Hunters, Fellowships & Managing Agro

[Mizz]

With the popularity of the hunter class it has come to my attention that many of you hunters know very little of how agro works in fellowships. So heres a couple helpful things from a guardian that will make mine and other guardians life a lot less stressful.

You, the hunter

As a hunter you are one of the highest agro generating classes in lotro, your a high damage dealing class and if you go blindly into a fight you will grab agro and possibly get yourself or others killed. The main thing you should do to avoid a majority of issues is to make sure your attacking the same target as the tank, this will allow you to deal maximal damage and keep the guardian control over the fight.

So how do guardians manage agro and why should I care?

A guardian mainly concentrates building up agro on a single target, along with minor aoe agro on nearby targets. This requires that the tanks is constantly being hit by as many targets as possible, firstly this allows the tank to trigger his aoe taunt from blocking, secondly it keeps building up agro on the targets due to the damage they cause to the guardian.

This constant increase of agro from taking damage and taunting allows other classes to do their jobs. Melee classes like Champions, Burglars and Captains can deal their damage with little to none risk of getting agro. The ministrel can heal morale of the guardian with very little risk as well. Lore Masters and Hunters should also have very little problem dealing out their single target attacks on the tanks main target.

Because the guardian deals out around 75% of his taunt skills on a single target, the cycle of agro management is a very fragile process. Whenever someone else grabs agro from the guardian, it means the guardians chances of generating agro is reduced and in worst case scenario he/she has to change his targets to regain control of the fight. If another melee class gets agro, its often taken back in matter of seconds due to the close proximity of the guardian and his constant flow of aoe taunting skills. However when a long range class like a Hunter, Ministrel or a Lore Master grabs agro, it could mean the whole cycle of agro generation is destroyed because the guardian has to move to regain agro of the rampant monster. This is one of the main reasons for people dying in fellowships and its your responsibility as a damage dealer to make sure your not contributing to the problem.

What can I do to avoid getting agro?

Luckily it takes very little from you as a hunter to manage your agro generation if the guardian in your fellowship has any clue on how to tank. (which is a discussion for a whole different thread).

Heres a few helpful insights that will keep the frustration level of the guardian down to minimal, it takes very little effort from you as a hunter and just requires a little patience. In return your free to dish out as much damage as you possible can. A fair trade off?

1. Dont use Strength Stance in fellowships, the 15% increased damage is not worth the risks and annoyances caused by getting agro. As a hunter in a fellowship your main roles are dealing damage and managing your agro. There are some hunters who standby believing that agro managment is not the problem of a hunter but the job of a guardian, these people are ignorant jerks and should be educated on how agro generation works. Strength Stance is a solo skill, treat it as such. Endurance Stance is the recommended stance to be used in fellowships, but if you feel your not generating far to much agro you may experiment with using Precision Stance.

2. Dont pull targets at start of fights, let the guardian (or other designated tank class of the fellowship) pull mobs and let them get in a few hits before you dish out your highest damage skill. If your really impatient, at least start of with an attack that decreases movement speed of the target. This allows the guardian to taunt it while its heading towards you due to the agro you caused. But preferably wait a few seconds till the tank has control of the target before getting into the fight, you can use Focus or place a trap during this time which is far more useful for you and the fellowship in overal! The Focus allows you to dish out damage once the tank has agro and the trap acts as an additional safety net between the melee classes and ranged classes incase agro is lost for whatever reason.

3. Dont use your AOE attacks at the beginning of a fight, use them the in mid/end of a fight, that way chances that youll grab agro is minimal.

4. At higher levels make good use of your agro reducing skills, in hard fights these can be extremly helpful in reducing your agro generation. You dont want to be responsible for having a drake flying rampart shooting fireballs at the ministrel. Staying alive and managing agro is ALWAYS a higher priority than dealing damage!

Hope any of the above was helpful to any of you new to the class.

[davejm]

Very useful post, good stuff mate. Glad to see that I've got the right end of the stick with much of this stuff, as it's kinda how I saw things too, without actually knowing for sure.

[F6Knight]

pretty useful stuff aside from 1 point: i m sick and tired of people yelling that hunters should not use strenght stance.
a hunter is a nuker: use strenght stance ALL THE TIME

the problem is not hunters using strenght stance but a combination of
a) guardians not tanking properly
and
b) hunters not knowing HOW to properly use strenght stance

you dont nuke from the moment the guardian starts tanking
give him a few seconds to build agro. then go ahead and do your thing
99% of the time i dont pull agro away from the guardian in my group (even works with guardians up to 2 lvls below me)

[Caelin]

From a minstrels point of view, I would like to add a little bit here.

If you do happen to get aggro, do not panick and start to run away. We need you to stand still in order to heal you :)

This holds true for all classes, not just hunters, but the last few fellowships I have been in, it is the hunters that tend to get unwanted aggro, and run around in a failed attempt to get rid of it again.

As a minstrel I try to keep everyone alive. My main focus is on the main tank, but if others get unwanted aggro I try to keep them alive long enough for the main tank to get aggro back. So please stand still, ok? I know it hurts, but believe me, you will be glad you did. Not only can a minstrel heal you, but the Guardian can get aggro back a lot easier, when he does not have to run around trying to catch you.

[Bezayne]

I'd like add to a bit to the minstrel pov here. Namely the bit around running around - you can run and get heals, no problem. As long as you stay in range and in line of sight to the minstrel, you can be healed. But - and a big but - running around more often than not will make you draw more adds and thus endangering the whole group. Plus the aforementioned problems of a guardian who needs to run after you trying to get that mob off you.

My suggestion (I play both a minstrel and a hunter) - after getting aggro, if you can take a few hits, stand still and give others in your group time to react and help you out. If you are utterly convinced you need to run - use the speed debuff melee attack first, so the mob indeed runs slower than you, and then run in circles around the minstrel / guardian. Do not run away like a headless chicken!

Using the above method my hunter has "offtanked" on occasion, kiting an add around so other ranged dps could kill it or the tank grab it back once he has a hand free.

