[Kuku]

Everyone has a role within a group, so learn your class, learn how to function with other classes, and most importantly, learn how to freaking adapt yourself.

Good points, to which I will add: learn how to not take these things too seriously. The way people sometimes scream at others making mistakes or being misinformed, you'd think we were running a nuclear power plant here.

[Ueauvan]

actually you can get aggro easily as a hunter despite best efforts to avoid it and thats the same in every game ive played, d&do/eq/ffxi. and in reality i cant remember the last time when i had a guardian and a minstrel in a party. in most cases its been 2 champs and a minstrel or 2 captains and a guardian. then again since i hit 50 i cant remember when i last got a fellowship

[xwhitemousex]

The trick with getting fellowships is to not look for them, but to create them.

Works for me at least.

[Ueauvan]

agree totally but when you cant find a grd or mns in 60 mins but you can get 2 hnts and a chn you know you are onto a hiding to nothing. im used to making parties or duos/trios from ffxi/eq but after 60 mins and no viable way to heal/tank i frankly prefer to log off. i can solo a lot in all 3 games with my chars however only in lotro do i come across the problem of quests. trying to find ppl for bk 8 ch 5 who havent done it is hard, the incentive for ppl to repeat is zero.

[xwhitemousex]

the incentive for ppl to repeat is zero.

This is a big issue in the game in my opinion.

I joined a group going to Great Barrow thinking we would do all the quests there, which aren't many to begin with. I was collecting chalices as we went along, and we came to the room just before the northernmost boss that drops one of the key halves.

There were no mobs between us and the room with that boss, and I asked if we weren't going in there to get him. The response from everyone in the group except my friend that invited me was... why?

Then it turned out they only needed Sambrog, and didn't care to do the other quest bits, even if it took only 5 or 10 minutes to get the boss as we went past.

Things like that is really frustrating, and yes, I just left the group in the middle of the instance and DF'd out.

There is such a strong "Doing this quest and NO other quest" mentality going on in non-kinship groups.

People can be LFF for step two of a quest for hours, not joining a group that is starting out to do step 1 of the same quest line. Funny thing is, when that group that started on step 1, moves on to step 2 and 3, the person who needed step 2 is still LFF.

There needs to be more incentive for people to redo their quests so that people can get them done easier without the need to find people that are on the exact same step in the quest lines.

I know it's a word people don't really like, but when I've tried the quest-heavy, or rather quest-only progression style in LoTRO, I kinda miss the grind from other MMO.

[Ueauvan]

in reality i soloed most of 47 to 50 as i couldnt get parties or find a tank and/or healer. i refuse to search for 60 mins + either trying to make a party or join one. im achieving nothing and just wasting time

[Susprina]

HI,

Im a level 43 hunter and I thought id share some experience and insight.

Im the first to admit, I like soloing, I like running around in dangerous areas mining and cutting wood and killing animals for hides to level up tailor.

Obviously I tend to learn my own tactics for solo play. traps, fear, or on a lower con mob just nuke the bejezus out of it so that it drops dead at my feet.

However, my best friend plays a guardian, and we tend to duo a lot of quests.

This has taught me the wisdom of having the simple courtesy to pause, whilst he gets agro of the mob, or group of mobs, see which one is dropping in health fastest (ie he has the most agro on) and then let fly. Even in strength stance I rarely pull agro as long as I give him time to initially gain and build it.

If I do, the mob is once again dead at my feet at I tend to use the more powerful damaging and thus agro inducing abilities last.

My tactics change again in fellowships for instances. If they involve elites I use endurance stance. It reduces agro and power cost in long fights which is useful. Once again I wait for agro to be built before starting to let the arrows fly.

Unfortunately in pugs, people rarely stop to let me lay a trap, but I can live with that, because even when I do, the *insert class here* sees a stationary mob and runs straight for it to tank/dps. (i'd like to lay one in front of the minstrel too but it never happens)

On the rare occasions I do pull agro, I find that my beneath notice is not on cooldown and I can pop that and watch the mob run to the tank.

I either slow my attacks for a bit, or possibly change targets to another mob with low health that I have no agro on to make sure I dont pull agro of the original mob again.

Rarely am I blessed with a pug that has a main assist. (all attempts by me to explain the concept are everyone agreeing its a great idea, before all charging attacking different mobs)

I love grouping with burglars and loremasters, those guys and their utilities make battles so much easier. Kudos to you guys.

I rarely use rain of arrows as its my darkest sin (early especially in groups with crowd controlling classes like burgs and Lore masters). Sure its nice to see the big numbers on lots of mobs head. But when the riddled /mezzed mob breaks and the blinded flash mobs mez breaks. I feel like a ret*rd and others in the group are no doubt agreeing with me.


I do notice that as the toon graphics are small, (I keep my camera panned out as far as possible so that I can maintain an overall view of the battlefield) sometimes I don't see the mezzed mobs for what they are and unwittingly tab onto it and let loose.

I am the first to apologise to my group and hold my hand up and say my bad. I then resolve to pay more attention to the battle and not make the same mistake again or in the future. (repeated mistakes with this, and also tabbing to the next group we arent fighting, and having an autoshot pull that group, have lead me to turn off autoshot in the combat options.)


I recognise that I still have a lot to learn in this game and constantly read forums in order to strive to improve myself for both fellowship and solo play.

I welcome constructive advice from people on forums and from my kin and pug fellowships.