[chabio]

A very good post from the OP, Caelin and Bezayne. Since I usually Solo, it is good to be primed on how a guardian and Minstrel would like us to act in a fellowship.

I understood all that you had said and for the majority, agree with it.

However I would still use Strength stance when needed. Mainly to pull aggro off a Minstrel or someone who was taking a beating. A Guardian can take a lot of abuse, but if he was struggling with multiple mobs.. I would not hesitate pulling a single mob off him, if I thought I could handle it. It's not too dissimiliar to DAOC, running around is a selfish act which impedes the fellowship whilst heading to the tank or standing your ground is the better option.

But some useful posts none the less.. thank you for popping over.

[Mizz]

pretty useful stuff aside from 1 point: i m sick and tired of people yelling that hunters should not use strenght stance.
a hunter is a nuker: use strenght stance ALL THE TIME

the problem is not hunters using strenght stance but a combination of
a) guardians not tanking properly
and
b) hunters not knowing HOW to properly use strenght stance

you dont nuke from the moment the guardian starts tanking
give him a few seconds to build agro. then go ahead and do your thing
99% of the time i dont pull agro away from the guardian in my group (even works with guardians up to 2 lvls below me)

This is one of my bigger issues with hunters. The use of Strength Stance comes down to several factors:

* level differences between you and the guardian, if your higher level than the guardian, be very careful of using Strength Stance.
* Level of the monsters, monsters higher live than the guardian will agro others more easily
* amount of +agro traits the guardian has. A guardian with several +agro traits will be more effective in canceling out the additional agro generated from your Strength Stance. Infact if the guardian has enhanced Protection, ask him to place it on you (which he should, unless perhaps if theres a high agro-magnent ministrel), this will even out the agro generated by your Strength Stance.

Still if you noticed grabbing agro regulary, please do the guardian a favour and switch to another stance. Tanking is a very taxing job and the extra 15% damage you do is not worth the extra work of having to run around chasing run away agro.

Running bytheway is another issue, never ever run around like a headless chicken, it just makes things even more confusing. If your in a desperate situation dealing with your grabbed agro, use whatever skills you have to stay alive untill the guardian (or another melee, hey captains?) can help you out.

[TheFloyd]

Thanks for all the tips! I've managed to keep myself fairly well alive so far but now and again there have been times when I wondered if I was doing anything wrong.

[zimoo]

Nice posts. I have recently tried to do what you said while in fellowships (since a few weeks ago) and things seem much more calm. I wait a few seconds at the start, maybe firing off a few auto-attacks before sending in all my swift bows and penetrating hits :p

Since I started doing this my repair bills have gone down by an incredible amount and our groups always seem to do better (although you could argue it's just because higher-level players understand their classes more). I still notice some agro-magnet hunters in my groups though, who insist on drawing the toughest enemy to themselves then complaining when they die. It's so easy to spot one of these as a fellow hunter, as I can just compare my power levels to theres (theres is normally empty, I'm still there with half left and doing good damage etc).

Until recently I was one of the strength-stance arrow-raining hunters this topic is designed to eliminate, but I must says it's actually more enjoyable how I'm playing now.

[Instakiller]

pretty useful stuff aside from 1 point: i m sick and tired of people yelling that hunters should not use strenght stance.
a hunter is a nuker: use strenght stance ALL THE TIME

the problem is not hunters using strenght stance but a combination of
a) guardians not tanking properly
and
b) hunters not knowing HOW to properly use strenght stance

you dont nuke from the moment the guardian starts tanking
give him a few seconds to build agro. then go ahead and do your thing
99% of the time i dont pull agro away from the guardian in my group (even works with guardians up to 2 lvls below me)

dude ONLY use str stance in the middle of the fight towards the end even.
Never start a fight in fellowship with str stance unless you have to pull.
Use str stance and use your quick shot, the str stance anables your speed reduce on your quick shot.
After you pulled, change stance again untill your REALY sure the tank has full control of his fight, then switch to str stance again...thats how you should play YOUR hunter and you will be known verry quick as a good hunter.
Tanks will remeber you and ask you again in the future trust me.
i hope this willhelp allot of hunters out there

[Skamander]

Ummm... Sorry, I'm speaking here as a complete beginner. I think I can pretty well guess what Agro means from the context of the posts, but could somebody actually define it for me in game context? Humble thanks in advance.

[Instakiller]

Ummm... Sorry, I'm speaking here as a complete beginner. I think I can pretty well guess what Agro means from the context of the posts, but could somebody actually define it for me in game context? Humble thanks in advance.
well if you have ever been in a group "fellowship" you know a tank is recuired to get hold of the mobs and keep the mobs on him so that everyone else can give them hell on earth without gettin killed by those mobs cause they stick on the tank like a horsefly on a dump.
BUT if you brake this tanking and mobs will come for you cause you OVEr agro the tanks agro you will be killed most of the time and you might kill other party members aswell cause you broke the tanks agro now the tank is gonne have a hard time gettin the agro back from those wondering mobs
hope that explains allot to you ?

[Skamander]

hope that explains allot to you ?

Yes, many thanks!

[Crazalus]

What happens when there are no tanks in the Fellowship?


Weekdays, during working hours, it's very hard (if not almost impossible) to get a properly balanced Fellowship together. I think the best I've been able to join was 2 Minstrels, 2 Hunters and a Burglar. (actually a pretty good team/mix... if you use your heads properly)

Tankless Fellowships need some very different techniques for managing the agro... anyone feel up to drawing up a set of pointers for this?

[Skamander]

it's very hard (if not almost impossible) to get a properly balanced Fellowship together

Good point. I've been in about ten or a dozen Fellowships by the time I reached level 14, and NONE of them included a tank. It seems they may actually be rarer than healers. Any statistics known?

[MadCat]

What happens when there are no tanks in the Fellowship?


Weekdays, during working hours, it's very hard (if not almost impossible) to get a properly balanced Fellowship together. I think the best I've been able to join was 2 Minstrels, 2 Hunters and a Burglar. (actually a pretty good team/mix... if you use your heads properly)

Tankless Fellowships need some very different techniques for managing the agro... anyone feel up to drawing up a set of pointers for this?

The only pointer I have is if you have multiple hunters, have them play aggro ping-pong. One's in strength stance, the other in precision. Once the person in strength stance has been beaten on for a bit, have him/her switch to precision and only use melee auto-attacks, while the other switches to strength stance and starts doing much damage.

Rinse, repeat. In the above group you wouldn't even have to switch, you could just go both to strength stance and have a minstrel 'each' that heals you. The burglar in the meantime can do the sneaky backstab thing, and open up some conjunctions to make things go easier.

I've done a quest once (I think it was in the great barrows even), with 3 hunters and 3 champions in the group, no healer, but just damage dealers.

It worked quite well, there were a few unfortunate deaths, but in the end we could take down multiple elites and come out on top purely due to the insane damage that was dished out.

It seems to me that LOTRO hasn't got that "perfect" or "holy trinity" group thing going for it; you don't need a tank, minstrel, lore-master and 3 randoms, you can just get together and do it anyway, you just have to use your head and do it differently than you would if there was a tank + healer present.

[Belechael]

It seems to me that LOTRO hasn't got that "perfect" or "holy trinity" group thing going for it; you don't need a tank, minstrel, lore-master and 3 randoms, you can just get together and do it anyway, you just have to use your head and do it differently than you would if there was a tank + healer present.

Excellent point and very true.

My regular team consists of a Guardian, a Captain, a Champion, a Burglar and a Hunter. We must improvise some times, but the work gets done.

This is a very good article that everyone should read. It took me a lot of time and help from my friends to explain all these to me, and they work, albeit a little differently in every group.

[Jalanteriel]

Form my own personal experience. I almost always use Endurance stance. this is partly due to the fact that most fellowships I group in generally have tanks that are lower level than me, which means I have to control my damage a fair bit. I do move to precision stance on tougher monsters (higher level) and only rarely go to strength and almost only towards the end of a fight on a tough end boss.

Even with the Endurance stance and the Beaneath notice skill (60% thread reduction) I have accidentally pulled mob away from the tank. When this happens it's a good idea to run towards the tank to save little precious seconds for him having to run that little bit further to get to you. From there, stand your ground and pray he takes aggro off. If it gets hairy you can always try and pop Eldar's grace.

Ranged adds
These can be problematic to both tanks and healers especially if there are more. Generally a skilled burglar would be able to confuse the target. In the event that one doesn't or it fails, we make the best alternative tank for it, taking the pressure off the healer and to a certain degree the tank.

Offtanking/Range position
Fighting from a distance gives us the added advantage of having a bigger scope of the battle. that this chance to be aware of your surroundings, warning of patrols or when fellow memebers are backing into a bad spot. We are also in a good position to notice any unwanted attention on the healer should a mob suddenly pull away from the tank. A good hunter should always be aware of the overall battle and react accordingly.

No tanks in a fellowship
This can get quite fun when you're not against elite mobs. It's usually a game of ping pong if you have 2 hunters or more as Madcat mentioned. The other trick is to use whatever fear/stun ability any in your fellowship has. If either technique goes well, with practise, you can down most mobs without having to take much damage. Though in the past I have seen plenty of mobs bugging out and returning back to their spot. The geist of a tankless fellowship is basically to keep the damage received down by keep the monster at range or feared/stun as much as possible. Though in cases where there are multiple targets this is virtually impossible to achieve except maybe for each person to be assigned different targets to tank with and then assisting one target after another. This focuses damage on one mob after another, so they are killed fast, while simultaneously spreading the damage of the mobs between all the players rather than all on one where in more likelihood die from too much damage or too short a time to heal realiably.

Anyway, there's my 2 cents off the top of my head, apologies if it seems a bit longwinded. :o

[F6Knight]

kiting with multiple hunters is pretty easy if you use your heads

i was in a 'retake weathertop' group once without a guardian or mistrel
we had 3 hunters, 2 champions and a captain
everyone was lower lvl than the boss and troll at the end (except me. think i was about equal lvl to the bosses back then)
we got up to the troll which we couldnt kill because he would bug and go all confused whenever the top agro player wasnt in his melee range.
if he wasnt bugged then we would have finished it.

simply have all hunters in strenght stance for the slow efffect on quick shot
then have one hunter pull agro of a boss (with swift bow + penetrating shot for max agro). then the other hunters only use auto attack and reapply a quick shot slow every 8-9 seconds (lasts 10s). this way the boss stays slowed and keeps getting some normal dmg while he s chasing a hunter that he can never reach (use your highest lvl hunter as the kiter).
once the boss agro's one of the dps'ing hunters, simply have the kiting hunter do another swift bow + penetrating shot to regain agro.
any other class can go in and do dmg as long as they stick to auto attacks. the agro must rotate between the hunters.

the above trick works on just about any npc that isnt slow immune or has a ranged attack.

[Ydyp]

Why do you always see a tanking guide in those DD forums for almost each mmorpg I played.

Oh and if you get aggro and feel the urge to run around, then run towards the tank and stand next to him/her. Until the aggro is grabbed back, also stop pushing those high damage button skills.

[Finve]

great advice.... If I was an op I would sticky this!

[Crystil]

Nice thread, with lots of useful comments. The main thing is the 2 key principles:
1. Let the Tank take a beating - thats what he is there for.
2. Patience - Don't Overnuke.

Remember as you build up traits etc plus your corresponding threat and damage may differ a little from others.

Personally I'm really enjoying being a hunter. In previous MMOs I was mostly MT and the guy getting kicked. I lose track of the number of times I had to say to the group "if u get aggro'd run close TO me (MT), not way from me"

But lets face it - a random pickup group will never be quite as reliable as a team that plays together more often. But hey - life deals wild cards - enjoy - dont groan.

24 Hunter / Evernight

[Crazalus]

Nice thread, with lots of useful comments. The main thing is the 2 key principles:
1. Let the Tank take a beating - thats what he is there for.
2. Patience - Don't Overnuke.
Yep... just about the best points in it.