I realise that this has been a bit of a ramble but overall, I feel that you will see more hunters that are poorly played because we are one of the more popular classes. More of that class even with the same proportion of idiots as other classes, simply means more idiots of that class in the game which is why is so visible.

It takes very little skill to play a hunter. It takes patience and cunning, and understanding of the class to play one very well.

I think too few hunters out there have the time or the inclination to work out how to be the be a team player. (additionally those probably dont read forums either so this might be a moot point/post)

Having said that, I have seen plenty of other classes played poorly too. Guardians that think they only have to tank one mob or the biggest mob in the group, leaving the others to go right for the minstrel. Champs that aoe their hearts out and need heavy healing to keep alive, resulting in the minstrel overhealing and then subsequently dying.

Anyways, regardless best of luck to you all in your journeys in middle earth.

Kind regards,

Susprina

Hopefully not one of the....
"pew pew lazers zomfgosh I am l33t l3g0las wif bow, oh god i've got agro again im gonna die"

[xwhitemousex]

This has taught me the wisdom of having the simple courtesy to pause, whilst he gets agro of the mob, or group of mobs, see which one is dropping in health fastest (ie he has the most agro on) and then let fly.

There is a much easier way to assist that I've seen not many are aware off.

Firstly, go to the Options -> Combat Options and tick the "Enable skill target forwarding" and "Show the vitals of your selections target"

This will display the health bar of the character/NPC that your target (the guardian) is targetting.

Next, keep your guardian as your target, and attack him. That will automatically redirect your attacks and arrows onto whatever he is attacking.

It's an assist method they introduced in EverQuest2 (at least that was where I first experienced it) and it was commonly called "attacking through" your target.

Benefit is that you don't have to use an assist key, or keep switching targets when the tank is, since you'll always attack whatever he is attacking when you have him as your target.

The drawback is, you can't shoot at anything if he has another player, or nothing, targetted. This makes alot of people just go back to targetting the NPC itself and start attacking again.

Learn to use the "attack through" though, since it saves you, your fellowship, and your tank from alot of aggro ripping nonsense.

Hopefully you all understand what I was trying to explain...

[Kuku]

Nice tip! I didn't know that, but it sounds very useful.

Say, you are not one of those people who, you know..., reads manuals?!

[xwhitemousex]

Naah, I don't read manuals too much aside from reading up on things like the crafting vocations and such.

I'm too used to the "attack through" mode in EQ2 so I had to investigate and figure out if it was doable in LOTRO too, which it was after a few option clicks.

The main drawback for me with the "attack through" in LoTRO is not being able to see wether the target is an elite or yard trash. Then again, I try to trust the judgement of the Guardian as to what mobs to eliminate first.

Whenever I play a tank though, my kill order starts on the weakest, then the toughest last. I know alot will argue about that, but after 7 years of tanking in MMO's, I've found this tactic to work best in general. Some encounters will of course be different, but as a general rule, you go from weakest to strongest.

[Delbo]

Be warned of one major drawback when firing through another member of the fellowship - some players tab through their targets, and may select a stunned or non-aggro'd mob briefly before tabbing on. However, it the hunter lets loose when that particular target is selected you end up firing on something no one really wanted.

So if you do choose to attack through another player, find out how they select their targets otherwise that group of 3 sleeping elite trolls might join the party and you'll get some serious hunter bashing... :D

[Osric]

I'm here from a PnPer Tolkien geek background, not as an experienced MMOGer, and as an E(SAK) type I'm loving learning the ropes. I welcomed the L2P thread title as I was sure there was more to find out, but perhaps now I know the heat that tends to come with it, I'll be forewarned in future.

Anyway, I'm usually /RP on and talkative, but no one's ever had any of these 'friendly chats' with me in-game... Maybe my chars at 28/25/19 are not spending much time in the places where the knowledgeable players are. Or maybe no one who's habitually high level even expects 'low level' types to listen.

So I've read this whole thread (and some related ones), repetitions and all, and the one thing that's been mentioned but perhaps needs more emphasis here for completeness sake seems to be the distinction between Tank and Main Assist.... Options -> Combat Options -> "Enable skill target forwarding"
...
Next, keep your guardian as your target, and attack him. That will automatically redirect your attacks and arrows onto whatever he is attacking.I agree! I loved it when I discovered what this function did (having not been alerted to it at all in the manual <ahem>).

You can also use it to target the NPC on an escort quest, so that whatever the idiot does, you're picking mobs off him as fast as possible -- either drawing their aggro or putting them down.

But if you keep the Main Tank (MT) targetted, it sounds like you may find your attacks going all over the place as he keeps shifting targets to keep them all attacking him. That's his primary job, but if everyone's attacking through him, the damage is getting shared out and none of the mobs are going down.

If you designate another Fellow, e.g. Champ/Capn/2nd Guardian as your Main Assist (MA), and everything attacks through him in what I've heard called focussed fire (FF), then the Fellowship concentrates on one mob at a time and they each in turn disappear in sprays of blood. Each time one goes down the mobs' firepower is reduced and the fight just gets easier.

Or is there still more to it?
If so, feel free to diss me for a n00b if you like, as long as you actually add some explanation. ;)

And the L2P lesson I wanted to find out about was this:
Like other posters, I always play panned right back for max visibility. But I get badly messed up in tighter confines where that view isn't available. What are the 'coping strategies'?

Thanks in advance,
--Os.