Well, except when you find yourself in the position of being the Tank... that's when Overnuking becomes pretty important.(3 Hunters, Minstrel and LoreMaster... much fun, and few mobs even getting a swing at us :) )
Remember as you build up traits etc plus your corresponding threat and damage may differ a little from others.Too true... and you need to consider the level differences as well.

One problem I ran into a while ago... just after I'd finished the level 30 Hunter quest, I found that my traits, weapons and level meant just 1 nuke drew agro away from any Tank I was Fellowed with. (ok, so I'm in a mainly Solo build with this Hunter)
Thanks to there being a 6 level gap between me and the Tanks, I got stuck in the position of being unable to do any real damage until the last few seconds... truely the most frustrating experience any Hunter can suffer.But lets face it - a random pickup group will never be quite as reliable as a team that plays together more often. But hey - life deals wild cards - enjoy - dont groan.
Indeed... in fact, playing with the same group a lot makes the quests/adventures become somewhat "sameish"

It's the wild-card groupings that are all too often the most exciting... and challenging.

[Ueauvan]

there are times when intentionally pulling aggro is required, ie you are first to spot an add spawn and aggro the minstrel, i use str stance and quick shot to snare the mob (thinking the minstrel will fear it) splat it as much as poss to ensure im above healer on hate list, by the time i need help or the mob fear ends a champ captain or guardian is there to take aggro from me

[Fermos]

sticky this guide :)

[Evendar Stormrider]

pretty useful stuff aside from 1 point: i m sick and tired of people yelling that hunters should not use strenght stance.
a hunter is a nuker: use strenght stance ALL THE TIME

the problem is not hunters using strenght stance but a combination of
a) guardians not tanking properly
and
b) hunters not knowing HOW to properly use strenght stance

you dont nuke from the moment the guardian starts tanking
give him a few seconds to build agro. then go ahead and do your thing
99% of the time i dont pull agro away from the guardian in my group (even works with guardians up to 2 lvls below me)

No dude, seriously strength stance generates extra aggro as standard and activates your snares. It is clearly intended as and best used as a soloing tactic. It has no place in a group.

If you want to maximise your damage in a group, equip your +critical traits and gear and use precision stance - but only if you're sure the group can keep a lid on the aggro you're doing. This is especially important if you're higher level than your tank.

I've not done the math for LotRO but it's a relatively safe assumption that critical damage will work out more effective than a flat increase anyway.

[Evendar Stormrider]

Another consideration for a hunter is chaff-removal.

That boss that has his 3 non-elite helpers that anywhere else you would take out solo no trouble... you dont even have to move to intercept those, if you get aggro off it you're probably capable of killing it in straight melee anyway. If you can reduce superfluous targets with a few arrows and reduce the work the tank has to do then all the better.

These are usually my primary targets for any encounter. The weak non-elites that I know I can kill in 10 seconds flat.

[MadCat]

Another consideration for a hunter is chaff-removal.

That boss that has his 3 non-elite helpers that anywhere else you would take out solo no trouble... you dont even have to move to intercept those, if you get aggro off it you're probably capable of killing it in straight melee anyway. If you can reduce superfluous targets with a few arrows and reduce the work the tank has to do then all the better.

These are usually my primary targets for any encounter. The weak non-elites that I know I can kill in 10 seconds flat.

Good point, I do this too whenever an Elite comes out with 2 or 3 non-elites, I generally work on them and keep an eye on whatever healer we have present at that time, and then go on to the Elite -- by which time, if all goes well, the tank already has so much aggro you can go straight to doing as much damage as you can dish out and not have to worry about getting a rather angry Elite mob making a beeline for you wanting to stomp your guts out.

[Erlindur]

At this point, I would like to recommend a couple of good practice runs for all fellow hunters.

First one is the troll area southeast of Ost Guruth, in the lone lands. There is a race/class trait for dwarf/guardians (not sure which combination, maybe someone could clarify) there, so it is easy to pick up a tank and go there. Just the two of you can take any troll in the area and it is ideal for learning to manage your damage output without stealing aggro. Even if you fail it is easy to practice ways to return the aggro back to the tank without real risk. It is a typical 2 vs 1 Elite fight. You can even try going there with tanks bellow, higher or same level as you, just to see how it goes.

Second one is north of there, the ruins east of Ost Guruth. There is also a trait plus an epic quest (book2 chapter 3) there for killing the elite undeads, so it is generaly easy to find people there as well. It is the typical 1 Elite+several non elite adds fight, in closed/open area (in and out of the ruins), with random respawns on the rear line once you get inside. It is ideal for testing various group combinations and strategies.

Both of them are lvl 25+

[Aegorras]

First of all great thread. I'm kind of new to these kind of games and have been soloing most of the time. I figured out much of this agro management (seems a bit like anger management)in the last couple of days. This post really helps to confirm a couple of my thoughts.

I found it difficult at first to figure out hich target the tank was on when there are big mobs attcking te fellowship. I found in the options the option to skill forward which allows you to select the tank as target and when you execute a skill the skill is executed on the tanks target. I found this very helpfull in making sure i didn't have the wrong target and get an aggro.

[Eelis Kiy]

Found this thread really useful, thanks.

/Vote stickeh!

[Aegorras]

/vote make this sticky

[Ydyp]

Another consideration for a hunter is chaff-removal.

That boss that has his 3 non-elite helpers that anywhere else you would take out solo no trouble... you dont even have to move to intercept those, if you get aggro off it you're probably capable of killing it in straight melee anyway. If you can reduce superfluous targets with a few arrows and reduce the work the tank has to do then all the better.

These are usually my primary targets for any encounter. The weak non-elites that I know I can kill in 10 seconds flat.
And I'm sure the captain in your fellowship will love you for that as well ;)

[Squidgoggulas]

I really like this post and this discussion and apart from reiterating the - "run close to tank if you get aggro" which seems to ring true in any mmo Iv'e played - I'd like to make another point:

If at all possible communicate with your group members - the tank - the minstrel and try to make them understand what you do and why.

And I know that in some groups this is all but impossible - and some people just won't listen - but when you can - try to make others understand our class and what we can do - to make the most use of our abilities. Don't take for granted that others know about our slow, our traps and whatever else we are able to do. And in return if they try to teach you about their class - listen. In the end the more oyu know about what others can do and the more that others know about your abilities - the better tactics you can try to come up with to fully maximize any groups potential.

Take the instance of peeling off non-elites from the tank. Now if the tank knows about this tactic and the ministrel is aware that you are doing it on purpose - then it is a good tactic - it saves the tank some damage and lets him build aggro on the main mob so that you can come in guns blazing later in the fight. If the tank/minstrel are unaware of this (and I've read guardian comments about disliking this tactic) they will probably have kittens - the guardian will try to regain aggro maybe losing control over the situation as a whole) and you've split the minstrels attention because suddenly your health is going down. So it's better to make your group mates understand what you are trying to do - educate others about our class.

Of course if you communicate your skills and tactics you sometimes have to face the possibility that others will tell you not to use certain tactics and maximize your potential - they might not be skilled enough or feel equipped to handle it or they might just want to feel like they are more knowledgable or are in charge of their PUG. It's a bitter pill sometimes but I would say swallow it or find bettter people to group with. But show them that not only do you know how to play your class - you also know how to be a team player (or in this case a fellowship player ;)). A lot of very good hunters out there suffer from the bad reputation of a few bad apples and I for one feel that it is our duty towards all our fellow hunters to show how good a class hunter really is and that the persons behind the hunters are good people too.

Now - of course that's just my opinion - I could be wrong :)

[Teriodin]

HUnters have nothing to prove and should stop apologising to these other classes.

I've played in groups with tanks who wouldn't know what threat management was if it bit them on the bum. I've also played with a Mincer that was a complete waste of space and caused more trouble than it was worth.

We Hunters learn to play our class the way it should be played, the other classes can do us the honour of making an effort with theirs instead of blaming the hunter when they can't hold aggro and the Hunter isn't even using specials (yes, that happened) or pulling when they're supposed to be the Healer (also happened - see somewhat humourous post about it...)

Hunters - hold your heads up high and stop grovelling to Grauniads and Mincers - you know it makes sense :D

[Medazza]

Hmm, Satine.. Why is this not yet a sticky ? :D

[Falodor]

From a minstrels point of view, I would like to add a little bit here.

If you do happen to get aggro, do not panick and start to run away. We need you to stand still in order to heal you :)

This holds true for all classes, not just hunters, but the last few fellowships I have been in, it is the hunters that tend to get unwanted aggro, and run around in a failed attempt to get rid of it again.

As a minstrel I try to keep everyone alive. My main focus is on the main tank, but if others get unwanted aggro I try to keep them alive long enough for the main tank to get aggro back. So please stand still, ok? I know it hurts, but believe me, you will be glad you did. Not only can a minstrel heal you, but the Guardian can get aggro back a lot easier, when he does not have to run around trying to catch you.
well seeing as you dont have to stand still as a minstrel when throwing your ballads you can kit away slowly until the enemy gets near and slightly turn forward to increase your distance from the enemy while your ballads recharge, maybe you could run for a moment then turn back and heal

[habanaman]

If you know so much about being a hunter, then how come have you stated that it's not acceptable to use strength stance in a fellowship, but yet if the hunter is itching to get off a first shot, it should at least be one that reduces the mobs movement speed.
I've got two shots which do this. The first, Quick shot, only works off the strength stance, which according to yourself is not acceptable in a fellowship. The second is my barbed arrow, which causes quite a lot of aggro.
I agree that being a high dps class means that hunters should manage their aggro. However, being a new game as it is, there are many new hunters out there who don't realise this, and guardians reputations for throwing hissy fits, and being know-it-all tyrants don't help. I was talking to a young hunter the other day, lvl 21, who was very down because he kept getting blamed by MTs for drawing too much aggro, and subsequently causing party wipes. I asked him why he hadn't enquired as to what he's doing wrong he replied that the guardian's either sulk, ignoring everybody, or fly into tantrums, hurl insults, accusing all and sundry of spoiling their fight. I had to agree, I've seen this too often myself. For example, numerous times has a tank launched into battle with no warning whilst standing right beside me, where i can't effectively cover him or myself, and then call me all the names under the sun for standing in the wrong place.
I explained some of the nuances of being a high dps'er in a fellowship, and how he could reduce his chances of pulling aggro from the tanks. It didn't take very long, but he went away more confident he'd avoid a tongue lashing from guardians in the future.
Although I admit I've yet to play a guardian on lotro, I've plenty of experience from other worlds, and in those roles aggro wasn't an inconvenience brought about by "noob" dps'ers, It was my domain that i had to manage. I play mostly with PUG's so I was very often coming across dps'ers, especially during the formative levels, who didn't realise, and had never been told, that they should adjust their playstyle when in a group. Therefore, since aggro management is the tanks responsibility, I would calmly and coherently explain the issue with anyone whom i thought was pulling aggro too much, avoiding calling them retards, morons, noobs, etc. And it seemed to work towards more effective, and harmonious questing. I can never understand many guardian's attitudes. Aggro is you're job, deal with it, but in a pro-active manner, leave the hissy fits at home. If you don't want to deal with managing the aggro of a fellowship, then you should re-think your choice of class. As a hunter, getting the balance of dps output/aggro management in a group can be quite tricky. Moreso, when you quest mainly with PUGs, or are built for soloing ( many solo hunters are forced to fellow for the epic instances, not realising the devastation their build will cause). We are the Nukers after all, concerned with dealing high damage. If a tank can't hold aggro from me, i'm usually quite understanding and will tone it down. But I don't appreciate being belittled and insulted, for doing what is after all my role in a fellowship, dealing damage. I've quested with tanks who could hold aggro whilst I'm in Strength stance all day long, and those who struggle when I'm in endurance and using no skills. I wouldn't dare try to tell him how to do his job though. He's a guardian, he'd bite my head off, then go off and huff for the rest of the instance!

[Belechael]

I'd also like this to get a sticky. Plenty of important and good advice to just let it go with the trash.

[Arrgur]

Good thread. Bump for us newer players.

[Caldar]

Great thread this - definitely worth a sticky..

Speaking as someone who's main is a Guardian, and who's primary alt is a hunter, I'm well aware of both sides of the equation.. I've found most hunters respond well to being asked to switch to endurance or precision stance - I only get snippy when they start sulking/refusing.. ;)
I am a bit of a control-freak when I'm tanking (most tanks are ;)), but that's because - if you like - the tank is the conductor of the fight. Since we're taking the beating to allow the rest of the party some breathing space, we need to be able to direct the order of battle, which mobs are going to be stunned etc etc.. When this works well you get a fellowship working like a well-oiled machine (indeed, in any fellowship, you can see the improvement due to some team work) - but most fellowships (PUGs in particular) need direction to make sure everyone is using the same tactics, and understands what's happening / going to happen...

Another serious point, which has been mentioned above, but I feel needs reiterating, is that you must let the Guardian pull, unless he asks the hunter to pull a target for him. Our aggro skills are such that we really need to be the focus of attention at outset (unless prepared for it), and then our skills work to keep hold of the aggro. It's far more difficult to take the aggro away from someone (I try and keep my 'shout' skill ready for if the Minstrel takes aggro after a big group heal / from adds (assuming there's more than one mob in the fight). (Tanking solo elites is far different from the usual fight though - and I doubt I'd complain about someone sneaking into Strength stance once the mob is down to 70-80% of morale :D)

[Elisar]

Speaking as someone who's main is a Guardian, and who's primary alt is a hunter, I'm well aware of both sides of the equation.. I've found most hunters respond well to being asked to switch to endurance or precision stance - I only get snippy when they start sulking/refusing.. ;)
well, its bad thing that you have to ASK hunters to switch to endurance :/
i have never been in fellowship with any other stance on (precision maybe if mobs were higher lvl than me - when i went with lvl 48 to balad guralad, but tank was lvl50 so i couldn't take agro from him even if i wanted to) but endurance is must have in fellowships for hunters when there is tank around.
if there isn't tank im just using strength because i will take agro anyway so its better to be done quickly with them.

[Macdui]

Didn't this used to be a sticky?

[zimoo]

Endurance isn't a must have in fellowships. I never pull aggro from any guardian in precision stance unless I'm trying to. If I just sit there right from the start spamming swift bow/penetrating shot then I might need endurance stance, but I don't do that so I'm fine with precision. Plus I struggle to have the right amount of focus up when I'm not using precision.

[Llewrend]

I only use strength stance nowadays, even removed other stances from quickslots. I see little point using any other stances. Not even in Helegrod, I just equip Bow of the Righteous, wind-rider bow chant and make use of LMs and FMs if needed. I never (almost obviously, but still very, very rarely) unintentionally pull mobs from the guardian. I tend to kill adds and the weakest enemies first, only shooting occasionally the boss (if that happens to be the situation) with quick shot for snare, barbed arrow for dot and sometimes a critical or two with light oil for the miss debuff.

But that's just my style.

[Larinson]

It's useful information for some, though the tone is a little patronising - something it seems we hunters have to get used to.

[Ellandess]

Good thread and some very good posts on here too. Interesting to hear how the usage of stances is pretty much mentioned by everyone but there is no real focus on the usage of stances and their true purpose.

Just in case there is someone reading this that hasn't got a hunter, a quick recap on the stances and also the important effect it has on your Quick Shot:

- Strength Stance: increases ranged damage, bow skills cost more power and generates more threat. Quick shot reduces targets movement speed.

- Precision Stance: reduces the chance that the mob will dodge or block your shot and increases your accuracy. Quick shot has a higher chance of critting.

- Endurance Stance: reduces the cost of all bow shots, reduces the threat you generate from bow skills. Quick shot reduces your threat on mob hit.

There is a point to each of these stances. The whole reason in having three options is that you can control your damage, power cost, accuracy and threat more than you could without them. Quite frankly, keeping your hunter in one stance all of the time is not only boring as hell but demonstrates a lack of control of the class.

There is no right or wrong way to play a hunter of course, I'm sure each of you that enjoy the class have your own unique ways of doing it. But here are a few things that I make use of:

- When soloing, I will stay in Strength Stance all of the time.

Damage is increased of course, but the effect on Quick Shot is very handy.

Opening with a Quick Shot on a melee mob means it will take them a lot longer to get to you, so you can fire off some of those longer-to-activate shots before he gets there.

When attacking a linked pair of mobs, lay a trap and fire a Quick Shot to open at one, that mob will get to your trap last (because of movement speed debuff) and pretty much guarantee you a successful split.

When fighting a beastie, and you use your shout to send them running, fire off a Quick Shot when they are furthest away from you so that when the fear stops, they will take longer to get back to you.

- In fellowships, I switch between stances all of the time, depending on what I want to achieve.

1. Running out of power? Switch to Endurance Stance, power conservation is it's best asset really.
2. Mob needs to drop fast? Switch to Strength Stance, can't beat the extra boom, but do be ready to switch to Endurance and spam Quick Shot if you get aggro.
3. I pulled aggro from the tank? Switch to Endurance and spam Quick Shot...you're actively reducing your threat by doing this and doing damage at the same time.
4. Minstrel has aggro? Absolutely switch to Strength and get the mob off him. I'd rather give the minstrel a chance to heal me without interrupts than for a total wipe.
5. Mob starts to run from the group? Switch to Strength and zap a Quick Shot up his trousers, he'll run slower allowing the melee PCs to keep up with him no problem.
6. Someone 'shouts' at a mob to fear it? Again, Strength Stance and zap a Quick Shot, it'll still be feared, but a) it won't run so far as to aggro other mobs and b) when it comes out of fear, it will run at you and not the minstrel.

I'm sure there are more, but can't think of them right now.

The comment about not pulling by the way, I don't agree with. A well-played hunter actually has more control over his threat/aggro generation than any other class. Single mob pulls are easy, auto-shot to pull in Endurance Stance and spam a couple of Quick Shots - because of the stance, you are reducing your threat the whole time and by the time the mob gets to your group, he should have totally forgotten you are there.

As I said, it's not the gospel, just a few suggestions.

[Stealthon]

HUnters have nothing to prove and should stop apologising to these other classes.

I've played in groups with tanks who wouldn't know what threat management was if it bit them on the bum. I've also played with a Mincer that was a complete waste of space and caused more trouble than it was worth.

We Hunters learn to play our class the way it should be played, the other classes can do us the honour of making an effort with theirs instead of blaming the hunter when they can't hold aggro and the Hunter isn't even using specials (yes, that happened) or pulling when they're supposed to be the Healer (also happened - see somewhat humourous post about it...)

Hunters - hold your heads up high and stop grovelling to Grauniads and Mincers - you know it makes sense :D

Spot the BAD Hunter!

I reccomend you go read the full on guides there are for Minstrel and Guardian classes.

[Ketten]

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. No disrespect to the hunter community at all, but I've found that there is a significant portion of it that seems to have little idea of how 'threat' works.

I think a good thing to add here is that I have asked many to 'Assist' me, and they have had no idea what I mean. 'Assisting' basically means targetting the same mob/monster that another player is targetting.

In short, this will generally mean hitting the same target as the tank or designated offtank (a second tank, looking after additional mobs). As others have said here, once a pull is made and you have paused to allow time for the tank to make sure mobs are settled on him - we're not talking hours, just a few seconds will usually be enough - damage classes should almost always 'Assist' and open fire on the tank or offtanks target.

If you do this, groups of mobs will go down much smoother and also much faster, you will be able to do *more* damage because of it.

There are two three (!) ways to Assist in LotRO:

1. The default key to Assist a player is 'F'. Just target the player you wish to Assist, using the fellowship unit frames (health bars etc) and press F. You will now be Assisting that player. Some people are likely have rebound F to another function, but you can bind Assist to another key using your Keybinding options menu.

2. On the end of each of the fellowship unit frames is a small round 'button', click this and again, you will Assist that player.

3. (Added from advice by Daraen)
Enable skill forwarding, just keep the Guardian selected and you'll attack the same target he is. You do have to switch targets with a fellowship manoeuvre however.


Also, to reitterate, if you do pull aggro for any reason - just run to the tank. If we do not have to run around after you, we will still be blocking (and thus able to Shield Taunt) and can easily take anything that you bring to us, from you. The worst thing you can do is to run away from us or just stand there continuing to shoot. As someone else said, popping a trap down between you and your tank is also a good safeguard and will generally be much appreciated.

Just thought of something else too. LoS!

LoS is Line of Sight. Ranged mobs can only shoot you if you're standing in their line of sight. If you're not in sight they'll generally move toward you or try to broadside you - both of which bring them nearer to your fellowship and thus easier to pick up.

To tank a ranged mob, it's often dificult to run straight into them for several reasons. The most annoying being that many will try to run away, trying to keep distance and will sometimes run straight into additional packs. Which is obviously not good.

So whenever you see your tank bow pull, run away and behind something, they're not being mental or lagging, it's so that they can manouvre the target/s into a position that will make them safer and easier to tank. It's important that you do not do anything to cause threat on this target (apart from any crowd control going on) as they'll stop moving and just starting twanging things at you instead.

Hope some of this helps someone, thanks.

[Dalin]

Three ways.

Enable skill forwarding, just keep the Guardian selected and you'll attack the same target he is. You do have to switch targets with a fellowship manoeuvre however.

[Ketten]

Three ways.

Enable skill forwarding, just keep the Guardian selected and you'll attack the same target he is. You do have to switch targets with a fellowship manoeuvre however.

Didn't know about that, cheers Daraen! I'll edit.

[Delbo]

Enable skill forwarding, just keep the Guardian selected and you'll attack the same target he is. You do have to switch targets with a fellowship manoeuvre however.

Only one major caveat with targetting through someone else - make sure that they are aware that you're doing it. If they tab through targets you may watch one of your shots stray off and pull another group, something you wont want and wont win you any friends as much as you plead some innocence.

Also, check to see if you have a main assist, if you do then target their targets and not the guardians. Its important to bring down adds as fast as possible (but not always of course, depends on the bosses :p).

[Brannor McThife]

I am so putting this thread's link in my quick Cut 'n Paste notepad txt file.

I'm growing tired of seeing L40+ Hunters who don't understand aggro, or who are simply incapable of looking around them for patrolling mobs and then just stand there with it hitting them, instead of bringing it "to the fray" as such where everyone's AoE attacks and the guardian's AoE taunt can be used.

Some days I feel like just standing there and whipping out my bow and shooting the elite mob that's pounding on the hunter - due to the hunter believing he must pull - and when he is defeated and bitches about me not taunting it off him...simply saying:

"Since you wanted to tank, I figured I'd give shooting with a bow a try"...

-G

[nicbass]

I am so putting this thread's link in my quick Cut 'n Paste notepad txt file.

I'm growing tired of seeing L40+ Hunters who don't understand aggro, or who are simply incapable of looking around them for patrolling mobs and then just stand there with it hitting them, instead of bringing it "to the fray" as such where everyone's AoE attacks and the guardian's AoE taunt can be used.



You need to understand how to play a hunter more. There's such a thing as focus, which we need for our more powerful shots. When we move we lose focus which, since the nerf to the trait that buildsthis up, is not a good idea in the middle of a big fight.

The fact of the matter is that, due to the numbers of people who like to play solo there are a lot of people who don't know how to play their class: LM's who can't control their pets, burgs who don't mez (or enrage mobs into attacking the mins) & many tanks who can't hold aggro (& are scared to open doors) or don't use Protection on Minstrels etc. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw that skill used by anybody, but our Kins main tank.

Hunters always seem to be the scapegoat - sometimes it's accurate, but in many other cases people need to look closer to home

[Angmor]

Very useful post... anyway, how is it possible people still need to be told about some really BASIC tactics that were obvious back in 1998 (eq)? Are there that many newbies (from a MMORPG perspective) in the game?

[nicbass]

There are quite a few - I'm one for a start.

[Brannor McThife]

many tanks who can't hold aggro (& are scared to open doors) or don't use Protection on Minstrels etc. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw that skill used by anybody, but our Kins main tank.

I've been playing tanks (and healers...and most other classes that MMO's offer) since DAoC first came out. So if there's one thing I've learnt, it's to keep the mobs beating on my tank.

More often than not, if there's a champion in the group (and no other guardian) he'll get my protection. Minstrels, LMs and Hunters go out of range (normally) and the stupid skill has to be manually reset before applying again.

The question about hunter focus, like your stance, is, is it really worth the focus to pull a patrol into the fight, onto you, and give the group multiple extra elites to deal with? And if you want to build up focus and go crazy, maybe stand right near the tank so that in the off chance (no chance with me if you're shooting the same mob I'm taunting) that it does turn to you, the guardian isn't wasting time trying to run around and tag mobs. (as you pointed out in your original post).

-G

[nicbass]

I've been playing tanks (and healers...and most other classes that MMO's offer) since DAoC first came out. So if there's one thing I've learnt, it's to keep the mobs beating on my tank.

Fair enough, but I didn't mean you specifically, but tanks in general ,just like you were having a go at Hunters in general

The question about hunter focus, like your stance, is, is it really worth the focus to pull a patrol into the fight, onto you, and give the group multiple extra elites to deal with? And if you want to build up focus and go crazy, maybe stand right near the tank so that in the off chance (no chance with me if you're shooting the same mob I'm taunting) that it does turn to you, the guardian isn't wasting time trying to run around and tag mobs. (as you pointed out in your original post).

-G

Hmm - the real question there is why would you start such a fight without dealing with the patrols first? Especially if they're hitting the hunter first who, more often than not, is behind the front lines. If this is the case, it's likely you've gone past a patrol without taking them out.

Standing next to the tank isn't such a good idea as we're more likely to get hit with AoE attacks ourselves & taking out adds who keep moving (such as the pale folk) is much easier from further back, plus we can keep an eye on the minstrels & LM's if they pull any aggro.

[zimoo]

More often than not, if there's a champion in the group (and no other guardian) he'll get my protection.

So you always group with the 1% of the champion population who don't use fervour religiously? If they have fervour on then the protection is useless, unless perhaps you have the trait.

I always put mine on the minstrel, even if theres another guardian. Reason being I currently have the trait equipped for it, and from experience I find guardians don't like '-10% threat generation' being on them :p

[Felanias]

I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. No disrespect to the hunter community at all, but I've found that there is a significant portion of it that seems to have little idea of how 'threat' works.

I think a good thing to add here is that I have asked many to 'Assist' me, and they have had no idea what I mean. 'Assisting' basically means targetting the same mob/monster that another player is targetting.

Could be because I'm a skilled hunter (ego) but I find most of this thread pretty laughable. :P

Aggro and threat.
Personally I've always used endurance grouped, simple because it's more power effective then anything else and focus was never much of an issue for me, so that reduces my aggro by 20% (yes, got the trait slotted)
Now as far as getting aggro, almost always do I only get aggro in 2 cases.
a)I want to get aggro, or b) whoever was tanking the mob didn't have a lot of aggro on it.
Generally the targets that I choose to aggro are either ranged (no problem there, hunters can tank most ranged) or a stray mob that is hitting something fragile (minstrel most likely), in which case either the tank(s) was already maxed out or wasn't doing an ace job.

Now as far as using assist, I think it's double ironic that a guardian should tell me this.
For one, I've seen a lot of a guardians hitting a mob(couple of mobs), with one or more mobs standing further away near ranged/minstrel (likely making love with the poor minstrel), hunters can have a lot better overview of a battle.
Secondly, a few times I've had to tell people to assist on me, because of that overview and because they don't assist well.
Usually I tend to target the mob with the lowest morale (most tough encounters require fast kills, and lower morale means supposedly more aggro already done), now if I get aggro because of that, it's usually because some else (or someones) didn't assist the tank and started to dps an off target.
Don't go blaming hunters for others fault at assisting. (or if the mob is already to far gone for the tanks stubborness in keeping with the original tanking mob ;))

Actually, I'll add another ironic to that.
Of all people a guardian should know how futile it generally is to assist a tank, because the tank must damage not just one but all targets, and thus switch targets often if only for a short time, to ensure that targets stay on him.


I was just coming here to post this exact same thing. No disrespect to the hunter community at all, but I've found that there is a significant portion of it that seems to have little idea of how 'threat' works.

I think a good thing to add here is that I have asked many to 'Assist' me, and they have had no idea what I mean. 'Assisting' basically means targetting the same mob/monster that another player is targetting.
I've seen a lot of guardians that didn't know about tanking, and a lot of other classes, shrug.

On those last posts about hunters pulling mobs..I've seen melees (mostly the tank) stand and hit a mob with a patrol slowly moving towards them and eventually aggroing them, despite me or others telling the person(s) so many times..lol. Thank god the group is (usually) imba enough to survive the additional mobs.

An interesting point is that tanks never ever waits for a hunter to get focus in the first place. Seems to me that the original poster doesn't know much about hunters. ;)
Most of the things mentioned in pulling require focus, which generally the hunter doesnt get time to get..

Staying alive and managing agro is ALWAYS a higher priority than dealing damage!


I was going to reply with a no to this, but ironically it's true.
You see, in general (in the rare cases it's not so, all the better for me)
as a hunter I tend to spend more time managing mobs aggro (getting them off the minstrel, or someone who's near dead, rooting loose mobs, etc) then I do dpsing. Even when I do dps for some reason I find that it's more often then not on a mob that isn't hitting the tank (or rather, the tank isn't hitting)

So yeah, when making a thread like this, realise 2 things.
1. The very same can be said for healers and tanks as well.
2. Don't play the game for the hunter, if you want to offer advise about what to do or what not to do, excellent, but don't tell people to never use skills and do this and that when there's different ways to approach something.

[nicbass]

So you always group with the 1% of the champion population who don't use fervour religiously? If they have fervour on then the protection is useless, unless perhaps you have the trait.

Good point! I'd completely forgotten about that!